Forums: Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia:
DB Cooper

 

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mark  (D 6108)

Feb 4, 2008, 2:51 PM
Post #26 of 55195 (55825 views)
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Re: [Albert18] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If he came forward he could still be prosecuted. They basically indicted the name "Dan Cooper" so the statute of limitations don't apply. It is a weird legal technicality.

Sort of like indicting John Doe criminals based on DNA profile? I learned something new today. Thanks!

Mark


normiss  (D 28356)

Feb 4, 2008, 3:13 PM
Post #27 of 55195 (55817 views)
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Re: [quade] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

simply change the subject (but call it the same discussion) and move them all to another room?
Crazy


skyjack71

Feb 4, 2008, 7:46 PM
Post #28 of 55195 (55721 views)
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Re: [Albert18] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

The Dan Cooper case is one of the most fascinating crimes of the 20th century. If Cooper's identity was revealed tomorrow, the news would make the front page of newspapers around the world. So I am completely baffled by the hostile reception this discussion has received on this forum. Because of the nature of the crime, a discussion of it belongs on any aviation forum, skydiving forum, and crime forum.
reply]
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Albert18? ? Watch Out they don't like Whuffos here (just kidding) - you said something in your post that gave away your identity - and I could not be more pleased the site got your attention and you have been lofting all along......shows some flexibility in your point of view.

I have new information if you care to contact me - I think you will find this new information ODD. I will say that one of the posters here questioned me about something forcing me to revisit my OLD files(Thank You 377).

From 1997 to 2000 all of my notes were hand written or recorded...I do not usually go back to old information thinking I have been there done that...a few things jumped out at me - some of which I revealed on the locked site...THE most IMPORTANT THING I did not, nor did I reveal it to the FBI.....but, I would love to talk to you about it...I believe you have the resources and capabilities to put a "hook" into this piece of information.

TO ALL POSTERS: Ignore me if you wish, but Duane was Cooper and I will prove it....my energy level is ebbing recently, but I am going to go to WA, MT, ID and OR. I have in the last few days spent endless hours contacting these areas only to re-affirm that I allowed myself to stray away from where I should have focused. The old saying "you can't see the forest for the trees" - oh, how true.

ASSISTANCE NEEDED: Need to locate Edna (probably deceased) and / or daughter born in 1946/47 and given the name Zona. This woman would hail from the N.W. - WA, ID, OR or MT.....she may or may not have taken the name of Weber or aka used by Duane between 1945-1951. She may have known him as Wayne L. Weber Nickname "Dusty"

Edna would have been living in ID, Mt. OR or WA in 1944 - 1947 when she knew Duane and became pregnant. She gave birth to a daughter she named Zona .... Duane had mentioned Mx and Tx in relation to this daughter..may have been when he last saw her. He told he that the last time he saw her she was 9 yrs old. which would have been right after he was parolded from Folsom. in March of 1957... I believe that Edna may have family in Mx or Tx..

Somewhere out there is a sixty yr. old woman who told her father when she was 9 - she never wanted to see him again - (the last time she saw him.) He obviously followed her life - because he mention an attempt to see her between 1969 and 1971...my memory has never let me remember what he said in regard to that. This would have been when he found out that he had a hereditary kidney disease. She would be genetically disposed.

If anyone has an idea how I can chase this down please let me know...IN my opinion the FBI should have some notes on his relatives while he was in San Quentin and Folsom....but the sister is listed on the records I have..and not a wife. Family only knows this wife and daug existed but never acknowledge them as Duane in a letter to his mother requested Edna attend his father's funeral on his behalf...bother and sister had no interests in the child or her mother.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Feb 4, 2008, 7:49 PM)


Albert18

Feb 5, 2008, 7:21 AM
Post #29 of 55195 (55599 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't the guy calling people Whuffos the same person who thinks Cooper died because he wasn't wearing the right shoes? Holy Fright!

People like Clint Eastwood and Rambo don't just exist in the movies. There are people out there with ice water in their veins, they are as tough as nails, and they laugh at danger.

A guy who can sit calmly and politely, in a business suit, while the plane is on the ground in Seattle and law enforcement is swarming all around, probably isn't going to start crying when he gets a little wind in his face.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 5, 2008, 7:30 AM
Post #30 of 55195 (55591 views)
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Re: [Albert18] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

People like Clint Eastwood and Rambo don't just exist in the movies. There are people out there with ice water in their veins, they are as tough as nails, and they laugh at danger.


In reply to:

As I'm a complete stranger to danger...I got just one question:

How do I get all this coffee off the keyboard! LaughLaughLaugh


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 5, 2008, 8:20 AM
Post #31 of 55195 (55571 views)
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Re: [Albert18] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Isn't the guy calling people Whuffos the same person who thinks Cooper died because he wasn't wearing the right shoes? Holy Fright!

I'm one of those who think that if Cooper was wearing slip-on loafers when he walked down the stairs, he wasn't wearing loafers when he arrived at the surface.

Perhaps one of the experienced jumpers would like to contribute something on the likelihood of an injury-free barefoot round landing.

I don't recall calling anyone a whuffo lately.

Mark


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 5, 2008, 8:28 AM
Post #32 of 55195 (55565 views)
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Re: [mark] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps one of the experienced jumpers would like to contribute something on the likelihood of an injury-free barefoot round landing.

In reply to:

I have a bunch of barefoot P.C. jumps, and at that time my exit weight was 230...of course that was on flat, grass covered ground, during he day...and I was 18 not 35-40.

And I sure wouldn't want to walk around bare footed much after. Wink


Guru312  (C 6814)

Feb 5, 2008, 10:16 AM
Post #33 of 55195 (55530 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And I sure wouldn't want to walk around bare footed much after. Wink

And I don't much care to tip toe around this thread worrying that my humor will be misconstrued as personal attacks by our moderator.

So...I'm done posting here and I've decided to not start a DB-centered website.

I am out of here.

But don't forget: I am not DB Cooper.


Glitch  (D 10834)

Feb 5, 2008, 10:52 AM
Post #34 of 55195 (55514 views)
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Re: [mark] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm one of those who think that if Cooper was wearing slip-on loafers when he walked down the stairs, he wasn't wearing loafers when he arrived at the surface.
Not necessarily, I've made several dives wearing flip-flops (without a tow-stow) and deck shoessand not lost them... so I find it hard to believe that its a certainty that he lost his loafers... YMMV

In reply to:
Perhaps one of the experienced jumpers would like to contribute something on the likelihood of an injury-free barefoot round landing.
I've had one of these... stood up a 26' Phantom barefooted on a cut-away once upon a time. It's possible... I was 20-something, in great shape, and damn near immortal at the time though... Tongue


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Feb 5, 2008, 11:05 AM
Post #35 of 55195 (55508 views)
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Re: [Glitch] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

It occurs to me that now the leading suspect based on the ability to skydive barefooted is currently Roger Ponce de Leon. Wink


(This post was edited by quade on Feb 5, 2008, 11:51 AM)


peckerhead

Feb 5, 2008, 11:12 AM
Post #36 of 55195 (55500 views)
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Re: [quade] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It occurs to me that now that the leading suspect based on the ability to skydive barefooted is currently Roger Ponce de Leon. Wink

Except Roger wears gloves.....

Did Cooper wear gloves?


Orange1  (B 2638)

Feb 5, 2008, 12:07 PM
Post #37 of 55195 (55483 views)
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Re: [Glitch] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not necessarily, I've made several dives wearing flip-flops (without a tow-stow) and deck shoessand not lost them... so I find it hard to believe that its a certainty that he lost his loafers... YMMV

In reply to:
Perhaps one of the experienced jumpers would like to contribute something on the likelihood of an injury-free barefoot round landing.
I've had one of these... stood up a 26' Phantom barefooted on a cut-away once upon a time. It's possible... I was 20-something, in great shape, and damn near immortal at the time though... Tongue

So, Glitch. Where were you on that night of infamy? Laugh


Albert18

Feb 5, 2008, 12:27 PM
Post #38 of 55195 (55476 views)
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Re: [mark] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

My point about the shoes is that this was not a skydiving event, it was a crime. And this was not a minor crime that involved a few deputy sheriffs or local cops. Cooper activated the FBI, the FAA, the Air Force, the National Guard, local law enforcement and who knows who else. He would have known this and so had to make decisions accordingly. People look at how Cooper was dressed, the fact he didn't bring his own equipment, and his decision making and assume he was inexperienced or didn't know what he was getting into or was flying by the seat of his pants. This may be true but I see a different possibilty.

Maybe there were some very valid reasons for his decision making.

He had to limit the number of eyeballs on him as a very accurate description could doom him. My guess is he did a very good job here. This is the reason for the business suit. Sure it would have been better to show up for the flight wearing boots, hunting clothes, goggles, and a helmet, but he had to blend in. Notice how he started the hijacking. The passengers didn't know the airplane was being hijacked and so they weren't eyeballing him. Then he got them off the plane.

He had to limit the physical evidence. There is virtually no physical evidence except the tie and my guess is the tie was an oversight on his part. He took his hijacking note back and he took the briefcase with him. For his comfort it would have been much better to leave the briefcase but it would have been a treasure trove of physical evidence for the FBI. I believe this is also the reason he didn't bring his own gear. This gear isn't something you pick up at a Kmart and it would have been a disaster for him to bring his own equipment and then have the FBI get their hands on it. I assume he was going to ditch the gear upon landing and gear they provided couldn't be traced back to him.

He asked to have the stairs down at takeoff and it is concluded from this that he meant to jump soon after takeoff. I doubt this. I think he wanted the stairs down because they were his only exit point. Sitting on the runway in Seattle he was basically blind as to what was going on around him. He had to be worried they could do something to those stairs from the outside that would prevent them from being opened after the plane was airborne. Being on the ground in Seattle was his most vulnerable time. If he couldn't get the stairs down it would require another landing somewhere and his risk goes sky high. If the stairs are down at takeoff he knows there won't be a problem.

Cooper wasn't specific about the gear he was given or the flight path. I think Cooper made a logical decision that this was going to be a complex crime. The more he micro-managed the crime, the greater his risk. I think Cooper highlighted key areas and for the rest he decided he would go with the flow. The more he dictates the more info he gives the FBI.

The weather was bad and a negative for him. The weather that night was not only not a negative but was essential for his success. I assume he picked that date because of the weather. The weather kept the authorities off his back until the next day.

He boards the plane in Portland, flies to Seattle, then jumps when the plane comes back towards Portland. From this people assume he jumped blind. I doubt this. I assume he wanted first hand knowledge of the weather between Portland and Seattle and he knew the plane would be coming down this corridor after it left Seattle. We do not know if the pilot had suggested flying to Reno via Boise, he would have accepted that. I think he knew from the southerly direction and elevation he would be flying over the area Bill Walton made famous. My guess is he wanted to land somewhere on the compass around Portland.

I think Cooper knew any chink in his armor and the FBI would get him. Because of this I think he took meticulous steps to limit his exposure. For example I assume he got to the Portland airport in such a way nobody would remember him arriving. That means no taxi. So did he live in Portland or did he just set up a temporary headquarters?

What I can't figure out is how he planned on blending in after the landing. After a major crime like this, anybody seen strolling up a road, walking across a field, walking off a road into a gas station wearing a suit and having wind blown hair, could raise suspicions. There must have been a ground plan. And did he have a chance to use that ground plan?


377  (F 666)

Feb 5, 2008, 12:45 PM
Post #39 of 55195 (55462 views)
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Re: [Albert18] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

Ground plan? Good point. I think McCoy took a taxi, but that option wasnt available to Cooper. I have no idea how Cooper planned to exit the landing and get transportation back to civilization without arousing suspicion. That is a real serious puzzler. Normally I'd say there had to be a preplanned connection with someone on the ground, but I cannot see how they could coordinate meeting up with each other Remember, this was 1971, doubt if Cooper was carrying a mobile phone. This is really a hard problem given the uncertainty as to where Cooper would have landed. Readers: come up with a likely Cooper ground plan post landing. How do you get from a wilderness jump (or farmland jump) and blend back in when there is so much news circulating? Every guy who looked wet and disheveled was a suspect that night.


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 5, 2008, 12:46 PM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Feb 5, 2008, 1:16 PM
Post #40 of 55195 (55450 views)
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Re: [quade] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

could you remind me again why the original thread was locked?
Crazy


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 5, 2008, 1:23 PM
Post #41 of 55195 (52769 views)
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Re: [377] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Readers: come up with a likely Cooper ground plan post landing. How do you get from a wilderness jump (or farmland jump) and blend back in when there is so much news circulating? Every guy who looked wet and disheveled was a suspect that night.

Plan A: Jump shortly after take-off (which is why you'd want the stairs down right away), descend gently into the suburbs, stash the parachute, knock on any door and explain about car trouble. If James Bond could peel off a wet suit to reveal an unwrinkled dinner jacket (Dr No? Thunderball?), then how hard could it be to pretend to be a businessman just looking for a lift?

Plan B: Same as plan A, but later in the flight, just requires a longer walk to a farmhouse. Of course he would be wet and disheveled. It's not easy changing a tire in the rain, or trying to get your car started after it died.

Plan A counts on being in a populated area to blend in sooner. Plan B counts on the Feds not knowing when he jumped and having to search the entire area between Seattle and Mexico (or Reno).

I'm not suggesting either plan would be a good plan, just that they are plausible.

Mark


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Feb 5, 2008, 1:24 PM
Post #42 of 55195 (52768 views)
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Re: [normiss] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
could you remind me again why the original thread was locked?
Crazy

We don't mind them discussing the event.
We DO mind them making personal attacks.

While it's entirely likely that you suspect one of the individuals currently posting is doing so on a second account AND while that is clearly against the rules of this web site, as long as he behaves himself AND I can't actually link his IP address to previously banned IP addresses, then I'm slightly limited in what I can do to him as long as he remains civil; which up to this point he has.

Trust me . . . I'm monitoring the situation.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Feb 5, 2008, 1:31 PM
Post #43 of 55195 (52756 views)
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Re: [Albert18] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My point about the shoes is that this was not a skydiving event, it was a crime.

And absolutely no proof whatsoever that it was anything much more than a crime of opportunity.

If it had been as meticulously planned as some suggest, certainly he would have brought his own parachute. At the time there was no such thing as a bag inspection. It would have been trivial for him to carry it with him. Also, he would have worn appropriate footwear.

Can a skydive on a round parachute be made in the middle of the night without shoes? Sure. Would anybody in their right mind PLAN it that way? No. That's just silly.


(This post was edited by quade on Feb 5, 2008, 1:31 PM)


377  (F 666)

Feb 5, 2008, 2:28 PM
Post #44 of 55195 (52727 views)
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Re: [mark] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

The so called "bomb" he showed to Tina proves that there was some preflight planning. Wouldn't shoes and warm clothing be part of any rational jump plan in that weather and over that terrain? I cannot imagine a paratrooper or skydiver choosing to exit in loafers or slipons, IF that was what he was actually wearing.

I am beginning to wonder if this might have been a first jump (or first freefall jump) and possibly ended in a fatality. If it was a first jump or first freefall, an unstable 200 mph exit at night with totally unfamiliar gear could be VERY disorienting. I can imagine a plausable no pull scenario. He might have even pulled but was unable to dislodge the pins from the cones in a very tightly packed NB6 rig. If experienced skydivers go in with no pulls from cutaways in sunny weather, why is it so unlikely that Cooper might have panicked and gone in? I am keeping an open mind and actually hope that Cooper survived the jump.

They found some money, the 727 door placard, but not one other thing that went out the back door of that 727. No briefcase, no Cooper, no canopy, no rig. I sometimes wonder if Cooper died, was found with some of the money, and buried with everything but the cash by someone who has kept their mouth shut for many years and will die with the secret. I think you could have spent the bills without detection if you did it in small amounts mixed with other money. Perhaps you could do it at a casino with even less caution.


skyjack71

Feb 5, 2008, 2:44 PM
Post #45 of 55195 (52716 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

What did you do? Laugh so hard you spilled your coffee? ...Only thing you can do is buy a new keyboard...and stop laughing....he he he.


skyjack71

Feb 5, 2008, 2:49 PM
Post #46 of 55195 (52706 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems like the FBI and everyone else is entirely ignoring the fact that Tina said Cooper was wearing ankle shoes - why would she use that teminology?

A loafer is a loafer and is never referred to as an ankle shoe...Ankle shoes - the only referrence for this is ankle boot. A dress boot that comes to the ankle. For God's sake someone think. Please think - she spent the most time - she said ankle shoe - that is NOT a loafer.


mccurley  (E 663)

Feb 5, 2008, 2:50 PM
Post #47 of 55195 (52704 views)
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Re: [377] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I sometimes wonder if Cooper died, was found with some of the money, and buried with everything but the cash by someone who has kept their mouth shut for many years

I have though this was highly plausable for quite some time. Infact I feel this to be the best theory put forward.
As to sending the money, how often do they check serial numbers? How many bills never get checked?


(This post was edited by mccurley on Feb 5, 2008, 2:50 PM)


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 5, 2008, 2:56 PM
Post #48 of 55195 (52702 views)
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Re: [377] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The so called "bomb" he showed to Tina proves that there was some preflight planning. Wouldn't shoes and warm clothing be part of any rational jump plan in that weather and over that terrain? I cannot imagine a paratrooper or skydiver choosing to exit in loafers or slipons, IF that was what he was actually wearing.

The "bomb" proves that he figured out how to get started, but he wouldn't be the first bank robber type to be hazy on the getaway details.

Like you, I can't imagine a paratrooper or skydiver exiting ill-equipped, but I and others have suggested that an Air Force loadmaster would be familiar with pilot emergency rigs and tailgate exits without knowing much about wind blast, opening shock, or landings.

In reply to:
They found some money, the 727 door placard, but not one other thing that went out the back door of that 727. No briefcase, no Cooper, no canopy, no rig.

From my experience looking for lost parachutes, it's not hard for me to believe that searchers would miss the canopy. And if they could miss the canopy, they could miss the rig, the body, and the money.

============================

On to other things:

How certain are we of the radar track, given that no tapes exist?

Was the aircraft using VOR navigation? I ask because unless you are exactly on course, the needle drifts left or right when you get close to the VOR transmitter. If that happens, the usual technique is to maintain heading until abeam the VOR, then fly the new course until a reliable indication is reestablished. If the crew is busy, how far off the airway centerline could they be?

With regard to the suspected time of exit, in an era before GPS synchronization of time signals, how certain are we that the airplane time (on the pilot's watch, the 1st officer's watch, the instrument panel?) corresponds to ATC/radar time?

Mark


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 5, 2008, 3:00 PM
Post #49 of 55195 (52696 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Seems like the FBI and everyone else is entirely ignoring the fact that Tina said Cooper was wearing ankle shoes - why would she use that teminology?

A loafer is a loafer and is never referred to as an ankle shoe...Ankle shoes - the only referrence for this is ankle boot. A dress boot that comes to the ankle. For God's sake someone think. Please think - she spent the most time - she said ankle shoe - that is NOT a loafer.

Ckret posted this in the previous thread:
"Mucklow spent hours with him and described his shoes in detail (something a woman might notice) even down to the grain of the leather. She was certain to state they were slip on's. There is nothing in the investigation that points to Mucklow not being reliable in her statement so I give it weight. Of course that is different than actual fact but I do believe Cooper had slip ons."

Mark


SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Feb 5, 2008, 3:04 PM
Post #50 of 55195 (52694 views)
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Re: [377] DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
....... I can imagine a plausable no pull scenario. He might have even pulled but was unable to dislodge the pins from the cones in a very tightly packed NB6 rig. .....
In reply to:

I don't know of any problems with the NB6 emergency rig. If it had a history of hard pulls it would be known about and they would not have been in common use. I think this is an example of someone suggesting it as a possibility earlier in this thread and then it becoming a fact.


In reply to:
They found some money, the 727 door placard, but not one other thing that went out the back door of that 727.

Hey Ckret, what was the location where they found the door placard?

.


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