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377  (F 666)

Feb 21, 2008, 12:51 PM
Post #226 of 54431 (36904 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty good fact summary Sluggo. Body never REPORTED found, yes indeed. There may be some local boys who hit the jackpot. If Cooper was a no pull and went into a farm field he would have been found for sure, perhaps even the next day. A body with no chute deployed wouldn't stand out much even if aerial searchers flew over the area. I think if he went into the woods as a no pull, vultures would have found him after a few weeks and that would have caught the attention of someone who was doing some deep thinking. Still, that doesnt explain how the found cash bundles made their way to Tena Bar on the Columbia River does it? Are you omitting the found 727 door placard as a "fact" because it was never confirmed as one missing from NWA 305?


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 21, 2008, 12:52 PM)


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 21, 2008, 1:08 PM
Post #227 of 54431 (36897 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
5. He received two main chutes and two reserve chutes (one of which was unusable).

Small correction:

The description was of two pilot emergency back-type (not main) parachutes, and two chest-type reserves.

"Main parachute" is a term used for the primary parachute in an intentional parachute jump. A parachute system use for an intentional jump would have a main parachute and also a reserve or auxiliary parachute.

Because he did not ask for two mains and two reserves, what he got was four reserves, two of which were usable (the back types). Neither of the chest types was usable as a parachute, one because it was a dummy, the other because there was no way to attach it to a harness.

Mark


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 21, 2008, 1:27 PM
Post #228 of 54431 (36893 views)
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Re: [377] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes.

I think it was found near Toutle (or the Toutle River).

I would love to know:

If the FBI ever IDed it as off of Flt 305, when it was found (before or after the Mt. St. Helens erruption, and exactly where it was found (within reason).

Can anybody help me?

Sluggo_ Monster


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 21, 2008, 1:29 PM
Post #229 of 54431 (36892 views)
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Re: [mark] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks mark,

I'll reflect that change in the final list.

Sluggo_Monster

UPDATE: I have changed it to read:

5. He received two pilot emergency back-type parachutes, and two chest-type reserves.


(This post was edited by Sluggo_Monster on Feb 21, 2008, 1:36 PM)


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 21, 2008, 1:42 PM
Post #230 of 54431 (36889 views)
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The Flt 305 Hijacking (Facts vs. Cooper Myth) [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, with everybody’s help, I think I can build a register of “facts” surrounding the Northwest Flight 305 hijacking and we can separate the hijacking investigation from the “D.B. Cooper “ myth.

Sluggo_Monster


377  (F 666)

Feb 21, 2008, 1:56 PM
Post #231 of 54431 (36879 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] The Flt 305 Hijacking (Facts vs. Cooper Myth) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You know, with everybody’s help, I think I can build a register of “facts” surrounding the Northwest Flight 305 hijacking and we can separate the hijacking investigation from the “D.B. Cooper “ myth.

Sluggo_Monster

Good idea Sluggo. Here are some things that I have concluded are myths. It would help to give a short explanation as to why something is being tagged as myth.

Cooper said he had a wrist altimeter.
(no record located that he actually said this)

NWA 727s had RTTY gear aboard in 1971.
(emails with NWA 727 pilots and examination of 727 avionics history)

USAF SAGE air defense radar center at McChord AFB would have tracked Cooper's exiting body.
(a myth started by yours truly but refuted by emails with a SAGE engineer)

I suggest leaving out things like Cooper was Weber or McCoy because until the case is solved ALL claims that known persons were actually Cooper are speculative.


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 21, 2008, 1:59 PM)


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 21, 2008, 2:08 PM
Post #232 of 54431 (36865 views)
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Re: [377] The Flt 305 Hijacking (Facts vs. Cooper Myth) [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay 377,

Here's the deal:

You start a registry of DB (Dan) Cooper Myths. I'll keep the registry of Flt 305 Hijacking Facts. We'll get someone to keep a registry of DB Cooper Claims (all the pertinent issues surrounding those who have claimed to be or know D.B. Cooper).

Periodically we’ll all three publish updates here to the thread. That way, everyone can specify (by registry/number) what a particular speculation is based on. Maybe that will help us all work together and better understand the conclusions we (individually) arrive at (or what I referred to in an earlier post as “my reality vs. your reality).

Sound reasonable?

Sluggo_Monster


377  (F 666)

Feb 21, 2008, 2:18 PM
Post #233 of 54431 (36859 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] The Flt 305 Hijacking (Facts vs. Cooper Myth) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Okay 377,

Here's the deal:

You start a registry of DB (Dan) Cooper Myths. I'll keep the registry of Flt 305 Hijacking Facts. We'll get someone to keep a registry of DB Cooper Claims (all the pertinent issues surrounding those who have claimed to be or know D.B. Cooper).


Periodically we’ll all three publish updates here to the thread. That way, everyone can specify (by registry/number) what a particular speculation is based on. Maybe that will help us all work together and better understand the conclusions we (individually) arrive at (or what I referred to in an earlier post as “my reality vs. your reality).

Sound reasonable?

Sluggo_Monster

OK, lets give it a try. I hope we dont have huge overlaps between fact and myth lists. Forum particpants, lets have your myths along with a simple explanation of why you conclude that it is myth not fact.

another MYTH:

Cooper's exit did not cause airstair door to slam up towards fuselage and cause cabin pressure "bump" therefore bump reported by crew is not indicative of Cooper exit time.
(in flight sled exit test photos supplied by FBI clearly show immediate door recoil movement sufficient to cause "bump")


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 21, 2008, 2:33 PM)


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 21, 2008, 5:51 PM
Post #234 of 54431 (36815 views)
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Re: [377] The Flt 305 Hijacking (Facts vs. Cooper Myth) [In reply to] Can't Post

  


Two more facts (and their citations):

13. Dr. Leonard Palmer of Portland State University concluded that the dredging operation in 1974 did not put the money onto the beach, because the bills were found above clay deposits put on the banks by the dredge. [AP Release 02-14-1980]

14. Leonard A. Palmer, emeritus associate professor of geology, died 31 December 2001 in Seattle following a 3.5-year bout with pancreatic cancer. [A Tribute to Leonard Palmer, PhD. From http://www.geol.pdx.edu/]

Sluggo_Monster


377  (F 666)

Feb 21, 2008, 7:09 PM
Post #235 of 54431 (36796 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] The Flt 305 Hijacking (Facts vs. Cooper Myth) [In reply to] Can't Post

Myth: Cooper looked for, found, and removed a packing card from at least one of the rigs he was given.
(an oft repeated statment on Cooper blogs but no investigative record can be found that substantiates this claim).


skyjack71

Feb 21, 2008, 11:06 PM
Post #236 of 54431 (36766 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
8. He may have jumped from the plane at 2011 PST (based on “pressure bump”) or as late as 2015 PST. (Note 2011 would be about 5 NM North of the BTG VOR and 2015 would be about 2.5 SW of the BTG VOR. [Based on Flight Tracking Strip (Radar based) supplied by the FBI].

I do not know how the time line keeps changing, but he jumped no earlier than 8:13 - this was from the crew and the test from the sled. The fluctuation in the cabin pressure was believed to be Cooper exiting from the craft. With the test that was done in 1972 releasing a sled - the departure of the weight made the stair spring shut. This movement of the stair spring caused the same fluctuation in cabin pressure. (note - stair spring shut - this does not mean that the aftstairs closed only - from what I have been able to understand about the stairway is that there are two sets of stairs - a lower part goes down below this - is this not what they mean by the stair spring shut.?)

No other test have been done - so how and who changed the data. Under what test and who did the changing. Re-evalutate - but nothing changes the facts.

In reply to:
9. The FBI’s original assumed Drop Zone was re-assessed (in the last 5 years) and has been moved some 39 NM south.

WHO did this re-assessement in the last 5 yrs and what was it based on.The FBI has done no further testing with the aircraft and the Pilot and Co-pilot did not make a mistake on their time of the pressure change...Go talk to the co-pilot - he is the only one left alive - and he is not changing his story.

What may have happened is someone has taken the files and made their own interpretation of these files without so much as a phone call to the individuals involved and not even to the agent of record in 1971.

Information has been released and this information gets changed everytime it passes thru the hands of others - a time line is a time line. The instruments indicated the pressure change and the pilot and co-pilot recorded the time of the pressure change - this does not have anything to do with when someone on the ground recorded it.

The unknown factors can fluctuate - how long Cooper was in freefall before pulling the cord and the speed and direction of the wind. Use that information and where does it put Cooper's landing zone.

I know that you guys are using a 2 minute variance and for speculation that is okay. What I do want to know is WHO did this re-evaluation in the last 5 yrs. Those who were involved do not know anything about this re-evaluation.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Feb 22, 2008, 12:07 AM)


skyjack71

Feb 21, 2008, 11:32 PM
Post #237 of 54431 (36761 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think it was found near Toutle (or the Toutle River).

In a book Duane had taken from the local library he drew a circle with a pencil and just out from that wrote the name Toutle. I had someone look at this and they believe it is Duane's hand writing.

The placard was found near a logging road in an area that is described as being " six flying minutes" from where Cooper was believed to have jumped. This was found in November of 1978. The FBI did verify it came from the N.W. flight. (this information is from the book Norjak).

Something I would love for someone to verify is - Was there a cemetery near where the placard was found? I have a reason for asking this and being curious because Duane pointed in that direction when we were going N. on I-5 and said there was an OLD cementery near Toutle (in 1979).


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Feb 21, 2008, 11:40 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 22, 2008, 1:04 AM
Post #238 of 54431 (36751 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

From following the 2 threads I seriously doubt that it could have been Duane for the following reasons:

While I am not familiar with the exact parachute types mentioned I did do all my training on T10 and C9's. They were very heavy and constricting in movement and this was with no baggage. Add the money, briefcase etc and I really think you start to need a fairly fit individual (granted it appears there is no belly mount reserve which helps mobility) It has been stated that Duane had some sort of illness that made doctors think he only had months to live at the time - that doesn't tally - especially as it was a stated potential motive.

Finally having progressed through SL I have never come across a first time free-faller who didn't pull virtually as their feet left the step (maybe even before Blush). At the speeds that are being talked about for exit I guess a quick pull is going to (probably?) result in death or very serious injury.

If the person didn't bounce then I think they had more than a handful of jumps to their name - or were very lucky. My gut feel is that the person was probably some sort of special forces person who had experience with "most" of the elements.


Albert18

Feb 22, 2008, 9:04 AM
Post #239 of 54431 (36706 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

This case makes me think of the movie Apollo 13. In that movie Jim Lovell was worried about the accuracy of some data he had to manually input into the computer so he asked Houston to verify his numbers. He realized those numbers better be right.

Does that same concern for accuracy exist in this case.

For example, that professor's findings about the money location are critical. Did the FBI get a second opinion? My guess is no.

Was the analysis of the money a topnotch job or had the FBI given up on the case by then? The findings on that money have a huge impact on the case.

Skyjack71, you ask why the dropzone and timeline might change? Because of the location of the money!!!!!!!!!!!

Remember how we were always told Cooper jumped into the wilderness and died. They would have had him floating all the way to northern Idaho, if that is what it would have taken to explain why he was never found.

Then the money was found.


377  (F 666)

Feb 22, 2008, 11:01 AM
Post #240 of 54431 (36687 views)
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Re: [Albert18] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

 

For example, that professor's findings about the money location are critical. Did the FBI get a second opinion? My guess is no.
reply]

If we knew what kind of dredge was used it might help us to figure out if the Prof. was right about the money arrving at the site post dredging. If it was a pump type dredge I REALLY doubt if the money stacks could have stayed intact in the process. They are violent machines utilizing big centrifugal pumps. A bucket type dredge is another matter.

The money and the door placard (if positively linked to NWA 305) tell us more about the flight path and Cooper's likely exit point than any other evidence does.


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 22, 2008, 11:02 AM)


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Feb 22, 2008, 1:43 PM
Post #241 of 54431 (36650 views)
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Re: [377] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The money and the door placard (if positively linked to NWA 305) tell us more about the flight path and Cooper's likely exit point than any other evidence does.

Remind me again, do we know for certain when the rear stair door was lowered? Before takeoff or in-flight?


377  (F 666)

Feb 22, 2008, 1:53 PM
Post #242 of 54431 (36644 views)
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Re: [quade] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The money and the door placard (if positively linked to NWA 305) tell us more about the flight path and Cooper's likely exit point than any other evidence does.

Remind me again, do we know for certain when the rear stair door was lowered? Before takeoff or in-flight?

In flight according to all I have read and also according to Ckret of the FBI. Cooper had trouble opening the door which lead to some speculation that he originally intended to jump much earlier, perhaps very soon after takeoff.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Feb 22, 2008, 2:04 PM
Post #243 of 54431 (36638 views)
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Re: [377] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
The money and the door placard (if positively linked to NWA 305) tell us more about the flight path and Cooper's likely exit point than any other evidence does.

Remind me again, do we know for certain when the rear stair door was lowered? Before takeoff or in-flight?

In flight according to all I have read and also according to Ckret of the FBI. Cooper had trouble opening the door which lead to some speculation that he originally intended to jump much earlier, perhaps very soon after takeoff.

Then I personally don't see the location of either the placard or bag of money to be positively and absolutely linked to the exit point at all. Since nobody actually saw Cooper exit, the bag and placard could have departed the aircraft at any time. It's entirely possible the placard blew off when the door was being opened, when the door "rebounded" or just randomly due to wind blowing by it. As for the bag, it's entirely possible that while he was attempting to gear up, he dropped it and it rolled out the back several minutes before he did.


(This post was edited by quade on Feb 22, 2008, 2:09 PM)


377  (F 666)

Feb 22, 2008, 2:59 PM
Post #244 of 54431 (36623 views)
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Re: [quade] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
The money and the door placard (if positively linked to NWA 305) tell us more about the flight path and Cooper's likely exit point than any other evidence does.

Remind me again, do we know for certain when the rear stair door was lowered? Before takeoff or in-flight?

In flight according to all I have read and also according to Ckret of the FBI. Cooper had trouble opening the door which lead to some speculation that he originally intended to jump much earlier, perhaps very soon after takeoff.

Then I personally don't see the location of either the placard or bag of money to be positively and absolutely linked to the exit point at all. Since nobody actually saw Cooper exit, the bag and placard could have departed the aircraft at any time. It's entirely possible the placard blew off when the door was being opened, when the door "rebounded" or just randomly due to wind blowing by it. As for the bag, it's entirely possible that while he was attempting to gear up, he dropped it and it rolled out the back several minutes before he did.

Quade is right, strictly speaking, nothing is proven by these finds. To my mind, the odds say Cooper exited at the time of the pressure bump and that the placard and found money very roughly define a line of flight. I guess turbulence could have bumped the door, but I think the more likely explanation is that Cooper's exit did it, especially after looking at the sled exit test in flight photos. I hadn't really thought about the possibility that the found money was accidently (or intentionally??) dropped prior to Cooper's exit. Another example of how helpful it is to get different viewpoints posted here. Sluggo, what about a pre exit release of a small part of the loot? Your thoughts?


skyjack71

Feb 23, 2008, 1:30 AM
Post #245 of 54431 (36578 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It has been stated that Duane had some sort of illness that made doctors think he only had months to live at the time - that doesn't tally - especially as it was a stated potential motive.


Obviously no one understands this illness - in those days they knew very little about kidney disease and no place has it be stated that he had MONTH to lives. I would like to know the source of that information.

He was a very strong swimmer and physically fit at that time. Please do not state things like this unless you know the facts.

In reply to:
the person was probably some sort of special forces person who had experience with "most" of the elements.

You do not know what kind of training Duane had - we do not know all of his background...this man was not your usual person - ask anyone who knew him. He was secretive - and evasive - perhaps we will never know the truth about him - but, I have seen him in action and I know even yrs. later how strong and resilent he was.


skyjack71

Feb 23, 2008, 1:54 AM
Post #246 of 54431 (36575 views)
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Re: [Albert18] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Does that same concern for accuracy exist in this case.

For example, that professor's findings about the money location are critical. Did the FBI get a second opinion? My guess is no.

Was the analysis of the money a topnotch job or had the FBI given up on the case by then? The findings on that money have a huge impact on the case.

Skyjack71, you ask why the dropzone and timeline might change? Because of the location of the money!!!!!!!!!!!

BULL! You cannot change facts - the pilot and co-pilot were firm on the time Cooper jumped. The money being found in the Columbia - can be explained in other ways such as the money being deposited there after 1975.

The geologist with his hands demonstrated the distance between the surface and the layer in the sand. In those pictures you will see the very dark layer - that is the layer from 1974.

The dirt his feet are on were from about 71 if the sand deposits per year were consistent from 71-79.

There is absolutely no chance that money got into that river before 1975. This is after the Flood also.

Pictures speak very loudly and these pictures speak volumes. If you are a geologist - and have access to the pictures and this man's research then you have the right to dispute the facts. Until then the geologist findings stand.


skyjack71

Feb 23, 2008, 2:15 AM
Post #247 of 54431 (36571 views)
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Re: [quade] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I personally don't see the location of either the placard or bag of money to be positively and absolutely linked to the exit point at all. Since nobody actually saw Cooper exit, the bag and placard could have departed the aircraft at any time. It's entirely possible the placard blew off when the door was being opened, when the door "rebounded" or just randomly due to wind blowing by it. As for the bag, it's entirely possible that while he was attempting to gear up, he dropped it and it rolled out the back several minutes before he did.

The placard could have flown for miles in the wind and it is very likely that it did come off during the flight with the door down - due to many reasons.

It has never been proven that the money found in the Columbia was in the bag...it was in a protected place and that was not in the water in a bag..the money would not have been in the condition it was in if it had been in the bottom of the Columbia for 9 yrs in a canvas bag.

Use some common sense here folks:

The canvas bag was not a real thick canvas - it did not have the protective coatings on it such as the canvas used for tents. It was 1971 not 2001!


bozo  (D 10154)

Feb 23, 2008, 3:15 AM
Post #248 of 54431 (36566 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

 
You do not know what kind of training Duane had - we do not know all of his background...this man was not your usual person - ask anyone who knew him. He was secretive - and evasive - perhaps we will never know the truth about him - but, I have seen him in action and I know even yrs. later how strong and resilent he was.----------------------------------------------------------


Yes.....a fine example of manhood to be emulated.


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 23, 2008, 3:54 AM
Post #249 of 54431 (36557 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
no place has it be stated that he had MONTH to lives

I have just done a search through the old thread and I can't find the reference, so maybe I mis-remembered. But I thought that i recalled you stating that his illness and belief that he did not have very long to live (I paraphrased to months) as a possible motive.


Orange1  (B 2638)

Feb 23, 2008, 7:49 AM
Post #250 of 54431 (36537 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have just done a search through the old thread and I can't find the reference, so maybe I mis-remembered. But I thought that i recalled you stating that his illness and belief that he did not have very long to live (I paraphrased to months) as a possible motive.

I seem to recall that too, but I'm not searching through that thread!


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