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DB Cooper

 

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377  (F 666)

Feb 21, 2008, 12:51 PM
Post #226 of 54586 (38105 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty good fact summary Sluggo. Body never REPORTED found, yes indeed. There may be some local boys who hit the jackpot. If Cooper was a no pull and went into a farm field he would have been found for sure, perhaps even the next day. A body with no chute deployed wouldn't stand out much even if aerial searchers flew over the area. I think if he went into the woods as a no pull, vultures would have found him after a few weeks and that would have caught the attention of someone who was doing some deep thinking. Still, that doesnt explain how the found cash bundles made their way to Tena Bar on the Columbia River does it? Are you omitting the found 727 door placard as a "fact" because it was never confirmed as one missing from NWA 305?


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 21, 2008, 12:52 PM)


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 21, 2008, 1:08 PM
Post #227 of 54586 (38098 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
5. He received two main chutes and two reserve chutes (one of which was unusable).

Small correction:

The description was of two pilot emergency back-type (not main) parachutes, and two chest-type reserves.

"Main parachute" is a term used for the primary parachute in an intentional parachute jump. A parachute system use for an intentional jump would have a main parachute and also a reserve or auxiliary parachute.

Because he did not ask for two mains and two reserves, what he got was four reserves, two of which were usable (the back types). Neither of the chest types was usable as a parachute, one because it was a dummy, the other because there was no way to attach it to a harness.

Mark


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 21, 2008, 1:27 PM
Post #228 of 54586 (38094 views)
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Re: [377] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes.

I think it was found near Toutle (or the Toutle River).

I would love to know:

If the FBI ever IDed it as off of Flt 305, when it was found (before or after the Mt. St. Helens erruption, and exactly where it was found (within reason).

Can anybody help me?

Sluggo_ Monster


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 21, 2008, 1:29 PM
Post #229 of 54586 (38093 views)
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Re: [mark] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks mark,

I'll reflect that change in the final list.

Sluggo_Monster

UPDATE: I have changed it to read:

5. He received two pilot emergency back-type parachutes, and two chest-type reserves.


(This post was edited by Sluggo_Monster on Feb 21, 2008, 1:36 PM)


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 21, 2008, 1:42 PM
Post #230 of 54586 (38090 views)
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The Flt 305 Hijacking (Facts vs. Cooper Myth) [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, with everybody’s help, I think I can build a register of “facts” surrounding the Northwest Flight 305 hijacking and we can separate the hijacking investigation from the “D.B. Cooper “ myth.

Sluggo_Monster


377  (F 666)

Feb 21, 2008, 1:56 PM
Post #231 of 54586 (38080 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] The Flt 305 Hijacking (Facts vs. Cooper Myth) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You know, with everybody’s help, I think I can build a register of “facts” surrounding the Northwest Flight 305 hijacking and we can separate the hijacking investigation from the “D.B. Cooper “ myth.

Sluggo_Monster

Good idea Sluggo. Here are some things that I have concluded are myths. It would help to give a short explanation as to why something is being tagged as myth.

Cooper said he had a wrist altimeter.
(no record located that he actually said this)

NWA 727s had RTTY gear aboard in 1971.
(emails with NWA 727 pilots and examination of 727 avionics history)

USAF SAGE air defense radar center at McChord AFB would have tracked Cooper's exiting body.
(a myth started by yours truly but refuted by emails with a SAGE engineer)

I suggest leaving out things like Cooper was Weber or McCoy because until the case is solved ALL claims that known persons were actually Cooper are speculative.


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 21, 2008, 1:59 PM)


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 21, 2008, 2:08 PM
Post #232 of 54586 (38066 views)
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Re: [377] The Flt 305 Hijacking (Facts vs. Cooper Myth) [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay 377,

Here's the deal:

You start a registry of DB (Dan) Cooper Myths. I'll keep the registry of Flt 305 Hijacking Facts. We'll get someone to keep a registry of DB Cooper Claims (all the pertinent issues surrounding those who have claimed to be or know D.B. Cooper).

Periodically we’ll all three publish updates here to the thread. That way, everyone can specify (by registry/number) what a particular speculation is based on. Maybe that will help us all work together and better understand the conclusions we (individually) arrive at (or what I referred to in an earlier post as “my reality vs. your reality).

Sound reasonable?

Sluggo_Monster


377  (F 666)

Feb 21, 2008, 2:18 PM
Post #233 of 54586 (38060 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] The Flt 305 Hijacking (Facts vs. Cooper Myth) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Okay 377,

Here's the deal:

You start a registry of DB (Dan) Cooper Myths. I'll keep the registry of Flt 305 Hijacking Facts. We'll get someone to keep a registry of DB Cooper Claims (all the pertinent issues surrounding those who have claimed to be or know D.B. Cooper).


Periodically we’ll all three publish updates here to the thread. That way, everyone can specify (by registry/number) what a particular speculation is based on. Maybe that will help us all work together and better understand the conclusions we (individually) arrive at (or what I referred to in an earlier post as “my reality vs. your reality).

Sound reasonable?

Sluggo_Monster

OK, lets give it a try. I hope we dont have huge overlaps between fact and myth lists. Forum particpants, lets have your myths along with a simple explanation of why you conclude that it is myth not fact.

another MYTH:

Cooper's exit did not cause airstair door to slam up towards fuselage and cause cabin pressure "bump" therefore bump reported by crew is not indicative of Cooper exit time.
(in flight sled exit test photos supplied by FBI clearly show immediate door recoil movement sufficient to cause "bump")


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 21, 2008, 2:33 PM)


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 21, 2008, 5:51 PM
Post #234 of 54586 (38016 views)
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Re: [377] The Flt 305 Hijacking (Facts vs. Cooper Myth) [In reply to] Can't Post

  


Two more facts (and their citations):

13. Dr. Leonard Palmer of Portland State University concluded that the dredging operation in 1974 did not put the money onto the beach, because the bills were found above clay deposits put on the banks by the dredge. [AP Release 02-14-1980]

14. Leonard A. Palmer, emeritus associate professor of geology, died 31 December 2001 in Seattle following a 3.5-year bout with pancreatic cancer. [A Tribute to Leonard Palmer, PhD. From http://www.geol.pdx.edu/]

Sluggo_Monster


377  (F 666)

Feb 21, 2008, 7:09 PM
Post #235 of 54586 (37997 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] The Flt 305 Hijacking (Facts vs. Cooper Myth) [In reply to] Can't Post

Myth: Cooper looked for, found, and removed a packing card from at least one of the rigs he was given.
(an oft repeated statment on Cooper blogs but no investigative record can be found that substantiates this claim).






nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 22, 2008, 1:04 AM
Post #238 of 54586 (37952 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

From following the 2 threads I seriously doubt that it could have been Duane for the following reasons:

While I am not familiar with the exact parachute types mentioned I did do all my training on T10 and C9's. They were very heavy and constricting in movement and this was with no baggage. Add the money, briefcase etc and I really think you start to need a fairly fit individual (granted it appears there is no belly mount reserve which helps mobility) It has been stated that Duane had some sort of illness that made doctors think he only had months to live at the time - that doesn't tally - especially as it was a stated potential motive.

Finally having progressed through SL I have never come across a first time free-faller who didn't pull virtually as their feet left the step (maybe even before Blush). At the speeds that are being talked about for exit I guess a quick pull is going to (probably?) result in death or very serious injury.

If the person didn't bounce then I think they had more than a handful of jumps to their name - or were very lucky. My gut feel is that the person was probably some sort of special forces person who had experience with "most" of the elements.


Albert18

Feb 22, 2008, 9:04 AM
Post #239 of 54586 (37907 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

This case makes me think of the movie Apollo 13. In that movie Jim Lovell was worried about the accuracy of some data he had to manually input into the computer so he asked Houston to verify his numbers. He realized those numbers better be right.

Does that same concern for accuracy exist in this case.

For example, that professor's findings about the money location are critical. Did the FBI get a second opinion? My guess is no.

Was the analysis of the money a topnotch job or had the FBI given up on the case by then? The findings on that money have a huge impact on the case.

Skyjack71, you ask why the dropzone and timeline might change? Because of the location of the money!!!!!!!!!!!

Remember how we were always told Cooper jumped into the wilderness and died. They would have had him floating all the way to northern Idaho, if that is what it would have taken to explain why he was never found.

Then the money was found.


377  (F 666)

Feb 22, 2008, 11:01 AM
Post #240 of 54586 (37888 views)
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Re: [Albert18] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

 

For example, that professor's findings about the money location are critical. Did the FBI get a second opinion? My guess is no.
reply]

If we knew what kind of dredge was used it might help us to figure out if the Prof. was right about the money arrving at the site post dredging. If it was a pump type dredge I REALLY doubt if the money stacks could have stayed intact in the process. They are violent machines utilizing big centrifugal pumps. A bucket type dredge is another matter.

The money and the door placard (if positively linked to NWA 305) tell us more about the flight path and Cooper's likely exit point than any other evidence does.


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 22, 2008, 11:02 AM)


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Feb 22, 2008, 1:43 PM
Post #241 of 54586 (37851 views)
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Re: [377] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The money and the door placard (if positively linked to NWA 305) tell us more about the flight path and Cooper's likely exit point than any other evidence does.

Remind me again, do we know for certain when the rear stair door was lowered? Before takeoff or in-flight?


377  (F 666)

Feb 22, 2008, 1:53 PM
Post #242 of 54586 (37845 views)
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Re: [quade] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The money and the door placard (if positively linked to NWA 305) tell us more about the flight path and Cooper's likely exit point than any other evidence does.

Remind me again, do we know for certain when the rear stair door was lowered? Before takeoff or in-flight?

In flight according to all I have read and also according to Ckret of the FBI. Cooper had trouble opening the door which lead to some speculation that he originally intended to jump much earlier, perhaps very soon after takeoff.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Feb 22, 2008, 2:04 PM
Post #243 of 54586 (37839 views)
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Re: [377] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
The money and the door placard (if positively linked to NWA 305) tell us more about the flight path and Cooper's likely exit point than any other evidence does.

Remind me again, do we know for certain when the rear stair door was lowered? Before takeoff or in-flight?

In flight according to all I have read and also according to Ckret of the FBI. Cooper had trouble opening the door which lead to some speculation that he originally intended to jump much earlier, perhaps very soon after takeoff.

Then I personally don't see the location of either the placard or bag of money to be positively and absolutely linked to the exit point at all. Since nobody actually saw Cooper exit, the bag and placard could have departed the aircraft at any time. It's entirely possible the placard blew off when the door was being opened, when the door "rebounded" or just randomly due to wind blowing by it. As for the bag, it's entirely possible that while he was attempting to gear up, he dropped it and it rolled out the back several minutes before he did.


(This post was edited by quade on Feb 22, 2008, 2:09 PM)


377  (F 666)

Feb 22, 2008, 2:59 PM
Post #244 of 54586 (37824 views)
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Re: [quade] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
The money and the door placard (if positively linked to NWA 305) tell us more about the flight path and Cooper's likely exit point than any other evidence does.

Remind me again, do we know for certain when the rear stair door was lowered? Before takeoff or in-flight?

In flight according to all I have read and also according to Ckret of the FBI. Cooper had trouble opening the door which lead to some speculation that he originally intended to jump much earlier, perhaps very soon after takeoff.

Then I personally don't see the location of either the placard or bag of money to be positively and absolutely linked to the exit point at all. Since nobody actually saw Cooper exit, the bag and placard could have departed the aircraft at any time. It's entirely possible the placard blew off when the door was being opened, when the door "rebounded" or just randomly due to wind blowing by it. As for the bag, it's entirely possible that while he was attempting to gear up, he dropped it and it rolled out the back several minutes before he did.

Quade is right, strictly speaking, nothing is proven by these finds. To my mind, the odds say Cooper exited at the time of the pressure bump and that the placard and found money very roughly define a line of flight. I guess turbulence could have bumped the door, but I think the more likely explanation is that Cooper's exit did it, especially after looking at the sled exit test in flight photos. I hadn't really thought about the possibility that the found money was accidently (or intentionally??) dropped prior to Cooper's exit. Another example of how helpful it is to get different viewpoints posted here. Sluggo, what about a pre exit release of a small part of the loot? Your thoughts?








bozo  (D 10154)

Feb 23, 2008, 3:15 AM
Post #248 of 54586 (37767 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

 
You do not know what kind of training Duane had - we do not know all of his background...this man was not your usual person - ask anyone who knew him. He was secretive - and evasive - perhaps we will never know the truth about him - but, I have seen him in action and I know even yrs. later how strong and resilent he was.----------------------------------------------------------


Yes.....a fine example of manhood to be emulated.


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 23, 2008, 3:54 AM
Post #249 of 54586 (37758 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
no place has it be stated that he had MONTH to lives

I have just done a search through the old thread and I can't find the reference, so maybe I mis-remembered. But I thought that i recalled you stating that his illness and belief that he did not have very long to live (I paraphrased to months) as a possible motive.


Orange1  (B 2638)

Feb 23, 2008, 7:49 AM
Post #250 of 54586 (37738 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have just done a search through the old thread and I can't find the reference, so maybe I mis-remembered. But I thought that i recalled you stating that his illness and belief that he did not have very long to live (I paraphrased to months) as a possible motive.

I seem to recall that too, but I'm not searching through that thread!


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