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Robert99

Oct 15, 2012, 3:49 PM
Post #36901 of 52725 (19488 views)
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Re: [377] Tweet: Ask Mr. Science! [In reply to] Can't Post

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Quote:
Well, Weber had contacts with Boeing (more than one) and he was familiar with CHUTES. We have it from a very good source regarding an enquiry I made in the thread.

Remember my asking about airshow in CA and jumping exhibits in CA in the 30's. Well, low and BEHOLD Derry did participate in such and around the time Weber was there as a 10 yr old. Duane's brother who was 22 at that time went into the service and was VERY familiar with Boeing (so familiar he was a consultant for Boeing with the Army).

All I am going to say right now!

Of course, the tease, the promise, the eternal wait for fulfillment=Jo's very predictable MO.

Let us know when you have proof Jo... and it better be more substantive than a ten year old kid seeing something at an airshow and an older sibling who had a Boeing connection. BTW, Boeing's US Army connection was helicopters not fixed wing jet aircraft. The Air National Guard operated C 22s (Boeing 727-100 types) but ANG is Air Force, not Army.

Turning Duane from a zero to hero is a nearly impossible task even for someone as determined as you.
Duane is just a patheticly underqualified candidate. Still, I do admire your determination and think you are sincere in your beliefs.

377

Jo, What do you mean by Duane's older brother being in the Army and at the same time being a "consultant" for Boeing with the Army (presumably you are referring to the WW2 era Army Air Corps). This brother could not be working for both of them at the same time.

It was more than 26 years from the end of WW2 until the hijacking. The WW2 era Boeing aircraft had nothing to do with the 727s. And the fact that the 727 rear stairs could be lowered in flight was probably a very closely held piece of information since that capability was developed and used by the CIA.

Robert99


Robert99

Oct 15, 2012, 3:54 PM
Post #36902 of 52725 (19483 views)
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Excellent. And I'll bet Kitty landed on all four feet.

Robert99


skyjack71

Oct 15, 2012, 5:16 PM
Post #36903 of 52725 (19458 views)
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Re: [377] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
BTW, Boeing's US Army connection was helicopters not fixed wing jet aircraft. The Air National Guard operated C 22s (Boeing 727-100 types) but ANG is Air Force, not Army.

I didn't pay much attention to John's career, but we all realize there was more than met the eyes.

Duane idolized his big brother, but then Duane screwed up and did not live up to expectations and ended up in prison.

The Letter Duane wrote from Camp Siebert to his mother was positive and full of hope. It would only be days or wks before all of that came crashing to the ground - and finding a job picking apples did not exist for a 2 time looser with service connections.

I do not remember the date, but I believe his father died in 1956 and his mother in 1958.

John blamed Duane for their early demise and I never knew the details of the will, but Duane had told me his brother screwed him. Supposedly there was something going on regarding the will as late as 1966 per what I was told by Duane's lady of the times (his wife).

OK 377 - here GOES!

Notice of Hearing of Petition for probate of will.

No 404,104

In the Superior Court of the State of CA and and for the CO. of Los Angeles.
In the matter of the Estate of Lorraine B. Weber, Deceased petition of John C. Weber for the Probate of the Will of the above named deceased and for the issuance of Letters Testamentary thereon to hereby made for further particulars will be heard at 9:15 o'clock A.M., on June 18, 1958 at the court room of Dep 4, of the Superiour Court of the State of CA in and for the Coutny of Los Angeles, City of Los Angles

Dated May 20, 1958
Harold J. Ostly,
County Clerk and Clerk of the Surperior Court of the State of California, in and for the County of Los Angeles.

By H.L. McLean, Deputy
Noren Eaton
Attorney-at-law
Sierra Madre, Calif, EL. 5-3491
(A45451) May 21 -22-28

L.A. Daily Journal - MA 5-2141

Note Duane was still in prison per some records and by others he was released and in FL in St. Pete in 1957 and yet prison records have him in CA in 1958 - a REAL JIGSAW PUZZLE - even the FBI was unable to fix much less understand......The mother died in 1958 so that was the end of her journey and the journals.

Duane had spent most of his adult time in prison in 1958 - so he was like a child with a stick of dyamite - freedom and trouble and women and alcohol are a poor combination. I do know - Duane supposedly took up with John's wife - would be interesting to know her name and when they were divorce and in what area and what happened to her.

John NEVER had any children...so he claimed.

So lets see what some of you SHARPIES can do with this!


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Oct 15, 2012, 6:24 PM)


MeyerLouie

Oct 15, 2012, 5:56 PM
Post #36904 of 52725 (19451 views)
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Re: [RobertMBlevins] Weber Review [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
MeyerLouie says in part:

Quote:
'Blevins, I think Jo has pretty much shot down all of your arguments against her theory and premises. When I look at your KC=DBC theory, I have to ask, "where's the beef?" What proof have you offered? Zip. Don't think you have any room to criticize anybody else's lack of proof. That's pretty arrogant, Grand Miestro Peepee. Go practice your guitar now...'

Already did my practicing for the day...yesterday.

Most of those 'arguments' you cite don't address the issues I raised, but either play word games with them or somehow try to compare them to Christiansen.

There is a difference between offering evidence and actual proof of a crime. I think regarding the former we did quite well. There is a lot of evidence and witness testimony out there against Christiansen. Some of it has to do with Bernie Geestman's lies at key moments. Comparing the case between KC and Weber is actually pretty simple.

The only real evidence, if any, against Weber is the word of one woman. When I said 'physical evidence' I didn't mean fingerprints or DNA. I meant for example, a missing airline ticket stub, which cannot be produced. In the case of Weber, there ARE no witnesses. Just Jo. Even Gossett, if you believe his son(s) has a better case, since there is their testimony about certain quotes and incidents.

There are things which have been proven in the case of Christiansen. For example, we can prove he lent the alleged accomplice's sister five thousand in cash less than six months after the hijacking. We can prove he spent 16k in cash on a house less than eight months after the hijacking. And we can prove that Bernie Geestman, despite his denials, was involved in both these transactions. We can also prove that KC and Bernie were together, and missing, over the week of the hijacking. We can prove Kenny had parachute experience, although he hadn't jumped in some years. We can prove that without any visible means of how he acquired it, that Kenny died with a much larger estate than someone in his position could be expected to have. We can prove that Geestman told lies that directly relate to an effort to distance himself from any possible involvement in the hijacking. For example, when he said he couldn't have been involved because he was gone to sea with Foss Tugs ten to eleven months of the year in 1971. Foss says that is not true. Or when he said he didn't know the details on how his own sister got the loan from Kenny...but it was HE who delivered the money. Or when he said he didn't know how Kenny got his house for cash...when Kenny bought it from a couple where Bernie served as their Best Man at their wedding only three years previously.

None of that is proof Christiansen hijacked Flight 305, of course. But it IS evidence. And there is a lot more of that in KC's case than anything you'll find regarding Weber...Smile

My official stand on all of this is also very simple. I think we've presented enough evidence that the Seattle FBI should question the witnesses. This means Helen Jones, her daughter, Bernie Geestman, and Margaret Ann Miller-Geestman. Does anyone here have a problem with that? If so, I would like to know why.

I've started receiving responses from the Decoded cast on my question to them. I asked them to expand on the Geestman interview. Now, you should understand that at the time of filming, they did not know about Helen Jones' testimony, and AB had not yet discovered the tax document showing that KC bought his house from that couple in Puyallup that Geestman knew. Also...Decoded had to go on what evidence Porteous and I had at that time, plus the ORIGINAL edition of the book, which had actually been pulled by the time of filming. That said, here is what one of the cast members said this week. (I'm not revealing their name to you because frankly, I don't trust some of you)

Quote:
'Geestman was very cagey, even shifty during the interview. My personal suspicion was that he was actually drunk. But in the end he was pretty convincing--probably having spent years answering questions and even convincing himself that what he was saying was the truth. I have very little doubt that Kenny is guilty, and I went away from the interview with Geestman confused and uncertain about his involvement as an accomplice.

You have to remember that we were given very little time to process the interview and think about all he had said--they filmed us coming out the door, and those were our initial, on the spot responses. Then we filmed about an hour later in the diner and still, not much processing time and we'd been running around filming for weeks, months even.

Having had more time to think about it it would not surprise me in the least if Geestman was an accomplice, or at the very least knew about it and aided Kenny in some ways before or after...'

After I received this message, I updated this cast member with some of the additional evidence we had gathered since filming. This filming would be two years ago this month.
----------------------------------------------------------
Blevins,
I saw the Decoded episode (you're not what I thought you'd be -- you were pretty laid back, really laid back, in fact). I admit, it was very interesting and entertaining, great questions, great possibilities, great speculation --
but the evidence cited was all circumstantial, it proves nothing, or as you said, it provides no proof that KC hijacked 305. As with a couple of other examples: There's a lot of "circumstantial" evidence that the Kennedy assassination was a conspiracy, but not one shred of evidence has ever been presented to indicate any kind of conspiracy, period. Also lots of circumstantial and anecdotal evidence about the existence of Sasquatch has been presented over many decades, but not one piece of physical or DNA evidence has ever been presented. Without that, it's all just speculation. Your theory is very interesting and very entertaining, I've thought about it a lot, but like all other propositions here, actual physical evidence is just not there. That's what is sorely needed now. We squabble over our pet theories and assumptions, but without new physical evidence, that's all it is, squabbling and speculation. The only way this case is going to move forward or break wide open is with new physical evidence , period. Maybe we find one or some of those 20s, or we find a vital document that provdes proof of identity, or we find the parachute or the briefcase or the money bag, or a skeleton -- something, anything more than what we have now. We all need to keep digging for that one piece of evidence that's going to break the case. This should be our motivation for continuing on. MeyerLouie


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Oct 15, 2012, 7:06 PM
Post #36905 of 52725 (19433 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

It appears to have little to do with "Cooper" and more to do with Duane's History as a petty Criminal, family failure and societal reject.

As an aside: I wouldn't say Duane was Service Connected, and it appears his brother was connected to the Army, not AF, that is a huge distinction.

Matt


mrshutter45

Oct 15, 2012, 7:36 PM
Post #36906 of 52725 (19424 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

"So lets see what some of you SHARPIES can do with this! "

the problem I see is the fact that it really has nothing to do "evidence wise" with the crime 13 years later?
record keeping was never 100% accurate from my understanding.

I understand the point of you pointing out all of the mistakes made
record wise with Duane's past, but this still doesn't put him anywhere near flight 305.

if the mistakes were made back then, who do we blame? we have blame on the FBI from 1960 and on if not mistaken.

seems to me it kind of fits him, Duane was not perfect and neither were his records.


skyjack71

Oct 15, 2012, 8:35 PM
Post #36907 of 52725 (19404 views)
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Re: [mrshutter45] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Seems to me it kind of fits him, Duane was not perfect and neither were his records.

LaughLaughLaugh
Well, at least someone has a sense of humor about this. If ever there was any one statement ever made about Weber - that one just about covered it all.

We need to coin that phrase.
"Duane was NOT perfect and neither were his records". YEA! It kinda FITS him!

A friend of Duane's sent me an old letter recently Duane had written the Christmas before he died. This friend like many others felt Duane was a GOOD person and a GOOD friend. I have only spoke to one person who HATED his guts - that was one of his ex-wives.

He was just like that - everyone trusted him and liked him, yet this man had spent 16 yrs in multiple prisons - even I find it HARD to believe......and I lived with this person for 17 yrs.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Oct 15, 2012, 8:36 PM)


georger

Oct 15, 2012, 8:57 PM
Post #36908 of 52725 (19390 views)
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Re: [Robert99] Tweet: Ask Mr. Science! [In reply to] Can't Post

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Excellent. And I'll bet Kitty landed on all four feet.


Robert99

Priceless! This is worth sharing. I wonder if
Baumgartner has seen this ?


skyjack71

Oct 15, 2012, 9:13 PM
Post #36909 of 52725 (19383 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It appears to have little to do with "Cooper" and more to do with Duane's History as a petty Criminal, family failure and societal reject.

As an aside: I wouldn't say Duane was Service Connected, and it appears his brother was connected to the Army, not AF, that is a huge distinction.

Matt

To Call him a societal reject - is way off base if you actual talked to people who knew him - ONLY one person had BAD things to say about him.

As for the brother - it may have been Army - I had no reason to dig up the old files to verify either as I know he was a Boeing consultant - regardless of what kind of Boeing it was.

The brother told me about the Schematics to the 727 and other Boeings being all over the house.....because of what John did. Perhaps someone needs to look up John and find out his background - did this brother feed me lies? I seriously doubt that!

I know John had a friend who worked with Boeing and they bought some property in the Tacoma Area - it was a bad time and they lost money. I never found out who this partner was.

Duane had talked about a friend of his brother's who flew to Alaska and he named several other areas along the Canadian borderline. I don't know what they did. This was why I jumped yrs ago on a man known to be a pilot out of the area by the name of Burnworth with Salt Lake connections. BUT, Burnworth was not the man I was looking for.

The last time John saw his brother was in 1958 or 1959. Duane was in CA a couple of times in the 60's not to exceed 3 months at a time before he was sent to Jefferson...this is when he and his wife supposedly worked for an airline (I have the name of the airline in my files but momentarily it has slipped my mind). He went back in 1977 - I put him on the plane and picked him up....so he could wash an ex wife out of his mind.

Both Duane and the ex-wife told me about working for an airline service delivering meals to the planes. I think it was more like they worked for the caterer and not the airline - but she even spelled out the name and we spent quiet a bit of time chasing that down on the thread.

I told Himmelsbach about the match book and I described it to him - this was way before I had a computer and in the early part of my communications with Mr. H.
This is when he told me about Cooper taking a match book, but it did NO good because an old match book was one of the first thing I ditched when I cleaned things out after Duane died.

I guess all I have left is the piece of airplane window - which I find extremely puzzling unless it was something John or his father had that Duane helped himself too. The individuals who looked at it said it was airplane window material....which is what I thought it was.

Mickey - your guess is as good as mine. NO where in the investigation of Cooper does any witness mention a Mickey Mouse or Billy....who was one of the Mouseketters.....probably NO connections, but among the contents of his memory drawer he did not want me to touch.

All of this JUST BECAUSE!


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Oct 15, 2012, 9:23 PM)


Robert99

Oct 15, 2012, 9:54 PM
Post #36910 of 52725 (19375 views)
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CALLING MR. SCIENCE [In reply to] Can't Post

Red Bull Stratos now has a page on Wikipedia giving more details on the jump. Of course, still more details would have been helpful. But some comments from me follow below.

Red Bull states that Felix reached the speed of sound at 98,000 feet after 40 seconds of free fall. They don't give the exact jump altitude but it was very close to 128,000 feet.

A few days ago, I saw something (which I cannot now find) on the Red Bull web page to the effect that, jumping from the planned 120,000 feet, Felix was expected to go supersonic at about 95,000 feet and would be decelerating before getting to 90,0000 feet.

So the altitude range where Felix was expected to go supersonic is consistent between the two jump altitudes mentioned.

Using the 1976 US Standard Atmosphere and a geometric altitude of 98,000 feet, the temperature is given as 226.4 degrees Kelvin or -46.8 degrees Centigrade. And the speed of sound is given as 301.62 meters/second which is calculated to be 1085.832 kilometers/hour.

Red Bull claims a Mach number of 1.24 so multiplying that by 1085.832 kilometers/hour gives 1346.4 kilometers/hour compared to Red Bull's claim of 1342.0 kilometers/hour. That is close enough for me in view of slight rounding differences.

It is apparent that Red Bull and I were probably both using the 1976 US Standard Atmosphere numbers or their equivalent.

The speed of sound is a function of ambient temperature and increases with temperature. The standard temperatures shown above are significantly lower than the temperatures shown for the higher altitudes during the jump.

From about 35,000 feet above sea level to about 65,000 feet above sea level, the temperatures shown on TV during the ascent were up to 90.0 degrees Fahrenheit below zero and then increased to slightly above zero as the balloon ascended above 100,000 feet.

Measuring temperatures accurately at extreme heights is a real problem. Red Bull needs to use the actual temperatures encountered around 100,000 feet and not the standard values given in the altitude tables. And using the actual temperatures, they need to calculate the actual speed of sound for the altitudes they are discussing. If there is an error in their calculations, it will probably be related to the temperatures used to determine the speed of sound.

As you may have noticed on the TV monitors, the balloon also had a ground speed of about 120 miles per hour for a while as it was going through the jet stream altitudes.

Also, from what I could see of Felix's spinning, it started about 55 or 60 seconds into the free fall. According to Red Bull's estimate, that would be about 15 or 20 seconds after Felix went supersonic.

I hope Red Bull releases all the detailed data about how they determined when Felix went supersonic and how they did their calculations. It is just a case of showing your work.

Robert99


Robert99

Oct 15, 2012, 10:12 PM
Post #36911 of 52725 (19372 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Boeing Connections [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The brother told me about the Schematics to the 727 and other Boeings being all over the house.....because of what John did.

Jo, This is nonsense. If John had those documents, which is very unlikely, then he stole them.

No aircraft manufacturer is going to allow the schematics or any other piece of information about their under-development aircraft to leave their facility except under very controlled circumstances.

Since you have apparently never visited an aircraft manufacturing facility, you apparently don't realize that there are guards at the gate that check all the employees, their brief cases, their lunch boxes, and anything else they have with them.

Your statement about John just won't fly.

Robert99


Farflung

Oct 15, 2012, 10:14 PM
Post #36912 of 52725 (19371 views)
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Re: [Robert99] CALLING MR. SCIENCE [In reply to] Can't Post

That jump from the stratosphere yesterday reminded me of some rarefied experiments from my youth which must remain undisclosed due to several non-disclosure agreements and restraining orders. It was when I transferred from aircraft to space vehicles. Woo-hoo! No drag in the vacuum of space, so this should be a breeze where a pineapple is as aerodynamic as an SR-71.

Not so fast Grasshopper, because you have traded concerns about drag and range for impossibly light weight budgets and obscene reliability testing. Man, does everything have to suck?

I’m working with a team on some type of future space junk that was in a low orbit and needed to be stabilized, just like a skydiver. But wings and rudders won’t do Jack Squat in space since there is no atmosphere. So one of the friendless geeks (Code for: wicked smart dudes) designs a spring (world’s simplest tool) which launches the vehicle out of the container with a bit of asymmetric thrust, which allows for spin stabilization with high reliability (just a spring) and a low weight budget. I’m sure everyone recalls Newton’s first law, so I won’t bore anyone, but that vehicle was able to sustain a stabilized (rotational axis perpendicular to Earth) orbit with one input at launch. I know, exciting!

Then Felix is standing on his capsule’s front porch in near space and steps into a virtual vacuum where stabilization is a concern. So here’s what I thought after opening a third beer. Why not leverage Newton’s law while maintaining your ‘Z’ axis via gravity, with a ‘step off’ that induces an intentional rotation around that axis from the platform? Greyout would be less of a risk in relation to a flat spin or tumble and upon sensing the effects of drag, entering a denser altitude, the skydiver would use traditional stabilization (non rotational) techniques for the balance of the journey. After all, wasn’t he in a space suit? Hellooooooo, you must have come from space. I mean the Space Shuttle enters the atmosphere in an inverted attitude just before the tracking beam from Area 51 activates the cloaking device where it touches down in a Los Angeles shopping mall.

http://www.shopfloor.org/...uttle-endeavor/26532

Nothing warms my heart more than the chant of USA! USA! USA! While the finest of America’s technology is towed by a Tundra.


georger

Oct 15, 2012, 10:48 PM
Post #36913 of 52725 (19365 views)
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Re: [Robert99] CALLING MR. SCIENCE [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Red Bull Stratos now has a page on Wikipedia giving more details on the jump. Of course, still more details would have been helpful. But some comments from me follow below.

Red Bull states that Felix reached the speed of sound at 98,000 feet after 40 seconds of free fall. They don't give the exact jump altitude but it was very close to 128,000 feet.

A few days ago, I saw something (which I cannot now find) on the Red Bull web page to the effect that, jumping from the planned 120,000 feet, Felix was expected to go supersonic at about 95,000 feet and would be decelerating before getting to 90,0000 feet.

So the altitude range where Felix was expected to go supersonic is consistent between the two jump altitudes mentioned.

Using the 1976 US Standard Atmosphere and a geometric altitude of 98,000 feet, the temperature is given as 226.4 degrees Kelvin or -46.8 degrees Centigrade. And the speed of sound is given as 301.62 meters/second which is calculated to be 1085.832 kilometers/hour.

Red Bull claims a Mach number of 1.24 so multiplying that by 1085.832 kilometers/hour gives 1346.4 kilometers/hour compared to Red Bull's claim of 1342.0 kilometers/hour. That is close enough for me in view of slight rounding differences.

It is apparent that Red Bull and I were probably both using the 1976 US Standard Atmosphere numbers or their equivalent.

The speed of sound is a function of ambient temperature and increases with temperature. The standard temperatures shown above are significantly lower than the temperatures shown for the higher altitudes during the jump.

From about 35,000 feet above sea level to about 65,000 feet above sea level, the temperatures shown on TV during the ascent were up to 90.0 degrees Fahrenheit below zero and then increased to slightly above zero as the balloon ascended above 100,000 feet.

Measuring temperatures accurately at extreme heights is a real problem. Red Bull needs to use the actual temperatures encountered around 100,000 feet and not the standard values given in the altitude tables. And using the actual temperatures, they need to calculate the actual speed of sound for the altitudes they are discussing. If there is an error in their calculations, it will probably be related to the temperatures used to determine the speed of sound.

As you may have noticed on the TV monitors, the balloon also had a ground speed of about 120 miles per hour for a while as it was going through the jet stream altitudes.

Also, from what I could see of Felix's spinning, it started about 55 or 60 seconds into the free fall. According to Red Bull's estimate, that would be about 15 or 20 seconds after Felix went supersonic.

I hope Red Bull releases all the detailed data about how they determined when Felix went supersonic and how they did their calculations. It is just a case of showing your work.

Robert99

Not sure of your link but I found this last night -
the links in the bibli are good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bull_Stratos


Robert99

Oct 15, 2012, 11:01 PM
Post #36914 of 52725 (19360 views)
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Re: [georger] CALLING MR. SCIENCE [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Red Bull Stratos now has a page on Wikipedia giving more details on the jump. Of course, still more details would have been helpful. But some comments from me follow below.

Red Bull states that Felix reached the speed of sound at 98,000 feet after 40 seconds of free fall. They don't give the exact jump altitude but it was very close to 128,000 feet.

A few days ago, I saw something (which I cannot now find) on the Red Bull web page to the effect that, jumping from the planned 120,000 feet, Felix was expected to go supersonic at about 95,000 feet and would be decelerating before getting to 90,0000 feet.

So the altitude range where Felix was expected to go supersonic is consistent between the two jump altitudes mentioned.

Using the 1976 US Standard Atmosphere and a geometric altitude of 98,000 feet, the temperature is given as 226.4 degrees Kelvin or -46.8 degrees Centigrade. And the speed of sound is given as 301.62 meters/second which is calculated to be 1085.832 kilometers/hour.

Red Bull claims a Mach number of 1.24 so multiplying that by 1085.832 kilometers/hour gives 1346.4 kilometers/hour compared to Red Bull's claim of 1342.0 kilometers/hour. That is close enough for me in view of slight rounding differences.

It is apparent that Red Bull and I were probably both using the 1976 US Standard Atmosphere numbers or their equivalent.

The speed of sound is a function of ambient temperature and increases with temperature. The standard temperatures shown above are significantly lower than the temperatures shown for the higher altitudes during the jump.

From about 35,000 feet above sea level to about 65,000 feet above sea level, the temperatures shown on TV during the ascent were up to 90.0 degrees Fahrenheit below zero and then increased to slightly above zero as the balloon ascended above 100,000 feet.

Measuring temperatures accurately at extreme heights is a real problem. Red Bull needs to use the actual temperatures encountered around 100,000 feet and not the standard values given in the altitude tables. And using the actual temperatures, they need to calculate the actual speed of sound for the altitudes they are discussing. If there is an error in their calculations, it will probably be related to the temperatures used to determine the speed of sound.

As you may have noticed on the TV monitors, the balloon also had a ground speed of about 120 miles per hour for a while as it was going through the jet stream altitudes.

Also, from what I could see of Felix's spinning, it started about 55 or 60 seconds into the free fall. According to Red Bull's estimate, that would be about 15 or 20 seconds after Felix went supersonic.

I hope Red Bull releases all the detailed data about how they determined when Felix went supersonic and how they did their calculations. It is just a case of showing your work.

Robert99

Not sure of your link but I found this last night -
the links in the bibli are good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bull_Stratos

That is the correct link.


georger

Oct 16, 2012, 12:45 AM
Post #36915 of 52725 (19353 views)
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Re: [Robert99] CALLING MR. SCIENCE [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Also, from what I could see of Felix's spinning, it started about 55 or 60 seconds into the free fall. According to Red Bull's estimate, that would be about 15 or 20 seconds after Felix went supersonic.

I hope Red Bull releases all the detailed data about how they determined when Felix went supersonic and how they did their calculations. It is just a case of showing your work.

Robert99
Not sure of your link but I found this last night -
the links in the bibli are good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bull_Stratos
That is the correct link.Was going to post several others but lost isp, now
back - try this: some nice tech links

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/JianHuang.shtml

and another at Wierd Science.com

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/02/stratos-
space-jump-can-you-fall-faster-than-the-speed-of-
sound/


(This post was edited by georger on Oct 16, 2012, 1:57 AM)


georger

Oct 16, 2012, 2:41 AM
Post #36916 of 52725 (19339 views)
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Re: [Farflung] CALLING MR. SCIENCE [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That jump from the stratosphere yesterday reminded me of some rarefied experiments from my youth which must remain undisclosed due to several non-disclosure agreements and restraining orders. It was when I transferred from aircraft to space vehicles. Woo-hoo! No drag in the vacuum of space, so this should be a breeze where a pineapple is as aerodynamic as an SR-71.

Not so fast Grasshopper, because you have traded concerns about drag and range for impossibly light weight budgets and obscene reliability testing. Man, does everything have to suck?

I’m working with a team on some type of future space junk that was in a low orbit and needed to be stabilized, just like a skydiver. But wings and rudders won’t do Jack Squat in space since there is no atmosphere. So one of the friendless geeks (Code for: wicked smart dudes) designs a spring (world’s simplest tool) which launches the vehicle out of the container with a bit of asymmetric thrust, which allows for spin stabilization with high reliability (just a spring) and a low weight budget. I’m sure everyone recalls Newton’s first law, so I won’t bore anyone, but that vehicle was able to sustain a stabilized (rotational axis perpendicular to Earth) orbit with one input at launch. I know, exciting!

Then Felix is standing on his capsule’s front porch in near space and steps into a virtual vacuum where stabilization is a concern. So here’s what I thought after opening a third beer. Why not leverage Newton’s law while maintaining your ‘Z’ axis via gravity, with a ‘step off’ that induces an intentional rotation around that axis from the platform? .

Thats a good question. My guess is they chose not
to for several reasons, if it even came up, as it might
have with Kittinger's experience.

My guess is they didnt want to introduce any type of
spin as denser air was going to be encountered,
fearing any spin might translate into destructive
forces, vs. as vertical a drop as possible in order to
maximize acceleration and minimize drag
components.

It still is a good question. I wonder if it was
discussed?

At 128k feet you are still in the 20% zone - the
region where roughly 20% of the atmopshere is
between 12-31 miles. Air density at 128k feet is
7.3x10-4 kg/m^3 vs. 1.2 kg/m^3 at sea level.
Any spin at that alititude would produce some drag
vs the vertical gravitational component. Gravity at
128k is virtually the same as on the surface of the
earth - not weightless space where forces can be
rather quickly balanced if need be.


RobertMBlevins

Oct 16, 2012, 2:50 AM
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Laid back? Is that how I appeared on Decoded? I just saw a post back there about that. That's only because it was TV and you have to be polite. I suppose most of the time I am.

There have been OTHER times, though. Like the time I was washed out into the Pacific for a few days with nothing more than a leaky raft. Or spending over a month stranded in the Cascades and really not caring that much. (It was just camping to me, more or less)

But the time I faced down a wounded bear with nothing more than a Belgian Browning .22, now that was something else. A camping trip in the Olympics, a day hike, and a poor bear that a hunter had stupidly wounded and let escape.

I had about three seconds to decide what to do. So I did it. Rather than sending you to the article, I'll just reprint it here. Laid back? That's a laugh.

Quote:
'I don't hunt that much, but when I do, we EAT the results and sell the hide to the local guy who buys that stuff. This was not one of those times.

Let me share a really scary story here.

A few years back I was camping with a friend up in the high country of the Olympic mountains. We were at the very end of a Forest Service road near a small lake where nobody goes much. We weren't there to hunt, just to do a little fishing.

I went hiking away from camp, and my hike took me to the top of a clear-cut, so I started down, intending to go up the other side to a mountain trail. There was a big brown bear at the bottom of the clear cut. We made eye contact. He was about 100 yards away. The second he saw me, he started charging up the hill. I could actually see his shoulder muscles rippling as he ran up the hill toward me. I realized in an instant that running away was not an option. He would have caught me in seconds.

The only weapon I had was a .22 caliber Belgian Browning automatic. I took it out and started shooting at him. Pop, pop, pop. After about pop number seven, he turned away and tried to hide beneath a fallen log that was lying up against a big boulder. I know I hit him at least five times. He's charging up the hill, I am taking aim and firing.

Well, he's wounded now and I know he will come back and ravage our campsite later, maybe even kill us. I shouted for my friend Jeff to bring the rifle. It's a Marlin 22 tube-loader. We didn't have any bigger firepower going for that trip. Jeff comes over and we climb onto the top of a boulder to get an angle and spot the bear hiding down in the clear cut. We opened up with everything we had, putting maybe sixty rounds into this bear.

Finally...the bear falls over, but it's in the high grass and we can't see it anymore. Someone has to go down and check it to make sure it's dead. We flipped a coin. I lost.

I go down into the clear cut with this Belgian Browning fully extended in front of me, ready to pop off ten quick rounds if necessary...and run like hell if needed. The bear is dead.

When I get closer, I saw the bear had been wounded previously by some idiot hunter who hadn't finished it off, and the wound smelled to high heaven. This is why the bear charged without warning. It was in terrible pain. It was a BS thing all around and we sure didn't like having to finish what that hunter started. I almost had a heart attack when he came up that friggin' hill.

On the way home we stopped in at the local ranger station and told them what happened. They weren't mad at us, only the hunter who wounded the bear...'

None of you posting here know me at all. Not really. You just believe you do. Feel free to rip me to shreds for killing the bear (something I did NOT enjoy doing) but I would do the same thing again in the same situation.

Lesson: Don't go camping with me.


(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Oct 16, 2012, 2:57 AM)


mrshutter45

Oct 16, 2012, 3:01 AM
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Jo, one of your first moves about John should have been finding any information to support the "Boeing " link.

If I'm not mistaken the word "Schematic" typically means electrical drawings.

I agree with Robert99, those would be classified documents which would give us yet another Weber thief.

you yourself said John and Duane didn't get a long so how did he get a hold of the documents?

even if he had the drawings, did he know how to read them? they will not explain the rear stairs could be opened in flight.


(This post was edited by mrshutter45 on Oct 16, 2012, 3:06 AM)


377  (F 666)

Oct 16, 2012, 4:21 AM
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Quote:
even if he had the drawings, did he know how to read them? they will not explain the rear stairs could be opened in flight.

Correct. I have the basic 727 tech manuals (flight, systems, etc) and none disclose that the air stairs can be deployed in flight. I am an engineer and do know how read schematics. I very much doubt if Duane could read electrical or hydraulic schematics. Even if he could, the 727 schematics and system diagrams do not answer the critical question about flying with the stairs down.

377


smokin99

Oct 16, 2012, 8:44 AM
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Quote:
Then Felix is standing on his capsule’s front porch in near space and steps into a virtual vacuum where stabilization is a concern. So here’s what I thought after opening a third beer. Why not leverage Newton’s law while maintaining your ‘Z’ axis via gravity, with a ‘step off’ that induces an intentional rotation around that axis from the platform?


lol..Gotta love a man of science. The only thing I think while opening that third beer is "now where did I put the freakin cheetos?" Smile


Robert99

Oct 16, 2012, 10:11 AM
Post #36921 of 52725 (19282 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
Then Felix is standing on his capsule’s front porch in near space and steps into a virtual vacuum where stabilization is a concern. So here’s what I thought after opening a third beer. Why not leverage Newton’s law while maintaining your ‘Z’ axis via gravity, with a ‘step off’ that induces an intentional rotation around that axis from the platform?


lol..Gotta love a man of science. The only thing I think while opening that third beer is "now where did I put the freakin cheetos?" Smile

Interestingly enough, there is information somewhere on the Red Bull web page that thought was given to spinning with a drogue chute open.

In Kittinger's jump, I understand that the drogue chute was connected to the middle of the back pack. Therefore, Kittinger could actually get into a bad flat spin even with the drogue open.

In Felix Baumgartner's case, the drogue was attached to the top of the left shoulder of the harness. Deploying the drogue, which could be done either manually or automatically, would move him into a heads up position and, being offset from the body's centerline, would stop the spinning (at least in theory).

Robert99


Farflung

Oct 16, 2012, 10:24 AM
Post #36922 of 52725 (19280 views)
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Georger says all science-y:

Any spin at that alititude would produce some drag
vs the vertical gravitational component. Gravity at
128k is virtually the same as on the surface of the
earth - not weightless space where forces can be
rather quickly balanced if need be
.”

Exactly. So I figured that some ‘benchmarking’ of other industries and sciences was in order. What other activity requires precise control of induced forces which counteract one another with an extremely high reliability?

First I figured a student should spend hours and hours in a Barany chair, for reasons I have not managed to define as of yet. But if I was forced to be humiliated in one of those things, while a fetching Flight Nurse looked on, then so will everyone else. I’m consistent like that.

This would progress to the study of ballet, where the creation of an instant and stable spin is required in order to maintain poise and balance upon return to the surface. These diaphanous women manage to complete several revolutions using nothing more than their sculpted, feminine and hypnotic legs, while elevating themselves on the tips of their toes. This would make for a logical primary training in body stabilization in a small time frame. Plus, have you seen the legs on those ballerinas? I could think of worse things to getting washed-back on that phase of training.

Next is a group of people who don’t have the luxury of tens of thousands of feet, to get their act together before a bone crushing return to Earth. Not only do they have to stabilize in a scant few seconds, they do it with virtually no equipment, unlike the safety apparel laden skydiver. Of course I’m referring to divers who stand at the nape of a death altitude, then with the utmost precision and repeatability, jump, spin, stabilize and break the surface of the water with barely a ripple. They do this, all the while looking scorching hot while they wait or towel off or give their teammates long congratulatory hugs. This is obviously the next level of study if the science of aviation is to expect any advances in the next century.

Again, because I care too much, I’ve decided to establish a center for the training of spin stabilized jumping, in a near vacuum, so the person to break the ‘Red Bull’ record won’t have to worry about grey-outs or uncontrolled descents. This combination of space flight dynamics with arcane ‘Air Breather’ techniques is what will propel the next jump to 250,000 feet, or as the units will be renamed once one of my graduates shatters this record; 250,000 farfs. Yes.
Attachments: Farf's Atitude Recovery Training.jpg (170 KB)


Robert99

Oct 16, 2012, 10:42 AM
Post #36923 of 52725 (19274 views)
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In reply to:
Georger says all science-y:

Any spin at that alititude would produce some drag
vs the vertical gravitational component. Gravity at
128k is virtually the same as on the surface of the
earth - not weightless space where forces can be
rather quickly balanced if need be
.”

Exactly. So I figured that some ‘benchmarking’ of other industries and sciences was in order. What other activity requires precise control of induced forces which counteract one another with an extremely high reliability?

First I figured a student should spend hours and hours in a Barany chair, for reasons I have not managed to define as of yet. But if I was forced to be humiliated in one of those things, while a fetching Flight Nurse looked on, then so will everyone else. I’m consistent like that.

This would progress to the study of ballet, where the creation of an instant and stable spin is required in order to maintain poise and balance upon return to the surface. These diaphanous women manage to complete several revolutions using nothing more than their sculpted, feminine and hypnotic legs, while elevating themselves on the tips of their toes. This would make for a logical primary training in body stabilization in a small time frame. Plus, have you seen the legs on those ballerinas? I could think of worse things to getting washed-back on that phase of training.

Next is a group of people who don’t have the luxury of tens of thousands of feet, to get their act together before a bone crushing return to Earth. Not only do they have to stabilize in a scant few seconds, they do it with virtually no equipment, unlike the safety apparel laden skydiver. Of course I’m referring to divers who stand at the nape of a death altitude, then with the utmost precision and repeatability, jump, spin, stabilize and break the surface of the water with barely a ripple. They do this, all the while looking scorching hot while they wait or towel off or give their teammates long congratulatory hugs. This is obviously the next level of study if the science of aviation is to expect any advances in the next century.

Again, because I care too much, I’ve decided to establish a center for the training of spin stabilized jumping, in a near vacuum, so the person to break the ‘Red Bull’ record won’t have to worry about grey-outs or uncontrolled descents. This combination of space flight dynamics with arcane ‘Air Breather’ techniques is what will propel the next jump to 250,000 feet, or as the units will be renamed once one of my graduates shatters this record; 250,000 farfs. Yes.

The word is that Felix had spent a lot of time practicing that first step in order to prevent any rotation or spinning. And when he disappeared from view, maybe two miles below the capsule, the overhead camera was still showing him in a very stable and slightly head down position.

I think the people in the control room were actually cheering because he was so stable.

Robert99


377  (F 666)

Oct 16, 2012, 11:36 AM
Post #36924 of 52725 (19265 views)
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Farf wrote
Quote:
Again, because I care too much, I’ve decided to establish a center for the training of spin stabilized jumping,

Sign me up Farf. Bring on the Ballerinas. Are they Russian?

An easier stab augmentation could have been employed: a pre spun gyro mass strapped to Felix in an orientation that would buck a flat spin.

The latest yachts are now using internal rotating masses to counter roll rather than the older external gyro controlled anti roll fins. Less drag, better fuel economy.

http://www.seakeeper.com/

Sheridan Peterson has been active in 2012 on Google Plus. It's his usual anti govt anti war stuff. You gotta love an old lefty skydiver. Somehow this ranting has more cred coming from Sheridan an ex Marine, ex USFS smoke jumper, and Nam advisor than if it came from an old hippie.

Sheridan, if you are reading this just say hello. I am not FBI or CIA, just an old jumper with politics similar to yours who'd like to meet you and chat. I pass through Windsor now and then and would be honored to buy you a meal, some beer and listen to your thoughts on a variety of subjects that I think we share an interest in.

377


Farflung

Oct 16, 2012, 11:49 AM
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Robert99,

The capsule Felix jumped from represented the best horizon reference and fixed platform to establish a controlled rotation, thus it appeared to be designed to step off- versus- setting an axis of rotation. A couple of gyros could have been integrated into the jump, but I prefer simple before complex solutions. Another technique could have been designed into the exterior platform, where the floor begins a rotation while dropping away like the door on a gallows. That may be too surreal of a design considering some of the potential results.

I was trained to use the ‘tuck’ (cannonball) position when bailing out. No pirouettes, gainers or face down, frog modified postures, just a tuck. I’m willing to bet, if I fell out of a plane, I would go into a ‘tuck’ position. This was considered the simplest and safest technique to train aircrew, and it comforted us since we could also use that position to kiss our ass goodbye. So everybody wins.

Since Kittinger used the step off technique, which resulted in a spin, it only makes sense that when Felix stepped off, the result would be a spin. You are still in a near vacuum where aerodynamic forces are minimal. Just like the Apollo 15 experiment where a hammer and feather were dropped and hit the surface of the Moon at the same moment. I realize there are legions of people who believe he should have used a duck’s feather instead of one from a falcon to alter the results.

If I had to choose a devil, I would choose the smallest one. I’m assuming (assuming here) that a controlled spin around the ‘Z’ axis of the human body would deliver the lowest risk, while approaching heavier air where body control can be used to establish a stable (non rotating) descent posture. Those women diving off thirty foot high platforms achieve stable postures with very limited benefit of drag forces versus inertial energies. But how radical can one be with something so rare and expensive? The goal was to break some records and the ‘Red Bull’ team certainly did that with great results, no one was hurt. Of course that won’t impede my quest for ‘Continuous Improvement’, be it aviation or finding a way to hang out with ballerinas under the guise of helping all mankind.


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