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D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

 

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Guru312  (C 6814)

Feb 2, 2008, 9:16 AM
Post #1651 of 1694 (4211 views)
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     Re: [airtwardo] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:

GREAT!Cool

Now on to the Lindberg kidnapping? Wink

Look at airtwardo's picture folks. It's an artist's rendering of a relative of his who was found hanging in a tree some years after DB jumped.

I can see why he wants to distract us. It's the old "Move along folks, nothing to see here" routine. He wants DZOs to not check those twenty dollar bills he's been spending on jumps for so many years.


Jim_Hooper  (D 4019)

Feb 2, 2008, 9:29 AM
Post #1652 of 1694 (4203 views)
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     Re: [Guru312] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Am I mistaken, or are the vast majority of the posts on this thread written by the same 3 or 4 kooks with little or no skydiving/parachuting experience? What an excrutiatingly boring subject. For those obsessives here, allow me to make a suggestion: get some jumps under your belt, then reenact the jump - NB6, similar aircraft, at night, over the same area. With any luck, you won't be able to find your way back.


SafecrackingPLF

Feb 2, 2008, 10:29 AM
Post #1653 of 1694 (4196 views)
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     Re: [Jim_Hooper] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Thank you.

I think I'll do that.

But before I go, just remember that I attempted to use facts, not conjecture. It was the skydivers who went to conjecture. Therefore, I'd suggest you look at a map, find all the waterways in Clark County, retrace the flight path, re-establish the timeline, and figure out how in the hell money shows up in the condition it did 8 years later. When you do this, you can call me a "kook".

I'm out.


BGill  (D 28834)

Feb 2, 2008, 12:37 PM
Post #1654 of 1694 (4172 views)
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     Re: [Jim_Hooper] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Am I mistaken, or are the vast majority of the posts on this thread written by the same 3 or 4 kooks with little or no skydiving/parachuting experience? What an excrutiatingly boring subject.

I whole-heartedly disagree. I think it is extremely fascinating and I hope these individuals, even without skydiving experience, stay and continue with their research on this case.


Jim_Hooper  (D 4019)

Feb 2, 2008, 12:48 PM
Post #1655 of 1694 (4169 views)
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     Re: [BGill] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

If we're even luckier, they'll all do it together and the next National Enquirer headline will be:

RE-ENACTORS DISAPPEAR - THOUGHT TO HAVE BEEN TAKEN BY DB COOPER DISGUISED AS BIGFOOT

What more could kooks, conjecturors, conspiracy theorists and those-needing-to-get-life hope for?


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 2, 2008, 1:52 PM
Post #1656 of 1694 (4148 views)
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     Re: [BGill] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Oh! Goody! Goody! Goody!

Does this mean I can be CW (Chief Whuffo) and HK (Head Kook) both at the same time?

When you've led a life a dull as mine, with no challenges or stimulation, titles like CW and HK are really meaningful.

Sluggo_Monster CW,HK


BGill  (D 28834)

Feb 2, 2008, 2:07 PM
Post #1657 of 1694 (4138 views)
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     Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Oh! Goody! Goody! Goody!

Does this mean I can be CW (Chief Whuffo) and HK (Head Kook) both at the same time?

When you've led a life a dull as mine, with no challenges or stimulation, titles like CW and HK are really meaningful.

Sluggo_Monster CW,HK

Whatever floats your boat, Sluggo. But since Ckret is the head fed here, he probably has to give confirmation on that for it to be official.

[getting this thread back on track]

So anyone found Cooper yet?

[/back on track]


Jim_Hooper  (D 4019)

Feb 2, 2008, 2:48 PM
Post #1658 of 1694 (4128 views)
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     Re: [BGill] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Are you sure DB Cooper wasn't a Bigfoot in disguise? Or maybe the Tooth Fairy? Unless, of course, he was the one on the grassy knoll. Probably all the above, if the truth ever came out. But - shhhh - don't tell anyone.

Inasmuch as I've not come across a more suitable thread for the intellectually challenged, I'd say this is the perfect spot for you boys and girls.

Pathetic.


(This post was edited by Jim_Hooper on Feb 2, 2008, 2:51 PM)


Scubadivemaster  (D License)

Feb 2, 2008, 3:58 PM
Post #1659 of 1694 (4094 views)
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     Re: [Jim_Hooper] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Stolen from Andrew Kantor:

"Now, when you encounter a crazy screechy monkey, there are many things you should not do, and one of the things not to do is go up to it and jab it repeatedly with a stick. Because all that does is enrage the crazy screechy monkey, who will then hoot and hop and call to all his crazy screechy monkey friends. Then suddenly youve got a whole colony of crazy screechy monkeys hooting and flinging their poo at you, and all you have is a stick. You cant poke them all. They move too quickly, and eventually their poo gets into your eyes. If you try, everyone watching you is going to say look, that person is trying to fight an entire colony of crazy screechy poo-flinging monkeys with a stick. What an asstard. Then theyll laugh and point at you."

Cover your eyes. Wink


377  (F 666)

Feb 2, 2008, 5:26 PM
Post #1660 of 1694 (4064 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Thank you.

I think I'll do that.

But before I go, just remember that I attempted to use facts, not conjecture. It was the skydivers who went to conjecture. Therefore, I'd suggest you look at a map, find all the waterways in Clark County, retrace the flight path, re-establish the timeline, and figure out how in the hell money shows up in the condition it did 8 years later. When you do this, you can call me a "kook".

I'm out.

Don't get chased out SafecrackingPLF. You have contributed a lot to the Cooper analysis. Don't get run off by critics. Roll with it, do an online PLF.


mccurley  (E 663)

Feb 2, 2008, 6:09 PM
Post #1661 of 1694 (4049 views)
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     Re: [377] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

I think Hooper (Cooper?) is writing a book on Cooper (Hooper?) and dosn't want us to spoil the endding!!Wink


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 2, 2008, 6:23 PM
Post #1662 of 1694 (4041 views)
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     Re: [377] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Don't get chased out SafecrackingPLF. You have contributed a lot to the Cooper analysis. Don't get run off by critics. Roll with it, do an online PLF.

Amen.

All that jump numbers means is that someone has been hypoxic more often.

This thread is way interesting. Keep it up.

Cheers,
Mark


grimmie  (D 18890)

Feb 2, 2008, 7:25 PM
Post #1663 of 1694 (4020 views)
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     Re: [mark] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Hooper is just mad Scotland Yard isn't in the loop!Wink


SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Feb 2, 2008, 7:44 PM
Post #1664 of 1694 (4016 views)
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     Re: [Jim_Hooper] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

 
Now, now Hoop.

Play nice!

Wink


Ckret

Feb 2, 2008, 8:24 PM
Post #1665 of 1694 (4000 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveJack] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Safe, if there is one thing I've learned its that the best your going to do is please 50% of people. The rest are going to think your an idiot and tell you in many different ways how they came to that conclusion.

Look at how many views this thread has got and the info that has come from it. Your playing right into Jim's hands and those like him by letting his posts cut into you. Its the internet, people like Jim troll it, spew crap and when it hits and sticks he gets a little thrill of superiority. See it for what it is, and who he is and more importantly who he is not.


skyjack71

Feb 2, 2008, 9:58 PM
Post #1666 of 1694 (3981 views)
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     Re: [377] D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking [In reply to]  

That post sure did give me a distince impression of someone I spoke with on the phone a few yrs bacl. Just read this one post so far - are you guys hitting the bottle tonight?????


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Feb 2, 2008, 11:41 PM)


ryoder  (D 6663)

Feb 2, 2008, 10:33 PM
Post #1667 of 1694 (3967 views)
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     Re: [airtwardo] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Now on to the Lindberg kidnapping? Wink

Oh, damn! I was hoping we could work the Jimmy Hoffa case next.Unsure


1969912

Feb 2, 2008, 10:58 PM
Post #1668 of 1694 (3958 views)
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     Re: [skyjack71] D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking [In reply to]  

Quote:
........are you guys hitting the bottle tonight?????


Skydivers hitting the bottle on a Saturday night? NahhhhCrazyLaugh


(This post was edited by 1969912 on Feb 2, 2008, 11:00 PM)


skyjack71

Feb 2, 2008, 11:26 PM
Post #1669 of 1694 (3956 views)
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     Re: [Jim_Hooper] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
If we're even luckier, they'll all do it together and the next National Enquirer headline will be:

I would much rather it be the National News - titled Mystery Solved. By the way I am too old to learn to jump - and the bones too brittle.

Now, for a little News: Smile

Reviewing old files (1997 - 98) I found information needing to be revisited. I informed 6 people - this information DIS-APPEARED.

Three (3) pages ripped from a spiral note book...I didn't take them out. Fortunately I remember 90% of what was on those pages...

Man named Busick.

The name Linstrom and Linbaum- Mn. and Mt. possible logger Mt. also thought to have knowledge of jumping.

Two individuals with strong connections to Duane Weber - both resided in WA. one - special forces.

Name of person on plane - Michael Cooper (Ckret was there a passenger by this name)?
Residence listed as Missoula, Mt.

The name Lanaman - this from a verbal interview with the ex-wife from the era of the hijacking.

UnimpressedMost Important;
Also from that interview - the fact that Duane or his wife or relative worked for - San Diego Air Craft and Southern AirLines - Seattle/Moreno. She stated that he was using many aliases at that time.

Since this was turned over to the FBI in 1997 and 1998 - I thought it had been investigated. Reviewing the files - decided to make Ckret and 5 individuals aware of these facts in the event they had been over-looked.

I had a lg. distance ph. call with an individual about an hour before I left - it was discussed that I needed to run an errand. I left these items on my kitchen counter. I did not miss them until I went to reference these notes a few days later (the note books were there, but the pages missing) ...I turned the files and house upside down - although I knew it was useless - I would never have torn anything out of that notebook - it was my first records - no computer or email.

Nothing was taken except the notes plus another reference page. I had someone come out to look at the locks - there appears to have been no forced entry.

Shocked Now, I know I have absolutely stepped off into the deep dark abyss of insanity...but that comes as no surprise considering what I have been thru since May 24 of 1996 and re-affirms what you guys must think of me.

SmileObsessed, yes. "I am not crazy" said the Madhatter.

Excuse my underlines and characters, but I felt it necessary with this post. Thank you.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Feb 2, 2008, 11:47 PM)


Jim_Hooper  (D 4019)

Feb 3, 2008, 1:23 AM
Post #1670 of 1694 (3943 views)
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     Re: [skyjack71] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Will someone with more than two brain cells please read the previous post and tell me Skyjack71 has a full complement of marbles? Or any of the other whuffo DB Cooper fundamentalists, for that matter? I'm beginning to understand why Victorians used to slip a farthing or two to the staff at Bedlam for a look inside. This really is cheap entertainment. Cruel perhaps, but very reasonably priced. Haven't had so much fun since the pigs tried to eat my little brother.(For those who don't know what Bedlam was, a quick google will reveal all.)


(This post was edited by Jim_Hooper on Feb 3, 2008, 3:13 AM)


awsee1  (Student)

Feb 3, 2008, 1:47 AM
Post #1671 of 1694 (3941 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
S See it for what it is, and who he is and more importantly who he is not.

Or...who he could be. All the more reason never to be discouraged.

Some people just vent their frustration when they can't stand where something they have no control of is going. Kinda' like pulling the board out from under the checkers if you will. But the question is a very good one.........where is this thread going? Who knows. Surely with all the topics and threads on this site there should be no reason whatsoever to have to rain on this parade in that fashion or at this time.

I remember the words of a less than notable philosopher who made a living taking possession of large objects that weren't his and breaking them up to sell them as them thar' "pieces parts" not only because he knew not only that their sum was worth more than the whole, but that they were also virtually untraceable.
Not a bad way to make a living, it's just a matter of ...getting away with it.

We call that "selling more BookSssss". Wink


Bren


SafecrackingPLF

Feb 3, 2008, 6:16 AM
Post #1672 of 1694 (3909 views)
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     High IQ arguments vs. Low IQ arguments [In reply to]  

Quote:
Roll with it, do an online PLF.
This one made me smile... an online PLF. That's my name for crying out loud, so of course.

The mods had threatened to shut this thread down even while we were making serious progress, and a few DZ people come in here treating this like it was a bigfoot or lochness monster thread only shows the hypocrisy of the site. That's okay... we are going to have to go around this.

This isn't a court case. It never will be a court case, I highly, HIGHLY doubt it will be a court case... Cooper at best would be 81. 70-80% of people who are even aware of this mystery think that he died in 71. The liklihood is that he has died or is close to death as we debate. I think the people who come in here and troll haven't really been following what's going on. They accuse us of not having a life... so then, what does that make them?

Because this is not a court case, but rather an opportunity for us to pool our thinking, I'd request that we obtain information from Ckret before we start poking holes in everything. If all of our information is unreliable, that's certainly something to know... but there was a reason why the FBI had strong beliefs in 72 surrounding the jump, those reasons may or may not be reflected in the case file. I don't know... but before we start pulling theories out of our butts, can we agree to get information from the agent on the case before we start shooting everything down?

A poster who says pages have been torn from a notebook, I cannot speak to that. That's one person in here out of at least 10 regular posters.

As a group, we have done something special, and that is not to be laughed or scoffed at. Let's summarize...

We have discussed the money that was found and have came up with reasonable conclusions. Those conclusions:
1. It was deposited within a year of being found
2. It appears to have been deposited by water and not by hand (though we can probably hammer this out even more)
3. The condition suggests that it had some level of protection for a very long time.
4. The money could not have rested at the bottom of the river and then later on washed up on the beach; this suggests the money was still floating somehow after it had made its journey that far.

The accepted and popular theory has been, and continues to be:
Cooper died upon impact and the ransom made its way through natural means to where it was found in 1980.

Call me whatever you want, but as a group we have not only discussed the findings of the money, but have challenged this accepted theory. If it's true, then great.
Before the money was ever found, the theory had already been established that Cooper died. Once the money was found the FBI enjoyed another 2 weeks before Himmelsbach retired. When that happened, I know the investigation did not "stop" but I will say it effectively did.

We have come further in two months on this forum than the FBI has in the last 27 years!

The accepted theory that Cooper died was based upon what he was wearing, the conditions he jumped, the location he jumped, and the fact that no money was ever found in circulation.

CKret (the actual agent on this case) already debunked the money found in circulation argument as having very little validity. If he died, we have concluded the "where he jumped" as a non sequitur.

I'm not here to argue if Cooper can successfully jump. 70-80% of the people believe he died. That's okay... some DZ regulars think this too.

Me? I don't know, that's one reason I'm here, to find out. I will say the man who packed the very chute used in the crime said himself that "if" Cooper pulled the ripcord, he survived.

Therefore, does it sound like UFO/Big Foot/Yetti logic if the skydiver who packed the chute says something like this?

Did he, or did he not survive?
To answer this, I researched where the money was found. The media over the years has misreported the location so many times that it's not trustworthy. I went into old property records and found the two parcels on the Columbia owned by the Fazio bros. The location of this beach can be found on map 46 in my original post on this topic on page 44 of this thread.

I then looked at every waterway in Clark County to see how many and the location of Columbia tributaries. There are two primary locations, one at the NW corner of Clark Co, and the other in the SE quadrant of Clark Co.

The money was found in between these two points!

This effectively means we can rule out the NW corner tributaries.

When we rule these out, we are left with the SE quadrant.

The SE quadrant argument has some fatal flaws:
1. The timeline must be adjusted from the accepted 8:11pm to the non-accepted 8:15 or possibly 8:16. Ckret did say there was some writing that made it appear this timeline may have been off, but in reality we have not heard enough to justifyably alter the FBI conclusions of 1972.
2. The flight path must be significantly different than what was assumed. So far it appears there might be some leeway, but it's doubtful the flight path will be moved more than a mile. Maybe I'll eat these words.
3. Once you have shown both 1 and 2 as 100% viable, you have effectively changed the landing area and terrain. It's no longer the woods, but pasture and flat lands. In fact, the likely area of discussion happens to have several farms, and these areas have been farms for a very long time as they are today. You must make some assumptions, that he landed in this area dead and that his money washed into a lake and continued to float for years upon years before it finally made its way to the Columbia. No one can ever see his body, even though it is now not in the woods, but rather out in the open in grasslands... and grasslands that enjoy frequent tending by farmers.

Kook or not, those are the 3 issues we were trying to resolve.

Without resolving those three issues, it can 99.99% be concluded that Cooper not only survived, but that he had to survive. Put it this way, he either survived or someone found the dough.
The next question, how does the money get to where it was found, and why... this is much more challenging to answer from someone "finding" the dough than Cooper surviving, but that is certainly something we can discuss.

When the money was found, in the minds of the FBI and without ever evaluating it against facts avaiable, it fit into their theory that Cooper died.

"I think we can only presume at this time that because the money was found clumped together tightly in what we believe was the manner in which it was originally packed lends credence to theory that at least the money did not make it out, and from there I would really leave it to conjecture."
In that same interview on Feb 12, 1980, Himmelsbach proclaimed less than a 50-50 chance of Cooper's survival the night of the jump.

If you accept this theory, then great... you can leave now. If you are unsure and would like to test this theory or if you actually believe he lived, then maybe you can stick around and help determine if it's likely or not.

If you want me to go back a third time and re-evaluate this possibility I need two things:
I need some level of evidence that suggests the timeline of the jump was about 8:15 & possibly 8:16 verses the accepted 8:11.
I also need a better scan of the map that we've posted on here a few times in the last few days... I mostly need the points that would be relevant to the 8:15 time.

Otherwise speculation, conjecture, and toothless arguments about Cooper's demise really mean nothing.

When I said go grab a map and look at all the waterways and evaluate them against the flight path and timeline, I said it because that's what we've done here... all of us. I didn't do it myself, I had help... help from other DZ members with a lot of jump history, help from pilots, and help from navigation experts. Those people are on this thread!

When I said to go do that, you can just as easily go and read the thread, because it's all there. Calling people names only shows your ignorance and your low IQ. I don't mind if you're mentally challenged, but before you go off, you may want to do some homework first.

When you do your homework, you will realize that you have to hold beliefs equivalent to those you poke fun of... big foot, etc... that's about the level of intelectual evaluation you have to come up with to still believe that Cooper died (at this point, given what information we have).

If we can push out the timeline and adjust the flight path, maybe we can conclude differently. Regardless, you will still have to account for Cooper dying on farmlands and money floating in water for up to 7 years without ever sinking.

Sound feasible?

Let's find out.


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Feb 3, 2008, 6:31 AM)


Jim_Hooper  (D 4019)

Feb 3, 2008, 8:57 AM
Post #1673 of 1694 (3873 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] High IQ arguments vs. Low IQ arguments [In reply to]  

In reply to:
This isn't a court case. It never will be a court case, I highly, HIGHLY doubt it will be a court case...]
In reply to:

No, but a commitment hearing is definitely in order.
A poster who says pages have been torn from a notebook, I cannot speak to that. That's one person in here out of at least 10 regular posters.

In reply to:
...the majority of whom wouldn't recognize a parachute harness if it bit 'em on the ass.

As a group, we have done something special,..

In reply to:
Yeah, like overburdening a skydiving site with non-skydiving fantasists.
In reply to:

...and that is not to be laughed or scoffed at.

In reply to:
Of yes it is. In fact, it's downright hilarious. Ah well, another few days and I'll be back in the Middle East, regaling colleagues with tales from the silly persuasion. Thanks for all the joke material. They'll love it.


(This post was edited by Jim_Hooper on Feb 3, 2008, 9:04 AM)


SafecrackingPLF

Feb 3, 2008, 9:12 AM
Post #1674 of 1694 (3868 views)
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     Re: [Jim_Hooper] High IQ arguments vs. Low IQ arguments [In reply to]  

Quote:
the majority of whom wouldn't recognize a parachute harness
This is my final reply to you. Quade had warned the forum not to stoop to your level.

The majority?

Okay, people who are active on this thread, is this assertion correct?
Who cannot recognize a parachute harness if it bit you in the ass????

Quote:
Of yes it is. In fact, it's downright hilarious.
Why I shouldn't really laugh at someone so intellectually challenged as yourself, part of me finds it amusing...
a troll who comes in with half a brain and an oversized mouth who wants to get their rocks off by breaking up the forum.

So be it. You're laughing, but what you don't realize is that we aren't laughing with you...

Yes Virginia, we're laughing at you.
Do what you will, but I recommend you get some chromosomes while you're at it.

I'm awaiting the scan from the agent on the case. I will not make a post until agent Carr provides the scan or until Quade boots any trolls from the thread.


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Feb 3, 2008, 9:15 AM)


Zing  (D 6343)

Feb 3, 2008, 11:38 AM
Post #1675 of 1694 (3834 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] High IQ arguments vs. Low IQ arguments [In reply to]  

I've been bitten on the ass by a couple of parachute harnesses.


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