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SafecrackingPLF

Mar 14, 2008, 5:32 PM
Post #326 of 55034 (40435 views)
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Viability of LaCamas Route [In reply to] Can't Post

I went online to see if I could find some photos of this dam. That way we wouldn't have to wait until August (when I will be able to visit in person).

The lake was formed a long, long time ago by using these dams. That's plural, because there's one at the southern area of Round Lake and another at the south end of Mill Pond. The Mill Pond route does not lead to Washougal; we would be more concerned with round lake.

As it is, there's a thick screen preventing fish or debris from entering Mill Pond.

There's another screen several feet out from this spot to act as a skimmer.

The dam is not hydroelectric, it's functional; it's what creates the lake.

Please see the first photo to see an overview of LaCamas, Round Lake, and Mill Pond.

Then see photo 2 to view Round Lake with some arrows pointing at the dam and the mill pond screen.

In photo 3 you can see the logs placed in front of the entire dam area to create a skimmer effect. These logs are tied into place with chain.

In photo 4, you will see a little bridge that also has screening that goes all the way down to the bottom of the lake. It keeps fish and debris from entering the pond.

In photo 5, you will see the back side of the dam.

In photo 6, you will see a shot taken from the dam looking out over Round Lake (towards LaCamas Lake). Take note on how still the water is and how the barriers sift debris before permitting water to enter the dam area.

In photo 7, you will see LaCamas Creek. Please note the type of creek including rocks and the level of waterflow. If the 22 pound, 5+ gallon sized bag were to arrive via "natural" means, it would have to flow down this creek before ever adjoining the Columbia.

To summarize, if the money had "no help" then it would certainly have had to made it's way from farm area to LaCamas Lake where it would have to float, exit the Lake (which we haven't even discussed yet) into Round Lake, make its way past any skimmers, and get pushed over the skimmers of the dam. It would then have to travel down LaCamas Creek a few miles before adjoing Washougal River and then adjoin the Columbia. It would then travel the distance from the mouth of Washougal to the sand bar where the money was found.

The distance from the dam to Washougal is 1.82 miles if you follow the creek.

The distance from that point to where the money was found is 20.41 miles.

I was curious how far it was from the dam to the farm area and I traced the path 10.62 miles until I just said "good enough" at the southeastern most border of the general vicinity (which means the actual travel path may be up to a mile further).

Totaling these together, it's at least 32 miles of creeks/streams/lakes/and river. The last 20 miles of the journey would be the quickest.

As stated previously, the bag would measure approximately 9x12x17.

This is the reason why float time is so important. My understanding is that Himmelsbach himself said there was no closure to the top of the bag, which really causes me to pause when I think about such a miraculous trek... but ultimately, I will let the reader draw their own conclusions as to the viability of LaCamas Lake.
Attachments: LaCamas Overview.jpg (225 KB)
  LaCamas-Round Lake.jpg (191 KB)
  Dam.jpg (105 KB)
  Mill Pond Screen.jpg (110 KB)
  Dam 2.jpg (129 KB)
  Round Lake.jpg (52.4 KB)
  045.jpg (169 KB)


SafecrackingPLF

Mar 15, 2008, 9:16 AM
Post #327 of 55034 (40396 views)
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How High Would the Money Bag Float? [In reply to] Can't Post

You may have been wondering what the bag would look like as it floated.

This time I'm going to show the work to illustrate how this type of question can be answered mathematically.

The dimensions of the money were approximately 9x12x17 and it weighed 22 pounds (rounded up slightly). The bag may have added up to 3 pounds of weight, but for argument's sake, let's say the bag weighed nothing (since we don't really know its weight yet).

I've already stated that it would float on its largest surface, one of the 12x17 sides.

1 gallon of water = 8.34 pounds
22 pounds/8.34 = 2.64 gallons of displacement
1 gallon = 231 cubic inches
12x17x1 = 204 cubic inches per inch of depth
2.64 gallons x 231 cubic inches per gallon = 610 cubic inches (of displacement needed).
610 cubic inches / 204 cubic inches per inch = 2.99 inches

This means 3 inches of the bag would be below water and 6 inches would be above water.

Incidentally, if the bag added 3 pounds to the total, then 3.4 inches would be below water and 5.6 inches would be above water.

I realize none of this solves anything, nor does it actually "do" anything. I'm only making this post for future reference should these calculations be needed.

As it is, how the (dry) bag floats in water might actually influence how someone considers the odds of the bag getting past the skimmers in front of the dam at Round Lake.

It would also be extremely valuable in determining the approximate waterflow that would be required to move the bag itself from the farm area to the lake. As you can see from the calculations, you would need a channel greater than 3 inches deep of water and at least 12 inches wide (to clear the bag) with no obstacles in the way. Otherwise the bag would stay in place. I can't speak to how likely this is, but can certainly say the further you move away from the lake (in a north direction), the less water flow you will have to push the bag towards the lake.

It should be noted, however, that as the canvas and the bills soak up water, the bag and contents would become heavier and the bag would be pushed lower down into the water (which would accelerate the sinking process in the lake & increase the flow requirements to move the bag into the lake in the first place). These calculations were for a dry bag only.

For the reader trying to picture what it would have been like for the money bag to float in the lake, I've included pictures.

The first one was taken from the NE section of the lake (looking SW to the West side of the lake where there are now a lot of homes).

The second picture was taken by the local ski club when they set up a slalom course. From other photos with skiers, it appears these buoys stick up about 6 to 7 inches, maybe slightly higher than a dry money bag would have, but the bag would have been more than twice the size of these buoys.

The final picture is of the skimmers again (but different photo)


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Mar 15, 2008, 11:29 AM)
Attachments: North LaCamas.jpg (37.8 KB)
  LaCamas Buoys.jpg (40.4 KB)
  LaCamas Round Lake Skimmers.jpg (63.6 KB)


Albert18

Mar 15, 2008, 12:53 PM
Post #328 of 55034 (40371 views)
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Re: [SafecrackingPLF] How High Would the Money Bag Float? [In reply to] Can't Post

Any fish in those lakes?


SafecrackingPLF

Mar 15, 2008, 1:08 PM
Post #329 of 55034 (40368 views)
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Re: [Albert18] How High Would the Money Bag Float? [In reply to] Can't Post

The lake is stocked with about 25,000 different fish each year; taken from the (Bonneville?) fish hatchery.

There used to be indiginous fish, but they've all died out due to environmental changes.

I think your question refers to fishermen on the lake.

YES. Always. It's been a big fishing spot for decades (including the 60s & 70s)... and the obvious thing to consider is the likliness of the bag floating all that time in the (very) large lake without any fishermen getting curious and checking it out.

IMO, not likely...


skyjack71

Mar 16, 2008, 12:23 AM
Post #330 of 55034 (40340 views)
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Re: [Orange1] Facts and theories [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If a bag of cash came separated from Cooper at or soon after exit, it could have travelled much further than a skydiver would, either in freefall or under canopy. Fact.

I have not been able to get into this discussion and it is just as well. Cooper did not become separated from the money - he buried most of it and returned in 1979 which was the first time he had the opportunity to go back to WA.

I can take you to two locations that he had the opportunity to throw something into the Columbia. If I get well enough --- I am going to do just that - and if the law doesn't disallow it in WA. I am going to throw 1/3 of his ashes in at both places - one in a plastic bucket - along with paper, but not real money. The second location will be paper in a bag along with part of the ashes. The last 1/3 - maybe I will flush it down the toilet of a Boeing or have it thrown out of a plane at 10,000 ft over the area he jumped in.

When the contents of the bag are found and the plastic bucket is discovered I won't be around ... then someone can "debate" that.

ALSO NOTE: - the FBI has not told ALL of the story. They know the "evidence" on the tie was compromised and that is confirmed by the 'butts' being lost. They know that one of their own had access to that evidence and supposedly showed that tie to McCoy's family - that means it left the evidence room ... and the state of WA. Is this when the "butts" came up missing?

The FBI also knows WHY they did not release any pictures of the tie at that time. Then 36 yrs later the tie suddenly becomes evidence that can excuse individuals - minus the "butt". What would a court of law do with that?

THE BIG QUESTION - if the FBI wanted to find COOPER - why did they not release pictures of that tie in 1971. I know the answer to that question.
The FBI knows the answer to that question ... and they buried that evidence a long time ago...?????

ALSO NOTE: If I allow a private concern to do a check of that knife and it's contents the FBI will reject it and I certainly DO NOT TRUST the FBI.

NOTE: THe FBI has NEVER PUBLICLY acknowledge that they lost the "BUTTs" and I believe that the agent before Carr was disciplined for telling me about the 'BUTTS BEING LOST" several yrs ago. The agent and his superior refuted the statement and now it comes out yrs, later that they REALLY are LOST. Note: This loss has never been announced in a public statement and Ckret only posted that on a forum.

The stewardesses have never stated that the tie they have in evidence is the tie worn by Cooper. It was found on the seat next to him - it is an assumption. What happened to the paper bag?
What was in that paper bag - did it just disappear
- it would have had his prints on it. Was Cooper smart enough to take the bag with him?

The FBI HAS never answered my question about 20 dollar bills found in CA - in an area accessible to individuals of interest to the FBI - I have found no reports they ever checked that money against Cooper's money. I cannot tell you in a forum why I think they are related and why the FBI never answered me or investigated this after I contacted them regarding the above - there were never any more reports in the national news regarding this random find of money.

I will answer NO questions about the tie other than what I have stated and about 20 dollar bills appearing in a strange way at a certain time in the FBI's investigation of Duane Weber. There have been too many unanswered questions - regarding the actions of the FBI in their investigation of Duane.

Sounds like and Looks like a WASH to me. Sorry this is a long post, but THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT!

There are and have been for many yrs. forces inaction that we as citizens have no control over regarding our government - and the cover-up regarding D.B. Cooper is one of them.Now someone convince me this is not true! --- Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy, President Kennedy, Dorothy Killgallen and others who have gone were she dared to go. We know who the assassins were, but do we really know how and why these things happened. What about the unanswered questions leading up to how Bobby Kennedy's assassin had access to his exit point - answer to that one is Someone who was supposed to be protecting him.

I am not getting off track - I am talking about the subject. White Wash, Covert Actions, Secrets, Corruption, War, Politics --- What Is and Has Been Going on Behind Closed Door in Our American for yrs.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Mar 16, 2008, 1:07 AM)


Orange1  (B 2638)

Mar 16, 2008, 2:13 AM
Post #331 of 55034 (40327 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Facts and theories [In reply to] Can't Post

Conspiracy theories are very useful to people who can't prove something (it's because "they" are hiding the facts). Maybe you can't prove it for the simple reason that it wasn't the case in the first place.

Jo, with all due respect, you have absolutely no way of knowing what happened on exit. You weren't there. You have no evidence that Duane could have pulled off that jump and for some strange reason when there did appear to be links between Duane and known skydivers - something you initially asked for - you suddenly decided they were not worthy of further discussion. Now you claim to have evidence but won't let the FBI look at it. None of this is helping convince anyone that Duane was Cooper.

I for one think I can understand perfectly why Carr hasn't bothered coming back to these forums, at least at this time.


AggieDave  (D License)

Mar 16, 2008, 3:04 AM
Post #332 of 55034 (40322 views)
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Re: [Orange1] Facts and theories [In reply to] Can't Post

That and mistakes do happen in investigations. Even with the FBI. How does that happen? Well, all of those investigators are human and mistakes do happen. Do not confuse those mistakes with an overwhelmingly large conspiracy to discredit a single insignificant person and his girlfriend. Firstly, investigations encompass a surprisingly large number of people. That's important since not every single one of them like their jobs or their employer. There are people that would love to act as a whistle blower and history shows that they are there and they do go public.

So this great conspiracy to make sure that a dead man and his former but still unknown girlfriend are discredited would surely result in those whistle blowers going public. There's just too many people involved to keep a secret like that for something that is so insignificant.


skyjack71

Mar 16, 2008, 4:05 AM
Post #333 of 55034 (40319 views)
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Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Viability of LaCamas Route [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
, LaCamas Creek. Please note the type of creek including rocks and the level of waterflow. If the 22 pound, 5+ gallon sized bag were to arrive via "natural" means, it would have to flow down this creek before ever adjoining the Columbia.

To summarize, if the money had "no help" then it would certainly have had to made it's way from farm area to LaCamas Lake where it would have to float, exit the Lake (which we haven't even discussed yet) into Round Lake, make its way past any skimmers, and get pushed over the skimmers of the dam. It would then have to travel down LaCamas Creek a few miles before adjoing Washougal River and then adjoin the Columbia. It would then travel the distance from the mouth of Washougal to the sand bar where the money was found..

This is the reason why float time is so important. My understanding is that Himmelsbach himself said there was no closure to the top of the bag, which really causes me to pause when I think about such a miraculous trek... but ultimately, I will let the reader draw their own conclusions as to the viability of LaCamas Lake.

Okay - say the Fight is OFF its vector - and is further East than was reporter or a wind factor was involved - is it possible the money landed in the Washougal...I know someone is going to ask this so it just as well be me. Again that would be moving the filght path and the jump time would have put him into the mountains - at least that is what I am assuming from looking at a map. I saw that Washougal in May of 2000 - I wouldn't want to be in that - if the money was - it would never have made it to the Columbia.

You know that West of that Mansion and it servants quarters used to be 3 cabins - on the North side of LaCamas Lake - that is one of the places Duane took me to...at the time there was only the foundation of one cabin left and he told me there used to be 3 there. This is the point at which he pointed South to what was a a dirt road at that time - and told me about a Cabin there, and to then East and said something about a tower and to the West and mention an old logging camp.

On my trip to Wa. in 2000 - I found out that all of that did exist in 1971 and 1979. In 2000 the area had developed tremendously on the South East banks but the dairy was still there and the director of the Youth Camp on the North East side of the lake told us there used to be an old Feeding Camp - for the loggers on the South West side. The height of the lake in 2000 was considerably higher than it was in 1979 on the sentimental journey.

There is a small creek that runs from the North into the lake - Follow that creek north and it will take you to power lines and then those power lines will take you to the pipe lines - when the underbrush wasn't there you could walk for miles and know exactly where you were going. (This is what he told me in 1979). Just a bit further up the road on the North Westside use to be what I think was an orchard at one time - the field in 1979 had lots of Rocks in it and some select very large trees - Duane knew his way around there real good - he didn't look at a map and he made all of these little side trips - some of these road weren't marked in 1979.

Tell me something, HOW does a man know an area like that if he SUPPOSEDLY never spent any time in the area? The FBI never could answer that question.

Strange that you alone have zeroed in on this area. When I was out there in 2000 these supposed guides took me everywhere but there...I kept telling them that the places they took me to weren't even close.

Then along come the Angel "Udell" and I only had that one free day before my fight left the next morning - this truck driver asked me if I had a problem while I was waiting for my ride in front of the Double Tree - I just told her that I was looking for something I couldn't find - she asked me to describe the places - and when I did she told me where to go to find both places .

The driver and ladies who where hosting me had another route in mind, but took me to these place and the moment I laid eyes on LaCamas lake I had found my "river"...and I also found the Washougal River on my left before turning up a road thru pastures -- I had repeatedly been told that could not be and yet there it was...then this big wide river which I did not know was a lake and Duane did not tell me differently - I had NO idea I was on a lake...the banks were steep in 1979 at the cabin site and in 2000 the water was up to the cabin site and the youth director asked me if I saw the lily pads - and he explain that just beyond those the water dropped off - that the lake had filled in.

The trees in 1979 - the area around the cabins seemed barren and scrappy...yet in 2000 the trees were larger - the director then noted a 3 yrs old tree versus a 25 yr old tree - I knew I had found it - I remember both visions so very vividly. I will never get it out of my mind. This is the point I knew my search was over - I felt totally exhausted from the prior 4 days - I didn't need to see the things they had planned for me to see.

The man who was driving was at that time in 2000
an undercover Narco....his life depended on his knowing when someone was lieing --- he was 99.9% sure that what I was telling him was the truth. He left himself a small fraction for grace sake. I still communicate with one of the women in the van that day...she was the one who arranged for the undercover narco to assist us.

AND here I go again - just talking about that lake and the area from there to the Washougal, Coffee Rd., the "Orchard" or field, the mansion, all of those things he told me. Before we went to the lake he took me to the strangest place - a cementery. He didn't get out or stop the car...I have no idea...what that was, but he seemed to be more focused on an area West of the Cementery and back toward the Washougal River...I don't remember what it was and I didn't think to tell the driver to go down there - I was so elated at finding the other places and we were tired.

In 1979 Duane took us onto Coffey Rd (I only recently found that road)- and after passing an intersection we went North on a not so major paved road in 1979 - after quiet a ways and this is where I get lost, but some place in that area was were the pipe line or power lnes crossed the tracks - I didn't see them - Duane told me about them. This is where the tower was - now it is all homes and forest is gone...I found this with Sluggo's maps and when I contacted him he emailed maps of the area I requested...I have not communicated with him recently to thank him for finding that map - he sent 3 maps but I only had to open the first one and it was dead on.

This far more than I ever meant to tell you guys, but it is done. It was eerie the way all of this stuff you guys have been talking about just sent me back into the trip one more time - frankly I wish the memories would go away - that he had never told me the things he told me or took me to the places he did - all of the things he said over an 17 yr marriage and ended with his telling me about something that I had forgot about - and he was mad at me for not knowing what he was talking about. He wanted to get on down the Road - "Let's get on down the Road, Jo. " This statement was only a few hours the evening before he died the next day around mid-day.

Our last conversation... because when I went back to the hospital the next day they had doped him up. I left that one night and the struggle with the nurse putting a morphine patch on his back...I now know that contributed to his death the next day. He told me "They are going to Kill me - get if off". I didn't know that they were also giving it to him orally - he wasn't dying fast enough for them... When I got there the next day he was almost gone - I knew I was there because he said "I love You" and 40 minutes later he was gone.

I am sorry, but this was one man who had been to hell and back - from prisoner to Regional Manger for a subsidiiary of Merrill Lynch - a man I knew, but didn't know. Not until 1 yr and 2 months after he died when I stumbled onto the name of Dan Cooper in a book and the flood gates of memories came.
Just like they have to night - rather this Sunday morning.

I have spent 17 yrs of my life loving this man and 13 yrs of my life finding out who this man really was and trying to put his story out of my mind...but it won't go away. No - I am not crazy and I have not made up one thing I have told you - I have repeated the story for so long and it is always the same... just more vivid with each passing yr. and the more I know the harder it is that I am just -the Crazy Lady - and that the FBI refuses to do what is right. Duane Weber was Dan Cooper.

There is nothing I will ever be able to do to prove it to the world - but, I know......and I also know about the "tie"..................................but, that again is another story - one the world will probably never know.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Mar 16, 2008, 4:41 AM)


bozo  (D 10154)

Mar 16, 2008, 5:59 AM
Post #334 of 55034 (40310 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Viability of LaCamas Route [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I am sorry, but this was one man who had been to hell and back - from prisoner to Regional Manger for a subsidiiary of Merrill Lynch -





Wow.....he is almost hero instead of what he really was and you still have never put him anywhere near a parachute.


Orange1  (B 2638)

Mar 16, 2008, 8:05 AM
Post #335 of 55034 (40298 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Viability of LaCamas Route [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Tell me something, HOW does a man know an area like that if he SUPPOSEDLY never spent any time in the area? The FBI never could answer that question.

That hardly surprises me. It's not the kind of "question" I would expect them to "answer". It's not really what people would consider evidence, when you've stated yourself many times how Duane lied to all sorts of people about all sorts of things. There are probably a million other "questions" in the world that the FBI could "never answer", but they're not the kind of questions anyone would really expect them to answer...


SafecrackingPLF

Mar 16, 2008, 9:31 AM
Post #336 of 55034 (40284 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Viability of LaCamas Route [In reply to] Can't Post

You asked about the probability of the money landing in the Washougal watershed.

This was addressed on the previous thread, post 1443, the very first question I answered.

It's impossible. The distance is too far and the wind direction make it beyond possible. The plane would have had to been 12 miles to the east meaning they'd be so far off course that they'd require a massive correction that would have been noted somewhere in addition to mandatory sobriety tests issued to the captains in Reno.

From my 1443 post on the prior thread:
"The closest possible point from the flight path to the Washougal River is 11.24 miles. In addition, Cooper would have to jump at approximately 8:17-8:18 and travel in a perfect easterly direction."

The "perfect easterly direction" was impossible due to the wind direction. Further, the plane would have been miles east of PDX and not west of PDX as the route dictates.

Washougal is so out of question, it's not even funny. I have a better chance of being Cooper than of the money landing in that area. I wasn't alive when the crime occured, so that should give you an idea of the probability on that one.

I concur with Orange1. It's not the FBI's job to explain Duane's intricate knowledge of the area. It's their job to investigate the crime; something they quit doing in the early 80s.

Once Himmelsbach retired two weeks after Ingram's find, the case, IMO, was dead.

The level of examination and analysis that all of us, and especially those of the DZ community, have brought in this thread and the previous thread could have been done by the FBI by the end of March 1980.

As it is, they never really took the time to figure out all the implications of the evidence.

As for my discussion of LaCamas Lake and your discussion of LaCamas Lake, it's pure coincidence. I'm discussing it because it's the only route that would explain "no intervention". That's just true from a pure geographic standpoint.


SafecrackingPLF

Mar 17, 2008, 5:51 PM
Post #337 of 55034 (40197 views)
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Galen Cook [In reply to] Can't Post

Galen Cook is an attorney/former PI who has spent a lot of time theorizing about this case. He has also been known to harass key witnesses over the last several years, and he actually sued the FBI in 2004 to get all of the Cooper evidence released to the public.

On Feb 28th, he appeared on coast to coast talk radio. Evidently, it's an "Art Bell" type of show, and he presented "evidence" of an unnamed suspect in this case.

I am hereby pleading for Galen Cook to join the discussion. Though I do find your ambition to find Tina Mucklow to be somewhat tasteless, the more experts on Cooper we can get here, the stronger the discussion will become. Please join us.

As it is, I will summarize the "evidence" presented in this radio show (that I found through google).
1. Suspect had military parachute training. This is backed up by an emblem that he wore on his uniform. His eldest son also said that he used to do "HALO" jumps in preparation for the Vietnam war that included night jumps.

2. In 1971 he served as a ROTC trainer at an unnamed university in Utah. The regional headquarters for ROTC training was apparently Ft. Lewis AFB (according to Cook).

3. According to Cook, the suspect appears to be "the best" match he's ever seen to the composite sketch(es). See attached.

4. This was insinuated but not declared; the suspect "confessed in not so many words" to his family over the years (quotes are mine).

I'm sure all of us on this DZ thread would love to ask you more questions regarding the suspect and to bounce theories off of you.

He's submitted fingerprints to Ckret about a month ago, but no announcement has been made by the FBI that this case has been solved. (we may be able to conclude that no match was found, but that may also be a premature conclusion).

The entire interview is posted on YouTube and on the coasttocoastam(dot)com website if anyone is interested.

He has a fairly solid understanding of the facts, but some of his information is faulty. Regardless, his explanation of Ingram's money find is significantly flawed. Most everyone on here knows that I'm a stickler to that particular detail because it tends to flaw almost every theory out there (but we are still debating that).

His "theory" is as follows:
Cooper offered to give Tina some of the money. This has been documented and was confirmed by Ckret in the previous thread. According to Galen Cook, Cooper placed the refused stack in his coat pocket. Upon exit, the money in his pocket came flying out. It was later found on the river bank.

Cook's theory does mention pack(s) not pack. That's good because three packs were found, not one. However, in Ckret's post #678, he says
"Cooper reached into the bag and gave her a bundle of money. Tina then said to him she was just joking and that she could not accept gratuities and handed the bundle back to Cooper."

This would imply that Cooper did not offer Tina $6,000 but a mere $2,000. Galen Cook contends that this offer was extended to multiple people (which would mean multiple packs). I will put in a message to Ckret to see if he can confirm or deny this.

In addition to that discrepency, we've discussed at great length when the money arrived on the sand bar (1979) and the condition that it was in and had to of been in when arriving (rubber bands still intact). Both of which would point away from such a theory. Further, and this goes without saying, the jump occured 12 miles from where the money was subsequently found and there are no water ways that would explain the find (unless you break the timeline, location of the plane, accept LaCamas Lake, and figure out how to get a stack of cash to float for longer than 11 minutes).

Galen, please join the best Cooper theorists in the world, the ones right here on DZ, to discuss the ins and outs of the case. We're waiting!


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Mar 17, 2008, 5:58 PM)
Attachments: galencookssuspect.jpg (39.1 KB)


1969912

Mar 17, 2008, 6:31 PM
Post #338 of 55034 (40184 views)
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Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Galen Cook [In reply to] Can't Post

Listening to it right now. I see what you mean about Tina Mucklow.Frown


(This post was edited by 1969912 on Mar 17, 2008, 6:49 PM)


SafecrackingPLF

Mar 17, 2008, 8:12 PM
Post #339 of 55034 (40164 views)
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Re: [1969912] Galen Cook [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd love to hear your opinion on the interview Jim.

I left out one of the pieces of "evidence"... Cook says his unnamed suspect used to enjoy dressing up.

I wonder if he enjoyed dressing up with clip on ties.

IMO, the interview was intriguing and worth a listen, but the case against the unnamed suspect was fairly weak. Maybe I missed something somewhere (perhaps a prior interview?). In particular, I enjoyed the argument between Cook and the McCoy theorist who called into the show.

It was also plainly obvious that this Galen Cook has not visited this DZ thread, which IMO, is a mistake if you're thinking of making the rounds and proclaiming a theory out in public. Such people should be armed with as much expert opinion as possible, and the opinions offered up by experienced skydivers cannot be gained elsewhere.


1969912

Mar 17, 2008, 8:34 PM
Post #340 of 55034 (40160 views)
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Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Galen Cook [In reply to] Can't Post

It was very interesting, but there was no strong evidence presented. If Mr. Cook just went public in late Feb., there may be more information that he's holding back for now. Otherwise, it's just a lead for the FBI (who may not care anymore).

Good point about the dressing up/clip-on tie idea. Could he have used a clip-on knowing the tie might slap the hell out of his face during the jump though?...

The whole tie/DNA thing is very flaky IMHO. Has the FBI ever stated that they found any DNA on the tie? AFAIK, they just said there was no match with Duane Weber. Also, in 1971 they would not have handled evidence in the same way they would now. The tie was probably touched by several ungloved hands back then.

Mr. Cook most likely hasn't seen this thread, and he should be interested. He can be contacted through C2C, and I'm pretty sure his law firm is in WA, possibly Spokane.


(This post was edited by 1969912 on Mar 17, 2008, 11:13 PM)


SafecrackingPLF

Mar 17, 2008, 11:25 PM
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Re: [1969912] Galen Cook [In reply to] Can't Post

The clip-on is a whole different discussion, and no one has any definitive answers about it (that I'm aware of). I'm not even sure what my "theory" is on it.

You're correct about the handling of the tie; it's not beyond the scope of reason to think that agents handled it after it had been processed. The DNA: Multiple male donors found "on the tie" (I'm assuming the metallic clip). DNA retrieved from Jo (which may or may not have been Duane's) did not match any of the male donors on the tie.

I remembered that I forgot the "strongest" link of the unnamed suspect: his brother's name was Dan.

So you have a military trained parachuter, the appropriate age, who's brother is named Dan, and he likes to dress up. That apparently adds up to him being Cooper.

I'd hope he'd have more to it than just this (and there probably is)... he has a pretty bad reputation in the "Cooper" world for reasons you noticed in that interview (giving out private information about Tina publicly).

My next post below will be one worth discussing


SafecrackingPLF

Mar 17, 2008, 11:46 PM
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The Timeline? [In reply to] Can't Post

The following is a statement by Ralph Himmelsbach given in 1988 on the Unsolved Mysteries segment covering DB Cooper.

It's quoted verbatim:
He told her to go back into the cockpit and to close the curtain between the coach and the first class cabins. As she turned around to close the curtains, she said she saw him tying something to his waist with what she thought was rope. Later in the cockpit, the light flashed indicating that the highjacker was attempting to operate the door. At 8:12, the pilot told us that they were experiencing a rapid change in the air pressure reflected in a ears popping experience.

When we discuss(ed) the case with Ckret, he went off of the written files. Himmelsbach, on the other hand, was based out of Portland (not Seattle) and he had a working knowledge of the case beginning from the first moments when the crime was underway. I would weigh his words very strongly.

I'm not sure if he was speaking metaphorically, or if he was literal, but he made it sound as though the time of the pressure bump was determined by the FBI in real time. When he said "the pilot told us they were experiencing" he effectively phrased it in such a way that suggests the FBI was updated almost continually.

What's interesting is that the teletype mentioned an oscillation at 8:12, and it has been thoroughly discussed by Cooper experts/authors that the pressure bump occured simultaneously with the oscillation and that both of these events were reproduced in the testing that happened in Jan 72.

The two people who would know the most about the reliability of the timeline would be William Rataczak and Ralph Himmelsbach. Captain Scott died 7 years ago yesterday.


Orange1  (B 2638)

Mar 18, 2008, 4:18 AM
Post #343 of 55034 (40125 views)
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Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Galen Cook [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So you have a military trained parachuter, the appropriate age, who's brother is named Dan, and he likes to dress up. That apparently adds up to him being Cooper.

Well, it's got a lot more substance to it than some of the other names that have been put forward Wink

Thinking again about your obsession with the money -- agree where it was found is a paradox BUT there just might be some explanation that you/we have not thought of -- so am wondering if that by itself is really reason enough to "flaw" all the other theories.


SafecrackingPLF

Mar 18, 2008, 7:12 AM
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Re: [Orange1] Galen Cook [In reply to] Can't Post

If there's a scenario that we haven't discussed or thought of, I hope we think of it, or someone comes on here and points it out to us. I have no interest of leaving any stone unturned.

As it is, I don't know what else we could be missing. We know where the waterways are, and they have not changed location. We know where the FBI & NWA originally calculated the jump point. We know where the money was found (within a hundred yards or so).

There's only so many possibilities: plane was in a different location and the timeline was later OR someone found the money/body and decided to chuck it into the river (or adjacent location) in 1979.

Wind couldn't reasonably account for the 12+ mile disparity. Without busting the rules, water doesn't account for it. Is it really likely that an animal or animals carried multiple bundles of cash 12+ miles?

Like I said, we're left with location of the plane (it would have to be either right on the river or it would have to be east) AND (because the jump is too far north) the timeline would have to be adjusted. Adjust these two and we have a prayer of coming up with an alternate explanation (but even then we'd have to contend with the geology of the beach and the 1979 timeline of the money deposit).

I suppose you're right, Mayfield, Christiansen, etc were not really explained much better than the unknown suspect. One guy spent more money than his family thought he'd have, and the other was an expert skydiver who apparently called authorities shortly after the jump. I didn't necessarily mean to joke about his legitimacy, I was just commenting that Cook never really gave the listener a reason to conclude his guy was Cooper. He really needed to talk more about any comments he made to his family over the years; it wasn't discussed at all in the very lengthy interview, but alluded to.

His theory on the money doesn't disqualify his guy. His idea on how the money got there was certainly worth discussing, but it's essentially impossible. I think all theories on the money are worth discussing regardless of who's idea or agenda it argues, because a legitimate discussion of the money can eventually give us a much more accurate idea of what truly happened. I believe this is why Ckret told us the money deserved the most amount of "investigation". No investigation was really ever done, otherwise they would have known fairly quick what all of us already know as a result of discussing the details.


SafecrackingPLF

Mar 18, 2008, 11:16 AM
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Galen Cook Photo Comparison [In reply to] Can't Post

Out of curiosity, I went in search of any FRS that I might use to compare photos of Cook's unnamed suspect against the composite sketches.

Unless I invest a lot of money into sophisticated software, it's just not feasible. However, I did find an online geneology site that has some crude FRS integrated into their features. One of the tools you can use is a comparitive look a like test. It's designed to tell you which parent most resembles a child, but I decided to test it out using sketches and photos.

First, I ran Galen Cook's suspect against a convicted killer and probably the best sketch of the killer ever made; the resemblence between the two is the best I've ever seen between a sketch and a photo. Not surprisingly, Cook's suspect lost to the convicted killer by 22%. This is probably the biggest margin we could ever hope for from such a test.

Next, I ran Galen Cook's suspect against Christiansen and Weber. He lost to Christiansen by 5% and to Weber by 6%. The margin decreased slightly when I used the Bing Crosby sketch (4% & 5%).

The only sketch that really produced anything different was the Florence Schaffner sketch of 1988. When I ran Cook's suspect against Christiansen using the Schaffner sketch, Galen's guy beat him by 5%. I then ran the same test against Weber and it was a statistical tie.

While my little experiment is far from scientific and I would never, ever put much weight onto it, it was still interesting to see if I could challenge Cook's assertion that "it's the closest match I've ever seen".

If I had expensive software and a huge database, I would rely a little more on that. Such a test has only been done once, and Weber beat out the entire database (3,000 people) including some top suspects (guessing McCoy). Wish we could play around with that FRS, but regardless I don't consider that experiment small potatoes.

The photos are only for fun & to illustrate my little experiment.


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Mar 18, 2008, 3:10 PM)
Attachments: KTT example.jpg (65.2 KB)
  Weber Comparison.jpg (65.4 KB)
  Christiansen Comparison.jpg (66.2 KB)
  Mayfield comparison.jpg (64.4 KB)


Orange1  (B 2638)

Mar 18, 2008, 1:26 PM
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Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Galen Cook Photo Comparison [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm quite impressed by the amount of time you seem to have to devote to the case.

The sketch results are interesting but even with more sophisticated software I doubt it will really be of much use. Especially pre computer imaging, sketches/identikist/photofits - whatever - have been notorious as never being entirely accurate - at best. Something you can see just about any time you see a photo of a criminal next to his sketch... also plenty of stuff on this if you google it. There was something that in the early 70s the best help they got from sketches gave them clues in 5-10% of cases... hardly very inspiring.


SafecrackingPLF

Mar 18, 2008, 2:21 PM
Post #347 of 55034 (40038 views)
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Re: [Orange1] Galen Cook Photo Comparison [In reply to] Can't Post

The point was, Galen Cook said his suspect matched the photo(s) better than anyone he ever saw. I was just horsing around to see if I could get an objective point of view.

I can't speak to the accuracy of criminal sketches. I've seen some that have been put together very haphazardly and aren't inspiring, like you say. I've seen others that were very detailed and well put together and have been spot on (see the KTT example that I posted above).

I can tell you that some law enforcement now uses FRS to sift through thousands of suspect photos in comparison to criminal sketches. They could not nor would not even 1. use sketches to begin with or 2. take the second step of matching sketches to criminal databases, if there was no merit to the sketches in general.

I would judge the various Cooper sketches based on their attention to detail, but would also take into consideration the number of revisions that were done to get it right (there was at least 3 revisions).

While I wouldn't expect a perfect match if they ever nailed Cooper, I would expect some semblance to them. I also wouldn't trivialize the accuracy of the most sophisticated FRS out there, such a program weighed a confessor to the crime against an entire database and lo and behold the confessor was the top biometric match to the sketch. Certainly not proof on its own, but not to be trivialized either since the odds of such a thing are 1 in 3,000 (and you told me you used odds all the time and thought 20% was not worth discussing, 99.97% therefore should be significant to you).


low_pull1

Mar 18, 2008, 7:33 PM
Post #348 of 55034 (40011 views)
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Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Galen Cook Photo Comparison [In reply to] Can't Post

i remember the "son of sam" killer on the east coast.....none of the sketches from what i can remember ever came close to the real killer.

chuck


labrys  (D 29848)

Mar 18, 2008, 7:55 PM
Post #349 of 55034 (40008 views)
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Re: [low_pull1] Galen Cook Photo Comparison [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
i remember the "son of sam" killer on the east coast.....none of the sketches from what i can remember ever came close to the real killer.

What I remember about that is the same. The sketches made the killer look very much like a middle-aged african american man, which was far from the look of the man they convicted


SafecrackingPLF

Mar 18, 2008, 10:40 PM
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Re: [labrys] Galen Cook Photo Comparison [In reply to] Can't Post

Not all police sketches are created equal. I think everyone here would agree on that. I admitted as much in my previous post.

The Son of Sam sketch was exceptionally weak. It was drawn after Berkowitz shot Donna Lauria and Jody Valenti at 1:10 in the morning.

From wikipedia
After her parents were inside, Lauria opened the car door to depart, and she saw a man approaching them quickly. Startled and angered by the man's sudden appearance, Lauria said, "Now what is this" From the paper sack he carried, the man produced a handgun and, crouching as he aimed, fired three shots. Lauria was struck in her chest by one bullet that killed her almost instantly, Valenti took a bullet in her thigh, and the third missed both girls. The shooter turned and quickly walked away.

It's not a fair comparison to equate the Cooper sketches to a sketch devised by a witness who saw an attacker in the middle of the night, was subsequently shot, traumatized by the death of her friend, and had very little time to burn an image of the attacker into her mind.

Further, it's been fairly well documented that eye witness accounts of a violent attacker brandishing a gun are highly unreliable. Even Ckret, who works bank robberies, made mention of this phenomena in one of his posts.

The attention to detail, the number of witnesses, and the number of revisions to get the picture just right should all tell you that the Cooper sketch would not be as weak as the Son of Sam sketch.

Remember, I was only playing around. I never said my fun and games meant anything, but I do think the much more sophisticated FRS test conducted back in 2001 holds merit.

I thought I'd throw some funny comparisons into the mix just to show my point... these things are meaningless! Since the Son of Sam sketch was described as looking like a middle aged black man (and I agree), the first comparison is of Berkowitz verses Black Panther Squire. The second one is of Berkowitz verses Kevin Cooper. The third one is of Berkowitz verses Mayfield...

People, it's just fun and games. I was just playing, but I think we all made some good points.


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Mar 18, 2008, 10:52 PM)
Attachments: Son of Sam 1.jpg (65.4 KB)
  Son of Sam 2.jpg (65.7 KB)
  Son of Sam 3.jpg (65.7 KB)


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