Forums: Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia:
DB Cooper

 

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Orange1  (B 2638)

Feb 15, 2008, 9:10 AM
Post #176 of 54587 (42077 views)
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Re: [377] Cooper vs. the Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Believe it or not they had pretty good autopilots 65 years ago in WW2 bombers such as the B 24. It is very fatiguing hand flying planes with unboosted controls for hours and hours. Autopilots really helped on the the raids from the UK to Germany. We might be speaking German today if not for Mr. Norden (computing bombsight) and Mr Sperry (gyro controlled autopilot). The Norden bombsight and the Sperry autopilot actually worked together on the final run to the target. The bombardier flew the plane through bombsight generated correction inputs sent to the autopilot by wire.

wow... now THAT was interesting!! Cool




Guru312  (C 6814)

Feb 16, 2008, 7:40 AM
Post #178 of 54587 (41966 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Cooper vs. the Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey Bernie - how did you get a copyright icon? Not that it protects anything

I did it using the Word "Insert-Symbol" menu and then "Copy/Paste" into the DZ.com thread. You can Copy the symbol from my post and paste it into your posts.

There are quite a few misconceptions about copyrights. Take a look at this: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

Remember that this is an international forum and therefore copyright law gets more confusing. I've been unable to find an official statement regarding who owns our words on DZ.com. I disagree with Quade's comment which is why I posted my two-line poem.

By the way, my dictionary is bigger than airtwardo's dictionary.Tongue


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 16, 2008, 11:42 AM
Post #179 of 54587 (41936 views)
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Re: [Guru312] Cooper vs. the Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

By the way, my dictionary is bigger than airtwardo's dictionary. Tongue

In reply to:

Ya know...they do make 'em without pictures for every word! Angelic


low_pull1

Feb 17, 2008, 9:46 AM
Post #180 of 54587 (41863 views)
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Re: [377] Cooper Coda [In reply to] Can't Post

"they find some of the bills in the original bundles and the door placard from the 727, but NONE of the big stuff (canopy, rig, briefcase, dummy reserve, body, etc)."

maybe weber??


Guru312  (C 6814)

Feb 17, 2008, 3:48 PM
Post #181 of 54587 (41831 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Cooper vs. the Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
By the way, my dictionary is bigger than airtwardo's dictionary. Tongue

In reply to:

Ya know...they do make 'em without pictures for every word! Angelic

I'm sure they do but my illustrated dictionary shows a picture of my dictionary next to your dictionary and mine is almost twice as big as yours.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 17, 2008, 5:00 PM
Post #182 of 54587 (41816 views)
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Re: [Guru312] Cooper vs. the Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
By the way, my dictionary is bigger than airtwardo's dictionary. Tongue

In reply to:

Ya know...they do make 'em without pictures for every word! Angelic

I'm sure they do but my illustrated dictionary shows a picture of my dictionary next to your dictionary and mine is almost twice as big as yours.

So...yours has pictures, but is to big to hold up with one hand huh? Angelic

It's next to Useless! Sly




377  (F 666)

Feb 18, 2008, 6:32 AM
Post #184 of 54587 (41749 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Cooper vs. the Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

" He was bantering this same way with someone on the CB - regarding this handle."

Just how involved in CB radio was Duane? What kind of gear did he have? How long had he been involved with CB radio?


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 18, 2008, 7:36 PM
Post #185 of 54587 (41690 views)
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Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In Forums: Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia: D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking (the old thread), I asked (in post # 1467):
Ckret,
I’m doing some research, and there is something I need to know.
Did Cooper request V-23 or did the pilot(s) select V-23?
I have seen so much stuff (mostly on the Internet) in the last 20 years that either downright state that Cooper requested/demanded V-23 or implies it. I’ve also seen information that says the pilots selected V-23 because of the low altitude demanded by Cooper and the original destination demand (Mexico).
Also, did he state a location in Mexico in his “Fly this plane to _____” demand?

Ckret responded in Post #1473:
Neither requested Victor 23. The pilots and NWA flight operations wanted to fly out to the coast and where waiting for clearance to do so. It was not until just before takeoff that they were cleared through Sacramento via Victor 23.
Cooper originally stated they could land anywhere in Mexico but after discussion he agreed to Reno. Of course we know now Cooper could have cared less because he wasn't going to be on the plane anywhere near any of those locations.

Also, in Post #1607 Ckret said:
Cooper never requested a flight path, he never requested an update from the flight crew and no one reported he even had on a watch that he could have timed wheels up. Also, V 23 is not the only low altitude route south from Seatac.
Conclusion, Cooper had little idea where he was when he jumped.

I have been doing some research (for about 3 weeks) and I am ready to state “Cooper knew EXACTLY where he was when he jumped”. It may (at first glance) appear that he made no demands on the pilots or flight operations, but actually he did. But, he did it in the way a magician uses re-direction to make a person (victim) think he/she has made a “free-will” choice, but instead is “forced into the choice” that the magician wants.

I have a large amount of data to back up my assertions, but I will only post what the members of this board want to see. So, if you need proof, ask for it. Otherwise, I assume that you will accept that I have carefully considered my position on this. This will keep me from clogging the board with maps and Microsoft Word documents that most people are not interested in.

Here’s what I have done, and some of my assertions:

Cooper’s Demands:
Cooper told the flight crew he had a bomb and showed them something that made them believe it was true.
He asked to be flown to Mexico (with no particular destination). This has been interpreted by most to be an “un-demand", but remember this fact: All of Mexico is East of SEA-TAC. I will rephrase this to put it in a better context for this discussion. There is NO PART of Mexico that is West of SEA-TAC. Therefore the nearest destination that is in Mexico is the Gen Abelardo L. Rodriguez International Airport just across the border from Brown Field Municipal Airport in Chula Vista, California.
He demanded an unusual (for a cross country flight) configuration that would limit range before refueling (due to a fuel burn that was 2.2 times greater than normal) and what terrain the plane could fly over. Such as flaps at 15 deg, airspeed less that 200 statute mph, aft stairs lowered, and DO NOT EXCEED 10,000 feet MSL).

Available Routes (See Attached file “Four-Low-Altitude-Routes-ANN RED”:
As Ckret says V-23 is not the only low-level Victor Airway South from SEA-TAC. Yes there is one other V-27 (the coastal route), and if you choose to go East then South there are two more. I will list all the available routes and some characteristics of each (below I have given them the #s 1 – 4 for convenience):
NOTE: MEA = Minimum Enroute Altitude; MOCA = Minimum Obstruction Clearance Altitude; and OROCA = Off Route Obstruction Clearance Altitude. The least important of these is OROCA because it is only an issue if you are off the Victor Airway.

DATA For Victor Two-Seven (Route #1)
Total Track Length is 1243 Statute Miles.
Highest MEA is 8000 feet Mean Sea Level (MSL)
Highest MOCA is 5200 feet MSL.
Highest OROCA is 11,100.

DATA For Victor Two-Three (Route #2)
Total Track Length is 1114 Statute Miles.
Highest MEA is 10,000 feet Mean Sea Level (MSL)
Highest MOCA is 9400 feet MSL.
Highest OROCA is 16,300.

DATA For Victor Four and Victor Two-Five (Route #3)
Total Track Length is 1220 Statute Miles.
Highest MEA is 12,000 feet Mean Sea Level (MSL)
Highest MOCA is 9600 feet MSL.
Highest OROCA is 16,700.

DATA For Victor Four, Two-One, and Two-Three (Route #4)
Total Track Length is 1414 Statute Miles.
Highest MEA is 10,300 feet Mean Sea Level (MSL)
Highest MOCA is 9000 feet MSL.
Highest OROCA is 16,700.

Eliminating Routes:
Routes #3 and #4 can be eliminated without further discussion because the track length is long and (more importantly) the MEA is over 10,000 ft MSL. If you have a crazy man in the cabin, he says he has a bomb, and you believe him, you aren’t going to travel at an altitude higher than he specifies (the bomb may explode at higher than 10,000 ft), plus, you have the aft stairs open (unpressurized) so you need to be on oxygen at above 10,000.

That leaves Victor Two-Seven and Victor Two-Three.

Victor Two-Seven looks the best with regard to altitude, but there are two problems with it. First, it is 129 statute miles longer (I think over-water flight requires 1 hour reserve fuel rather than the standard 30 min, but I didn’t include this in my calculations due to uncertainty). Also, you lose a “degree of freedom” by flying on the coast. In other words, in an emergency you can only go east to find an emergency landing site (on land) and surely a nut-case with a bomb might precipitate an emergency.

That leaves Victor 23 as the only “real choice”. Cooper knew that given the parameters for flight the only viable Victor Airway Southeast (Remember Mexico is Southeast of SEA-TAC) was V-23. So, even thought Ckret is right to say “Cooper never requested a flight path” he is wrong in his assumption; “Cooper had little idea where he was when he jumped”.

The flight parameters Cooper gave the crew when he requested the vague destination of “Mexico” guaranteed they would take V-23. When the plan changed to Reno as a re-fuel destination, it fit right into V-23 as the only route.

Could the flight have been vectored by the FAA instead of following the Victor airways? Yes, of course, but, if you were going to direct a 727 flying at 10,000 feet, with the aft stairs down, flaps at 15 deg, and flying just above stall-speed, are you going to “wing it” or follow an established route that is cleared for low-altitude IFR flight.

So, now he knows he is going to be following V-23. All he needs is (even a cheap) compass. The plane leaves SEATAC flying a heading of 178 deg. It maintains that heading until the MALAY Fix, where it turns 27 deg left (his body may not sense it, but the compass will). Then the flight proceeds to the Battle Ground VORTAC (BTG) where it turns back right 24 deg. Now he jumps into the flat, farmlands, and he knows exactly where he his, whether he can see objects on the ground or not.

Please give me critical feedback. Especially if you are an FAR Part 121 (Passenger Carrying) Pilot and/or flew in the PAC NW in the 60s and 70s. I don’t want to be right only in my mind; I want to be right beyond all doubt. If I can get critical feedback and refine the (considerable) work I’ve done on this, then we can “put to bed” the notion that Cooper didn’t know where he was when he jumped. It doesn’t address all those other issues, but establishes a foundation for understanding exactly where he jumped.

Thanks for your patience with this long post,

Sluggo_Monster


(This post was edited by Sluggo_Monster on Feb 18, 2008, 7:48 PM)
Attachments: Four-Low-Altitude-Routes-ANN RED.jpg (78.1 KB)


low_pull1

Feb 18, 2008, 7:49 PM
Post #186 of 54587 (41684 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Cooper vs. the Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

JO, state what you stated to me in private about "Chuck" in VA or West Va! this may/does tie Duane to Skydiving. The people on here will know for sure.


low_pull1

Feb 18, 2008, 7:55 PM
Post #187 of 54587 (41681 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Cooper vs. the Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

Jo,
Were Duane and McCoy a team? Was "Chuck " tied to the team? Chuck was from VA ow W VA too

in ref to:

"he third time was in Va. when he showed me where Richard McCoy died - and who he was. When I think back on that - it was very Odd that he even told me that and I am not sure he mentioned Cooper in that conversation. In that same time span one night with a few too many - he cried (the only time in my life I saw him cry) - he was sad - he was the reason another man was dead...but never offered an explanation. "








377  (F 666)

Feb 19, 2008, 4:01 AM
Post #191 of 54587 (41626 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Cooper vs. the Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

Repost from locked Cooper forum:

"CB walkie talkies were widely available in 1971 and had RF power ranges of 0.1 to 5 watts in the 27 MHz band. Range HUGELY depended on terrain between the two units. In 1963 when I was a kid I had a Lafayette 0.1 watt single channel CB walkie talkie. It wasn't the toy type, it had 10 transistors and a good double conversion superhet receiver. My friend had one too.

We could get about half a mile in thick forest, but between high hilltops, we once got 9.3 miles and the reception was quite clear. The 5 watt units would have better range. If Cooper had an accomplice positioned on a mountaintop, and Cooper had a line of sight to that peak, it is VERY likely that they could talk to each other for 10 miles or more with cheap (30-80 dollars) CB walkie talkies of that era. That still leaves a serious problem arranging a rendezvous since Cooper could probably not tell exactly where he was. Being able to communicate is not the same as being able to locate."

Proves nothing but Duane's use of CB radio is interesting.


377  (F 666)

Feb 19, 2008, 4:53 AM
Post #192 of 54587 (41620 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Very interesting Sluggo, and clever as all hell, but there is no indication that Cooper actually did this. You likely would have made a better Cooper than Cooper himself. If Cooper had your brains, he definitely survived, invested in Microsoft, and is retired comfortably.


Albert18

Feb 19, 2008, 7:15 AM
Post #193 of 54587 (41598 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Consider this Sluggo, where Cooper walked on the airplane in Portland and the area where he jumped are very close. Yet this is considered a coincidence.

I will repeat that, the point where he started the hijacking and the point where he bailed are very close. If that isn't a clue, I don't know what is.


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 19, 2008, 9:21 AM
Post #194 of 54587 (41567 views)
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Re: [Albert18] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Albert18, Post: Consider this Sluggo, where Cooper walked on the airplane in Portland and the area where he jumped are very close. Yet this is considered a coincidence.

I will repeat that, the point where he started the hijacking and the point where he bailed are very close. If that isn't a clue, I don't know what is.

Okay, you went further than I was willing to go until I could get folks to accept the assertions in my previous post. So, now that you have let the cat out of the bag.... here goes:

In 1971 there was a small (about 1100 ft) grass airstrip 0.9 statute miles NE of the Battle Ground VORTAC. Do you want me to prove it?

Park car--> Get friend or Taxi-->Go to PDX-->
Do the deed--> Jump at BTG VOR-->
walk .25 to 2.0 miles to car-->Drive into history-->

Who knows?

See Attached Map: The Communications Tower is the BTG VORTAC the landing strip is .855 miles NNE.
Attachments: Mystery-Airport-RED.jpg (98.0 KB)


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 19, 2008, 9:53 AM
Post #195 of 54587 (41560 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Here are two more ariel photos:

The B&W was taken 07/15/1990, it looks like it was maybe an ultra-lite field but it could be a farm strip (1100 feet).

The color was taken 05-21-2005 (I believe) it was sometime near there (I'll have to dig out the correct date). <UPDATE: It was updated 01/06/2008 >

See what I mean?


(This post was edited by Sluggo_Monster on Feb 19, 2008, 10:08 AM)
Attachments: Mystery-Airport 07-15-1990.jpg (93.7 KB)
  Mystery-Airport 05-21-2005.jpg (97.1 KB)


377  (F 666)

Feb 19, 2008, 10:28 AM
Post #196 of 54587 (41548 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like a decent DZ to me, but Cooper had to be a navigation genius and have incredibly good luck to have actually exited over this precise area BY DESIGN. I wonder if there was anything that could be seen from a 727 at 10K that would have indicated he was over the VOR station? Do VOR radial antenna arrays (which are not very high) have distinctive lights when they are located off airport?

If Cooper exited here and managed to pull the ripcord handle, he survived, in my opinion.


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 19, 2008, 10:29 AM)


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 19, 2008, 10:38 AM
Post #197 of 54587 (41542 views)
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Re: [377] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I wonder if there was anything that could be seen from a 727 at 10K that would have indicated he was over the VOR station? Do VOR radial antenna arrays (which are not very high) have distinctive lights when they are located off airport?

No, and no.

Mark


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 19, 2008, 1:09 PM
Post #198 of 54587 (41519 views)
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Re: [mark] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I wonder if there was anything that could be seen from a 727 at 10K that would have indicated he was over the VOR station? Do VOR radial antenna arrays (which are not very high) have distinctive lights when they are located off airport?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you guys are missing something;

SEA-TAC Heading 178° [Enroute L-1]
MCKEN Heading 178° [Enroute L-1]
MALAY Turn to Heading 150.93°(27.07° Left) [Enroute L-1]
BTG VORTAC Turn to Heading 175° (24.07° Right) [Enroute L-1]

Those two turns (27.07° and 24.07°) can be easily seen on even a cheap compass. Maybe not accurately enough for navigation, but enough to do what your body won't (sense the turns). He knows he's on V-23 (previous long post) so all he has to do is wait for the second turn and then jump.

To me, the key is: He knew he was on V-23. Then all he had to do was wait for the turns. My long post explains why (I think) he knew he would only be on V-23.

I get the feeling that I'm not coming through clearly. Keep asking questions.

The Chart to look at is Enroute L-1, mabe I can post a copy later.

Sluggo_Monster


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 19, 2008, 1:41 PM
Post #199 of 54587 (41509 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... all he had to do was wait for the turns.

The jet was moving along at 120 mph or knots; two miles every minute.

The turn at the VOR cannot be instantaneous. So should he jump at the beginning of the turn or at the end of the turn? Does the turn begin before the VOR and cut the corner, so to speak, or does it begin at the VOR and tear-drop on course? How much time should he allow to walk down the stairs? Should he practice once or twice? And how does he compensate for a crosswind?

Also, the existence of an airstrip near the VOR doesn't mean anything if he's just using it as a place to park a getaway car.

Mark


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Feb 19, 2008, 1:56 PM
Post #200 of 54587 (41503 views)
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Re: [mark] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also, the existence of an airstrip near the VOR doesn't mean anything if he's just using it as a place to park a getaway car.

Maybe he just parked the car at the VOR...

ltdiver


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