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mrshutter45

Feb 3, 2013, 3:49 PM
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Re: [RobertMBlevins] CBS Films Acquires 'Skyjack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Skyjack 71 says in part:

Quote:
'NOTHING Blevins can state about KC's financial affairs is realistic...'

That's what we thought, too...his bank balances, income from the airline, etc didn't come close to jiving with what he was spending after the hijacking. As far as whether he had another form of income going, there is nothing to show on that. Not only do the records show this, but testimony from his closest friends, and his own letters home to Minnesota say the same thing. If he was really doing well, he wouldn't have been digging ditches for Geestman up in Bonney Lake the year before the hijacking. Smile

how do you know he is not just helping a friend?


377  (F 666)

Feb 3, 2013, 4:47 PM
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Re: [skyjack71] TOOT TOOT all u Wish! [In reply to] Can't Post

Jo wrote
Quote:
Surely some of YOU super Sleuth have come across some of these stories - but, NOT one of you ever looked for a link between Cooper and Weber in relation to the articles or the rumors. It was more EXCITING to believe one of America's finest like Petersen could be Cooper!

That's not the reason Jo. The reason is evidence. Peterson may not be DBC but he is superbly qualified. You have been unable to show any evidence that similarly qualifies Duane.

As for excitement it would be FAR more exciting to have Weber be DBC than Peterson. Everyone concedes that Peterson could have done it skills wise. NOBODY but you (and perhaps Farf) think Duane could have done the job skills wise. Farf doesn't think it takes any skill

So if Duane did pull it off it would be incredibly exciting. It would be a Walter Mitty fantasy come true. It would be the underdog story of the 20th century. I'd have to eat a crow but it would be worth it.

377


RobertMBlevins

Feb 3, 2013, 6:09 PM
Post #40603 of 52770 (20155 views)
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Re: [mrshutter45] CBS Films Acquires 'Skyjack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Skyjack 71 says in part:

Quote:
'NOTHING Blevins can state about KC's financial affairs is realistic...'

That's what we thought, too...his bank balances, income from the airline, etc didn't come close to jiving with what he was spending after the hijacking. As far as whether he had another form of income going, there is nothing to show on that. Not only do the records show this, but testimony from his closest friends, and his own letters home to Minnesota say the same thing. If he was really doing well, he wouldn't have been digging ditches for Geestman up in Bonney Lake the year before the hijacking. Smile

how do you know he is not just helping a friend?

Because the woman in the picture testified that Kenny volunteered for the job because he needed the money. Good question, though. You know I did six interviews with her up in Twisp, right? All except the first one went on for 3-4 hours. The first one was about an hour and a half. On the last interview, she admits that Kenny WAS with her ex-husband the week of the hijacking, after several previous denials. This I have on audio and video. That, and her crazy letter where she says that even if Kenny was aboard 305 that day...he wasn't hijacking the plane...(LOL)...he was just doing his job as the purser. Crazy

On an unrelated note, I think Beyonce's perfomance at halftime was the reason for the lights going out at the Super Bowl for 34 minutes. This did not come from me, but from one of the announcers. Sounds reasonable to me. Too much heat overloaded the system. Angelic


(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Feb 3, 2013, 6:13 PM)


Robert99

Feb 3, 2013, 7:14 PM
Post #40604 of 52770 (20128 views)
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Re: [RobertMBlevins] CBS Films Acquires 'Skyjack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Skyjack 71 says in part:

Quote:
'NOTHING Blevins can state about KC's financial affairs is realistic...'

That's what we thought, too...his bank balances, income from the airline, etc didn't come close to jiving with what he was spending after the hijacking. As far as whether he had another form of income going, there is nothing to show on that. Not only do the records show this, but testimony from his closest friends, and his own letters home to Minnesota say the same thing. If he was really doing well, he wouldn't have been digging ditches for Geestman up in Bonney Lake the year before the hijacking. Smile

how do you know he is not just helping a friend?

Because the woman in the picture testified that Kenny volunteered for the job because he needed the money. Good question, though. You know I did six interviews with her up in Twisp, right? All except the first one went on for 3-4 hours. The first one was about an hour and a half. On the last interview, she admits that Kenny WAS with her ex-husband the week of the hijacking, after several previous denials. This I have on audio and video. That, and her crazy letter where she says that even if Kenny was aboard 305 that day...he wasn't hijacking the plane...(LOL)...he was just doing his job as the purser. Crazy

Blevins, This picture has been discussed at length previously on this thread. As Mrshutter and many people here agree, KC is just helping a lady friend. You have no proof whatsoever that KC was paid to dig that ditch. And your low opinion of Mrs. Geestman indicates that you wouldn't believe her if she didn't say something to support your claims.

Robert99


RobertMBlevins

Feb 3, 2013, 7:34 PM
Post #40605 of 52770 (20120 views)
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Re: [Robert99] CBS Films Acquires 'Skyjack [In reply to] Can't Post

Robert99 says in part:

Quote:
'Blevins, This picture has been discussed at length previously on this thread. As Mrshutter and many people here agree, KC is just helping a lady friend. You have no proof whatsoever that KC was paid to dig that ditch. And your low opinion of Mrs. Geestman indicates that you wouldn't believe her if she didn't say something to support your claims...'

Were you (or Shutter) there for these interviews? Did you take extensive notes, make recordings, take pictures as I did and keep records? No.

I did. Are you kidding me? It's a 250 mile drive between my office and Margie Geestman's ranch in Twisp. You have to cross two mountain passes each way to get there and I went there six times. I was prepared when I showed up for those interviews. Especially after the first one, and nothing I have testified about regarding those interviews is a lie, nor did I embellish anything about them.

The Seattle FBI is free to question me in person regarding anything contained in the report we sent to them on Kenny Christiansen.

Your insinuation that I made up any testimony by the witnesses I interviewed is incorrect. You can assign other meanings to it, fine. You can say you don't believe it, no problem. But I have never lied, not here on DZ, or in the report.

Added note: On a matter of point, I like Margie Geestman. Bernie, not so much. I hate it when people lie to me.

Edit: Just saw the Ravens won the Super Bowl. This only proves that God does watch football, after all. Ray Lewis thinks so, anyway....Angelic

Being a Seahawks fan, I was rooting for the Ravens all the way. I think they should give the MVP to the Ravens' punter for running off eight seconds in the end zone on that safety at the end. Smile


(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Feb 3, 2013, 7:51 PM)


skyjack71

Feb 3, 2013, 8:08 PM
Post #40606 of 52770 (20099 views)
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Re: [Robert99] CBS Films Acquires 'Skyjack [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
Blevins, This picture has been discussed at length previously on this thread. As Mrshutter and many people here agree, KC is just helping a lady friend. You have no proof whatsoever that KC was paid to dig that ditch. And your low opinion of Mrs. Geestman indicates that you wouldn't believe her if she didn't say something to support your claims.

Robert99

He was having SO much fun someone decided to take a pic.

I am not sure how many of you have ever led a mule with a BODY sitting on the plow, but I am VERY familiar with the process....what is being shown in the photo is NOT safe.

The person sits on the plow and he uses the reins to make the mule stop or go. If the plow is properly weighted no one need sit on it. There are 2 different types of plows used....

We used a plow and a mule for our garden in KY. Daddy nor the tenant ever sat on the plow, but walked behind the plow. There is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for a second person to lead the mule.

One does NOT lead a mule pulling equipment because it is very dangerous. Should the mule bolt - that person stands to be injured.

My guess is the photo was STAGED. No other reason for her to be leading the mule and Kenny on the plow. Note the pic lends itself to a "still".

She was holding the mule so the mule would NOT move forward for the pic to be made. Otherwise any movement made by Kenny on the reins would have signaled the mule to react. IN FACT her position infront of the mule with someone else holding the reins is not a safe thing to do.

I frankly feel that Blevins led each witness and at their age they ATE if up. When he went public they were too humiliated to back down...and just went along for the ride. Well, the ride is OVER!

I have been aware of this since DAY one - the first time I saw the photo. I was ORDERED to Stand Down! The more Blevins has tooted KC the more he has humiliated himself and his "witnesses".

Should his witnesses decide to do so - he could be accused of Senior Abuse for profit.

Lyle had seen a program on TV about Cooper and thought it was a GOOD story and why he contact a movie producer in regards to this...no one seems to know WHY the letter Lyle wrote ended up on a movie producers desk instead of the investigator or the FBI. Does that one take a rocket scientist?

My first gut instinct when I realized who Dan Cooper was - WAS to CALL the FBI. Not a producer or a PI. I did contact a PI after the FBI just brushed me off on the phone and the PI helped me put information into a format I sent to Mr. Himmelsbach.

Mr. Himmeslbach was who provided the physical evidence we photo copied to the FBI...Mr. H. is the only reason the FBI even investigated Weber in the first place.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Feb 3, 2013, 8:19 PM)


skyjack71

Feb 3, 2013, 8:27 PM
Post #40607 of 52770 (20083 views)
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Re: [RobertMBlevins] CBS Films Acquires 'Skyjack [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
Because the woman in the picture testified that Kenny volunteered for the job because he needed the money. Good question, though. You know I did six interviews with her up in Twisp, right? All except the first one went on for 3-4 hours. The first one was about an hour and a half. On the last interview, she admits that Kenny WAS with her ex-husband the week of the hijacking, after several previous denials. This I have on audio and video. That, and her crazy letter where she says that even if Kenny was aboard 305 that day...he wasn't hijacking the plane...(LOL)...he was just doing his job as the purser. Crazy

The WOMAN was trying to SAVE face and YOU ignored her! Her letter out weighs any recording you co-erced from her with intense leading interviews.

What you did regarding these seniors should be prosecuted!
You LED two elderly seniors just to get a story - frankly I hope someone makes them aware of your actions on this thread. I would if I knew HOW contact them. Bernie was the only one who had the for-with-all to stand up to you and for that he has been chastized by you in the media.


I hope I live long enough to see you get your just rewards - to be disgraced by these seniors coming forward to de-nouce the story about their old friend.

One of them refused to be a part of this and another tried to save FACE and you turned your back all for the sake of a damn story I frankly believe will destroy whatever career you might have had as a writer.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Feb 3, 2013, 8:36 PM)


BruceSmith

Feb 3, 2013, 8:36 PM
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The Hunt for DB Cooper - an overview of the citizen sleuth team [In reply to] Can't Post

I just posted this on the Mountain News, but since many of the members of the Citizen Sleuths post here I thought I'd share it on the DZ as well.

The Hunt, Chapter 6.1, The Citizen Sleuths, 2. 2. 13


The Citizen Sleuths (CS) are a group of scientists and Norjak experts brought together by Special Agent Larry Carr early in his tenure as the Cooper case agent.

It was perhaps the most visible expression of his vision to solve the case by enlisting the assistance of the public. Carr hoped a team of citizen volunteers could be a parallel investigatory arm coupled to the resources he had at the FBI, and under his supervision they would provide the Bureau with lots of free – and perhaps innovative - sleuthing.

The group has been known by a few names, such as the Citizen Sleuth Team and the Cooper Research Group, but now it calls itself simply, “Citizen Sleuths.” Although Carr has left the case the CS are still working, and gave major presentations at the 2011 DB Cooper Symposium in Portland on a variety of findings.

The CS have fulfilled much of Carr’s vision for them, especially furthering the investigation of the money and clip-on tie. However, they also triggered some unintended consequences for the FBI that have proved very troubling.

But first, a personality profile of the sleuths:

Tom Kaye is the leader, and is a self-taught scientist with many interests and skills. Despite his lack of a college degree, Tom is an accomplished paleontologist with many publishing credits, and has worked as a contract researcher on digs for the University of Washington’s Burke Museum. He is also an inventor, and reportedly made millions developing paint ball guns.

Tom was recommended to Larry Carr by a fellow scientist named Jerry W., a university professor who wishes to maintain some privacy; hence I am withholding his last name.

Tom lives in Arizona, and is generally responsive to email queries about his Norjak work.

Carol Abraczinskas is known affectionately as “Abracadabra,” and is both a professor and science illustrator at the University of Chicago.

She is also a leading investigator into the connection between DB Cooper and the “Dan Cooper” comics popular in French-speaking Europe in the 1950s and 1960s. This odd piece of evidence was first brought to light by Snowmman at the DZ, and then championed by Larry Carr. After Carr left the case, Carol seems to have picked up the mantle of discovery, and she delivered an overview of the subject at the 2011 Symposium.

Alan Stone is a metallurgist, and a key scientist working on the CS team, especially in the electron spectroscopy experiments that were conducted on the tie and money. Alan works at a private metallurgical research firm in Illinois.

In addition, the CS expanded in 2009 to include associate members for a field trip to the Columbia River Basin, where they conducted experiments at Tina’s Bar and explored the Washougal watershed. This latter group includes Jerry Thomas and the fellow who found the money three decades ago, Brian Ingram. In addition, the CS were accompanied by an in-house FBI journalist from Washington, DC who would like to remain anonymous, but whose initials are BF. Also, Geoffrey Gray is mentioned by the Oregonian newspaper as participating in the group’s activities, and in Skyjack Gray discusses his experiences with the CS, especially his encounter with one of Jerry’s wayward kids in the hills above the Washougal River.

Apparently, Tom Kaye is more than just a leader of a group of volunteers, but someone dedicated to a new and bold investigation. Jerry Thomas told me that Kaye funded a large part of the Citizen Sleuths activities at the Columbia, paying for himself, Abraczinskas, Thomas, Ingram and Stone, while the FBI paid for Carr and BF. Presumably, Geoffrey Gray paid his own way.


Findings of the CS:

To begin, the CS spent two major periods of time perusing the FBI evidence – first in 2009 under Larry Carr’s tutelage and then in August 2011 under the administration of Curtis Eng. Access to certain personal files was denied to the CS, such as those developed during the investigation of suspects.

Although little physical evidence has been found overall in Norjak, which makes the case intriguing, what the FBI actually has on file in its evidence room is still modest, with the CS reporting that the evidentiary collection is “sparse.”

Nevertheless, the CS examined a variety of physical evidence and focused primarily on two items – the money and the clip-tie.

They asked some refreshing questions. In particular, could the bills tell the story of where they had been via microscopic analysis of the diatoms and other chemical residues imbedded in the bills? The answer to that question has been inconclusive, but certainly the CS raised the big red flag of why some of the bills are so discolored. In fact, a few bills are virtually black in color. Why?

As part of a microscopic analysis they found the bills have curiously large amounts of silver impregnated in the fibers.

The two clues – the blackening and the silver residues - seem to be connected. At present, the CS say the discoloration is due to the silver nitrate compounds used by the Bureau to test the bills for fingerprints.

But, one would think that would be obvious to a seasoned FBI agent, and a blackened bill wouldn’t need any separate analysis - which begs a second question, why was anyone asking the first question?

So far, none of these issues have been resolved.

During the several days this larger group spent on the water, they examined the floatability of the money bundles, measured the slopes of the river bank and compared aerial photos, and analyzed the shoreline sediments.

The CS also made ancillary inquiries; in particular to the manufacturer of the rubber bands wrapped around the three bundles of twenties found by Brian Ingram.

Tom Kaye says that they were able to find the original manufacturers of the rubber bands, who informed the CS that the bands would only last in the wild for three or four months. Yet, according to Brian the bands were intact when he picked the bundles out of the sand, but crumbled soon afterwards.

“So this is in conflict with the idea that they (the bills) would be rolling down the river for seven years,” Kaye told a reporter from KGW-TV in Portland.

It also raises the question of where the bundles were between the skyjacking in 1971 and their discovery in 1980. However, Kaye has acknowledged that the rubber bands might have been preserved much longer if buried in the sand.

How much longer is still unresolved.

Also, the CS put a few 20s under microscopes, looking first at the biological residues and the curious little holes found puncturing the bills. The CS was hoping that they might be able to find traces of “diatoms,” small aquatic creatures that live in all the waterways of the Columbia Basin. Kaye told me that the diatoms could function like a biochemical fingerprint, leaving unique signatures that reflect individual bodies of water – replete with their own mineral and biological characteristics.

It was a very ambitious and thoughtful endeavor. However, it didn’t seem to reveal much information.

“We didn’t see any diatoms on the money,” Kaye wrote me in September 2009.

Nevertheless, Pat Forman has told me that Tom Kaye had told her the money had mineral residues on it indicating it had spent some time in a damp environment south of the Columbia River, in the areas of northern Oregon. Pat felt this validated her belief that Barb had stashed the money for several years in an agricultural cistern in Woodburn, Oregon.

However, I have not found any corroboration on this claim. My relationship with Tom Kaye is uneven, as the CS “goes black” with frequency. This means the members of the CS do not communicate with any media for long periods of time. The question of what Kaye told Pat Forman – or what mineral markers have been detected, if any - has not been answered, falling regrettably into this black hole of silence.

Nevertheless, Kaye did post on the DZ in 2011 that he thought the money did not float to Tina’s Bar. One reason he gave was that the bills seemed to have been stacked for a long period of time, almost compressing them together.

“The money we examined was sort of adhered to the other bills in the stack and when they were separated, in some places a stock of bill chunks came with a single bill. You could see that the bills were all lined up one below the other when they were buried.”

In contrast, Kaye said that his floatability survey indicated that bundles of money “fan out” when immersed in the water.

Fortunately, I have found Tom to be quite chatty in person, and the CS have established a comprehensive web site to discuss their work, sharing the following important finding: “…the money…fragments recovered from Tina’s Bar were examined. Contrary to popular reports, there were only a few fragments in plastic boxes and no indication that there was a quantity of fragments found or any information on exactly where they were recovered.” (Italics are mine).

So where are the money shards that have received so much attention? The feds aren’t saying, and my queries to the Bureau on this matter are met with variations of boilerplate spin such as “…Norjak is still an open case and the FBI does not comment on its on-going investigations.”

Stonewall.

Moving on, the clip-on tie has revealed significant findings.

The tie was examined twice by the CS. In 2009, they report that they took many “sticky tape” and “stub samples” for a scanning electron microscope. Initially, they were looking for pollen spores and chemical residues.

During the second visit in 2011, the tie was “thoroughly sampled using a variety of techniques including ultra violet (UV) laser florescence and forensic vacuum for high density particle collection.”

The CS found significant amounts of pollen on the tie, saying that spores of Club Moss, common in herbal remedies and homeopathic medicines, were “prevalent.” Conversely, no pollen residues from other plants were found, which was a disappointment since the CS had hoped to get geographical markers from this line of investigation.

Perhaps more telling was the CS discovery of titanium fragments on the tie, suggesting that the tie – and most probably DB Cooper – had ben exposed to metal filings sometime shortly before the skyjacking.

Titanium is an uncommon metal. In 1971 it was used mostly in airplane manufacturing as it is lightweight and strong, and currently, titanium is also used in golf club fabrication and paints. Nationwide there are about half-dozen foundries that produce titanium in the form that was found on the tie.

Did Cooper work in any of them? Or could DB Cooper have been an engineer at Boeing, or some kind of tie-wearing technician at a shop working with titanium?

In addition, the CS found other bits of metal, such as two microscopic spiral shards of aluminum, which may have come from a drill bit. The CS also found traces of stainless steel and magnesium, plus exotic metals like bismuth. As a result, the CS feel that Cooper may have worked or visited a highly specialized metal fabrication plant before his skyjacking.

Despite the assortment of metal shards the CS focused primarily on the titanium.

“Of all the particles examined on the tie, the titanium particles were the most distinctive,” the CS reports at http://www.citizensleuths.com/pollen.html .

In 1971, titanium was considered a “strategic” metal used primarily in military aircraft and some civilian aircraft, possibly the mock-ups of the SST, the Super-Sonic Transport being developed by Boeing at their Renton, Washington facility. Further, the shards found on Cooper’s tie were pure titanium and not an alloy. Importantly, titanium alloys were more common in the manufacturing of civilian airplanes, so Cooper’s exposure to pure titanium places him in some very specialized environments, perhaps one of the titanium manufacturing plants in the United States.

Alan Stone, at the 2011 Symposium said that in 1971 there were six sites that could be considered as a place Cooper might have visited – four are in the United States, and one each in the UK and Japan. In addition, Russian processes some raw titanium sand.

The titanium foundry in Albany, Oregon known as the Oregon Metallurgical Corporation, or Oremet, is one candidate.

However, Bob Sailshaw, a retired Boeing engineer, has reported in the DZ that pieces of titanium alloy and pure titanium were available in scrap tote-boxes in the alley ways of the 9-101 building at the Development Center in Seattle next to the main floor shop where many things were developed and tested for use on the SST airplane. Sail wrote to me and said: “A person looking through a tote-box could have easily picked up small machining and dust particles on their tie as it hung down into the tote-box while scrounging for free items. That lab had experimented with flame-spraying metal, even pure titanium, on leading edge parts for high temperature protection. Sheridan Peterson (a prime suspect) worked in the ‘Manuals and Handbooks Group’ that had office space in the same building on the 2nd floor and right above the research lab in the late 1960's.”

Kaye seems to have vacillated about where Cooper might have picked up the titanium and initially I thought he had suggested the SST program at Boeing, but later when I asked him to clarify this issue at the Portland Symposium he told me explicitly that it was not Boeing.

“The only connection of pure titanium to SST manufacturing at Boeing was the fact that when Boeing scrapped the SST project it collapsed the titanium industry,” he said wryly.

But Sail strongly refutes Kaye’s perspective:

“Boeing was working with all forms of titanium in the experimental shop, including pure titanium to flame-spray on leading edge components. Pure titanium does not have the strength of alloyed titanium, but has better high-temperature characteristics. I think Boeing was possibly the only place the tie could have got the pure titanium machining particles. Kaye's ‘not Boeing’ is just a bad conclusion.”

Sadly, my efforts to clarify this perspective with the CS have fallen back into the black hole of “we’re not talking to anyone at this time.”

One element that can be clarified is Geoffrey Gray’s contention that the titanium found on the tie was a raw form of titanium called “titanium sponge.” Kaye has widely refuted that claim, saying Geoffrey jumped the gun as the CS were in the early stages of examining their discovery, ultimately realizing that the initial findings may have been a false reading coming from match-head residues of chlorine and sulfur coupled with molecules of pure titanium.

One important finding of the CS is what they didn’t see - they never examined the Amboy chute, found in 2009. This is confounding as I have not spoken substantively with anyone who has, or knows where it is, or even knows definitely where it was found. This conundrum will be further explored in the chapter on the parachutes.

Other problems were created by the presence of the CS themselves.

The CS were apparently were left unsupervised in the evidence room in Seattle, although Alan Stone said at the Portland Symposium in 2011 that Larry Carr was present with them in 2009. However, none of the pictures taken of the CS include Carr, which is odd considering that Larry loved media attention. As a result, the evidence may be considered now to be legally compromised.

More disturbing is the disassembling of the tie as described in Gray’s book, Skyjack, where the CS decided to pull the tie apart and look at its fibers more closely under an electron microscope. Were they authorized to man-handled the evidence like this?

Equally problematic is the question of how the members of the CS were selected. Could anyone be part of the group? What qualified the members that were chosen? What happened to the notion of “equal access” for all citizens? Why can’t I review the evidence like the CS did, and ultimately, why not you, dear reader? The activities of the CS left the Bureau vulnerable to legal challenges from journalists and the general public.

Also, the knowledge gained by the CS couldn’t be controlled by the Bureau. The CS functioned separately and had independent access to media. Frankly, the members of the CS were more forthcoming than anyone in the FBI, and I learned volumes about the money find by talking to members of the CS for five minutes at the end of dinner in Portland. They had nothing to hide, and they didn’t.

Lastly, did the FBI really fail to conduct a microscopic investigation of the tie and money? Certainly the FBI has electron microscopes and spectrographic instrumentation – I know my biology department at Hofstra University had some in 1971. So, it’s hard to believe that the feds didn’t conduct some kind of analysis akin to the CS.

But if they didn’t, why not?

And if they did, where are their findings? This raises the question of whether the Citizen Sleuths are truly that, or are they actors in a Kabuki Theater production staged for more pernicious political reasons?


smokin99

Feb 3, 2013, 8:46 PM
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KC diggin digging the ditch [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL...got to say it ----as has been noted several times before --- he sure looks like one happy, broke, short ditch digger. Just sayin...Smile
The picture does look posed, but even if not, they all look like they are having a grand ol time. (Even the flippin animal----what is she doing with her hand??? Trying to make it smile?? Crazy
Frankly, it is hard to see the dire straits that some want to associate with the picture. Could be he might have just been helping out a friend and she might have felt obligated to pay him.


mrshutter45

Feb 3, 2013, 8:59 PM
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Re: [smokin99] KC diggin digging the ditch [In reply to] Can't Post

well said, technically is he really digging a ditch, he says this a lot
without the picture, this leaves a thought of a man and a shovel
digging and sweating his way out of poverty. kind of dressing it
up a bit I would say Cool


smokin99

Feb 3, 2013, 9:10 PM
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Re: [BruceSmith] The Hunt for DB Cooper - an overview of the citizen sleuth team [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
......

Lastly, did the FBI really fail to conduct a microscopic investigation of the tie and money? Certainly the FBI has electron microscopes and spectrographic instrumentation – I know my biology department at Hofstra University had some in 1971. So, it’s hard to believe that the feds didn’t conduct some kind of analysis akin to the CS.

But if they didn’t, why not?

And if they did, where are their findings? This raises the question of whether the Citizen Sleuths are truly that, or are they actors in a Kabuki Theater production staged for more pernicious political reasons?

Good overview Bruce.
You know, I don't begrudge the CS's access, but it does beg the question how the FBI picks and chooses who to give access to.
And as for handling evidence, I think it was not only compromised if CS handled it without supervision, but even before CS - as certain videos and pics showed someone handling evidence without gloves and it appears that that evidence was simply all stashed together with no attempts to prevent contract transfer from one item to another. I know this was in the days before they were concerned about that stuff, but it does bring into question how anything found on the items would be conclusive.

For these reasons, (though there are others), I'd venture to say that any conviction of a caught DB Cooper would be a miracle in itself --- which has to make one wonder why still with all the cloak and dagger? Wink


georger

Feb 3, 2013, 9:34 PM
Post #40612 of 52770 (20038 views)
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Re: [BruceSmith] The Hunt for DB Cooper - an overview of the citizen sleuth team [In reply to] Can't Post

 This raises the question of whether the Citizen Sleuths are truly that, or are they actors in a Kabuki Theater production staged for more pernicious political reasons?
The only "Kabuki" I am aware of, is that which is
staring me in the face, in your last sentence above.

Get real for once Bruce, if you can.

"Scientists who can explain what they are doing and
why, are rare. Writers who can explain what scientists
are doing and why, are even more rare." - Richard
Feynman

Pirate


(This post was edited by georger on Feb 3, 2013, 9:48 PM)


RobertMBlevins

Feb 3, 2013, 9:48 PM
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Re: [smokin99] KC diggin digging the ditch [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
LOL...got to say it ----as has been noted several times before --- he sure looks like one happy, broke, short ditch digger. Just sayin...Smile
The picture does look posed, but even if not, they all look like they are having a grand ol time. (Even the flippin animal----what is she doing with her hand??? Trying to make it smile?? Crazy
Frankly, it is hard to see the dire straits that some want to associate with the picture. Could be he might have just been helping out a friend and she might have felt obligated to pay him.

Might this. Might that.

The Geestmans needed a septic tank ditch dug for their property at Bonney Lake in 1970. Kenny needed money and volunteered to help for the wages. The ditch was dug, Kenny was paid, and the tank was installed. Doesn't mean he was DB Cooper.


(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Feb 3, 2013, 9:55 PM)
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  FBIcollagelowres.jpg (281 KB)
  GeestmanHC2statementsp.jpg (89.3 KB)
  taxdeedwithtex2.gif (266 KB)
  breaktimeKenny1970.gif (187 KB)
  counterthreevine.gif (105 KB)


smokin99

Feb 3, 2013, 9:57 PM
Post #40614 of 52770 (20005 views)
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Re: [RobertMBlevins] KC diggin digging the ditch [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The Geestmans needed a septic tank ditch dug for their property at Bonney Lake in 1970. Kenny needed money and volunteered to help for the wages. The ditch was dug, Kenny was paid, and the tank was installed. Doesn't mean he was DB Cooper.

So they say. Might be. Might not. My point exactly. Cool


RobertMBlevins

Feb 3, 2013, 10:35 PM
Post #40615 of 52770 (19986 views)
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Re: [smokin99] KC diggin digging the ditch [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The Geestmans needed a septic tank ditch dug for their property at Bonney Lake in 1970. Kenny needed money and volunteered to help for the wages. The ditch was dug, Kenny was paid, and the tank was installed. Doesn't mean he was DB Cooper.

So they say. Might be. Might not. My point exactly. Cool
House is there. Tank is there. Testimony is there. Pictures you've seen. Maybe it's time to make a trip to Bonney Lake and see for yourself. Digging that ditch doesn't make Kenny the hijacker, of course. Just means he wanted to pick up a few bucks.

This is to be expected. Not only did NWA pay like crap and treat their employees like chattel, but the Boeing layoffs in Seattle were in full swing. Most people I knew there in 1970 hardly had two pennies to rub together.

I'm just glad my folks had a farm going at that time down in Sumner so we could eat actual food.Smile


(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Feb 3, 2013, 10:39 PM)


377  (F 666)

Feb 4, 2013, 5:10 AM
Post #40616 of 52770 (19938 views)
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Re: [smokin99] The Hunt for DB Cooper - an overview of the citizen sleuth team [In reply to] Can't Post

Smokin99 wrote
Quote:
I'd venture to say that any conviction of a caught DB Cooper would be a miracle in itself --- which has to make one wonder why still with all the cloak and dagger?

The FBI has been amazingly cavalier about the handling of physical evidence. It's not normal practice. As a defense lawyer, when I had my experts examine physical evidence or run lab tests the prosecution enforced strict protocols so that the custody chain was unbroken and fully documented and that contamination or alteration of evidence was prevented.

Even in minor cases this was how things were handled. I represented a ghetto bar owner who the cops hated. He was arrested for serving alcohol to a minor. It was a major hassle just to get a sample of the drink which was preserved. My lab had to sign for the sample and document it's handling at every step. The prosecution wisely only gave my lab a portion of the sample so that they had a control if my findings were later to be disputed. My client got really lucky. My lab tested zero alcohol. When the police lab repeated their test they found the same thing. Case dismissed.

It might be that the FBI has some undisclosed evidence that has been very carefully handled and that is highly probative in identifying Cooper, enough so that a conviction could be secured without any other evidence. Cigarette butts might fit this description. It just makes no sense that they would be "lost".

Peterson, a highly qualified suspect, was ruled out on DNA. Maybe it wasn't tie DNA but cigarette DNA which would be more confidently linked to DB Cooper.

377


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 4, 2013, 5:18 AM)


EVickiW

Feb 4, 2013, 7:51 AM
Post #40617 of 52770 (19924 views)
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Re: [377] The Hunt for DB Cooper - an overview of the citizen sleuth team [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Smokin99 wrote
Quote:
I'd venture to say that any conviction of a caught DB Cooper would be a miracle in itself --- which has to make one wonder why still with all the cloak and dagger?

The FBI has been amazingly cavalier about the handling of physical evidence. It's not normal practice. As a defense lawyer, when I had my experts examine physical evidence or run lab tests the prosecution enforced strict protocols so that the custody chain was unbroken and fully documented and that contamination or alteration of evidence was prevented.

Even in minor cases this was how things were handled. I represented a ghetto bar owner who the cops hated. He was arrested for serving alcohol to a minor. It was a major hassle just to get a sample of the drink which was preserved. My lab had to sign for the sample and document it's handling at every step. The prosecution wisely only gave my lab a portion of the sample so that they had a control if my findings were later to be disputed. My client got really lucky. My lab tested zero alcohol. When the police lab repeated their test they found the same thing. Case dismissed.

It might be that the FBI has some undisclosed evidence that has been very carefully handled and that is highly probative in identifying Cooper, enough so that a conviction could be secured without any other evidence. Cigarette butts might fit this description. It just makes no sense that they would be "lost".

Peterson, a highly qualified suspect, was ruled out on DNA. Maybe it wasn't tie DNA but cigarette DNA which would be more confidently linked to DB Cooper.

377

Hi 377,

To the best of your knowledge (or anybody else), were the cigarette butts lost before they arrived at Quantico to be DNA tested or after they were tested and sent back to the evidence box in Seattle?

Vicki


377  (F 666)

Feb 4, 2013, 10:45 AM
Post #40618 of 52770 (19892 views)
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Re: [EVickiW] The Hunt for DB Cooper - an overview of the citizen sleuth team [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Vicki, welcome back!

I am sorry but I do not know the answer to your question about when and where the cig butts disappeared.

The FBI seems to have high confidence in their ability to rule out suspects using (alleged) Cooper DNA, so I just have a hunch that they have something besides the tie, something less likely to have been contaminated with the DNA of others.

The loss or destruction of evidence can ruin the chances of a successful prosecution. Defense counsel can argue that the lost evidence would have proved that his client was NOT the person who committted the crime. The loss of potentially exculpatory evidence often results in a dismissal because it deprives the defendant of a right to a fair trial. If there is other evidence that indisputably proves the defendant's guilt then the loss of other evidence may be considered "harmless error" and a conviction will be upheld on appeal.

The cigarette butts probably had DBC's DNA and would have been the best evidence available. Their loss could blow any chance of a successful prosecution. The FBI bungles sometimes but they are generally pretty careful about preserving evidence. They know that a failure has dire legal consequences.

377


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 4, 2013, 2:07 PM)


BruceSmith

Feb 4, 2013, 4:34 PM
Post #40619 of 52770 (19854 views)
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Re: [377] The Hunt for DB Cooper - an overview of the citizen sleuth team [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Vicki, welcome back!

I am sorry but I do not know the answer to your question about when and where the cig butts disappeared.

The FBI seems to have high confidence in their ability to rule out suspects using (alleged) Cooper DNA, so I just have a hunch that they have something besides the tie, something less likely to have been contaminated with the DNA of others.

The loss or destruction of evidence can ruin the chances of a successful prosecution. Defense counsel can argue that the lost evidence would have proved that his client was NOT the person who committted the crime. The loss of potentially exculpatory evidence often results in a dismissal because it deprives the defendant of a right to a fair trial. If there is other evidence that indisputably proves the defendant's guilt then the loss of other evidence may be considered "harmless error" and a conviction will be upheld on appeal.

The cigarette butts probably had DBC's DNA and would have been the best evidence available. Their loss could blow any chance of a successful prosecution. The FBI bungles sometimes but they are generally pretty careful about preserving evidence. They know that a failure has dire legal consequences.

377

My current understanding - from piecing together bits here and there - is that the cigarette butts were lost shortly after they were analyzed for DNA, somewhere in the 2002-2003 time period.

Pat Forman has told me that she and Ron clearly remember a 2002 TV news reporter on Seattle TV discussing the DNA findings gained from the cigs. Hence, the bigger question is where is the DNA report, now.


(This post was edited by BruceSmith on Feb 4, 2013, 4:36 PM)


BruceSmith

Feb 4, 2013, 4:46 PM
Post #40620 of 52770 (19850 views)
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Re: [EVickiW] The Hunt for DB Cooper - an overview of the citizen sleuth team [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi 377,

To the best of your knowledge (or anybody else), were the cigarette butts lost before they arrived at Quantico to be DNA tested or after they were tested and sent back to the evidence box in Seattle?

Vicki
I recall Larry Carr posting here saying that the cigarette butts were already lost when he requested Las Vegas FO to send them to him in Seattle for further evaluation in about 2007. I remember being surprised that they were in Las Vegas and not Seattle, and when I asked Jerry Thomas about this oddity, he was quite lackadaisical about it.

I think Las Vegas got involved because the head of the retrieval team in Reno was the SAC from Las Vegas, according to Calame and Rhodes.


377  (F 666)

Feb 4, 2013, 5:09 PM
Post #40621 of 52770 (19841 views)
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Re: [BruceSmith] The Hunt for DB Cooper - an overview of the citizen sleuth team [In reply to] Can't Post

Bruce wrote:
Quote:
My current understanding - from piecing together bits here and there - is that the cigarette butts were lost shortly after they were analyzed for DNA, somewhere in the 2002-2003 time period.

If true then is it cigarette DNA that they use to rule out suspects? I was not aware that they analysed the cigarette butts for DNA. If they did, I assume they would have compared it to the tie DNA to shore up their conclusion that the tie was Cooper's.

377


smokin99

Feb 4, 2013, 5:31 PM
Post #40622 of 52770 (19835 views)
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Re: [377] The Hunt for DB Cooper - an overview of the citizen sleuth team [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Bruce wrote:
Quote:
My current understanding - from piecing together bits here and there - is that the cigarette butts were lost shortly after they were analyzed for DNA, somewhere in the 2002-2003 time period.

If true then is it cigarette DNA that they use to rule out suspects? I was not aware that they analysed the cigarette butts for DNA. If they did, I assume they would have compared it to the tie DNA to shore up their conclusion that the tie was Cooper's.

377

I don't know that he said DNA -- just that they were "processed" in the lab.
From ckret post:

Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington DC and Seattle or disposed of. Every spot on the plane possibly touched by Cooper was processed for prints. The seats he was sitting in were actually removed and sent to DC.



smokin99

Feb 4, 2013, 5:35 PM
Post #40623 of 52770 (19833 views)
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Re: [smokin99] The Hunt for DB Cooper - an overview of the citizen sleuth team [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Bruce wrote:
Quote:
My current understanding - from piecing together bits here and there - is that the cigarette butts were lost shortly after they were analyzed for DNA, somewhere in the 2002-2003 time period.

If true then is it cigarette DNA that they use to rule out suspects? I was not aware that they analysed the cigarette butts for DNA. If they did, I assume they would have compared it to the tie DNA to shore up their conclusion that the tie was Cooper's.

377

I don't know that he said DNA -- just that they were "processed" in the lab.
From ckret post:

Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington DC and Seattle or disposed of. Every spot on the plane possibly touched by Cooper was processed for prints. The seats he was sitting in were actually removed and sent to DC.

And what happened to the glass he drank from.


BruceSmith

Feb 4, 2013, 6:56 PM
Post #40624 of 52770 (19819 views)
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Physical Characteristics of DB Cooper [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm working up a profile on the physical characteristics of DB Cooper, and some behavioral ones. If I've left anything out, please let me know - thanks.

The Hunt, Chapter 4.4, Who was DB Cooper?

Here is what we know about DB Cooper:


First, we know for sure that his name was not DB Cooper, since the initials were a result of a misunderstanding between a reporter and a Portland police detective.

The man known to us as DB Cooper, however, introduced himself to the NWO ticket counter as “Dan Cooper,” and that is the name that the ticket agent, Dennis Lysine, wrote on the skyjacker’s boarding pass.

The man calling himself Dan Cooper was a male Caucasian in his mid-to-late 40s, or possibly even early 50s, which is very old to be conducting rigorous – and inventive - criminal activity.

Cooper was wearing a dark brown or black suit, white shirt and thin clip-on black tie. Over this he wore a lightweight black raincoat. He wore loafers or some kind of slip-on shoe that might have come to his ankles. He may have been wearing a set of thermal underwear beneath his business attire.

The detailed physical descriptions given by the passengers vary, but there is a general consistency in their accounts:

Cooper’s hair was dark brown or black and short, and parted on the left side. It may have been wavy in the manner that is called “marcelled.”

He was identified as having “dark, piercing eyes,” that flight attendant Florence Schaffner declared were brown. He may have had a square jaw, or a saggy chin.

He was about six-foot tall or maybe six-one. Some fellow passengers thought he might have been five-ten. Cooper was trim and was estimated to be about 175 pounds. He also had an olive complexion, leading some to believe that he might have been of Mediterranean heritage.

He also carried a cloth-like brief case and toted a brown paper bag, also reported to be a burlap sack. We later learned that he had a pair of wrap-around sunglasses and a knife of some kind that he used to cut parachute cords. He wore no hat.

The ticket agent said Cooper stood off by himself in the passenger waiting area, staring out the window until the boarding call was issued for Flight 305. In general, Cooper looked and acted like a business man heading home for the Thanksgiving holiday.

But he did attract some attention, and NWO gate agent Hal Williams reported that one of 305’s passengers stood out from the rest – a guy dressed all in black and who looked like a “lone wolf,” according to Geoffrey Gray in Skyjack.

Cooper spoke with no discernible accent, leading some to believe that he might have been raised in the Midwest. He had no visible tattoos, scars or distinguishing anatomical features that are known publicly. However, it is rumored that the FBI knows of a small scar on Cooper’s hand that it has not revealed to the public.

However, he smoked Raleigh cigarettes, and left eight aboard the plane. The flight attendants said that his fingers were discolored from the tobacco smoke, suggesting that he was a heavy smoker. Further, he wore no rings or any jewelry, but he wore a watch.

Cooper drank a Bourbon and water during the two and one-half hour wait over Sea-Tac.

Himmelsbach describes Cooper's behavior as desperate and crude, but the flight attendants describe Cooper as mostly calm and thoughtful – a “gentleman” one recalled.

Cooper used a noteworthy colloquial expression, “funny stuff.” During the refueling of the craft he warned the crew not to attempt any “funny stuff or I’ll do the job.”

Cooper was very knowledgeable of the plane and possibly parachuting: He knew the requirements for flying a 727 so that a parachute jump would be successful. That was classified information in 1971.

He was familiar with avionic terminology, and properly identified the intercom radio as an “interphone,” and the stairway used by airlines to load passengers on the runway as an “airstairs.”

His use of a bomb was considered by the FBI to be a “game changer,” and thwarted any effort to rush him from different directions.

His choice of destinations – “Mexico City or anywhere in Mexico” – is widely believed to be astute, as it put him in the air corridor known as Victor 23 and over predictable terrain.

Cooper’s insistence that the fuel trucks be positioned to the port side of the plane gave him optimum visibility of events outside the plane. His choice of seat 18 E was also optimal for monitoring events in the plane during the hijacking. Similarly, his crowd control was successful, and he had the passengers in the rear of the aircraft moved forward without incident.

His use of the flight attendants as couriers kept the cockpit crew at a distance, and minimized his exposure to eye witnesses. Cooper wisely demanded the return of all of his notes. He even pocketed an empty paper match cover he had used from the ashtray.

Cooper also demonstrated a familiarity with the area, noting that McChord Air Base was only 20 minutes from Sea-Tac, and correctly identified the lights of Tacoma from the air as they circled Sea-Tac.

Cooper also insisted that meals be brought aboard for the crew, even though they never ate them, and according to Bill Rataczak the German Shepherds brought aboard in Reno to search for the bomb ate the food before doing any sniffing.

Cooper also brought several tablets of Benzedrine to keep the crew alert.


skyjack71

Feb 4, 2013, 7:28 PM
Post #40625 of 52770 (19806 views)
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Re: [smokin99] The Hunt for DB Cooper - an overview of the citizen sleuth team [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Bruce wrote:
Quote:
My current understanding - from piecing together bits here and there - is that the cigarette butts were lost shortly after they were analyzed for DNA, somewhere in the 2002-2003 time period.

If true then is it cigarette DNA that they use to rule out suspects? I was not aware that they analysed the cigarette butts for DNA. If they did, I assume they would have compared it to the tie DNA to shore up their conclusion that the tie was Cooper's.

377

I don't know that he said DNA -- just that they were "processed" in the lab.
From ckret post:

Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington DC and Seattle or disposed of. Every spot on the plane possibly touched by Cooper was processed for prints. The seats he was sitting in were actually removed and sent to DC.


Since certain evidence I provided to the FBI thur CARR never made it to the succeeding agents - I don't TRUST him one bit.

The FBI did NOT even ask me for DNA until 2003 - now put that in your pipe and smoke it. If they had DNA from the cigarettes they would have requested DNA from Duane Weber in 1997 and way before 2003. Logic is all one needs with this.

The butts had been LOST prior to Weber being presented as a subject - IF THE FBI had the butts in 1997 when WEBER was presented as a suspect - WHY was his DNA not requested?

WHY would they send a letter in 1998 stating Weber's prints did NOT match the prints on the plane?

Paper work and recorded phone calls by others - dispute all of the stuff you guys have spent the last 24 hrs discussing.

I have the letter from the FBI!
I have the receipts for the DNA and the receipts of the return of the DNA. IF THEY HAD DNA IN 1997 - DUANE WEBER's DNA WOULD HAVE BEEN REQUESTED AT THAT TIME....not 5 yrs LATER!

The smokes were lost during the time of the McCoy arguments long before Duane Weber ever became a suspect. Supposedly the agent SHOWED his wife and someone else the tie??????? OR so it was claimed.

You guys get SO lost in your time frames! Go back in time and you will know the smokes disappeared BEFORE Weber ever became a suspect!


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