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skyjack71

Jan 20, 2013, 11:08 PM
Post #40201 of 54500 (31943 views)
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Re: [Amazon] Rising Water. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Then again.. if all the glacial ice melted in all the glaciers that currently exist.. Florida would be a very small place around Tallahassee and sea level would be 200 feet higher. Most of the limestone in Florida formed in coral reefs when water was higher... and conversely there were reefs when it was lower as well.

A spring runs behind my house and I am on one the highest locations in my area. I am supposed to have LAKE view, and I will assure you I can hardly see the lake because of the overgrowth in the creek and that creek may pose a problem with my insurance this yr.

Spent all of SAT with guys setting up traps - Armadillos. I got a family of them back there and they were digging up against the house. That can spell big trouble with the Fla sand and septic tank lines.

One of the traps was moved when I went out this morning. They are baited with bananas and apples. That sucker had gotten the Banana without going into the trap. The peels were still inside and in the wire of the cage. The trap was still open so he was REAL gentle. It could have been a racoon - because I could NOT imagine an armadillo being able to get its snout into the small holes of the traps.

The peel was really liquidy and the banana was just sucked out of it. Better than his digging up the roots of my grass.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Jan 20, 2013, 11:19 PM)


georger

Jan 20, 2013, 11:37 PM
Post #40202 of 54500 (31937 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Down To business [In reply to] Can't Post

 

That was my understanding also - then there are individuals who claimed he had access to ALL of the records....very unlikely the FBI allowed him full access. Gray did tell me a little story about his ventures in the files. It was told to me in confidence and I try never to let the people down.
Yes, Gray can be very conversant. Blevins' seems to
have the idea Gray talks in one-liners, black or white;
not the case at all. Can be disarming and likeable.
I actually wondered at one point if we shouldn't have
Gray on the team for a combined effort, but I
explored that with several people who turned thumbs
down on the idea. Later, I wondered if Tom might take
Geoff on in a combined effort, but I guess that was
not to be either.

I mean it was no secret the FBI and people close to
the case were giving Geoff special considerations.
Himmelsbach for one. I wondered if we shouldn't all
be working as a team of sorts but one person turned
that idea down flat.

The first hint of a problem was over 'two types of
silver in the money' and I guess the problem had
come from me talking to Geoff?

What I had said was that there "might" be one type of
silver in residue in between the bills, if the money had
spent time in a silver bearing region like the
Washougal, and the other form resulting from silver
nitrate tests the FBI had performed on some of the
money. And possibly even a third type, depending on
sand types at Tina's Bar ... The word "might" became
"is" somehow, and that is what I called Geoff to try
and correct ... and things involving others and Gray
unraveled after that. I guess 'two types of silver'
never got corrected.

The whole thing at the time was a little confusing with
Geoff very difficult to get on the phone et cetera. This
may have been a period where he took a vacation or
something? There are posts about this in the archive.
It's a little self-serving talking about it now, in my
opinion. In the current climate, people are going to
believe what they want to believe, in any event. I am
thoroughly convinced of that and it serves no real
purpose to bring this all back up now.


(This post was edited by georger on Jan 20, 2013, 11:44 PM)


skyjack71

Jan 21, 2013, 10:54 AM
Post #40203 of 54500 (31863 views)
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Never Too Late Georger [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The whole thing at the time was a little confusing with
Geoff very difficult to get on the phone et cetera. This may have been a period where he took a vacation or something? There are posts about this in the archive.

It's a little self-serving talking about it now, in my opinion. In the current climate, people are going to believe what they want to believe, in any event. I am thoroughly convinced of that and it serves no real purpose to bring this all back up now.

Georger I believe once the negative elements of the thread have been told to stand down that there can actually be some progress made.

The silver suspect was NOT discussed on an elementary level so individuals like myself could absorb it. Sometimes you intellectual types forget that those of us on a lower level or in other fields just do not grasp the explanations.

In elementary terms - explain the 3 types of silver that was "suspect" and how it could have got there.

Then explain what you guys decided - was there one or two kinds of silver on the money and if indeed the only way if could have got there was the fingerprint powder.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Jan 21, 2013, 11:17 AM)


skyjack71

Jan 21, 2013, 11:37 AM
Post #40204 of 54500 (31847 views)
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Re: [georger] More Questions? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In elementary terms - explain the 3 types of silver that was "suspect" and how it could have got there.

1.
Did the test comfirm 3 types, 2 types or only one type of silver?

2.
Was it ever confirmed how the silver got on the money?

I have yet to read (in all of the confusion) exactly what YOU and others DID find on that money.
It is my belief that others also never got a clear picture about the 'silver'. The stories were going ever which way!

Therefore would you please address the silver again - NOW that things are more civil and not so disruptive.

What could have been the possible reasons for the silver content?

Tina's Bar
The River
Washougal
Fingerprint chemicals
Contamination by Storage

Did the anaylsis CONFIRM it was only Fingerprint Chemicals? Was this conclusive?



My personal take:

As a layman I find it very difficult to believe the money was in the water for 8 1/2 yrs. It defies common sense.

Was the silver content even questionable - or did the team just accept the FBI's claim about the silver nitrate or did the team actually conduct a test to prove or disprove them?

Just because an agent made the claim about the print medium does not make it true. This was my problem with Carr.
It was assumed by the general public when he said something it was true - JUST SO NOT RIGHT!

A thread suggested a comic and he makes it part of the FBI profile on Cooper! What does this say about the investigative skills of the FBI and one agents ability to judge right from wrong?


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Jan 21, 2013, 11:51 AM)


RobertMBlevins

Jan 21, 2013, 11:52 AM
Post #40205 of 54500 (31841 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Never Too Late Georger [In reply to] Can't Post

Georger says in part:

Quote:
'Blevins is not going to stop. That is the advice of
everyone I know who have had experience with him.

He says he's only interested in "verification"!

I have no control over any of this, from the moment
he began. I am hanging on just like everyone else.
WHY would I be any different than anyone else?

Hell I barely post here any more. I wait days
sometimes, then when I do come here I have to deal with something Blevins has said or done naming me, or something that has happened to someone else because of Blevins.! Check the record...'

Look...I only said I was big on verification, not that it was my only interest. And even though we've had our differences, I still maintain that you are a smart guy and have done a lot to forward the Cooper case, to help check out this point or that. I don't hate you or anything, and I'm not trying to discourage people from posting or trash this thread.

I want you to examine my side for a moment. Consider these things:

Regina Winkles puts up a little article on Wordpress about the case. Then 400 comments show up, some with your name attached to them, some with Farf's, in fact...most of the users who inhabit this thread. The comments were extremely filthy, making hints on everything from pedophilia to my parents in Phoenix. Post after post, each worse than the last. In the end, I have to make a PDF out of the whole thing and send it to Wordpress HQ in San Francisco as well as Mark Mullenberg, co-founder of Wordpress. Then the comments are removed.

The day after I released the public version of the report on Christiansen, someone obviously from this thread posts the following review of the book by 'Max Gastineau': (Almost certainly a phony name chosen by someone who posts to this thread) I left it alone, I no longer respond to reviews.

Quote:
'Blevins should have his publishing privileges revoked at Amazon! For many reasons, but specifically for the worst when it comes to investigative reporting. He flat out told untruths about the interviews! If Blevins is going to lie about some of the basic exchanges of conversations, what else will he lie about. Even if you take away the fabrications from this book, let's address how poorly written it is. How does Blevins go from having all of his work rejected from Agents to Publishers; then open up his own publishing company with this Englishman, Geoff guy? Now there is no filter at all; Blevins work, unedited crud, is published by Adventure Books Of Seattle. I did a little more research and looked up the rest of the books Blevins wrote, then looked at their rankings...They range from 4 million down the worst chain to 1 million. That alone tells you that 99% of all he writes is terrible! Why does Geoff Nelder edit his stuff only to get a bad name for himself? Please Geoff gives us all a break and refuse to let anymore of Blevins Junior High school mentality writings make their way to Amazon. I can't believe also some of the Shill reviews that come in from Blevins himself. If you look at some of the reviewers names, a lot of them are tied to Adventure Books of Seattle and that's a No NO!..'

Whatever. Yada yada. As you can easily tell from that 'review,' it's nothing more than a pack of lies posted by someone from DZ who has a personal agenda. Because of the inconsistent use of capitalization, I could probably go back to comments on this thread and easily figure out who wrote it by comparing writing styles. I'm not bad at doing that, and I already have a pretty good idea who actually posted it. It's doubtful I will bother, though.

However, that review and the Regina article, and what sometimes goes on here, is much of the reason I finally wrote the Newsvine article. Sales actually increased after that review, because sometimes when you get personal, people considering buying the book wonder what all the fuss is about. They see a personal agenda, rather than a true review of the work. Meh.

Contrary to popular opinion, I am not absolutely convinced KC was the hijacker. I just don't know if he was, and I have said that repeatedly, not just here, but elsewhere on the internet, and to people who email me with questions.

What I see happening here on this thread is a war of personalities, and as a result, discussion on the actual case has fallen into a big, dark hole. This is not good. The attacks on my parents, Geoff Nelder, etc in the Regina article really pissed me off, as well as the accusations about lying regarding the witnesses in the book. That is, allegations that I made up their testimonies, which is simply NOT TRUE.

You asked me yesterday whether I had sent the KC report to the media with the docs and pictures. The answer is no. For the time being, I put a hold on that idea to give the Seattle FBI a chance to work with the information. But...I see now that I made a mistake in releasing a slightly sanitized version of that report to DZ. I had my doubts about doing that, and I was sincere when I kept asking your advice on whether doing that was a smart thing. When you didn't answer, I decided to go ahead and release it. Looking back, maybe not a good idea.

If anything is to be accomplished on this thread, then the War of Personalities must cease. There is a lot of BS sometimes in Cooperland, and much of it comes from people who will say and do anything in an effort to discredit anyone else. These things you say, allegedly from people who have known and worked with me, don't make sense. First, I hardly ever see or talk to anyone involved in the Cooper case, or communicate with them. I went to two Ariel celebrations, and no one knew who I was except Dona Elliot and 377 in the first one. The second, only MeyerLouie and Bruce Smith, both of whom were very nice to me. And the radio guys. I spoke to Geoff Gray just once in person, a couple of times on the phone (long time ago) and a few emails. But that's really it...as far as interaction between yours truly and Cooper Folk.

I am not the Evil One, and IMHO we just need to move beyond personalities and back to the Cooper case, otherwise this thread is doomed.


(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Jan 21, 2013, 12:46 PM)


Robert99

Jan 21, 2013, 12:18 PM
Post #40206 of 54500 (31824 views)
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Re: [skyjack71]SAME OLD JO WEBER [In reply to] Can't Post

Jo writes in post #402044:

In reply to:
I believe that once the negative elements of the thread are told to stand down that there can actually be some progress made.

Jo writes in post #402045:

In reply to:
Just because an agent made the claim about the print medium does not make it true. This was my problem with Carr.
It was assumed by the general public when he said something it was true - JUST SO NOT RIGHT!

A thread suggested a comic and he makes it part of the FBI profile on Cooper! What does this say about the investigative skills of the FBI and one agents ability to judge right from wrong?

Jo, You are completely "negative" and go ballistic when something posted here does not agree with your claims about Duane Weber.

So don't get the idea that your posts are to be accepted as Absolute Truth.

Robert99


georger

Jan 21, 2013, 12:27 PM
Post #40207 of 54500 (31822 views)
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Re: [RobertMBlevins] Blevins Revisionism. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Georger: It's funny that you now promote Citizen Sleuths, when I can go back and quote comments by you where you discount their findings, as well as Tom Kaye's credentials. Don't make me do this. There's enough problems here already. But you brought this on yourself. And now your credibility is in serious doubt.
.
I dont find any humor in this at all, as you do.
Once again you make a straw man, a false report, of
things I have said. I have never made any global
statement of the kind you attribute to me, above.
Why you engage in this Revisionism?

So, go back and dredge my comments up and quote
them! They dont add up to what you are now claiming
and attributing to ME! "Dont make me do this", you
say. WELL YES - DO IT!

Specially, all Ive ever said was:

_ I didnt agree with Toms propeller theory. I thought it
was a longshot at best, and Tom's own data doesn't
require a theory like that... because the theory
requires that the money at Tina Bar came up river,
from the Lewis River, etc etc etc. I have never seen
anything in the data that requires or supports that
happened..

_ I dont agree with Carol's linguistic theory about
Cooper based on the report Cooper said "American
currency", which may not even be a true account!
Farflung etal commented about this also -

_ I do not agree with Tom's 'bills in perfect alignment'
statement. Since Tom himself seems to turn around
and offer counter evidence in his graphic on actual bill
alignment. Toms own graphic does not agree with his
statement saying 'perfect alignment'. Or maybe there
is something Tom is saying I don't understand?

_ I made a number of statements regarding bill
alignments and offered photographic proof. [Tom has
always been free to come here and explain and
defend his statements - he doesn't for some reason
and that is his choice.

_ I disagree with Tom when he says the only logical
option left is 'hand burial'. I see other logical
possibilities which I and others (Robt99 etc) have
outlined numerous times ...

So Mr. Blevins, stop attributing global statements to
me I have never made. Stop throwing the baby out
with the bath water! I have made both negative and
positive (or positive and negative) statements
regarding the team's work.

Stop painting everyone and everything with your TAR
BRUSH!


(This post was edited by georger on Jan 21, 2013, 1:06 PM)


georger

Jan 21, 2013, 12:34 PM
Post #40208 of 54500 (31814 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] More Questions? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In elementary terms - explain the 3 types of silver that was "suspect" and how it could have got there.

1.
Did the test comfirm 3 types, 2 types or only one type of silver?

2.
Was it ever confirmed how the silver got on the money?

I have yet to read (in all of the confusion) exactly what YOU and others DID find on that money.
It is my belief that others also never got a clear picture about the 'silver'. The stories were going ever which way!

Therefore would you please address the silver again - NOW that things are more civil and not so disruptive.

What could have been the possible reasons for the silver content?

Tina's Bar
The River
Washougal
Fingerprint chemicals
Contamination by Storage

Did the anaylsis CONFIRM it was only Fingerprint Chemicals? Was this conclusive?



My personal take:

As a layman I find it very difficult to believe the money was in the water for 8 1/2 yrs. It defies common sense.

Was the silver content even questionable - or did the team just accept the FBI's claim about the silver nitrate or did the team actually conduct a test to prove or disprove them?

Just because an agent made the claim about the print medium does not make it true. This was my problem with Carr.
It was assumed by the general public when he said something it was true - JUST SO NOT RIGHT!

A thread suggested a comic and he makes it part of the FBI profile on Cooper! What does this say about the investigative skills of the FBI and one agents ability to judge right from wrong?

Well ... we can discuss these things if EVER GIVEN THE
CHANCE!

The answers I would give are very specific,
semi-technical, but easily explainable. This isn't
rocket science'!

Most of this was presented, discussed, and explained
before, years ago ...

I have to wonder if people even care now. Most
people now are way beyond all of that. ???

I seriously doubt for example, that Aamazon and
Farflung want to hear it again or think it even
germane! (My crystal set is more tuned to their
frequency these days and its a challenge in my mind;
and the minute we go there a lot of people will be left
behind, in the vaporous contrails ..... ) Its a vast
span to have to bridge somehow ... is what I think
about these days.


(This post was edited by georger on Jan 21, 2013, 1:00 PM)


georger

Jan 21, 2013, 12:50 PM
Post #40209 of 54500 (31805 views)
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Re: [RobertMBlevins] Never Too Late Georger [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I want you to examine my side for a moment. Consider these things:

Regina Winkles puts up a little article on Wordpress about the case. Then 400 comments show up, some with your name attached to them, some with Farf's, in fact...most of the users who inhabit this thread. The comments were extremely filthy, making hints on everything from pedophilia to my parents in Phoenix. Post after post, each worse than the last. In the end, I have to make a PDF out of the whole thing and send it to Wordpress HQ in San Francisco as well as Mark Mullenberg, co-founder of Wordpress. Then the comments are removed.

The day after I released the public version of the report on Christiansen, someone obviously from this thread posts the following review of the book by 'Max Gastineau': (Almost certainly a phony name chosen by someone who posts to this thread) I left it alone, I no longer respond to reviews.
Blevins: what has Winkle's website and the rest of
this nonsense got to do with ME ? Nothing. I am not
remotely interested in any of this, your personal
internet problems at websites with people here or
there et cetera ... blah blah blah. IT HAS NOTHING TO
DO WITH ME OR THIS FORUM! Sorry, but what else
am I supposed to say? That I empathize because
there are crazy people in this world that you interact
and have problems with? My advice is: change your
fishing gear ... maybe you will catch different fish?
Take off the Winkle's 12" Silver Spoon and put on a
Mini Max Wiggler - change your line from 90lb test
to 6lb mono filament, and drop the Tuna troll pole
and rig to a Cabella's pond rig ? I Don't know what else to say!

I'm not interested in what goes on On the Dark Side
of the Moon!

And I gave up my Gilbert "Listen to Signals from
Space" crystal set at age eight - so I don't even have
the gear to communicate with anymore!


RobertMBlevins

Jan 21, 2013, 1:01 PM
Post #40210 of 54500 (29370 views)
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Re: [georger] More Questions? [In reply to] Can't Post

My guess is that the silver comes from the chemical used by the FBI to dust for prints.

If the money was NOT in the water for eight and a half years, then where WAS it between the time of the jump and when it was found?

We know that a great deal of the material on Tena Bar in 1980 arrived there as a result of dredging. I have doubts on the idea that Cooper actually buried the money there, although I used to favor that idea. One reason is because if you wanted it to be found, burying it might not get the results you desired...for it to be found. Had Brian Ingram not done digging for a campfire, that money would have degraded to nothing by now. If you theorize it was a plant, then the more likely version is that the money was tossed into the river upstream inside something else. Then...it either sank and was dredged, or washed up to the spot later. I slightly favor dredging on this scenario, because it's convenient the money was found on a spot used for dredging spoils, and not just anywhere along the riverbank. What are the chances of that? And wasn't it found some distance from the waterline anyway? Hmm.

I don't think it fell from the sky, either. This would be tricky to explain how approximately three bundles would end up in the same spot with nothing else found. No body, no parachute, no briefcase/bomb combination, no bank bag, no clothing, nada. You could say that maybe the bag alone washed down the river and later three bundles were dredged to the spot, but it's a stretch. It's hard to say. Would the dredging process have left the money in the condition it was found? I don't know.

That damned money. I've always said it creates more questions than it actually answers.

Bruce Smith's update on the cyberattacks he and Cook have been getting lately is HERE. I offered to come over to his place and help him fix this problem. He says he will call if he feels it is needed. My idea was to download the free Avast security program, run a complete scan, and then switch over to Gmail and import all his previous mail and address book. If he wants to do the Full Monty, he could try downloading all his docs/pics/personal files in their folders to an external drive, flash drives, or disks. Then...re-install Windows. Then...update his drivers, especially his mouse driver, and then do all the Windows updates. Then...re-install his outside stored files and do another complete scan right down to rootkit stuff. That's all I could think of.


(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Jan 21, 2013, 2:11 PM)


377  (F 666)

Jan 21, 2013, 2:07 PM
Post #40211 of 54500 (29350 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] TO ALL - PLEASE KEEP IT PEACEFUL! [In reply to] Can't Post

Georger wrote:
Quote:
As a practical matter, I always questioned just how far
we would get, examining Cooper money. Tom's team
was able to go ahead and examine evidence at
Seattle which to my mind is the best basic work which
has been done, which could prove useful down the
road. But that kind of work is original work and
fundamentally different than what goes on here at
Dropzone. Maybe the writers should try and followup
on that and give other things a rest, for a change.

I found the tie-tanium evidence that Tom and his crew discovered very interesting. I always wondered if it could have come from Norman's machine shop where at least two of the Cooper chutes once resided or passed through. If that's true then it probably gives no clue about where Cooper worked as it didnt come from his workplace.

I wonder too if the FBI DOES have the cig butts and good Cooper DNA samples from them and that's why they so confidently reject suspects based on DNA.

They are holding back something they use to separate the wannabes from the real DBC.

377


377  (F 666)

Jan 21, 2013, 2:11 PM
Post #40212 of 54500 (29344 views)
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Re: [377] TO ALL - PLEASE KEEP IT PEACEFUL! [In reply to] Can't Post

The above was my response to G's suggestion that we concentrate on evidence. Let's try to stop the bickering for a while and do what he suggested.

Any other thoughts on the titanium found on the alleged Cooper tie?

I give Bruce a lot of credit for pusuing the whole Norman chutes matter and turning up something new rather than just rehashing old stuff. If it were not for Bruce I'd have bought the Cossy line that the chutes were all his.

377


377  (F 666)

Jan 21, 2013, 2:14 PM
Post #40213 of 54500 (29340 views)
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Re: [RobertMBlevins] More Questions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Belvins wrote
Quote:
That damned money. I've always said it creates more questions than it actually answers.

So very very true. When the news of the money find broke I was elated. I was sure that it would help solve the case and things would move fast. How wrong I was. It has only added to the mystery.

377


(This post was edited by 377 on Jan 21, 2013, 2:14 PM)


RobertMBlevins

Jan 21, 2013, 2:14 PM
Post #40214 of 54500 (29336 views)
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Re: [377] TO ALL - PLEASE KEEP IT PEACEFUL! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The above was my response to G's suggestion that we concentrate on evidence. Let's try to stop the bickering for a while and do what he suggested.

Any other thoughts on the titanium found on the alleged Cooper tie?

I give Bruce a lot of credit for pusuing the whole Norman chutes matter and turning up something new rather than just rehashing old stuff. If it were not for Bruce I'd have bought the Cossy line that the chutes were all his.

377

I don't have much to offer on this titanium idea. It's occurred to me that Bernie Geestman worked as a marine mechanic for a lot of years (heavy use of titanium in ships) and also for Boeing on the 727 program. But...thousands of people worked for Boeing at that time, too. And the type of titanium found might not match anything Geestman worked with. I'm also certain BG wasn't the hijacker anyway. Crazy

I don't know...

377 says in part:

Quote:
'I wonder too if the FBI DOES have the cig butts and good Cooper DNA samples from them and that's why they so confidently reject suspects based on DNA.

They are holding back something they use to separate the wannabes from the real DBC...'

I'm not sure if I agree on the DNA part. SA Fred Gutt was pretty explicit on this point. He told me that the sample can eliminate someone, but cannot absolutely match a suspect's DNA sample to the sample they have. It's only a partial sample or something. I don't claim to be a DNA expert, either. Georger probably understands what Gutt meant better than I do.

However...if the FBI does have the cig butts, then I would say the chances they have a full sample are good. Gutt only addressed the tie sample, so who is to say? I agree they are probably holding at least one or two items back from the public. They always do this, and for the reason you stated...to keep a hole card with which to eliminate wannabes and false confessors.


(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Jan 21, 2013, 2:22 PM)


377  (F 666)

Jan 21, 2013, 2:21 PM
Post #40215 of 54500 (29333 views)
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Re: [RobertMBlevins] TO ALL - PLEASE KEEP IT PEACEFUL! [In reply to] Can't Post

Blevins wrote:
Quote:
(heavy use of titanium in ships)

Not that I've seen. Lots of stainless and aluminum on boats but titanium is too expensive to use on commercial vessels where weight isnt a huge factor.

Geestman worked on Foss tugs. I doubt if they had any titanium on them pre 1971. Tugs of that era were not about weight, they were about power and strength. If you don't care about weight, steel is a lot cheaper, very strong and much much easier to work with as far as welding and machining goes.

As I recall Tom said it was pure, not alloyed, titanium which shoud narrow the source down.

The Navy can afford titanium, after all they spend not earn. Profit doesnt matter:

Quote:
United States: The University of New Orleans has been awarded a three-year US$4.8 million grant from the Office of Naval Research to advance the science and technology of titanium shipbuilding.

The research will be focused on the manufacturability and structural performance of a titanium mid-ship section. Both material requirements and advanced welding processes, such as high-speed MIG welding and friction stir welding, will be investigated for applications in titanium ship hull construction.

Math-based design for fabrication techniques will be developed to support both build strategy and construction of a titanium mid-ship section from piece part fabrication and interim production definition to final structural assembly of a titanium mid-ship section.

Titanium alloys offer many advantages for ship hull applications compared to traditional structural steels and aluminum alloys. For example, titanium alloys are more resistant to corrosion, have a high strength-to-weight ratio and a high resistance to fatigue.

I've read on websites that titanium is used in marine engines but I never come across it in commercial diesels back in the DBC era. Tug engines of that era were big brute diesels that did not turn high RPMs. EMD, ALCO, Sulzer and others made them. Sure you could make titanium pistons and save a little fuel but I never saw it done in that class of engine.

The only place I saw titanium used was in brine chillers on tuna boats because it had spectacular corrosion resistance which was needed to work in super saturated salt water.

377


(This post was edited by 377 on Jan 21, 2013, 2:33 PM)


RobertMBlevins

Jan 21, 2013, 2:51 PM
Post #40216 of 54500 (29323 views)
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Re: [377] TO ALL - PLEASE KEEP IT PEACEFUL! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Blevins wrote:
Quote:
(heavy use of titanium in ships)

Not that I've seen. Lots of stainless and aluminum on boats but titanium is too expensive to use on commercial vessels where weight isnt a huge factor.

Geestman worked on Foss tugs. I doubt if they had any titanium on them pre 1971. Tugs of that era were not about weight, they were about power and strength. If you don't care about weight, steel is a lot cheaper, very strong and much much easier to work with as far as welding and machining goes.

As I recall Tom said it was pure, not alloyed, titanium which shoud narrow the source down.

The Navy can afford titanium, after all they spend not earn. Profit doesnt matter:

Quote:
United States: The University of New Orleans has been awarded a three-year US$4.8 million grant from the Office of Naval Research to advance the science and technology of titanium shipbuilding.

The research will be focused on the manufacturability and structural performance of a titanium mid-ship section. Both material requirements and advanced welding processes, such as high-speed MIG welding and friction stir welding, will be investigated for applications in titanium ship hull construction.

Math-based design for fabrication techniques will be developed to support both build strategy and construction of a titanium mid-ship section from piece part fabrication and interim production definition to final structural assembly of a titanium mid-ship section.

Titanium alloys offer many advantages for ship hull applications compared to traditional structural steels and aluminum alloys. For example, titanium alloys are more resistant to corrosion, have a high strength-to-weight ratio and a high resistance to fatigue.

I've read on websites that titanium is used in marine engines but I never come across it in commercial diesels back in the DBC era. Tug engines of that era were big brute diesels that did not turn high RPMs. EMD, ALCO, Sulzer and others made them. Sure you could make titanium pistons and save a little fuel but I never saw it done in that class of engine.

The only place I saw titanium used was in brine chillers on tuna boats because it had spectacular corrosion resistance which was needed to work in super saturated salt water.

377

Maybe some piping, maybe propellers. I am not sure. I did find this, though, which sounded interesting:

Quote:
'Oregon Metallurgical Company, known as Oremet, is one of only two companies in the United States that produce titanium sponge, the pure form of the rare metal used to produce titanium alloys for use in manufacturing. The company also forges titanium products for aerospace, medical, electronics, and other applications. Although nearly half of the company's sales in 1996 were for commercial or military aerospace applications, Oremet also was the leading provider of titanium for use in the manufacture of golf clubs, which accounted for 20 percent of sales. The Albany, Oregon-based company operates titanium metals service centers in the United States, United Kingdom, Germany, and Canada through Titanium Industries, Inc., an 80 percent-owned subsidiary. The only other U.S. producer of titanium sponge is Denver-based Titanium Metals Corporation, the industry leader...'

Oremet's been around pre-DBC. Reviewing again Citizen Sleuths' entries on the tie, I would still wonder if the tie originally belonged to someone who worked at some point for Boeing. This doesn't narrow it down much. Just before the Big Boeing Crash, the Boeing workforce numbered 84,000 and dropped by nearly 60,000. Uck.

My father was a tool-and-die maker at Boeing for a number of years, and was a victim of the layoffs. He used to come home with chips and those metal spiral flakes on his clothes. No...he wasn't Cooper. Smile

Funny Story #14: My dad comes home from Boeing one night with a little bottle of clear liquid with a brush in the cap. He says, "Hey, Bob...come here, I want to show you something called 'Eastman 410'..."

Robert: "Okay."

Dad: "Hold out your thumb."

Robert: (Stupidly does as he is told)

Dad: (Puts a big drop on my thumb) "Now squeeze your finger to your thumb and hold it there for a minute."

Robert: (See previous)

Dad: "Now try to move your finger."

Of course, they were glued solidly together and I eventually had to work them apart. Took a half hour. My dad got a big laugh out of it, although my mother was pissed off at him for doing it. Smile


(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Jan 21, 2013, 3:24 PM)


377  (F 666)

Jan 21, 2013, 3:47 PM
Post #40217 of 54500 (29305 views)
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Re: [RobertMBlevins] TO ALL - PLEASE KEEP IT PEACEFUL! [In reply to] Can't Post

Worth another read. Tom's titanium findings.

http://www.citizensleuths.com/titaniumparticles.html

377


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jan 21, 2013, 4:48 PM
Post #40218 of 54500 (29293 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] TO ALL - PLEASE KEEP IT PEACEFUL! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please guys - COOL it! Please
PRETTY PLEASE! This is what shut down the thread before!

In reply to:

I 2nd the Motion...all in favor?


Hey Grumpy d00ds~

...ever hear about the time the guy that owns the site shut the WHOLE THING down for a couple/few days because he rightfully felt several certain individuals MUST be loosing their minds to be acting so idiotic on the internet?!

It was a good move in my opinion, got people to get away from the keyboard of hate and get a little perspective.


There REALLY ARE people reading through this stuff that are interested in the known facts as well as the possible theories...the idiotically childish bickering & blatant personal attacks add less than nothing.

They take away credibility and respect for anything 'else' you add to the thread of a positive nature.

Stuff on the net is kinda there forEVER, ya really want folks years from now paging through thinkin'

~ 'What An Asshole' Angelic

Well, you tried, it didn't even last one post.
Crazy

Matt


skyjack71

Jan 21, 2013, 4:49 PM
Post #40219 of 54500 (29292 views)
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Re: [Robert99] SAME OLD JO WEBER [In reply to] Can't Post

Jo writes in post #402044:

In reply to:
I believe that once the negative elements of the thread are told to stand down that there can actually be some progress made.

I STAND by that statement!


Jo writes in post #402045:

In reply to:
This was my problem with Carr.
It was assumed by the general public when he said something it was true - JUST SO NOT RIGHT!


I STAND by that statement!


In reply to:
A thread suggested a comic and he makes it part of the FBI profile on Cooper! What does this say about the investigative skills of the FBI and one agents ability to judge right from wrong?

I STAND by that statement!
LaughTongueFrownMadUnsureShockedLaughLaugh
Robert the kind of trivia you are picking on is exactly what is wrong right now. It is everyone trying to PICK apart in segments what others are trying to say or do say. THIS IS WHAT THIS FORUM NEEDS TO GET AWAY FROM!

You can be part of a pro-active action going forward or you can live in the past! Your last few posts have been of this same nature. I will call it - (Let's pick apart Jo).

I am certainly NOT being negative at this point or have you even bothered to notice.

Any posts I make are my own deduction from my research and what others write and say. One thing for sure - I do not fabricate evidence or make up things for the sake of a "story".

What I know and post about Weber is the truth and so far NO one has been able to provide any supporting evidence to the contrary.

If you will note my last posts have NOT been about Weber. Now it is taking the information the thread has been provided for the last few yrs and sort it out in an orderly manner without any of us having to make replies such as this one to set the record straight.

I do NOT and have NEVER expected anyone to accept my posts as the absolute truth considering the evidence or the case - only what I write about what I WITNESSED and WHAT I WAS TOLD and MY opinions about what the summary of that means. All so what I saw with my own eyes and held in my own hands.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Jan 21, 2013, 4:53 PM)


377  (F 666)

Jan 21, 2013, 4:58 PM
Post #40220 of 54500 (29285 views)
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Re: [377] TO ALL - PLEASE KEEP IT PEACEFUL! [In reply to] Can't Post

From Toms website:

Quote:
Fact: All titanium used in aircraft is alloyed and the Cooper material was pure titanium.
Interpretation: Due to the lack of alloyed titanium, Cooper did not work in the aircraft industry.

Fact: Spiral chips of aluminum and other exotic metals like bismuth and stainless steel were found on the tie.
Fact: Spiral aluminum chips of the type found on the tie are made in metal fabrication plants that use lathes and drill presses.
Interpretation: Cooper worked in or had access to, an exotic metal fabrication facility that contained titanium, aluminum and other specialty metals.

Quote:
Fact: All titanium used in aircraft is alloyed and the Cooper material was pure titanium.
Interpretation: Due to the lack of alloyed titanium, Cooper did not work in the aircraft industry.

emphasis supplied.

377


RobertMBlevins

Jan 21, 2013, 5:01 PM
Post #40221 of 54500 (29280 views)
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Re: [377] TO ALL - PLEASE KEEP IT PEACEFUL! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Worth another read. Tom's titanium findings.

http://www.citizensleuths.com/titaniumparticles.html

377

Yes. Does it seem to you that since the original findings were posted by CS, that they have been edited to a small degree? I thought there was more on 'titanium sponge' or something. I know how to find out, and I will check. You can get original snapshots of webpages from Internet Archive's Wayback Machine.

Hey...the reason I posted that dumb funny story back there was just to lighten the thread. Better than negativity. Smile

EDIT: Side by side comparison with a Wayback shot and the current page at CS on 'Titanium particles' indicates no changes to the page.


(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Jan 21, 2013, 5:08 PM)


377  (F 666)

Jan 21, 2013, 5:04 PM
Post #40222 of 54500 (29276 views)
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Re: [377] TO ALL - PLEASE KEEP IT PEACEFUL! [In reply to] Can't Post

Bismuth is used in sleeve bearings. Some was found on Cooper's alleged tie. It is a constituent in Babbit bearing materials, types 10, 11 and 12, but only .08%

From Wikipredia
Quote:
Bismuth has few commercial applications, none of which is particularly large. Taking the US as an example, 884 tonnes of bismuth were consumed in 2010, of which 63% went into chemicals (including pharmaceuticals, pigments, and cosmetics), 26% into metallurgical additives for casting and galvanizing,[54] 7% into bismuth alloys, solders and ammunition, and the balance into research and other uses.[45]

Some manufacturers use Bismuth as a substitute in equipment for potable water systems such as valves to meet "lead-free" mandates in the U.S. (starts in 2014). This is a fairly large application since it covers all residential and commercial building construction.

In the early 1990s, researchers began to evaluate bismuth as a nontoxic replacement for lead in various applications.


I still wonder if Norman's chutes were contaminated with shavings and other residue from his machine shop and picked up by Cooper's tie when he handled the chute.

Bruce, any chance of re-engaging Norman and asking him whether he worked with pure (not alloyed) titanium and some of the other metals found by Tom?

377


(This post was edited by 377 on Jan 21, 2013, 5:16 PM)


skyjack71

Jan 21, 2013, 5:13 PM
Post #40223 of 54500 (29264 views)
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Re: [georger] More Questions? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Well ... we can discuss these things if EVER GIVEN THE
CHANCE!

The answers I would give are very specific,
semi-technical, but easily explainable. This isn't
rocket science'!

Most of this was presented, discussed, and explained
before, years ago ...

The major problem with what has been presented on the thread has been seeing it drowned in the gobbly gook which all of us are quilty of having contributed to.

It would be nice if all of the postings would stay on one subject allowing it to be fully understood - pros and cons.

Understood that this WAS discussed at a later date, but there was so much intervention and bantering - that there is no longer a concize statement or presentation about the research done on the money. Questions asked and Questions answered are lost withing the Gobbly gook of myself and others.

Ideas and opinions where bouncing off the wall in the thread and the facts of the study were buried beneath all of that.

Of course myself and others came to defend "our cause" and that did not help. I just want to see the thread become the GO TO site for studies about the actual crime and a reliable place everyone can go explore this old crime.

I am trying to turn this thread around and I wish others would follow suit instead of attacking and tearing everyone down and promoting there own cause.


Unsure
Delayed PS

Note, I go to the 1st unread post by me and then answer them as I go. It seems that 377 has addressed all of this in the prior posts above. Thank you.

Rereading my post above I will let it stand! So very GLAD that most of you are trying to follow self-imposed rules. Let's make this the BEST ever GO TO post for Cooper!


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Jan 21, 2013, 5:26 PM)


RobertMBlevins

Jan 21, 2013, 5:22 PM
Post #40224 of 54500 (29254 views)
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Re: [377] TO ALL - PLEASE KEEP IT PEACEFUL! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Bismuth is used in sleeve bearings. Some was found on Cooper's alleged tie. It is a constituent in Babbit bearing materials, types 10, 11 and 12, but only .08%

From Wikipredia
Quote:
Bismuth has few commercial applications, none of which is particularly large. Taking the US as an example, 884 tonnes of bismuth were consumed in 2010, of which 63% went into chemicals (including pharmaceuticals, pigments, and cosmetics), 26% into metallurgical additives for casting and galvanizing,[54] 7% into bismuth alloys, solders and ammunition, and the balance into research and other uses.[45]

Some manufacturers use Bismuth as a substitute in equipment for potable water systems such as valves to meet "lead-free" mandates in the U.S. (starts in 2014). This is a fairly large application since it covers all residential and commercial building construction.

In the early 1990s, researchers began to evaluate bismuth as a nontoxic replacement for lead in various applications.


I still wonder if Norman's chutes were contaminated with shavings and other residue from his machine shop and picked up by Cooper's tie when he handled the chute.

Bruce, any chance of re-engaging Norman and asking him whether he worked with pure (not alloyed) titanium and some of the other metals found by Tom?

377

One of the problems with the tie evidence is the question of how many people handled it between 1971 and when Kaye and his team were allowed to examine it. For now, I think I can go with the idea that any exotic metals present on it should be granted an exception: That they didn't end up there as a result of touching by someone in the FBI. You could go down that road all day and it would solve nothing. Might want to ask Kaye's opinion on whether at least some of the particles were embedded in such a way that might preclude simple touching as the reason for their presence.


skyjack71

Jan 21, 2013, 5:48 PM
Post #40225 of 54500 (29241 views)
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Golf Clubs [In reply to] Can't Post

This was an article quoted by Blevins and I have made bold and highlighted ONE thing that STANDS OUT - Loud and Clear.

Quote:
'Oregon Metallurgical Company, known as Oremet, is one of only two companies in the United States that produce titanium sponge, the pure form of the rare metal used to produce titanium alloys for use in manufacturing. The company also forges titanium products for aerospace, medical, electronics, and other applications. Although nearly half of the company's sales in 1996 were for commercial or military aerospace applications, Oremet also was the leading provider of titanium for use in the manufacture of golf clubs, which accounted for 20 percent of sales. The Albany, Oregon-based company operates titanium metals service centers in the United States, United Kingdom, Germany, and Canada through Titanium Industries, Inc., an 80 percent-owned subsidiary. The only other U.S. producer of titanium sponge is Denver-based Titanium Metals Corporation, the industry leader...'

So glad I never ever sold that set of Clubs Duane got on a special trip to Vail or Aspen. He made me sit in the car when he went into the shop. If you guys will check back on a post I made yrs ago - I mentioned these Golf Clubs - now do not remember were we went. They were Custom Made for Duane by someone he used to know! He did NOT allow me to go with him into the shop and since that was all we were doing at that time - I stayed in the car.

Golf Clubs! How interesting that Blevins brought this up. I think we discussed it before.

Were in the world would someone wear a tie while working with metal other than in a HIGH END RESORT and making clubs for the elite...even if he removed the tie - the remanents would be all over it?

Normally someone working with that kind of equipment DOES not wear a tie. If he took it off and on - and if the shop catered to HIGH END. If he made the Clubs right there - when measuring the height of the person and their stance!

I do not remember the time frame of the trip - since I took no pictures - I do not remember. The trip was specifically to go deliver something to a friend and he returned with the clubs. WE parked across the street. I do not believe I went into a shop anywhere, but it was OFF season - things were quiet. I may just have curled up and went to sleep. Do not remember the day or the month. I remember the streets where quiet.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Jan 21, 2013, 6:14 PM)


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