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DB Cooper

 

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ltdiver  (D 20506)

Feb 23, 2008, 9:41 AM
Post #251 of 55571 (44751 views)
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Re: [Orange1] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have just done a search through the old thread and I can't find the reference, so maybe I mis-remembered. But I thought that i recalled you stating that his illness and belief that he did not have very long to live (I paraphrased to months) as a possible motive.

I seem to recall that too, but I'm not searching through that thread!

I recall this statement as well. So, I did a cursory search and found this. Not the exact phrase (wherever that may reside) but a statement that implies that his health was in serious jeopardy and we logically imply that this also means failing health.

http://www.dropzone.com/...ne%20health;#3027194

ltdiver


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 23, 2008, 10:00 AM
Post #252 of 55571 (44746 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
8. He may have jumped from the plane at 2011 PST (based on “pressure bump”) or as late as 2015 PST. (Note 2011 would be about 5 NM North of the BTG VOR and 2015 would be about 2.5 SW of the BTG VOR. [Based on Flight Tracking Strip (Radar based) supplied by the FBI].

If the pressure bump was not recorded at the actual time it occurred, if the time was backwards estimated based on recollections, he may also have jumped earlier or later.

Mark


Orange1  (B 2638)

Feb 23, 2008, 10:30 PM
Post #253 of 55571 (44691 views)
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Re: [ltdiver] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I recall this statement as well. So, I did a cursory search and found this. Not the exact phrase (wherever that may reside) but a statement that implies that his health was in serious jeopardy and we logically imply that this also means failing health.

http://www.dropzone.com/...ne%20health;#3027194

This wasn't quite what I had recalled so I went to do a (cursory, also) search anyway Angelic - and i think it was this sentence that had led me to the conclusion we all seem to have arrived at:

Quote:
I have told the FBI and others over and over: Duane was desperate - a man diagnosed with a disease that was considered to be fatal at that time and with a painful life on rudimentary dialysis. He did not want to die the way his mother did - and he made his choice --- his one last chance to prove he was not a Mouse or a misfit who had to live up to the image of his brother.

original post: http://www.dropzone.com/...e%20disease;#3065614


(This post was edited by Orange1 on Feb 23, 2008, 10:31 PM)


ElJosh  (A 51040)

Feb 23, 2008, 10:57 PM
Post #254 of 55571 (44685 views)
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Re: [Orange1] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone listening to AM coast to coast tonight?


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 24, 2008, 7:02 AM
Post #255 of 55571 (44657 views)
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Re: [Orange1] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Orange1 and Itdiver, I thought that I had made it all up.


skyjack71

Feb 24, 2008, 7:08 PM
Post #256 of 55571 (44611 views)
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Duane was desperate - a man diagnosed with a disease that was considered to be fatal at that time and with a painful life on rudimentary dialysis. He did not want to die the way his mother did - and he made his choice --- his one last chance to prove he was not a Mouse or a misfit who had to live up to the image of his brother.

WinkYou and others did not search far enough and there are individuals posting here that feel they have to discredit me to prove their own theory. (I am not out there trying to discredit them.) For the record I have explained this many times --- and will do so one last time. Perhaps you who do not understand kidney disease and its' progression and history.

FrownIn 1971 Duane Weber was told that he had a kidney disease. His mother had died on the rudimentary machines of the 50's and this is not how he wanted to die. Little was know about kidney disease in 1971 - they would later find (yrs. later) that the kind of kidney disease he had went in stages depending on how one took care of themselves.

UnimpressedIn 1971 - most people did not survive long term with kidney disease after being placed on the machine - 2 yrs to 5 ys max. The equipment was not the equipment they have today - even with the technology of today it is debilitating and death usually results in 5 yrs or so - the machine cannot do what the kidneys do without damaging the body. Duane was on the machine for the last 5 yrs of his life - you do not want to know how they suffer even today in 2008.

In 1971 he was drinking, smoking and eating everything he shouldn't - his blood pressure skyrocketed - this is how they found the disease.
In 1971 they didn't know what they know about the different forms of the disease - Duane had one of the slower forms called polycystic which moves in stages and these stages advance according to the life style.

Unsure Unfortunately they lumped it all together in 1971 - the Doctors told their patients - "Your kidneys are failing and you are looking at a kidney machine in couple of yrs."

THINK! 1971 - and the Dr. makes that statement to you. Your mother died on the machine and back then it wasn't 3 or 4 hours - 3 times a wk. It was more hours and more times a wk. What would have been your state of mind? You are in good physical health, strong swimmer, participate in very physical activities - are you ready to die within 5 yrs one of the worst deaths known to man?

Put yourself in the place of this man in 1971.

Are you re-thinking everything you have done with your life - that 17 yrs of your life was spent in prison? What do you have to show for your life?

FOR GOD's SAKE - listen to me and think. WHAT would YOU DO? - I do not want to hear one more word about his health. I also do not want to be hounded about our neighbor of 1984 who just happened to be a jumper or the fact that he happened to know where McCoy was killed in Va. The individuals who take these things and make repetivite posts about something so mundane - are not interested in finding out who Cooper was.

These individuals need to be productive - such as contacting the co-pilot - find out the exact time of the pressure change, although it has been recorded over and over in books and news articles that they said he jumped at 8:12/8:13 - Spend your time looking this up. The crew looked at their own watch and instruments, yet there are those who for their own benefit refuse to believe that - now it is when it was recorded, etc. All the speculating and guessing the time is futile.

SmileA fact is a fact. Why don't one of you call the co-pilot before he dies? The pilot is already dead.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Feb 24, 2008, 7:22 PM)


Orange1  (B 2638)

Feb 24, 2008, 7:44 PM
Post #257 of 55571 (44602 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] This is a generic DB Cooper thread [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Duane was desperate - a man diagnosed with a disease that was considered to be fatal at that time and with a painful life on rudimentary dialysis. He did not want to die the way his mother did - and he made his choice --- his one last chance to prove he was not a Mouse or a misfit who had to live up to the image of his brother.

You and others did not search far enough and there are individuals posting here that feel they have to discredit me to prove their own theory. (I am not out there trying to discredit them.)

Crazy Jo, no-one is "trying to discredit" you to prove their own theory (or at least I'm not as I don't have my own theory anymore). A few of us had come to the same conclusion from previous posts of yours (that Duane was in a nothing to lose situation because of an illness) and were trying to figure out why we had thought that especially given your answer to Nigel99's other post which seemed to dismiss it entirely. So we figured it out. Simple as that, and nothing to do with the progression of kidney disease.

But as for
Quote:
I do not want to hear one more word about his health.
... well, by now you should have figured out that people will post along any line of discussion that happens to interest them.

And actually I don't see why you have such a problem with the fact that people are interested that Duane might have know McCoy, especially as you were originally trying to place Duane in the company of known skydivers. The conclusion some people might draw from your response here - in fact that a number have already posted - is that you are only interested in evidence that proves your theory about who DB Cooper was. Other people as you correctly point out, are interested in proving their theories, of which they seem as convinced as you are about Duane. Still others, like me, are being open-minded, having had theories along the way but discarded them due to certain bits of evidence. So we would prefer not to narrow the discussion.


377  (F 666)

Feb 27, 2008, 9:00 AM
Post #258 of 55571 (44456 views)
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Re: [Orange1] This is a generic DB Cooper thread [In reply to] Can't Post

Has this forum gone in with a no pull?

I keep wondering about Quade's speculation about some money leaving the plane before Cooper did. Does anyone have a response? Sluggo?


Albert18

Feb 27, 2008, 9:40 AM
Post #259 of 55571 (44448 views)
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Re: [377] This is a generic DB Cooper thread [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know why the money would leave the airplane at a different time than Cooper. Plus Tina said she saw him working on securing the money to himself.


winsor  (D 13715)

Feb 27, 2008, 10:30 AM
Post #260 of 55571 (44435 views)
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In reply to:
Has this forum gone in with a no pull?

I keep wondering about Quade's speculation about some money leaving the plane before Cooper did. Does anyone have a response? Sluggo?

When you get past all the nonsense, there are more unknowns than equations. My suspicion is that Cooper did not survive the experience, and that all the theorists and claimants to the contrary are endlessly running in circles.

As far as the money and Cooper becoming separate, it is simply a matter of when and how that occurred. According to Bernie whatsisname, author of the "Real McCoy" book, Cooper stuffed a couple of bundles of bills in his pockets before somehow securing the rest of the money otherwise.

Thus, the money found in the river could have been from a pocket that was blown open on exit, from the otherwise secured money that was blown loose on exit, or washed loose from wherever his body came to rest.

If he hit the river (or a tributary) and the money broke loose some time later, this could account for its arrival after the dredging operaton.

If he died and his body was not discovered in a timely manner, the likelihood that his remains will be located and identified at this point round off to zero.


Blue skies,

Winsor


377  (F 666)

Feb 27, 2008, 1:23 PM
Post #261 of 55571 (44406 views)
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Re: [winsor] This is a generic DB Cooper thread [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Winsor's conclusion is probably the most likely, but if Cooper died in that 727 jump why wasn't he missed by friends, relatives, employer, etc etc? Anyone who went missing around that time and even looked slightly like the Cooper FBI sketch would have raised a few eyebrows. Sure, if Cooper were a TOTAL loner his death might have gone unnoticed, but the odds of him being a total recluse loner are low. Very few people have no connections and would die unnoticed. If he owned a car or a house or was a renter or had a credit card, someone would notice if he died.


skyjack71

Feb 27, 2008, 11:50 PM
Post #262 of 55571 (44351 views)
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In reply to:
I think Winsor's conclusion is probably the most likely, but if Cooper died in that 727 jump why wasn't he missed by friends, relatives, employer, etc etc? Anyone who went missing around that time and even looked slightly like the Cooper FBI sketch would have raised a few eyebrows. Sure, if Cooper were a TOTAL loner his death might have gone unnoticed, but the odds of him being a total recluse loner are low. Very few people have no connections and would die unnoticed. If he owned a car or a house or was a renter or had a credit card, someone would notice if he died.


Isn't this where someone says "Bingo"?

I am not dead yet and I have something I am working on - I am getting that tie - tied down.
Because some of the information I provided the investigator was not correct, I had to back-up. Busy getting that done --- I haven't given up --- I know he was Cooper and some way some how I will prove it.

Wonder if the FBI is interested in an old knife that has some cord stuck in it - looks like parachute cord and it is real dirty? Where-ever he kept that knife it was there for a long time collecting dirt. There were some things I am glad I did not let the FBI have.


Erroll

Feb 28, 2008, 1:50 AM
Post #263 of 55571 (44348 views)
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In reply to:
... looks like parachute cord

You've seen a lot of 'parachute cord' then?


377  (F 666)

Feb 28, 2008, 1:51 AM
Post #264 of 55571 (44348 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] This is a generic DB Cooper thread [In reply to] Can't Post

Jo,

If you have really good relevant evidence like a dirty knife definitely linked to Duane that has parachute shroud line material stuck in it, then show it to Ckret. If he brings in the Cooper case he will be a law enforcement legend. I don't buy it at all that he would ignore or try to suppress evidence that could solve the Cooper case. Did you just find this knife? I assume so since I don't recall any mention of it when you were looking for anything at all that could link Duane to a parachute. All I recall was an as yet unidentified piece of hardware that you sold but recalled the appearance of.

The knife and cord sounds interesting. Post some pix.

377


Orange1  (B 2638)

Feb 28, 2008, 11:23 AM
Post #265 of 55571 (44291 views)
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In reply to:
If he owned a car or a house or was a renter or had a credit card, someone would notice if he died.

How many people had credit cards in those days? If you rent and you give notice because you expect to be somewhere far away with money, your landlord will expect you to be gone.


(This post was edited by Orange1 on Feb 28, 2008, 11:24 AM)


377  (F 666)

Feb 29, 2008, 5:51 AM
Post #266 of 55571 (44227 views)
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Isn't this where someone says "Bingo"?


Wonder if the FBI is interested in an old knife that has some cord stuck in it - looks like parachute cord and it is real dirty? Where-ever he kept that knife it was there for a long time collecting dirt.

Jo,
If you say Bingo then please show us the knife with the stuck (parachute?) cord which gives you a winning Bingo card. If you post detailed close up photos the riggers here can probably identify the cord type as parachute or other. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. There are many on this forum who rule out Duane because there is nothing linking him to a chute, ever. If you have that link then it's time to show it.
377


highspeeddirt

Feb 29, 2008, 7:33 AM
Post #267 of 55571 (44211 views)
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i agree


Guru312  (C 6814)

Feb 29, 2008, 9:54 AM
Post #268 of 55571 (44186 views)
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i agree

Me too!!!

Come on, Jo, time to show us what'cha got.


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 29, 2008, 7:16 PM
Post #269 of 55571 (44130 views)
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Jo,

Per your question:

In reply to:
What I do want to know is WHO did this re-evaluation in the last 5 yrs. Those who were involved do not know anything about this re-evaluation.

I have been trying (unsuccessfully) to sort out a discrepancy between two map images that came from the FBI. Both were produced in late 1971 or early 1980. Low-res versions have been posted on this website. The file names used when posted or at least when I put them on my computer were:
FBI Calculated Landing Zone - is the monochrome topographic map with all the straight lines and letters representing points. For convenience sake we will call it the Lake Merwin Map.
Flight Path 2 – This is color map image of a VFR aviation chart (I assume a Seattle Sectional). It is an enlargement of the last few inches of the large strip on the FBI website. The area covered is pretty large and there is no scale (showing) so it is hard to estimate distances. For convenience sake we will call it the Portland Chart.

Both maps are from 1971 or 1972. I believe the Lake Merwin Map was used for the January 1972 search for Cooper’s remains. I have no idea what the Portland Chart was used for, but, this map has is some hand-written tic-marks showing 2005 PST and 2010 PST as major marks along the flight path and 2008 and 2009 as minor marks with arrows pointing about 5 – 10 miles east of the flight path line. The 2010 tic-mark is just WSW of the Merwin Dam. Obviously, in 1971–1972 the assumption was that Cooper jumped near the Merwin Dam at 2010.

On Jan 22, 2008, Larry Carr (of the FBI) stated in post # 1286 (this board): “The crew referenced a call to Cooper at 8:05 PM when making a statement about the pressure change, stating the pressure bump occurred 5 to 10 minutes after this. They further stated that when they felt the pressure change they were not yet to Portland but definitely in the suburbs”. [Emphasis Mine]

On Jan 27, 2008, Mr. Carr stated in post #1454: “This area had to be, according to the flight crew, in the areas north of Vancouver between the 8:11 - 8:15 time frame." [Emphasis Mine]

So, I have modified Fact #8 to read:

8. At the time of the hijacking and subsequent search, it was assumed he jumped from the plane at or near the Merwin Dam (2011 PST (based on a reported “pressure bump”). In 2008, the FBI extended the calculation to 2013, 2014, or 2015, which would put the jump somewhere near Orchard, WA. Note: Orchard is 6 miles SE of the BTG VOR. [Based on Flight Tracking Strip (Radar based) supplied by the FBI and posts on DZ.com forum].

As I stated before; “it isn’t a fact, unless we all can agree it is a fact”. So, everybody okay with the new #8?

Thanks for everybody’s help in building a database of facts and myths,


Sluggo_Monster


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 29, 2008, 7:52 PM
Post #270 of 55571 (44127 views)
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In reply to:
Quade is right, strictly speaking, nothing is proven by these finds. To my mind, the odds say Cooper exited at the time of the pressure bump and that the placard and found money very roughly define a line of flight. I guess turbulence could have bumped the door, but I think the more likely explanation is that Cooper's exit did it, especially after looking at the sled exit test in flight photos. I hadn't really thought about the possibility that the found money was accidently (or intentionally??) dropped prior to Cooper's exit. Another example of how helpful it is to get different viewpoints posted here. Sluggo, what about a pre exit release of a small part of the loot? Your thoughts?



Hey, anything is possible. But If you mean an “intentional release”… nah…. To what end?

With the wind blowing everything around near the back of the plane, there was a great possibility that a bundle or two “flew away”. And, I doubt he would give a rat’s behind.

If you are talking about the Ingram find specifically, there’s no way that money hit the elements (in the state it was found) in 1971. It was part of the whole bag, or a smaller cache, that was protected for at least 8 years before it was exposed to the elements.

If you’re thinking the Ingram find was dropped in flight and settled somewhere near Tena Bar and got caught-up in a semi-protected state, then due to wind, water, erosion, etc. made it’s way onto the sandbar circa 1979… well… I don’t think so. The flight path was 4 miles east of the bar. If it left the plane at the river crossing it would have gone east. It would have spent 9 years in the water before being found. (Maybe a windsurfer in The Dalles found it!) Wink

The placard? I’m going with; “departed the plane at door opening”. That placard wasn’t designed to withstand those wind speeds. I guessing that it was assumed (by Boeing) that those stairs would never be opened in flight.

Neither the placard nor the Ingram money necessarily left the plane with Cooper, but my money is on… Placard at door opening, Ingram money with Cooper.


Sluggo


skyjack71

Mar 1, 2008, 12:42 AM
Post #271 of 55571 (44102 views)
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In reply to:
8. At the time of the hijacking and subsequent search, it was assumed he jumped from the plane at or near the Merwin Dam (2011 PST (based on a reported “pressure bump”). In 2008, the FBI extended the calculation to 2013, 2014, or 2015, which would put the jump somewhere near Orchard, WA. Note: Orchard is 6 miles SE of the BTG VOR. [Based on Flight Tracking Strip (Radar based) supplied by the FBI and posts on DZ.com forum].

As I stated before; “it isn’t a fact, unless we all can agree it is a fact”. So, everybody okay with the new #8?

HOW CAN YOU CHANGE FACTS: Carr only stated a variance because the money being found did not support the original landing zone - IT WAS NOT A FACT.

Do you actually think that the FBI spent all of that money for the tests and the maps and calulating a landing zone based on a 10 minute variance? AS PER the teletype the oscilation occured at 8:12 - The FBI testing showed that the pump and the oscillation concured due to the aft stairs movement from the pressure of Coopers weight being released.

NO evidence has been presented to suggest that the original landing Zone as calculated by NW and the FBI is anything but accurate....I can understand a 2 minute variance but 10 minutes - that is preposterous...and laughable - I am not a pilot or a jumper but I know enough to think a 10 minute variance is creating a story of fiction...before we know it Cooper will have landed at Lake Pyramid.


skyjack71

Mar 1, 2008, 1:01 AM
Post #272 of 55571 (44100 views)
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In reply to:
please show us the knife with the stuck (parachute?) cord which gives you a winning Bingo card. If you post detailed close up photos the riggers here can probably identify the cord type as parachute or other. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. There are many on this forum who rule out Duane because there is nothing linking him to a chute, ever. If you have that link then it's time to show it.
377

Do you know how long the FBI kept things I sent before and then what the contented? - Well, I held onto somethings. This knife is very old and it has been in a plastic bag since I found it in his belongings...I do not know how to take a picture where anyone could see the details - and there is no way of knowing if it is chute cord without an analysis.

There is a fragment of a cord in the knife - I don't know what kind of cord, but it is very dirty - It appears that the knife may have been buried with the money due to the condition...but it could just be an old knife he found.

If someone knows a photographer in my area who can photograph this knife without touching it and then taking the piece of cord out with a pair of tweezers (which I have done and then put it back in place). This would have to be done infront witnesses so the FBI could never cry - foul.

I have told CARR that I had a knife that may have been used to cut the cords and could they match the cuts...he NEVER replied to that statement. The FBI is not interested in anything I say...I just don't know why I bother to even try.

I got another phone call from the guy who hounded me in the past...he was nicer than before but I stlll think he is Catcher. No one, but Catcher could be dumb enough to ask the question he did in reply to an email I sent to him. It was NOT the reply of an Attorney which he claims to be. I checked this many out yrs ago - and found no attorney by the name he provided. He lives in WA and yet claims NO knowledge of the accusations against Mayfield. Do the rest of you think I am dumb enough to fall for that one? HARDLY!


Sluggo_Monster

Mar 1, 2008, 9:24 AM
Post #273 of 55571 (44066 views)
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Jo,

I don't know what to say. If you want to hold on to 2011 at Merwin Dam, then #8 (as I have re-written it) allows that. It just also mentions that there may have been mistakes made in the reporting.


In reply to:
Do you actually think that the FBI spent all of that money for the tests and the maps and calulating a landing zone based on a 10 minute variance? AS PER the teletype the oscilation occured at 8:12 - The FBI testing showed that the pump and the oscillation concured due to the aft stairs movement from the pressure of Coopers weight being released.

I believe the landing zone map was produced before the test (in 1972 for the January search). I have no idea where you get a 10 minute variance; they said 10 min from 2005. That would allow for 2015 as a viable jump time.




In reply to:
NO evidence has been presented to suggest that the original landing Zone as calculated by NW and the FBI is anything but accurate....

Consider this:
Page 104 of the TTY report says the plane was at 15,000 feet at 2001. Is that a fact? Do you believe the plane was ever at 15,000 feet? Did the FBI and NW landing zone calculation account for a fall time (drift time) from 15,000 feet? Is the reported altitude accurate?



I'm not being argumentative; I'm trying to bring to the table the skills that I have from years of accident investigation. Those skills tell me that:

  • There was some prejudice in the early investigation (Himmelsbach (sp) was convinced Cooper died and gravitated toward evidence that supported his theory and rejected evidence that was contrary to his beliefs.

  • The FBI used conventional techniques to investigate an unconventional crime.

  • In the 36 years since the crime, the myths have overcome the facts of the case.

  • The kind of thinking (investigation) that hasn’t led to a solution in the last 36.5 years, will not lead to a solution in the next 5 years.



The only way to ferret out the facts is to weigh each against others (ie. “They further stated that when they felt the pressure change they were not yet to Portland but definitely in the suburbs”. against “he jumped from the plane at 2011 at or near Merwin Dam”. By your definition these are both “facts”, but, both of these cannot be true. That’s why I’m trying to build a data base of “facts”, so those who wish to attempt to investigate can know what information has been released to the public.

I would like to hear from others in regard to Fact #8. Do I need to refine it?

Thanks to all,

Sluggo_Monster


(This post was edited by Sluggo_Monster on Mar 1, 2008, 9:26 AM)


dumstuntzz

Mar 2, 2008, 7:57 AM
Post #274 of 55571 (44008 views)
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"there is no way of knowing it is parchute cord without an analysis"....I DISAGREE. parachute cord (Or in the case of either a 26' navy conical or a 28'military canopy, 550 lb nylon type3 suspension line) is fairly distinctive . it is a woven outer sheath with 7 inner strands ,one of which is colored . these colors identify the manufacturer,each having their own distinctive combination of colors. if you have a piece of 550 cord on that knife and the color code matches the color code on the chute left behind, then you have a somewhat tenuous link to the hijacking.


377  (F 666)

Mar 2, 2008, 8:12 AM
Post #275 of 55571 (44001 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

"Consider this:
Page 104 of the TTY report says the plane was at 15,000 feet at 2001. Is that a fact? Do you believe the plane was ever at 15,000 feet? Did the FBI and NW landing zone calculation account for a fall time (drift time) from 15,000 feet? Is the reported altitude accurate?"

I'd say no way on 15K. They were flying unpressurized, thats for sure. If they were at 15K unpressurized I believe the crew would have had to put oxygen masks. There is no indication that they were breathing supplemental O2. Also, it would have been needlessly risky to exceed 10K when you had a hijacker with a "bomb" telling you not to go above that altitude

15K goes in my myth file. I'd give a lot of credence to the crew quote about being in the Portland suburbs when Cooper jumped.


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