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DB Cooper

 

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377  (F 666)

Nov 19, 2012, 10:58 AM
Post #37926 of 55489 (35576 views)
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Re: [Farflung] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Here’s a bunch of cheap LF equipment which was sold at Radio Shacks and Sears which is small, portable and tunable across a vast spectrum

It takes a very long antenna to do justice to transmitted signals in the LF MF bands.

Short coil-loaded subsitutes are just so-so. When you are trying to get a DF shot on a weak LF or MF signal with a loop antenna if the signal is weak the null is very broad, giving you huge uncertainty in your bearing. Strong sigs give sharp nulls and good accuracy. I remeber shooting the Farallon Island beacon on 318 KHz from 100 miles out. The null was so wide that it was almost useless. As I got closer then signal got stronger and the bearing null became very sharp. As I recall the beacon was 100 watts and had a big tower vertical antenna.

That's why I am so interested in finding out if the MAC SOG jumpers in Nam were able to use essentially AM broadcast band very low power sigs to rendevous. Conventional wisdom would lead you to much higher freqs where small antennas work well. Maybe they thought out of the box and made it work.

377


Amazon  (D License)

Nov 19, 2012, 11:07 AM
Post #37927 of 55489 (35571 views)
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Re: [Robert99] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
8. Could Cooper have had a homing device on him
so that anyone within 5 miles of where he landed
could determine his location (Fank Heyl's profile)?

Very unlikely. No GPS back then. Best you could do is use a radio direction finder to get a bearing on a signal, but that doesn't work well over irregular terrain. Just gives you an approximate bearing, no range info.

McCoy's rigs had govt supplied beacons implanted by Perry Stevens, a rigger in Oakland CA. Most likely they were military bailout beacons on 243.0 MHz. Some USAF planes (eg HC 130H) were equipped with UHF ADFs that could get a bearing on that frequency. The problems of reflecting signals off terrain is minimized when the bearings are taken from aloft.

377
__________________________________________________

That answers that question -- two more questions for you 377: could DBC have brought on board 305, either in the briefcase or in the paperbag, a bailout type beacon (the flares maybe)? If so, could a land vehicle be equipped and capable of getting a bearing on that bailout beacon frequency? Thanks. MeyerLouie

MeyerLouie, Let me see if I can help answer your questions. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, emergency locator transmitter beacons (ELTs) were just being introduced into small general aviation aircraft.

I don't remember the year that they were mandated by the FAA, but some of the early ELTs were very small and could be, and were, mounted on the side of the baggage compartment of even the smallest aircraft (such as Cessna 150s). You could almost carry these things in your shirt pocket based on their size.

They had to be mounted in a direction such that longitudinal impact forces would force a weight forward to turn on the transmitter switch during accidents. And the pilot was responsible for seeing that the ELTs were not activated as a part of his shut down check list at the end of a flight.

These ELTs operated on 121.5 and 243.0 on the VHF and UHF bands, respectively, when activated.

To locate aircraft after an accident, the search aircraft would ideally have a VHF/UHF "direction finder" capability. Military search aircraft had such a capability. Perhaps 377 knows if such a piece of equipment was available to general aviation and ships in that time frame.

But Cooper could easily have had one of these ELTs in his paper bag or coat pocket. However, anyone who wanted to locate him would need the "direction finder" end of the system.

Robert99

My experience with quite a bit of usage of PRC 34 and PRC 90 survival radios.. and the small transmitters in parachutes that are set to go off on deployment or set off inadvertently ( by someone in life support or elsewhere near the flightline) is a whole lot of scrambling by any and everyone who monitors those frequencies in the area.

If anyone is suggesting those were used..please... put that thought to rest because. EVERY military reciever from Portland to Seattle ( and that is a WHOLE lot) would have been going off on active duty and guard and reservebases who monitor it for military aircraft emergencies.


Farflung

Nov 19, 2012, 11:52 AM
Post #37928 of 55489 (35566 views)
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Re: [377] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

Nope, I didn’t miss it 377. It was your suggestion of designing a UHF/VHF DF system I was responding to.

Why use that spectrum? It’s filled with comms already and DF systems were already available, off the shelf, for the low frequency spectrum.

If I had to improvise something, I would choose some low freq beacon on a small breadboard, powered by the batteries in the briefcase, with a wire antenna. In fact, I would use the beacon as part of the ‘bomb’ with wires and scary stuff in the briefcase. Killing two birds with one stone, I really am driven by my greed and laziness. Why spend that time and effort when something already offers the 80% solution? Foxhunt gear.

True statement about the nulls and antenna efficiency in the low frequencies. Also true about navigation being near worthless at greater distances. What should be the anticipated ambiguity of Cooper’s jump with an accomplice? Ten miles, twenty miles or one hundred? How much power and antenna height/efficiency would you need for something in the ten mile category? Is the beacon going to have different propagation requirements from a walkie-talkie? Why? Power and antenna efficiencies are relative to design requirements. What’s required for something to work in the Cooper environment?

I would like to see a simple and honest matrix, of how various RF devices would perform. But I know I’ll just see some select favorites, just like the money arriving at Tena Bar puzzle.

Unfortunately this is the same animal as what the subject of dredging does to money at Tena Bar. If someone doesn’t like it, they issue some baseless declaration (code for: lie) that it is impossible or too complex. Funny how walkie-talkies are so popular with such limited range and exposure to detection, or that beacons are implausible since, well, there hasn’t been a movie or TV show with beacons so they don’t exist.

No matter the device, I’m going to start with simple. Before designing the ultimate HF beam with a reflector, I want to know how a roll of copper wire would perform. Oh it’s a little inefficient, then gin up the dilithium crystals with watts till the wires melt. Remember in automotive terms, there’s no replacement, for displacement.


377  (F 666)

Nov 19, 2012, 12:20 PM
Post #37929 of 55489 (35558 views)
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Re: [Farflung] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

Gargling wrote
Quote:
If I had to improvise something, I would choose some low freq beacon on a small breadboard, powered by the batteries in the briefcase, with a wire antenna. In fact, I would use the beacon as part of the ‘bomb’ with wires and scary stuff in the briefcase. Killing two birds with one stone, I really am driven by my greed and laziness. Why spend that time and effort when something already offers the 80% solution? Foxhunt gear.

Hmmm... I think I see a new project to pursue in 2013. I've already made HAHO radio jumps with a walkie talkie and reached stations up to 100 miles away. I've jumped with an asymmetric bag strapped to me to test freefall stability. I've jumped from the rear stairway of a DC 9 passenger jet. OK, I admit it, I am obsessed.

I'm going to look through my junkbox and see what I can come up with for a low power BC band beacon. Then a field test to check reception distance and DF-ability. A wire antenna is a good idea for the transmitter. Stay tuned.

Again, zero proof that Cooper used radios. I'm just indulging a fantasy.

377


(This post was edited by 377 on Nov 19, 2012, 1:27 PM)


Robert99

Nov 19, 2012, 12:41 PM
Post #37930 of 55489 (35552 views)
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Re: [Amazon] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
8. Could Cooper have had a homing device on him
so that anyone within 5 miles of where he landed
could determine his location (Fank Heyl's profile)?

Very unlikely. No GPS back then. Best you could do is use a radio direction finder to get a bearing on a signal, but that doesn't work well over irregular terrain. Just gives you an approximate bearing, no range info.

McCoy's rigs had govt supplied beacons implanted by Perry Stevens, a rigger in Oakland CA. Most likely they were military bailout beacons on 243.0 MHz. Some USAF planes (eg HC 130H) were equipped with UHF ADFs that could get a bearing on that frequency. The problems of reflecting signals off terrain is minimized when the bearings are taken from aloft.

377
__________________________________________________

That answers that question -- two more questions for you 377: could DBC have brought on board 305, either in the briefcase or in the paperbag, a bailout type beacon (the flares maybe)? If so, could a land vehicle be equipped and capable of getting a bearing on that bailout beacon frequency? Thanks. MeyerLouie

MeyerLouie, Let me see if I can help answer your questions. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, emergency locator transmitter beacons (ELTs) were just being introduced into small general aviation aircraft.

I don't remember the year that they were mandated by the FAA, but some of the early ELTs were very small and could be, and were, mounted on the side of the baggage compartment of even the smallest aircraft (such as Cessna 150s). You could almost carry these things in your shirt pocket based on their size.

They had to be mounted in a direction such that longitudinal impact forces would force a weight forward to turn on the transmitter switch during accidents. And the pilot was responsible for seeing that the ELTs were not activated as a part of his shut down check list at the end of a flight.

These ELTs operated on 121.5 and 243.0 on the VHF and UHF bands, respectively, when activated.

To locate aircraft after an accident, the search aircraft would ideally have a VHF/UHF "direction finder" capability. Military search aircraft had such a capability. Perhaps 377 knows if such a piece of equipment was available to general aviation and ships in that time frame.

But Cooper could easily have had one of these ELTs in his paper bag or coat pocket. However, anyone who wanted to locate him would need the "direction finder" end of the system.

Robert99

My experience with quite a bit of usage of PRC 34 and PRC 90 survival radios.. and the small transmitters in parachutes that are set to go off on deployment or set off inadvertently ( by someone in life support or elsewhere near the flightline) is a whole lot of scrambling by any and everyone who monitors those frequencies in the area.

If anyone is suggesting those were used..please... put that thought to rest because. EVERY military reciever from Portland to Seattle ( and that is a WHOLE lot) would have been going off on active duty and guard and reservebases who monitor it for military aircraft emergencies.

Amazon, 377, Farflung, and others:

Let me add a paragraph or two here that should have been added to my original post.

I am NOT recommending that ELTs or beacons of any kind that operate on 121.5 and 243.0 would have been used in the hijacking.

There are several very good reasons for this:

1. As Amazon points out, just about ever military aircraft radio communication set in existence automatically monitors those emergency frequencies and so do most air traffic control facilities. This probably makes them the most monitored frequencies on the planet. At the present time, they are also monitered by satellites.

2. And as Farflung and Amazon both point out, about 97 percent (I thought it was closer to 100 percent) of the alarms from ELTs and beacons during their initial introduction were in fact false.

3. The C-130 following the hijacked airliner was described as a "Search and Rescue" aircraft. Although I haven't seen it in writing anywhere, this probably means that it had direction finding capabilities for these emergency frequencies.

4. There is no record of anyone's transmitter going off on these emergency frequencies during the hijacking and flight to Reno.

5. Cooper rejected military parachutes from the USAF at McChord AFB. It was common knowledge at that time that the USAF pilots and crewmen in Southeast Asia were using parachutes with radio beacons and that they could be tracked by search and rescue aircraft. Cooper may have known this, guessed that the McChord chutes would be so equipped, and he would probably would have been right (thanks to the efforts of the FBI).

6. The poster that I was originally responding to essentially asked if it was possible to track a transmitter with a piece of equipment that had a direction finding capability. As 377 has pointed out, the short answer is "Yes" but it would be a dumb thing to do in the Cooper hijacking.

7. The Hale Boggs disappearance was only one factor in introducing ELTs into general aviation usage. In fact, Don Jonz, Bogg's pilot, had an ELT.

Searchers found it safe and secure on his desk back at the airport of departure. I suppose this helped the powers that be realize that it would be a better idea to put the ELTs in the aircraft. Sometimes science progresses rather slowly.

Robert99


377  (F 666)

Nov 19, 2012, 1:23 PM
Post #37931 of 55489 (35539 views)
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Re: [Robert99] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The C-130 following the hijacked airliner was described as a "Search and Rescue" aircraft. Although I haven't seen it in writing anywhere, this probably means that it had direction finding capabilities for these emergency frequencies.

If it was indeed a USAF/ANG SAR Herc then it was likely an HC 130 which DID have a good UHF ADF. It may even have been equipped with one of the the best airborne UHF ADFs ever made, the ARD-17, specially designed for tracking Apollo capsules and capable of DFing on 243.0 MHz.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/...10201_1975010201.pdf

I've always found it amusing that F 106 interceptors scrambled to find the 727 couldnt... and a lumbering Herky Bird did. Bet those fighter jocks had a hard time with that.

377


georger

Nov 19, 2012, 1:27 PM
Post #37932 of 55489 (35530 views)
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Re: [Robert99] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

 
5. Cooper rejected military parachutes from the USAF at McChord AFB. It was common knowledge at that time that the USAF pilots and crewmen in Southeast Asia were using parachutes with radio beacons and that they could be tracked by search and rescue aircraft. Cooper may have known this, guessed that the McChord chutes would be so equipped, and he would probably would have been right (thanks to the efforts of the FBI).
Robert99
I think 5 above is a very good point.. I thnk we know??? the chutes from McChord were not forthcoming anyway, thus had to resort to a private supplier ?


georger

Nov 19, 2012, 1:33 PM
Post #37933 of 55489 (35521 views)
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Re: [377] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

 
That's why I am so interested in finding out if the MAC SOG jumpers in Nam were able to use essentially AM broadcast band very low power sigs to rendevous. Conventional wisdom would lead you to much higher freqs where small antennas work well. Maybe they thought out of the box and made it work.

377
Im willing to bet they didn't. Efficiency very very low.
Distance zero. Natural Interference. Selectivity.
Antenna issues. etc etc. You might as well conduct
SETI on AM ... or VLF for that matter. Out of the box
at those wavelengths would be the submarine vlf
nets which require power like a small M-class star
and underground antennas strung from the North
Pole to the South Pole! And rattle the teeth and the
brain cells of reindeer herds. Something that could
tap into that system and be heard for a relay back ..
that would be 'out of the box' at those low freqs
and cost the GNP of Portugal!


(This post was edited by georger on Nov 19, 2012, 1:47 PM)


377  (F 666)

Nov 19, 2012, 1:48 PM
Post #37934 of 55489 (35504 views)
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Re: [georger] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's why I am so interested in finding out if the MAC SOG jumpers in Nam were able to use essentially AM broadcast band very low power sigs to rendevous. Conventional wisdom would lead you to much higher freqs where small antennas work well. Maybe they thought out of the box and made it work.

377

Im willing to bet they didn't. Efficiency very very low.
Distance zero. Natural Interference. Selectivity.
Antenna issues. etc etc. You might as well conduct
SETI on AM ... or VLF for that matter. Out of the box
at those wavelengths would be the submarine vlf
nets which require power like a small M-class star
and underground antennas strung from the North
Pole to the South Pole! And rattle the teeth of
reindeer herds. Something that could tap
into that system and be heard for a relay back ..
that would be 'out of the box' at those low freqs
and cost the GNP of Portugal!
Generally I agree with your logic, but distance isnt "zero" G. I've heard these things up to a mile away and they are only running at 0.1 watts on AM BC band:

http://www.talkinghouse.com/realestateradio.php

http://www.iamradio.net/...OperationsManual.pdf

Never tried to DF one. Going to try that sometime soon.

377


(This post was edited by 377 on Nov 19, 2012, 1:53 PM)


377  (F 666)

Nov 19, 2012, 1:59 PM
Post #37935 of 55489 (35861 views)
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Re: [377] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

a Snowmman post from 2009:
Quote:
1) http://www.don-valentine.com/...%20and%20Vietnam.htm

"When Delta was experimenting with infiltration methods for our recon teams, we tried using beacons to help assemble the team after they parachuted into the thick jungle. We packed all of the rucksacks into a bundle and rigged a radio beacon to the bundle with its antenna taped to one of the parachute suspension lines.

After the teams reached the ground, they were always scattered and disoriented. First of all, they had to survive a night tree landing in very tall trees, which is very risky, then they had to climb down the tree to reach the ground.

We issued each man a small civilian transistor radio to help them locate the beacon. We had the frequency range of the radio "stretched" so it would pick up the beacon signal. When you held the radio right side up with its narrow side pointing towards the beacon, the beacon signal was the loudest.

Unfortunately, either narrow side produced the same results so you could not tell which way was correct. The only way to know for sure was to walk a good distance and aim your radio again. If the signal was getting stronger, you were okay. If it was getting weaker, you had to turn around and go in the opposite direction.

It took three days to assemble an RT using this method. Delta dropped that idea and kept experimenting. Try as we might, we never came up with an effective way to surreptitiously insert an RT into a thick jungle canopy. The lurps had to find open spaces large enough for the chopper to land or blast an LZ with 2,000 pound bombs."

Link seems to be dead now.

377


(This post was edited by 377 on Nov 19, 2012, 2:01 PM)


Farflung

Nov 19, 2012, 2:35 PM
Post #37936 of 55489 (35842 views)
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Re: [377] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

This is what I would expect for a person on the ground with a small receiver, trying to DF something which is just as ‘lost’.

Cooper’s requirements would be different in that the DF unit is a car (knows where it is), roughly limited to roads, which sounds obvious, but drives the real need for azimuth accuracy. Which is relatively low in this application.

Initially you just need to know if you are heading towards Cooper and the road needs to head in that direction also. Aircraft and vessels don’t have this restriction.

After looking at the road network around Lake Merwin, I don’t see a massive advantage to having the lobes reduced to much less than 90 degrees. You only know if Cooper is fore or aft, then perhaps left or right of whatever road. It’s not like there are dozens of options or even dozens of miles between the roads.

From Lewis River Road (north side of Lake Merwin), you only have seven or eight options for traveling north. Once you’re on one of these roads, you really have left or right of the vehicle, then about two miles to walk to a parallel road. At that point you could haul out the walkie-talkie or honk the horn for such a short distance. But a very primitive system, used in a similar road network, appears to look like it could narrow things down to a few square miles.

No VC to dodge, no ground fire, no E&E stuff, unless that’s your normal mode of travel. Although it’s human nature to ‘gold plate’ everything, their budgets typically deliver something plastic, cheap and disposable. Look at your cell phone.


377  (F 666)

Nov 19, 2012, 2:40 PM
Post #37937 of 55489 (35835 views)
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Re: [Farflung] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point about the lobes Farf. You wouldnt need a lot of accuracy until you got close. General right left front back indications could get you close. .. eventually.

And the horn honk and walkie talkie comm idea is good. Hadn't thought of that.

Where were you on Norjack night? Can you prove it?

377


sailshaw

Nov 19, 2012, 2:42 PM
Post #37938 of 55489 (35830 views)
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Re: [377] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

377 You say
:
I'm going to look through my junkbox and see what I can come up with for a low power BC band beacon. Then a field test to check reception distance and DF-ability. A wire antenna is a good idea for the transmitter. Stay tuned.


Have you thought about the rescue beacon transmit/receive radio's used by mountain rescue skiers. They were good for short ranges but were cheep in those days ($100 to $)200 each.

I really don't think DB used radio beacons as I think he was and is a real loaner and was good at orienting and finding his way in the outback and mountains. He also probably jumped within 5 to 10 miles of where he left his car in North Vancouver.
As I have said before, I think he was long gone by mid-night and somewhere in Oregon preparing his four letters to the News Papers and left his DNA under the stamps/envelope flaps.
When are those FBI guys going to test the envelopes for the DNA and match with Sheridan?
They can then be well on their way to solving the crime. This is the only remaining evidence that the FBI has not looked into and it can solve the crime.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw@aol.com


377  (F 666)

Nov 19, 2012, 2:55 PM
Post #37939 of 55489 (35823 views)
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Re: [sailshaw] New evidence about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the avalanche beacons are too short range to be of use.

I actually agree with you that its unlikely that Cooper used radios. I just like to fantasize that he did.

Sheridan Peterson, a veteran skydiver and smoke jumper and ex Marine knew plenty about wilderness landings and egress. He had night jump experience too.

I sure wish he could be interviewed, even if to just get his perpective on what it would take to do the jump successfully and who in 1971 knew about 727s being jumpable.

Somewhere he is quoted recommending the use of a flashlight to illuminate your landing area. He KNOWS that is BS, but why would he say it?

377


(This post was edited by 377 on Nov 19, 2012, 3:00 PM)


Farflung

Nov 19, 2012, 3:01 PM
Post #37940 of 55489 (35810 views)
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From Sluggo’s Site [In reply to] Can't Post

Transcripts and Handwritten notes from Flo,

3:13 PM Crew is hijacked

3:26 Approaching LOFALL for holding

3:57 Already have backpack chutes

4:53 Waiting for chutes from McChord

I would be surprised if an Air Force Base would have reserve chutes. I could see them saying they only have bail out rigs, but not delaying the delivery.

5:07 Within ten minutes, should have two other chutes.

44 minutes from first notice of hijacking to having the backpack chutes doesn’t really allow much time for McChord to be refused or play games. McChord is 35 miles away and it looks more like the most expedient selections, with backups were made.

5:22 He is getting very impatient for the chutes.

He has inquired three times now about chutes.

He is not accepting the fact they are not available locally.

5:26 He (presume Cooper) is aware that TCM (FAA ID for McChord) is 20 miles away.


From page 10 of the handwritten notes:

“he” said why it took
Money + chutes long time
-Chutes came from
McCord
air force base.

He does wants to
Wait for the chutes
Before we land.
5 to 10 min.

That looks like McChord chutes weren’t an issue to Cooper. Where did this information come from about refusing McChord or the base not cooperating?


377  (F 666)

Nov 19, 2012, 4:59 PM
Post #37941 of 55489 (35778 views)
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Re: [Farflung] From Sluggo’s Site [In reply to] Can't Post

Farflung wrote
Quote:
I would be surprised if an Air Force Base would have reserve chutes. I could see them saying they only have bail out rigs, but not delaying the delivery.

If McChord had an Air Rescue Squadron in Nov 71 then they had reserves. PJs (ARS parachute rescue jumpers) wore chest reserves in 1971. Some time ago ARS were called ARRS (Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Squadrons) I think.

377


skyjack71

Nov 19, 2012, 5:15 PM
Post #37942 of 55489 (35772 views)
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Re: [377] Galen's response to questions about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
'How could anyone go to Tina Bar today and
locate the exact spot and "hole" that existed in 1980 but does not remotely exist in physical form today? Some 30 feet of beachfront has ceased to exist since 1980, according to Tom Kaye! Were Galen and the boys standing in the water? Galen needs to provide a map and a few more details if we are to take this seriously -'

Mr. Fazio was with us in 2001 for the documentary. Even with changes in the beach at that time. The fence was still there and a couple of the original trees.
He knew where the shed was and since those 2 trees were pretty large they were pretty old.

At that time Fazio was able to pin point the find. Therefore he probably still could even if he is getting old and feeble like myself. If the original house and foundation are there - I am positive he would be able to again pin point it.

I just know what I saw and I what I witnessed on the beach and what I heard Fazion tell the crew.

If those guys on the crew took some good footage they would release (if they kept it) to us or the public or FBI that would help.

Would help validate where the money was and show how the beach changed.


MeyerLouie

Nov 19, 2012, 5:25 PM
Post #37943 of 55489 (35765 views)
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Re: [BruceSmith] Galen's response to questions about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

Galen G. Cook
Attorney at Law

As to the shard discovery by the kids: they were young teens, and their parents had no reason to get involved. These are fishermen, not scientists or sleuths. They prefer to be left alone and fish. I doubt any of them read the DZ, or sit around and try to establish the latest preferred theory. Most of the fishermen I talked to could care less about D.B. Cooper.
__________________________________________________
I find this hard to believe, but as Georger says, it's too early to draw conclusions. MeyerLouie


Farflung

Nov 19, 2012, 5:38 PM
Post #37944 of 55489 (35758 views)
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Re: [377] From Sluggo’s Site [In reply to] Can't Post

So here we go, round and round, where the answer is, nobody knows, but everyone’s sure.

So if there were PJs at McChord, they would have some reserve chutes. If they are PJ chutes, with reserves, then there wouldn’t be any ‘built in’ ELTs.

This is considered, even though the chutes from Cossey/Hayden and Issaquah, were visually indistinctive from military rigs, and were handled by FBI agents, who could have inserted a homing device at any time.

Cooper is getting uptight because he knows McChord is only 20 miles (actually 35) away, but ‘refuses’ rigs from the Air Force? This shit shouldn’t take 40 years to sort out.

But even if Cooper didn’t care about McChord, the Air Force had some bug up their ass about handing out chutes, even though they gave one to LaPoint for a hijacking, less than two months later.

The transcripts paint a story of the backpack chutes showing up rapidly, with the reserves being the chokepoint. Additionally the reserve and primary were incompatible.

Cooper has also been credited with selecting a military chute, and therefore making a superior ‘choice’, in spite of the fact that he ‘refused’ chutes from the military.

Cooper reads the data cards, but ignores the fact that the chute is out of time, and the reserve is a training dummy.

So the logistics of the chutes, and what Cooper said, which is recorded by Northwest, the FBI and the FAA, is still, how should I say this….. somewhat murky. But so help me god, people know exactly who Cooper is and precisely where the rest of the money is buried. Yep, that sounds just about right. You can imagine the concern I felt, when something may have started to actually follow the arc of something from Earth. Whew, that was a close one.


skyjack71

Nov 19, 2012, 5:49 PM
Post #37945 of 55489 (35756 views)
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Re: [377] Galen's response to questions about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
'How could anyone go to Tina Bar today and
locate the exact spot and "hole" that existed in 1980 but does not remotely exist in physical form today? Some 30 feet of beachfront has ceased to exist since 1980, according to Tom Kaye! Were Galen and the boys standing in the water? Galen needs to provide a map and a few more details if we are to take this seriously -'

Agree.

And what's a good explanation for the corners of twenties to be torn off and allegedly buried right next to Ingrams find?

Does anyone recall when the news broke about Ingram's money find? It was a VERY big deal.

377


Smile
You know where I grew up, if my uncle or father had taken 12 and 14 yr olds fishing and there had been a lot of talk and news items about some money found, WHAT better way to entertain your charges. Tear off the corners of some 20's & stick them in the ground near the find. Just sounds like what an Uncle or Grandpa would do!

He could always turn the rest of the bills in at a bank and get replacements. This was the first thing I thought of when I heard the story Galen supposedly uncovered.

WinkOne has to look at the other stories Galen "uncovered".

ShockedLets call some of the things Hinges - a hinge is something that connects something to something else or JUST hangs off of something else.

I will NOTE at this time Cook used a lot of Hinges in his story connected to the story I have told since 1996. Prints on the Aft stairs is just one of the hinges to the story of Jo Weber as my accounting came many yrs before I ever heard of Cook.

Note: Cook was communicating with me for yrs. before this thread....but, he always had a suspect (he didn't even tell me his real name until I tracked him thru a source).

The information Cook provide yrs ago - he had NO idea I had others who could track the source - that one really really got Cook going when I told him who owned a certain piece of property). Cooks suspects have changed several times over the many yrs he as been at this. I expect he and I have been on this Hunt for about the same lenght of time - I just do NOT know when he started his hunt.

UnsureHinges to my story can be identified. I am just getting old and can't put my finger on them at this time. But all of us know that some of the "stuff" he comes up with is just NOT logical:

1. A witness who sees a plane and sees the skyjacker on the aft stairs (logically everyone knows that is just NOT possible).

2. A judge who Gosset told about leaving some prints - the judge is dead. NOW this one is a HINGE to the story Jo Weber has told - about Duane's nightmare in 1978 about leaving his prints on the Aft stairs. Yrs before he ever heard of Gossett.

3. Wolfgang Gossett being protrayed as Cooper AFTER Cook get a phone call from a guy who was a kid in 1971 - claiming his father was Cooper and Cook bites - hook and sinker.

SmileHey, I like that Hook, Cook and Sinker! Gotta find some humor in this someplace.LaughSlyWink


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Nov 19, 2012, 5:56 PM)


RobertMBlevins

Nov 19, 2012, 5:51 PM
Post #37946 of 55489 (35752 views)
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Re: [MeyerLouie] Galen's response to questions about money find at Tina's Bar [In reply to] Can't Post

Farflung (and others) on the idea of using DF or other similar gear in the hijacking:

What makes any of you believe that Cooper was PLANNING to jump in a location where he would NEED a DF setup with someone on the ground?

You keep missing a common-sense point. If Cooper were planning on jumping south of Olympia, into the Middle of Nowhere...he probably would not have requested the stairs be down for takeoff. This choice of having to jump into the more heavily forested areas south of Olympia was probably forced upon him by circumstances. Just a few minutes' delay in getting the airstairs open could make quite a difference from where the hijacker PLANNED to jump, and where he actually DID jump.

Margie Geestman property sale: Doesn't surprise me. She would be about 83 now, and it's possible she is no longer able to take care of business at the ranch.


(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Nov 19, 2012, 5:54 PM)


skyjack71

Nov 19, 2012, 6:02 PM
Post #37947 of 55489 (35740 views)
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Re: [Farflung] Dummy Chute [In reply to] Can't Post

Try this one:

Cooper may have used the Dummy Chute to pack the money in or maybe he intended to and saw something that WAS not supposed to be there - like some kind of homing device - So he tosses out of the plane. MIGHT be why the FBI was looking around Ariel and the Grist Mill.

SmileTongueJust a Dumb Broad think outside of the box about something she know nothing about!


smokin99

Nov 19, 2012, 6:16 PM
Post #37948 of 55489 (35735 views)
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Eye roll alert [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In reply to:
Farflung (and others) on the idea of using DF or other similar gear in the hijacking:

What makes any of you believe that Cooper was PLANNING to jump in a location where he would NEED a DF setup with someone on the ground?

You keep missing a common-sense point. If Cooper were planning on jumping south of Olympia, into the Middle of Nowhere...he probably would not have requested the stairs be down for takeoff. This choice of having to jump into the more heavily forested areas south of Olympia was probably forced upon him by circumstances. Just a few minutes' delay in getting the airstairs open could make quite a difference from where the hijacker PLANNED to jump, and where he actually DID jump.

Jeez...read the posts. Absolutely no one is advocating that they believe this. It's just being discussed and most are saying it's unlikely.

A lot of folks think that his plan was to jump immediately, but here's some more food for thought...Maybe, just maybe.... for several reasons...he wanted it open because he was just not at all sure that the door would open in flight.

Seems to me for all his "insistence", he gave in pretty easy on the door thing if he indeed knew that they could take off with it open.


Robert99

Nov 19, 2012, 6:34 PM
Post #37949 of 55489 (35728 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Dummy Chute [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Try this one:

Cooper may have used the Dummy Chute to pack the money in or maybe he intended to and saw something that WAS not supposed to be there - like some kind of homing device - So he tosses out of the plane. MIGHT be why the FBI was looking around Ariel and the Grist Mill.

SmileTongueJust a Dumb Broad think outside of the box about something she know nothing about!

Jo, Start thinking INSIDE the box again.

First, the dummy chute was sewn shut. It would not open when the dummy rip cord was pulled since the rip cord pins were not connected to it.

Second, the only logical place to put a tracking device would be in the main chute which was expected to be used which would activate the tracking device. The reserve chute would have been used only as a last resort even if it was operational.

Third, I doubt if the dummy chute could have held more than about one-third of the money in the first place. The reserve chute containers are quite small.

Robert99


RobertMBlevins

Nov 19, 2012, 6:37 PM
Post #37950 of 55489 (35725 views)
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Re: [smokin99] Eye roll alert [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
In reply to:
Farflung (and others) on the idea of using DF or other similar gear in the hijacking:

What makes any of you believe that Cooper was PLANNING to jump in a location where he would NEED a DF setup with someone on the ground?

You keep missing a common-sense point. If Cooper were planning on jumping south of Olympia, into the Middle of Nowhere...he probably would not have requested the stairs be down for takeoff. This choice of having to jump into the more heavily forested areas south of Olympia was probably forced upon him by circumstances. Just a few minutes' delay in getting the airstairs open could make quite a difference from where the hijacker PLANNED to jump, and where he actually DID jump.

Jeez...read the posts. Absolutely no one is advocating that they believe this. It's just being discussed and most are saying it's unlikely.

A lot of folks think that his plan was to jump immediately, but here's some more food for thought...Maybe, just maybe.... for several reasons...he wanted it open because he was just not at all sure that the door would open in flight.

Seems to me for all his "insistence", he gave in pretty easy on the door thing if he indeed knew that they could take off with it open.

Well, your assessment makes just as much sense as the one I presented. I still don't think he was planning on staying aboard long enough to have to jump into an area with few towns and roads.

I just spoke to the guy who did the Power of Attorney on Margie Geestman. I was right. She was getting too old to handle the ranch by herself anymore. She sold it and moved to a condo. I did not ask where. On his request, I sent him the PDF to Blast.


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