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377  (F 666)

Oct 19, 2012, 7:23 AM
Post #36951 of 55598 (36349 views)
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Re: [georger] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

I disagree Georger. Unless Cooper could jump, he was certain to be captured. I believe he knew he could jump the 727. I was a skydiver and an aviation buff in 71. Jumping unusual planes was an interest. It never occurred to me that a 727 was jumpable. I'd have expected door interlocks to prevent inadvertent depressurization, perhaps controlled by squat switches in the landing gear oleos so that a pressurized 727 on the ground could quickly deploy the stairs if needed in an emergency. I'd also have expected a rather severe pitch down moment from an air stair deployed into the airstream during flight, perhaps beyond the ability of elevator trim to allow for yoke neutral level flight.

Sure, ignorant idiots jumped from jets and landed safely, but Cooper left clues that distinguished him from these lucky Whuffos. He gave specifics: flap settings, pressurization command, landing gear configuration, altitude limit. All designed for slow flight and plenty of ambient oxygen in the depressurized cabin. I think Cooper knew that 727s were jumpable. The number of people who had that knowledge in 1971 was small. The pilots and FE didn't know. NWA flight ops didn't know. Boeing did know and it wasn't an educated guess. It was based on knowledge from extensive flight tests allegedly financed by the US govt who wanted the ability to use the 727 for covert airdrops.

I think Sheridan Peterson may have known this from his work at Boeing in tech documentation. Ted Braden may have known it from having be in special ops in Viet Nam. I bet the list of people with this knowledge who also had the skills to make the jump is small.

Could Cooper have been an ignorant lucky Whuffo? Yes. Do I think he was? Nope.

377


(This post was edited by 377 on Oct 19, 2012, 8:21 AM)


Amazon  (D License)

Oct 19, 2012, 9:23 AM
Post #36952 of 55598 (36339 views)
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Re: [377] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jo wrote
Quote:
I have been trying to work with what John told me and what Duane told me regarding planes.
John DID not explain why he would have had the Boeing designs in his home and I did NOT ask why. He had stated he was a consultant for Boeing for 6 yrs.

Jo,

All those alleged 727 design documents would not have answered the basic questions about whether the plane was jumpable. The answer isn't found in system diagrams or schematics.

377

Yeah.. Commercial division is not really into that sort of thing.. Hell even the pilots in test or certification do not wear parachutes. Those guys just assume the thing is gonna fly first time Sly
When we were building the first 787I was out helping with some "issues" on the shop floor . I was right there on Numero Uno.... I went to the aft cabin door, looked for any obstructions that might interfere with some fun... and volunteered to test jump it for them over Paine Field when they got it flying... They were SOOOO not interested.Unsure


Robert99

Oct 19, 2012, 10:00 AM
Post #36953 of 55598 (36332 views)
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Re: [377] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I disagree Georger. Unless Cooper could jump, he was certain to be captured. I believe he knew he could jump the 727. I was a skydiver and an aviation buff in 71. Jumping unusual planes was an interest. It never occurred to me that a 727 was jumpable. I'd have expected door interlocks to prevent inadvertent depressurization, perhaps controlled by squat switches in the landing gear oleos so that a pressurized 727 on the ground could quickly deploy the stairs if needed in an emergency. I'd also have expected a rather severe pitch down moment from an air stair deployed into the airstream during flight, perhaps beyond the ability of elevator trim to allow for yoke neutral level flight.

Sure, ignorant idiots jumped from jets and landed safely, but Cooper left clues that distinguished him from these lucky Whuffos. He gave specifics: flap settings, pressurization command, landing gear configuration, altitude limit. All designed for slow flight and plenty of ambient oxygen in the depressurized cabin. I think Cooper knew that 727s were jumpable. The number of people who had that knowledge in 1971 was small. The pilots and FE didn't know. NWA flight ops didn't know. Boeing did know and it wasn't an educated guess. It was based on knowledge from extensive flight tests allegedly financed by the US govt who wanted the ability to use the 727 for covert airdrops.

I think Sheridan Peterson may have known this from his work at Boeing in tech documentation. Ted Braden may have known it from having be in special ops in Viet Nam. I bet the list of people with this knowledge who also had the skills to make the jump is small.

Could Cooper have been an ignorant lucky Whuffo? Yes. Do I think he was? Nope.

377

I think you are 100 per cent correct abut the list of people who had the skills and knew the 727 could be jumped being very small.

And all of them probably had high level security clearances and knew what the letters CIA meant even though their employer of record may have been Southern Air Transport or other such company.

Robert99


Robert99

Oct 19, 2012, 11:08 AM
Post #36954 of 55598 (36324 views)
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Re: [Amazon] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Jo wrote
Quote:
I have been trying to work with what John told me and what Duane told me regarding planes.
John DID not explain why he would have had the Boeing designs in his home and I did NOT ask why. He had stated he was a consultant for Boeing for 6 yrs.

Jo,

All those alleged 727 design documents would not have answered the basic questions about whether the plane was jumpable. The answer isn't found in system diagrams or schematics.

377

Yeah.. Commercial division is not really into that sort of thing.. Hell even the pilots in test or certification do not wear parachutes. Those guys just assume the thing is gonna fly first time Sly
When we were building the first 787I was out helping with some "issues" on the shop floor . I was right there on Numero Uno.... I went to the aft cabin door, looked for any obstructions that might interfere with some fun... and volunteered to test jump it for them over Paine Field when they got it flying... They were SOOOO not interested.Unsure

Amazon, You have got some "trust issues" yourself. You obviously don't trust parachutes since you carry two or more on jumps.

And now you obviously don't trust aeronautical engineers. And probably ever pilot that works for Boeing and makes first flights, test flights, and/or certifications flights is also an aeronautical engineer.

A good shrink might be able to help with your own trust issues.

Robert99


377  (F 666)

Oct 19, 2012, 11:20 AM
Post #36955 of 55598 (36321 views)
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Re: [Robert99] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

Speaking of trust, some jumpers used to carry what were called tertiary canopies, a second reserve.

Never seen one. I wonder if a tertiary ever saved a jumper's life?

If I had a tertiary it would be a round canopy for sure.

377


Robert99

Oct 19, 2012, 11:50 AM
Post #36956 of 55598 (36298 views)
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DUANE'S PACKING HEAT [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All of this was after his trip to the mid-west and the friend of his seeing him counting a very large amount of money.

Did Duane Blackmail someone or did he rob someone who had obtained the money illegally?

Jo, Just get in touch with your local FBI office, give them the dates and location of Duane's visit to the mid-west, and ask them to check if they have any unsolved bank robberies in that area in that time frame. Who knows, the FBI might do your bidding for a change.

I doubt if Duane would give a hoot to hell how the people he was robbing came into possession of the money. Duane was not Robin Hood. He robbed from the "rich" (or at least the people who had money) and kept it for himself.

Robert99


mrshutter45

Oct 19, 2012, 12:32 PM
Post #36957 of 55598 (36288 views)
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Lots of Mony [In reply to] Can't Post

arrested 26 times and spent half his adult life in prison.......
do we really need to ask why he had large sums of money at times?????


skyjack71

Oct 19, 2012, 1:16 PM
Post #36958 of 55598 (36282 views)
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Re: [377] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jo wrote
Quote:
I have been trying to work with what John told me and what Duane told me regarding planes.
John DID not explain why he would have had the Boeing designs in his home and I did NOT ask why. He had stated he was a consultant for Boeing for 6 yrs.

Jo,

All those alleged 727 design documents would not have answered the basic questions about whether the plane was jumpable. The answer isn't found in system diagrams or schematics.

377

I AM not an Idiot - I know that!
You forget about the yrs of Duane's life that ARE not documented - 1962 to 1966 and that he claimed to have known Richard Petersen (not they one you guys talk about) and the Operations that "Paperlegs" was involved in.

I have explained before that I know Duane contacted Paperlegs in 1979 or early 1980 - I just know it was just before a great white out in the WY area.

You seem to forget about Intermountain! What Duane's involvement was beside KNOWING the guy - I have not got the answers for...but the relationship was MORE than a casual one.

She said she had a picture of his wife and herself and another woman made near one of the places the guys worked....she stated she hated that place because it was so far from anything.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Oct 19, 2012, 1:24 PM)


skyjack71

Oct 19, 2012, 1:33 PM
Post #36959 of 55598 (36272 views)
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Re: [377] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jo wrote
Quote:
Hey, YOU are an ATTORNEY! I am supposed to blurt out names and phone numbers of individuals and NOT expect consequences. I just do NOT do that. A few times I have slipped up and mentioned a name, but NOT in a really bad way.

Not asking for names Jo, just details about what the records you seek purport to prove.

Your selective partial disclosures and teases are counterproductive. They discourage people who might otherwise be inclined to help you with your investigation.

377

I am being selective because it is confidential and if I mentioned the source - then I would NEVER have access to these vital records and ledgers. Someone on my behalf has tried to obtain the "records" but the person who is in possession of these records for some reason has not made any arrangements for our access.

What the other party does NOT understand is that without my access - any information that might help is of NO Value - if one does NOT know what they are looking for. I don't need inpertintent info - but, there are targets withing these "records" that I do need access to.

If you want to know more - then pick up the phone and make a phone call - I do not have CALLER ID!


skyjack71

Oct 19, 2012, 1:42 PM
Post #36960 of 55598 (36645 views)
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Re: [Farflung] GASP! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks 377,

Wow, I haven’t felt this good since my proctologist said ‘All done.’

Duane was an amazing person in that he served honorably in two branches of the service, rather that the loser one service I was associated with. Much smarter to ‘stick it’ to the man rather than working at a Quickie Mart, selling Cheesy Poofs, and Bladder Busters to the self important gubberment retirees who would clack into the store, with their cloven hooves and bore me with their ‘I was in the service for twenty years’ stories, which had me browsing the homo-erotic magazines as a form of relief. But they seem to think they are as interesting as Duane.

Well we all know better, because no matter what you did, Duane did more. No matter how illustrious your service record, Duane’s is more impressive. No matter where you worked, Duane worked more and at more places and had family that did the same. You think you know history? Well Duane IS history.

He is….. the most interesting entity, in the universe, and beyond.

PLEASE STOP REFERRING TO DUANE WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT GEETSMAN OR SOMEONE ELSE. YOU MAKE A MOCKERY OUT OF ALL THE HARD WORK AND YRS I HAVE SPENT ON THIS.

THIS IS A FORMAL COMPLAINT TO QUADE -

PLEASE STOP THE RIDICULOUS POSTING SAYING DUANE DID THIS OR THAT WHEN THE ONLY PURPOSE THAT SERVES IS TO CONFUSE THE READER.

DUANE DID NOT HAVE AN IMPRESSIVE SERVICE RECORD - HE HAD A BAD CONDUCT DISCHARGE AND AN UNDESIRABLE!

JUST STOP THIS NOW! STOP MAKING A MOCKERY OUT OF THE 17 YRS I HAVE SPENT TRYING TO RESOLVE THIS. WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS DESTRUCTIVE AND MALICIOUS!

I HAVE NOT COMPLAINED ABOUT YOUR RIDICULOUS STORIES, BUT ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. YOU THINK IT IS FUNNY - WELL IT IS NOT!


skyjack71

Oct 19, 2012, 2:12 PM
Post #36961 of 55598 (36635 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

 
MAKING A CORRECTION TO THE POST BELOW!

Spinning a Story:

I know an ex-wife had some really bad experiences with Duane, but I do not believe he kept a weapon because of that.

As for the weapon being concealed the only one I know of was the 1990 incidents. What he was thinking or what he was up to I will never know. The shop was broke into 3 times after that - all three after Duane was put under 72 hr observation.

The authorities gave him back his gun.

All of this was ( BEFORE AND NOT after his trip to the mid-west and a friend of his seeing him counting a very large amount of money.

Did Duane Blackmail someone or did he rob someone who had obtained the money illegally? Why was Duane very leary of Private Eye who came to the shop several times? (I would later get intouch with this person and he was just a collector of the old old albums - that is all).

Why did Duane feel a need to have a gun strapped under his arm at that time in his life?

Above is what I know - if you want to spin a story go ahead.

I have only stated facts and the questions Duane's actions created.


377  (F 666)

Oct 19, 2012, 2:24 PM
Post #36962 of 55598 (36632 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Jo wrote
Quote:
Hey, YOU are an ATTORNEY! I am supposed to blurt out names and phone numbers of individuals and NOT expect consequences. I just do NOT do that. A few times I have slipped up and mentioned a name, but NOT in a really bad way.

Not asking for names Jo, just details about what the records you seek purport to prove.

Your selective partial disclosures and teases are counterproductive. They discourage people who might otherwise be inclined to help you with your investigation.

377

I am being selective because it is confidential and if I mentioned the source - then I would NEVER have access to these vital records and ledgers. Someone on my behalf has tried to obtain the "records" but the person who is in possession of these records for some reason has not made any arrangements for our access.

What the other party does NOT understand is that without my access - any information that might help is of NO Value - if one does NOT know what they are looking for. I don't need inpertintent info - but, there are targets withing these "records" that I do need access to.

If you want to know more - then pick up the phone and make a phone call - I do not have CALLER ID!

Sorry Jo, show your cards face up on this forum or count me out. Not interested in phone calls about confidential files, secrets, records etc.

If you want this case solved, put ALL your evidence on the table. If you seek only to prove that Duane was DBC, then play the game any way you wish.

You wonder why the FBI shows no interest in helping you. The rest of us dont wonder.

377


georger

Oct 19, 2012, 2:40 PM
Post #36963 of 55598 (36625 views)
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Re: [Robert99] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I disagree Georger. Unless Cooper could jump, he was certain to be captured. I believe he knew he could jump the 727. I was a skydiver and an aviation buff in 71. Jumping unusual planes was an interest. It never occurred to me that a 727 was jumpable. I'd have expected door interlocks to prevent inadvertent depressurization, perhaps controlled by squat switches in the landing gear oleos so that a pressurized 727 on the ground could quickly deploy the stairs if needed in an emergency. I'd also have expected a rather severe pitch down moment from an air stair deployed into the airstream during flight, perhaps beyond the ability of elevator trim to allow for yoke neutral level flight.

Sure, ignorant idiots jumped from jets and landed safely, but Cooper left clues that distinguished him from these lucky Whuffos. He gave specifics: flap settings, pressurization command, landing gear configuration, altitude limit. All designed for slow flight and plenty of ambient oxygen in the depressurized cabin. I think Cooper knew that 727s were jumpable. The number of people who had that knowledge in 1971 was small. The pilots and FE didn't know. NWA flight ops didn't know. Boeing did know and it wasn't an educated guess. It was based on knowledge from extensive flight tests allegedly financed by the US govt who wanted the ability to use the 727 for covert airdrops.

I think Sheridan Peterson may have known this from his work at Boeing in tech documentation. Ted Braden may have known it from having be in special ops in Viet Nam. I bet the list of people with this knowledge who also had the skills to make the jump is small.

Could Cooper have been an ignorant lucky Whuffo? Yes. Do I think he was? Nope.

377

I think you are 100 per cent correct abut the list of people who had the skills and knew the 727 could be jumped being very small.

And all of them probably had high level security clearances and knew what the letters CIA meant even though their employer of record may have been Southern Air Transport or other such company.

Robert99

And yours and 377's posts above nicely define the
problem, given to agents: trained in Criminology at
UMich, UWisc, SUI, or at FBI Training Schools; where
trained to focus on suspect populations -

Population I: small pool of persons which may link
to the crime visi-a-vis specific evidence at hand, eg.
Mssrs. Daniel B. Cooper (Oregon), Theodore
Mayfield (Washington), food service workers possibly
ethnic in the Portland area (Himmelsbach etal), etc.

Population II: small pool (described by Robt99 and
377 above who have specialised knowledge/skills).

Population III: larger pool of prior hyjackers & their
associates which may include political groups and
members. (Cuban connection 1960s-70s ?)

Population IV: much larger pool from which random
hyjackings and related crimes come from, but you
look for someone with a known criminal record with
prints on file -

Lacking specific evidence, if evidence does not lead
to a match, the problem becomes statistical in
nature with the investigation driven by agents
trained to look for (statistical) connections ...

The lack of a match in finger prints or photos forces
one back to looking at Populations I and IV whose
members might not have finger prints or a matching
photo on file, for one reason or another. That would
tend to eliminate people who had ever worked for
Boeing or been in the military all of who had finger
prints and photos on file?

Because at length, the real Cooper must match up!
And be a member of some population.

Let's leave it there -

In the back of your mind.


(This post was edited by georger on Oct 19, 2012, 2:47 PM)


georger

Oct 19, 2012, 2:42 PM
Post #36964 of 55598 (36623 views)
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Re: [377] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Sorry Jo, show your cards face up
And that is precisely what will never happen, because
it cannot happen. It's Jo's story - not Duane's story.


skyjack71

Oct 19, 2012, 3:04 PM
Post #36965 of 55598 (36615 views)
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Re: [377] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Could Cooper have been an ignorant lucky Whuffo? Yes. Do I think he was? Nope.

377

HE WAS! Cooper had enough information to know the -plane was jumpable. It is NO secret that the plane was jumped from the belly in 1968 - you have seen the film Snowman found.

If Cooper has spent sometime in a prison with a pilot or co-pilot in 1968 - he could have gleaned enough knowledge to know it was DO-able after all they spent their time sitting around talking about doing the BIG ONE!

The FIRST calls out of the prison system came from Jefferson, but the local FBI lost the notes these agents made or they have been destroyed. This caller claimed he knew who COOPER was....now remember Weber was not Weber in Jefferson - but COLLINS. Perhaps a convict trying to buy himself some good time off!

Carr claimed he try to find those records and for that I will give him credit.

The man Duane talked about in the N.W. may have been involved with the Boeings. He could have been John's partner in an investment that went sour and failed.

Duane talked about Pullyallup and a man who used to live there, but we were not going there. It was after this he mentions his brother and a partner making an investment in some commericial property they lost because it was at the wrong time. I have not been able to find out who that friend of John's was. The FBI didn't care!

He also mentions a man who flew the area and about flights to Vancouver CA and he mentioned other places.

Was all of the above about ONE person and not 2 different individuals?

I repeatedly told Mr H about this over the yrs. I thought everything I told him went to the FBI - what a horrid mistake! But, I was working long hours and I only had so much time and little money to devote to the past. Yet, now I realize maybe this information all went to the WRONG person...

The FBI did NOT call me and talk to me and ask me if I had anymore information - just what they took from my home in 1996. They never asked me about things connected to the N.W. during my marriage to Duane Weber...NOT one time.

I could not afford to call them and talk to them at length - I left it up to the FBI!

All Cooper needed was to find out how the door opened and when it could be opened....that information was NOT that difficult to come by if you knew someone who had knowledge of the Boeing 727 or someone who helped to develope the plane.

YES, it took more than just a pilot of the 727 to obtain that infomation. Was Cooper connected to one of the actions that required jumping from a 727 or did he just know the stories told about jumping from the aft stairs? How could he obtain the details he would need?

The FBI investigated many of the OPS and others who had knowledge of the aft stairs and the capability to jump from them and they did not find Cooper. They investigated many of them.

They also went looking for smokejumpers with this knowledge....remember they were NOT just looking for a smokejumper, but one with knowledge of the 727's. A rare combination don't you think? Of course they found nothing.

There were lots of yokels out there with enough knowledge to bail out with an old army chute, but not with the knowledge of the AFT stairs on a 727.

Who was gutsy enough to do such a jump? Well, someone who didn't care if he lived or died such as Duane Weber who had been handed a horrible death sentence. Ask anyone about dialysis in the 1970's it was gruesome. Frankly if I had faced what was facing Duane at 45 plus yrs and after seeing his mother die on the machine in 1958 - I would have tried to live my life to the fullest.

An ex-con did NOT have many options in 1971. He was no longer going to be able to do outside manual labor and the prognosis in 1971 - was very limited. Did Weber formulate a plan after the realization of what his future held? What kind of plan could he possible make for the situation?

Well he was an unemployable thief and had spent 16 yrs + of his life behind bars - what were his OPTIONS? He wanted the GOOD life - so how would he get the money he needed.

If he had to go on the machine in those days - he would have lived on the streets - and would have been allowed to die there.
We did NOT have medicare that would pay for his treatments without a permanent residence and disability was almost non-existent. He had no family he could turn too. What would you have done - KILLED YOURSELF, maybe?

Whether Cooper had help in formulating his plan or if it was a plan at all - was it out of desperation? I do believe the ACT was planned, but was anyone else involved?

Sure you guys think Weber was just a bungling ex-con who always got caught and his family wanted nothing to do with him, but WHAT IF he got lucky. What if this man with NO future ACTUALLY made it to the ground how did he get away?

Was there someone with him or did he contact someone after the fact for assistance?. If there was SOMEONE else involved why did they not come forward in all of these yrs? One they could have been prosecuted as an accessory after the fact or worse. Was this other person so fearful he did not talk about it or was Weber himself the one on the ground? I cannot image 2 men keeping this kind of secret for all of these yrs.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Oct 19, 2012, 3:25 PM)


Amazon  (D License)

Oct 19, 2012, 3:44 PM
Post #36966 of 55598 (36607 views)
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Re: [Robert99] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Jo wrote
Quote:
I have been trying to work with what John told me and what Duane told me regarding planes.
John DID not explain why he would have had the Boeing designs in his home and I did NOT ask why. He had stated he was a consultant for Boeing for 6 yrs.

Jo,

All those alleged 727 design documents would not have answered the basic questions about whether the plane was jumpable. The answer isn't found in system diagrams or schematics.

377

Yeah.. Commercial division is not really into that sort of thing.. Hell even the pilots in test or certification do not wear parachutes. Those guys just assume the thing is gonna fly first time Sly
When we were building the first 787I was out helping with some "issues" on the shop floor . I was right there on Numero Uno.... I went to the aft cabin door, looked for any obstructions that might interfere with some fun... and volunteered to test jump it for them over Paine Field when they got it flying... They were SOOOO not interested.Unsure

Amazon, You have got some "trust issues" yourself. You obviously don't trust parachutes since you carry two or more on jumps.

And now you obviously don't trust aeronautical engineers. And probably ever pilot that works for Boeing and makes first flights, test flights, and/or certifications flights is also an aeronautical engineer.

A good shrink might be able to help with your own trust issues.

Robert99

Nah.. no shrinks needed.. just more time in the airLaughLaugh

Tell me Robert... do you go SWIMMING in a boat????





If you really want to fly... get out of the damn airplane.Angelic


skyjack71

Oct 19, 2012, 3:57 PM
Post #36967 of 55598 (36604 views)
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Re: [377] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In reply to:
Sorry Jo, show your cards face up on this forum or count me out. Not interested in phone calls about confidential files, secrets, records etc.

If you want this case solved, put ALL your evidence on the table. If you seek only to prove that Duane was DBC, then play the game any way you wish.

You wonder why the FBI shows no interest in helping you. The rest of us don't wonder.

377

How DO you expect me to do THAT? Number one the FBI or someone else - would be right on top of it and destroy the key information I need. I won't let that happen!

If I revealed the source the FBI would confiscate the files and I AM the only one who KNOWS what I am looking for.

Just deleted the last paragraph! I need the help of a CA. Attorney and that is ALL I can say about what I am after.

I will NOT compromise the very thing that may solve this case. AT least for me if there is NOTHING there - then I have to WALK away....but, I feel the key is in those files.

The prints and DNA - do any of you have an actual realistic explanation for that. WAS Cooper a NO BODY who was never fingerprinted, remember this rules out just about anyone who had actual knowledge of the BOEING aft stairs?


Now for a REAL STORY!
Is this one a FANTASY?
Am I playing a game?
Am I teasing?

Perhaps Cooper had no record but had knowledge of jumping.

Someone who just disappeared off the face of the earth in 1971.

A man who was Nobody! Some one who served in the service, but had no criminal factors. A loner who knew Weber and thought the project was a lark.

What if Cooper did have a homing device on him - so he could be found by his partner. What if what the partner found was a dead or dying man. He was a friend, but how would he dispose of the body? If anyone found his body - it would lead a trail right back to him.

How would one dispose of a body if you had a vehicle and the body and the chute. Would you dispose of all the evidence in different places. Yes, of course.
Can't go far with a body or the chute and he has to dispose of the vehicle.

The body? Try old cemeterys.

The chute? Just about anywhere that would not be in the jump zone.

The nobody's ID? Cut it up and flush it.

The car? Might have been stolen but maybe bought under a fradulent name. Wonder what the car disposed of on Hwy 500 that wk-end was register to? Oh, and the rental at the PDX - the FBI never divulged the person it was rented to.

Wonder WHY the FBI never spoke about that car? Maybe someone removed it later and then disposed of it elsewhere - like Vegas.

There is a cemetery and a grave marker - perhaps there are 2 bodies buried there. Can anyone obtain a list of all of the deceased in WA in November 1971? Freaky right - but, what if one of those name stood out...there would still be DNA in that grave.

SmileWink
Now this could be Jo Spinning a STORY....probably, but it makes just about as much sense as the suspects and idea you guys come up with.


Robert99

Oct 19, 2012, 4:08 PM
Post #36968 of 55598 (36598 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Could Cooper have been an ignorant lucky Whuffo? Yes. Do I think he was? Nope.

377

HE WAS! Cooper had enough information to know the -plane was jumpable. It is NO secret that the plane was jumped from the belly in 1968 - you have seen the film Snowman found.

If Cooper has spent sometime in a prison with a pilot or co-pilot in 1968 - he could have gleaned enough knowledge to know it was DO-able after all they spent their time sitting around talking about doing the BIG ONE!

The FIRST calls out of the prison system came from Jefferson, but the local FBI lost the notes these agents made or they have been destroyed. This caller claimed he knew who COOPER was....now remember Weber was not Weber in Jefferson - but COLLINS. Perhaps a convict trying to buy himself some good time off!

Carr claimed he try to find those records and for that I will give him credit.

The man Duane talked about in the N.W. may have been involved with the Boeings. He could have been John's partner in an investment that went sour and failed.

Duane talked about Pullyallup and a man who used to live there, but we were not going there. It was after this he mentions his brother and a partner making an investment in some commericial property they lost because it was at the wrong time. I have not been able to find out who that friend of John's was. The FBI didn't care!

He also mentions a man who flew the area and about flights to Vancouver CA and he mentioned other places.

Was all of the above about ONE person and not 2 different individuals?

I repeatedly told Mr H about this over the yrs. I thought everything I told him went to the FBI - what a horrid mistake! But, I was working long hours and I only had so much time and little money to devote to the past. Yet, now I realize maybe this information all went to the WRONG person...

The FBI did NOT call me and talk to me and ask me if I had anymore information - just what they took from my home in 1996. They never asked me about things connected to the N.W. during my marriage to Duane Weber...NOT one time.

I could not afford to call them and talk to them at length - I left it up to the FBI!

All Cooper needed was to find out how the door opened and when it could be opened....that information was NOT that difficult to come by if you knew someone who had knowledge of the Boeing 727 or someone who helped to develope the plane.

YES, it took more than just a pilot of the 727 to obtain that infomation. Was Cooper connected to one of the actions that required jumping from a 727 or did he just know the stories told about jumping from the aft stairs? How could he obtain the details he would need?

The FBI investigated many of the OPS and others who had knowledge of the aft stairs and the capability to jump from them and they did not find Cooper. They investigated many of them.

They also went looking for smokejumpers with this knowledge....remember they were NOT just looking for a smokejumper, but one with knowledge of the 727's. A rare combination don't you think? Of course they found nothing.

There were lots of yokels out there with enough knowledge to bail out with an old army chute, but not with the knowledge of the AFT stairs on a 727.

Who was gutsy enough to do such a jump? Well, someone who didn't care if he lived or died such as Duane Weber who had been handed a horrible death sentence. Ask anyone about dialysis in the 1970's it was gruesome. Frankly if I had faced what was facing Duane at 45 plus yrs and after seeing his mother die on the machine in 1958 - I would have tried to live my life to the fullest.

An ex-con did NOT have many options in 1971. He was no longer going to be able to do outside manual labor and the prognosis in 1971 - was very limited. Did Weber formulate a plan after the realization of what his future held? What kind of plan could he possible make for the situation?

Well he was an unemployable thief and had spent 16 yrs + of his life behind bars - what were his OPTIONS? He wanted the GOOD life - so how would he get the money he needed.

If he had to go on the machine in those days - he would have lived on the streets - and would have been allowed to die there.
We did NOT have medicare that would pay for his treatments without a permanent residence and disability was almost non-existent. He had no family he could turn too. What would you have done - KILLED YOURSELF, maybe?

Whether Cooper had help in formulating his plan or if it was a plan at all - was it out of desperation? I do believe the ACT was planned, but was anyone else involved?

Sure you guys think Weber was just a bungling ex-con who always got caught and his family wanted nothing to do with him, but WHAT IF he got lucky. What if this man with NO future ACTUALLY made it to the ground how did he get away?

Was there someone with him or did he contact someone after the fact for assistance?. If there was SOMEONE else involved why did they not come forward in all of these yrs? One they could have been prosecuted as an accessory after the fact or worse. Was this other person so fearful he did not talk about it or was Weber himself the one on the ground? I cannot image 2 men keeping this kind of secret for all of these yrs.

Jo, I count 20+ "What if" type questions in the above. Your whole stock of theories about Duane doesn't add up to a single believable "fact" related to the possibility that Duane could have been involved in the hijacking in ANY capacity.

The real question for me is why have you spent 17 years trying to prove that you late husband was D.B. Cooper? What do you get out of it? Is it ego or money?

I doubt if anyone else on the planet would spend 17 minutes trying to prove that their late "dearly beloved", who was a known career criminal, did a specific crime.

In my opinion, you have already wasted those 17 years and you will waste any further time you spend on this fairey tale about Duane.

Robert99


Robert99

Oct 19, 2012, 4:22 PM
Post #36969 of 55598 (36596 views)
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Re: [Amazon] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Jo wrote
Quote:
I have been trying to work with what John told me and what Duane told me regarding planes.
John DID not explain why he would have had the Boeing designs in his home and I did NOT ask why. He had stated he was a consultant for Boeing for 6 yrs.

Jo,

All those alleged 727 design documents would not have answered the basic questions about whether the plane was jumpable. The answer isn't found in system diagrams or schematics.

377

Yeah.. Commercial division is not really into that sort of thing.. Hell even the pilots in test or certification do not wear parachutes. Those guys just assume the thing is gonna fly first time Sly
When we were building the first 787I was out helping with some "issues" on the shop floor . I was right there on Numero Uno.... I went to the aft cabin door, looked for any obstructions that might interfere with some fun... and volunteered to test jump it for them over Paine Field when they got it flying... They were SOOOO not interested.Unsure

Amazon, You have got some "trust issues" yourself. You obviously don't trust parachutes since you carry two or more on jumps.

And now you obviously don't trust aeronautical engineers. And probably ever pilot that works for Boeing and makes first flights, test flights, and/or certifications flights is also an aeronautical engineer.

A good shrink might be able to help with your own trust issues.

Robert99

Nah.. no shrinks needed.. just more time in the airLaughLaugh

Tell me Robert... do you go SWIMMING in a boat????





If you really want to fly... get out of the damn airplane.Angelic

Amazon, The last time I went swimming was when I happened to be in a canoe that capsized. I may have actually done some swimming in the canoe trying to get it upright again. Does that qualify?

Robert99
Swimmer, Retired
Aeronautical Engineer, Retired
Retired, Retired, Etc.


Robert99

Oct 19, 2012, 4:27 PM
Post #36970 of 55598 (36595 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

In reply to:
Sorry Jo, show your cards face up on this forum or count me out. Not interested in phone calls about confidential files, secrets, records etc.

If you want this case solved, put ALL your evidence on the table. If you seek only to prove that Duane was DBC, then play the game any way you wish.

You wonder why the FBI shows no interest in helping you. The rest of us don't wonder.

377

How DO you expect me to do THAT? Number one the FBI or someone else - would be right on top of it and destroy the key information I need. I won't let that happen!

If I revealed the source the FBI would confiscate the files and I AM the only one who KNOWS what I am looking for.

Just deleted the last paragraph! I need the help of a CA. Attorney and that is ALL I can say about what I am after.

I will NOT compromise the very thing that may solve this case. AT least for me if there is NOTHING there - then I have to WALK away....but, I feel the key is in those files.

The prints and DNA - do any of you have an actual realistic explanation for that. WAS Cooper a NO BODY who was never fingerprinted, remember this rules out just about anyone who had actual knowledge of the BOEING aft stairs?


Now for a REAL STORY!
Is this one a FANTASY?
Am I playing a game?
Am I teasing?

Perhaps Cooper had no record but had knowledge of jumping.

Someone who just disappeared off the face of the earth in 1971.

A man who was Nobody! Some one who served in the service, but had no criminal factors. A loner who knew Weber and thought the project was a lark.

What if Cooper did have a homing device on him - so he could be found by his partner. What if what the partner found was a dead or dying man. He was a friend, but how would he dispose of the body? If anyone found his body - it would lead a trail right back to him.

How would one dispose of a body if you had a vehicle and the body and the chute. Would you dispose of all the evidence in different places. Yes, of course.
Can't go far with a body or the chute and he has to dispose of the vehicle.

The body? Try old cemeterys.

The chute? Just about anywhere that would not be in the jump zone.

The nobody's ID? Cut it up and flush it.

The car? Might have been stolen but maybe bought under a fradulent name. Wonder what the car disposed of on Hwy 500 that wk-end was register to? Oh, and the rental at the PDX - the FBI never divulged the person it was rented to.

Wonder WHY the FBI never spoke about that car? Maybe someone removed it later and then disposed of it elsewhere - like Vegas.

There is a cemetery and a grave marker - perhaps there are 2 bodies buried there. Can anyone obtain a list of all of the deceased in WA in November 1971? Freaky right - but, what if one of those name stood out...there would still be DNA in that grave.

SmileWink
Now this could be Jo Spinning a STORY....probably, but it makes just about as much sense as the suspects and idea you guys come up with.

Jo, The answer is "yes" to the first part of your last sentence and "no" to the last part. Just more "What if" questions.

Robert99


377  (F 666)

Oct 19, 2012, 5:08 PM
Post #36971 of 55598 (36585 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

Jo wrote
Quote:
How DO you expect me to do THAT? Number one the FBI or someone else - would be right on top of it and destroy the key information I need. I won't let that happen!

If I revealed the source the FBI would confiscate the files and I AM the only one who KNOWS what I am looking for.

Again Jo, nobody is asking you to reveal the source, just the supposed contents of these files you believe are so crucial.

Sometimes you dont realize how empty your posts are. You want people to help you obtain some secret files from a secret person for a purpose that is also secret.

If you said more, you claim that the FBI would swoop in and suppress or destroy those crucial records.

Yawn.. Wake me up when you have some substantive evidence. For someone who claims they have little time left, you sure take the long road.

377


mrshutter45

Oct 19, 2012, 5:28 PM
Post #36972 of 55598 (36581 views)
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Cooper case...For Your Eyes Only??? [In reply to] Can't Post

between Jo and Knoss, the high security risk for showing evidence is off the chart, I just don't get all the secrecy???

News Alert......this was just an unsolved hijacking, this was not planned at "Area 51" or the Pentagon, a guy, man,
person stole money from Northwest Airlines and jumped out of a plane. nobody has been able to identify the individual
for over 40 years...end of News Alert.......


(This post was edited by mrshutter45 on Oct 19, 2012, 5:35 PM)


Farflung

Oct 19, 2012, 6:51 PM
Post #36973 of 55598 (36559 views)
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Submitted For Your Analysis, Immediate Rejection And Rebuke [In reply to] Can't Post

Throughout history, us humans have managed to lead with our chins, regarding technology. The miracle of the molecule produced thousands of fluoroscopes which were used to do to useful to things; to things which were utter balderdash, like check the fitting of shoes. Now we are restricted to less radiation from ten years of X-rays, compared to what were emitted during one shoe fitting.

Today I read this little gem about DNA and a couple dead people:

http://www.boston.com/...9dkipsIII/story.html

Imagine that, clearing some murder cases from 1973 with DNA extracted from a guy who has been dead for over 10 years. Truly another miracle of technology, serving man.

Then I start thinking downstream. Where is the presumption of innocence? The due process? And other constitutionally based things that we pretend to care about? Is this yet another glaring example of our scotoma of duplicity, since it serves so many purposes?

Who will complain? The ‘suspect’ is dead, so this will only serve as a huge relief to an undiscovered, but still living killer. The victim is dead, so there is no recourse there except maybe some family who can afford to have the evidence validated. I don’t know. Would this murder be ‘cleared’ sans a trial, or would there be a new version to one ‘in absentia’, called ‘ex vita abire’?

So this brings me to the pure and well researched case of DB Cooper. Already there are multiple cries from self proclaimed experts, of DNA Contamination or it being a ‘girlfriend’s’ DNA (which is amusing since gender is a base marker, but OK). There’s no way to know that the DNA belongs to Cooper is another favored declaration from the logic pool. So who is to say that the victim in the article didn’t have hot, rough, consensual and very, very, very secret sex with the ‘suspect’? Just like all the guano which has been published as fact about Cooper, where one person knows things that no one else can possibly know. Or the other selfless crowd who claim to have twenty years or more experience in some arcane practice, yet never have the talent to quote the book, page and paragraph, which they claim such familiarity. It is a pretty weird way to present things, where you are so painfully knowledgeable, that finding a published answer is impossible. Damn, that’s some deep knowledge there, I mean deep. But this is the profile of those who are ‘Natural Born’ fillintheblanks, where I was born knowing how to cry and fill a diaper, and had to learn everything else from a humble and patient instructor. Sure would have been nice to have avoided all that ‘schooling’ and gone straight to SKYGOD like everyone else. Oh well.

So now all the paths and threads which lead to DB Cooper, also lead to a dead end, if the suspect is dead, for reasons outlined above. As there appears to be no established process to follow if a guilty person is deceased. Even after the living are found guilty, in a court of law, by a unanimous vote, from a jury of their peers, they could still end up ‘innocent’ for eternity (Ken Lay, Budd Dwyer). If the guilty could become innocent, via death, THEN how can a dead person become guilty? Without a guilty party, how can a crime be removed from the books?

So there seems to be a permanent, albeit unintentional corner, which many have managed to paint themselves and this case into. Yep, this is all about DB Cooper, just the way everyone likes it. I do realize how devastatingly distracting it is, having to read several paragraphs which didn’t contain the name Cooper, thus leaving the average person with a reading comprehension measured at or below the seventh grade, in some sort of intellectual limbo where all you could think was, ‘What does this have to do with Cooper?’ Always a great way to draw maximum consideration to your cognitive abilities. Yes.

So what’s the moral answer to a case where DNA identifies or clears some old murder case? Never had DNA before, just like X-rays, and we may be using the DNA like fluoroscopes in a shoe store. I dunno, time for a stiff one.


skyjack71

Oct 19, 2012, 9:20 PM
Post #36974 of 55598 (36531 views)
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Re: [377] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jo wrote
Quote:
How DO you expect me to do THAT? Number one the FBI or someone else - would be right on top of it and destroy the key information I need. I won't let that happen!

If I revealed the source the FBI would confiscate the files and I AM the only one who KNOWS what I am looking for.

Again Jo, nobody is asking you to reveal the source, just the supposed contents of these files you believe are so crucial.

Sometimes you dont realize how empty your posts are. You want people to help you obtain some secret files from a secret person for a purpose that is also secret.

If you said more, you claim that the FBI would swoop in and suppress or destroy those crucial records.

Yawn.. Wake me up when you have some substantive evidence. For someone who claims they have little time left, you sure take the long road.

377

Hey, I am not putting myself out there for a lawsuit and the only way to explain what I have been working on would only cause the individual or individuals to become MORE difficult to deal with and hold out even more.

Sorry I brought the subject up but was hoping for a little support on this. If you knew the nature of the material you would UNDERSTAND why it has been difficult to access - only one person has control of this info and there is NO way to get access except thru this one individual.

ODD how people want a helping of whats on the table they are helpful, but when the buffet is hidden from view they just pass on by.


Robert99

Oct 19, 2012, 9:50 PM
Post #36975 of 55598 (36526 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Jo wrote
Quote:
How DO you expect me to do THAT? Number one the FBI or someone else - would be right on top of it and destroy the key information I need. I won't let that happen!

If I revealed the source the FBI would confiscate the files and I AM the only one who KNOWS what I am looking for.

Again Jo, nobody is asking you to reveal the source, just the supposed contents of these files you believe are so crucial.

Sometimes you dont realize how empty your posts are. You want people to help you obtain some secret files from a secret person for a purpose that is also secret.

If you said more, you claim that the FBI would swoop in and suppress or destroy those crucial records.

Yawn.. Wake me up when you have some substantive evidence. For someone who claims they have little time left, you sure take the long road.

377

Hey, I am not putting myself out there for a lawsuit and the only way to explain what I have been working on would only cause the individual or individuals to become MORE difficult to deal with and hold out even more.

Sorry I brought the subject up but was hoping for a little support on this. If you knew the nature of the material you would UNDERSTAND why it has been difficult to access - only one person has control of this info and there is NO way to get access except thru this one individual.

ODD how people want a helping of whats on the table they are helpful, but when the buffet is hidden from view they just pass on by.

Jo, How long have you and Knoss been playing this silly game? You are flip sides of the same coin. What is your purpose here? You and Knoss give me the impression that both of you are seriously delusional.

Robert99


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