Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment??

 


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 16, 2008, 1:41 PM
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USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? Can't Post

I just saw on the USPA website that the USPA has scheduled impeachment proceedings Jan Meyer at the upcoming Meeting.

Since we (the general membership) elected her, do we have any say in this matter?

How do we as the general membership start Impeachment Proceedings against CORRUPT officials in the Executive Committee?


Edited to correct spelling of name.


(This post was edited by Thanatos340 on Jan 16, 2008, 3:42 PM)


jtval  (D 26340)

Jan 16, 2008, 1:44 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

WTF? why are they impeaching her?


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 16, 2008, 1:46 PM
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Re: [jtval] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
WTF? why are they impeaching her?

Too SMART! Angelic


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 16, 2008, 1:49 PM
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Re: [jtval] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dont know..

Adgenda just says:

New Business
A. Impeachment proceedings re: Jan Meyer.


But my wild ass guess is that it has to do with her outspoken stance on Skyride and the fact the members of our Executive committee are Firmly in bed with Skyride. But that is just my opinion and may be wrong.


Zing  (D 6343)

Jan 16, 2008, 1:53 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey, according to USPA, its a safe sport, membership is up, everything looks good through their rose-colored glasses ... and they don't like her anymore.
If she gets impeached, I'm giving up my lifetime membership to USPA ... oh wait, those fuckers at USPA already terminated it 30-some years ago.
Oh well. guess the good-ole-boys network is gonna do what it damn well pleases ... again.


Amazon  (D License)

Jan 16, 2008, 2:03 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But my wild ass guess is that it has to do with her outspoken stance on Skyride and the fact the members of our Executive committee are Firmly in bed with Skyride. But that is just my opinion and may be wrong.

That would be the final straw.. and ANY of them that voted in favor of Skydire need to be voted out on the next election. That crap has got to stop.. We the members elect them to represent us... the members . The conflict of interest is highly disturbing to me.
If they are only voting to enrich themselves.. they have got to go.MadMad


(This post was edited by Amazon on Jan 16, 2008, 2:04 PM)


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 16, 2008, 2:09 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But my wild ass guess is that it has to do with her outspoken stance on Skyride and the fact the members of our Executive committee are Firmly in bed with Skyride. But that is just my opinion and may be wrong.

Are you that sure that this is true of all the executive board members? Is that part fact or opinion?


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 16, 2008, 2:10 PM
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Re: [Amazon] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

The USPA Executive committee has us by the short curly`s and they know it.

If you want to skydive, You must belong to their organization. There is no alternative for the vast majority of us.

They will continue to do as they please, a few people will rant about it but in the end.. They can do anything they want and there is nothing we as the membership can do about it. Right?

How else could the executive Committee that is firmly in bed with skyride be the ones that settled the skyride lawsuit (can anyone say "Conflict of Interest") and now impeach the most outspoken member of BOD against skyride.


But.. hey.. Everything is GREAT for the USPA. Just read the press release. right?


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 16, 2008, 2:12 PM
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Re: [labrys] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Are you that sure that this is true of all the executive board members? Is that part fact or opinion?

Opinion. I only know of ONE member for certain that is a Skyride affiliate and supporter.


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 16, 2008, 2:14 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why do you think she has been working so hard on the online voting, so we can have an easier way to get rid of her.......NOT!

I sure hope a BUNCH of membership will see the light now, it's way past time for Glenn Bangs to GO with others!


lauraliscious  (C 35895)

Jan 16, 2008, 2:16 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

There has been a suggestion that those of us who are going to the meeting, are against Skyride, and own the "NO Skyride" t-shirt wear them to the meetings, at least at some point. I'll be bringing mine. Smile


lauraliscious  (C 35895)

Jan 16, 2008, 2:20 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How do we as the general membership start Impeachment Proceedings against CORRUPT officials in the Executive committee?

You are not the 1st person I have heard suggest this. The USPA handbook or rules or something like that are up someplace on their website. I had downloaded it and printed it out for some light reading, but it's at home. I'll try and do some research tonight.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 16, 2008, 2:57 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just saw on the USPA website that the USPA is scheduled impeachment proceedings Jan Meyers at the upcoming Meeting.

Does it have anything to do with how many times her name was mentioned in the lawsuit against the USPA?............


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Jan 16, 2008, 2:59 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

You have got to be kidding right?

ANYONE who votes to impeach Jan Meyer should be black balled from any DZ AND should be voted OFF of their position at the earliest possible point.

This is such bullshit.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 16, 2008, 3:27 PM
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Re: [diverdriver] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably has something to do with the work she's doing for BOD Term Limits and such.

See the "Constitution and By-Laws" and "Nominations and Elections" sections:

http://Nominations and Elections


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 16, 2008, 3:29 PM)


Armour666  (B 30794)

Jan 16, 2008, 3:34 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

the PDF was created On Jan 14th 2008 at 11:51 am
When It was post I don't know but it is a very recent document.

I have never meet her but have seen the information she has compiled about skyride on her site and the many trusted people speaking highly of her says a lot, this disturbs me alot as a member.


darkwing  (D 4164)

Jan 16, 2008, 3:46 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know any details, but it seems no one else does either. I think there is waaay to much jumping the gun here. Just because it is on the agenda, doesn't mean it has a chance.

Also, I want to say again that if you don't like your elected official, vote them out. Heck, impeach them if you want to. As for me, I know that I can contact my regional director and get some real information, rather than rumor mongering.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 16, 2008, 3:51 PM
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Re: [darkwing] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

You might be surprised.


michalm21  (Student)

Jan 16, 2008, 3:51 PM
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Re: [darkwing] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I really wish I could get rid of my membership... I don't want to pay current management a dime.
If I could skydive without one at my home DZ(s) it would be already gone.
And where do I get "NO to Skyride" tshirt?


(This post was edited by michalm21 on Jan 16, 2008, 3:51 PM)


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 16, 2008, 3:58 PM
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Re: [darkwing] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fact: Impeachment Proceedings for Jan are on the BOD Agenda.

Fact: Jan Meyer has been very outspoken about Skyride and their unethical Business practices.

Fact: At least one member of the Executive committee is a Skyride supporter and affiliate.

Fact: The USPA Executive Committee just settled a lawsuit with Skyride.

You draw your conclusions from that, I will draw mine.


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 16, 2008, 4:05 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Fact: Impeachment Proceedings for Jan are on the BOD Agenda.

It does look that way, but I figured I'd wait to hear something official until I made that assumption and discovered later that it might be only that she has proposed changes to the impeachment process and they are to be dicussed.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 16, 2008, 4:14 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the end, a couple of people may not renew their membership out of protest, a few of those may even send a letter/e-mail to USPA explaining why. But nothing will change and since those people won't be able to skydive anymore, their voice won't be heard at the DZ. It won't be enough members to financially impact USPA, so they don't care and would rather have dissenting voices gone anyway. People want to skydive and since USPA hasn't done anything directly to them, they will send in their annual dues and continue to skydive. Making a post here will also do absolutely nothing. Skydivers simply don't care for the most part enough to vote with what counts, money. Therefore nothing will change.

Derek


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 16, 2008, 4:18 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

People don't care enough to vote for a president.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Jan 16, 2008, 4:21 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

USPA had no business engaging in a lawsuit that could not possibly be won and really had no basis in law. How much did settling a lawsuit that should never have been brought to begin with cost the USPA?

I don't like Skyride either, and their ethics makes my skin crawl, but the situation was handled extremely poorly (and apparently expensively) by USPA.

I don't know how much Jan was involved in pushing the lawsuit forward, but if she was the driving force behind it (Big IF... I don't know), then that could be grounds for impeachment.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 16, 2008, 4:27 PM
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Re: [peregrinerose] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

The USPA was the one being sued.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 16, 2008, 4:31 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the end, a couple of people may not renew their membership out of protest, a few of those may even send a letter/e-mail to USPA explaining why. But nothing will change and since those people won't be able to skydive anymore, their voice won't be heard at the DZ. It won't be enough members to financially impact USPA, so they don't care and would rather have dissenting voices gone anyway. People want to skydive and since USPA hasn't done anything directly to them, they will send in their annual dues and continue to skydive. Making a post here will also do absolutely nothing. Skydivers simply don't care for the most part enough to vote with what counts, money. Therefore nothing will change.

Derek

Sadly enough.. I agree with you.

The USPA has us and they know it. We really have no choice. If you want to skydive, You MUST be a member. It sucks but it is a sad fact of life.

Maybe one day.. Just maybe.. People might actually get pissed off enough to get involved. But these are skydivers we are talking about. All they really care about is when is the next call and who bought the beer.Crazy


grimmie  (D 18890)

Jan 16, 2008, 4:31 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe Jan will post here as to what is going on. That would set the record straight, and stop speculation.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 16, 2008, 4:32 PM
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Re: [peregrinerose] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know how much Jan was involved in pushing the lawsuit forward, but if she was the driving force behind it (Big IF... I don't know), then that could be grounds for impeachment.

No, her comments in a public forum was one of the primary reasons a lawsuit was brought against USPA....


kschilk

Jan 16, 2008, 4:32 PM
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Re: [michalm21] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I really wish I could get rid of my membership... I don't want to pay current management a dime.
If I could skydive without one at my home DZ(s) it would be already gone.
And where do I get "NO to Skyride" tshirt?

Buy your membership on Sat. morning and pay by check....jump all weekend......stop payment on the check, Mon. morning. Smile Maybe your bank will give you a bulk rate, on the stop payment charges.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 16, 2008, 4:34 PM
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

My Opinion: The reason a lawsuit was brought was that the USPA tried to stand up and do the right thing.

No matter what was posted, said, done or otherwise... Skyride would have filed that suit.


jtval  (D 26340)

Jan 16, 2008, 4:36 PM
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
People don't care enough to vote for a president.

True but, with only 32,000 (ish)people, one vote has more weight.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 16, 2008, 4:42 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My Opinion: The reason a lawsuit was brought was that the USPA tried to stand up and do the right thing.

No matter what was posted, said, done or otherwise... Skyride would have filed that suit.

I agree with this comment 100%..........BUT

From strictly a business point of view, (no emotions, no skydiver way of thinking) what was said in a public forum from a member of the USPA BOD's was very damaging. Just my opinion, but you see what the final outcome was.....Unsure


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 16, 2008, 4:45 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you read all the details in the case and counted the number of times specific names were mentioned on both sides?

I would contact your RD and ND to see who brought the motion, it had to be brought by 1 member and seconded by another. Once you find this out you can ask for details on why the motion was brought.

Going off with no information is about the most pointless thing that you can do if you want to do anything about this situation.


MikeForsythe

Jan 16, 2008, 6:07 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I see the BOD scheduled the impeachment BEFORE the general membership meeting where they could get input from the members who elected her. Clearly they do not want the information from the general membership because then they could make an informed decision and it is clear by their actions that they do not want to do that.

I have not read the procedure to see if it can be done yet, but it would be funny if the membership turned right around and elected her again.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jan 16, 2008, 6:08 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Fact: Impeachment Proceedings for Jan are on the BOD Agenda.

Fact: Jan Meyer has been very outspoken about Skyride and their unethical Business practices.

Fact: At least one member of the Executive committee is a Skyride supporter and affiliate.

Fact: The USPA Executive Committee just settled a lawsuit with Skyride..

Though it seems like we'll never get the full story, it appears that the termination was badly done from a legal standpoint and they settled once realizing it. (the other scenario is that there was collusion)

If the settlement includes playing nice with Skyride, that includes Jan as a member of the ExCom. It might even prevent her from talking about the details if she resigned.


jtval  (D 26340)

Jan 16, 2008, 6:15 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just saw on the USPA website that the USPA has scheduled impeachment proceedings Jan Meyer at the upcoming Meeting.

Since we (the general membership) elected her, do we have any say in this matter?

How do we as the general membership start Impeachment Proceedings against CORRUPT officials in the Executive Committee?
.

All she'll have to do is sue them, they'll crumble and let her back in.Laugh


Unstable  (D 28930)

Jan 16, 2008, 6:20 PM
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Re: [jtval] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

  Lets get the facts straight on the issue, I'm seeing a lot of speculation and not much good info. I know she was an outspoken member of the board, but if she is being impeached for what we are speculating, I would be up for organizing a petition, especially if they are going to pull this stunt before the General Membership meeting.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jan 16, 2008, 6:26 PM
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Re: [Unstable] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember that impeachment is the process. It's not a done deal, and this would be a good time to contact your USPA representatives.

Wendy W.


jtval  (D 26340)

Jan 16, 2008, 6:29 PM
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Re: [Unstable] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lets get the facts straight on the issue, I'm seeing a lot of speculation and not much good info. I know she was an outspoken member of the board, but if she is being impeached for what we are speculating, I would be up for organizing a petition, especially if they are going to pull this stunt before the General Membership meeting.

I was making a joke. The facts about the lawsuit are out there. I guess you werent replying to me, though.


MikeForsythe

Jan 16, 2008, 6:31 PM
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Re: [wmw999] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just read part of the governance manual. It is interesting to note that one of the reasons for removal from membership is having been convicted of a felony. I wonder if this would apply to any of the BOD?


Unstable  (D 28930)

Jan 16, 2008, 6:31 PM
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Re: [jtval] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

  Yeah Sorry Man, you were the last man on the totem pole so I replied to your post - Crazy


Armour666  (B 30794)

Jan 16, 2008, 6:38 PM
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Re: [darkwing] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know any details, but it seems no one else does either. I think there is waaay to much jumping the gun here. Just because it is on the agenda, doesn't mean it has a chance.

Also, I want to say again that if you don't like your elected official, vote them out. Heck, impeach them if you want to. As for me, I know that I can contact my regional director and get some real information, rather than rumor mongering.

I'd rather be jumping the gun and have people start asking questions and get answers to the question then just wait the 22 days till the BOD meeting and be spoon feed what they want to tell you. It may not have much of a chance but they are still accountable to the membersip in explaining their actions.

Fact: 22 day till the meeting
Fact: It is listed on the agenda
Fact: the agenda was produced only 2 days ago
Fact: there are answers to be asked and answered

It may be jumping the gun and people may make assumptions but of those I hope questions and relative answers are given.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 16, 2008, 6:48 PM
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Re: USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a general question to everybody.
1. How many of you have ever been to any BOD, S&TA, Gen Membership, DZO, or group membership meeting held by the USPA?
2. Have you read the lawsuit that was brought against the USPA by Skyride?
3. Have you ever contacted your RD for any reason?
4. Do you even vote in the USPA elections?

I have been to a couple meetings where the only people that were there were the BOD, whoever was looking for a waiver to something in the SIMS, and Jm/I's who were facing disciplinary actions for violating the rules of the USPA. It is sad how many people will sit here and judge what happens at the USPA meetings but don't bother attending or doing anything about it.

I think Skyride started with a brilliant idea that got out of hand by greed. Trust me, I think they are blood sucking leeches nor do I agree with everything that the USPA is doing. I applaud those who are going to Orlando, but have no respect for those who talk on these forums and don't do anything to change it. If you don't bother to educate yourself on the facts, vote/ speak to your RD about your opinion, or do ANYTHING to change it..than you are just wasting posts here.


squirrel  (D 26924)

Jan 16, 2008, 7:10 PM
Post #44 of 541 (2154 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Skydivers simply don't care

I do. How bout we start another "USPA?" Maybe, USSA...(U.S. Skydivers Association). There have been different scuba associations. We just have to from a non profit org, write up some bylaws, and screen board members for skyride connections. Oh, and fill the cooler with beer. You know, I am just about half serious on this...out with the old, in with the new!


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 16, 2008, 7:12 PM
Post #45 of 541 (2153 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

1. How many of you have ever been to any BOD, S&TA, Gen Membership, DZO, or group membership meeting held by the USPA?

This February will be my first one but I am Going along with several others from the Atlanta area.

2. Have you read the lawsuit that was brought against the USPA by Skyride?

I am the one that posted the Complaint to the Skyride Thread. Yes I have read it. I have read every publicly available document associated with that case. I used my own personal Pacer account to acquire those documents.

3. Have you ever contacted your RD for any reason?

Talk to him most weekends to atleast say hello.

4. Do you even vote in the USPA elections?
Yep.

These things need to be discussed by the General Membership. The general membership has a right to know what their organization is doing. Posting this information and making the general membership aware of what is happening at the USPA is critical if anything is ever going to change.

Depending on the USPA and USPA Officials to tell us what they want us to hear is not the answer.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 16, 2008, 7:17 PM
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Re: [squirrel] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
do. How bout we start another "USPA?" Maybe, USSA...(U.S. Skydivers Association). There have been different scuba associations. We just have to from a non profit org, write up some bylaws, and screen board members for skyride connections. Oh, and fill the cooler with beer. You know, I am just about half serious on this...out with the old, in with the new!

Funny thing is that Skyride already did that.Crazy They called it the National Skydiving association.

The insurance is the key. That is why we are currently locked into the USPA. Without that insurance, You can forget about Jumping at the vast majority of Dropzones in the US. Joining the USPA is the only way to get that insurance.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 16, 2008, 7:31 PM
Post #47 of 541 (2127 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks J.....I know you, and you know me. Like I said I applaud everybody who is doing something, not just talking/ bitching about it. Thank you for taking an active stance on this. Unfortunately, I don't plan on seeing more than 10-15 people who post/ bitch on DZ.com there...


squirrel  (D 26924)

Jan 16, 2008, 7:34 PM
Post #48 of 541 (2120 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
do. How bout we start another "USPA?" Maybe, USSA...(U.S. Skydivers Association). There have been different scuba associations. We just have to from a non profit org, write up some bylaws, and screen board members for skyride connections. Oh, and fill the cooler with beer. You know, I am just about half serious on this...out with the old, in with the new!

Funny thing is that Skyride already did that.Crazy They called it the National Skydiving association.

The insurance is the key. That is why we are currently locked into the USPA. Without that insurance, You can forget about Jumping at the vast majority of Dropzones in the US. Joining the USPA is the only way to get that insurance.

i did not know that. but, that makes sense. it always seems to come down to insurance in so many cases of starting a new business, organization, or group. i know this first hand, being self employed and insured. Unimpressed


MakeItHappen

Jan 16, 2008, 8:03 PM
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Re: [grimmie] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe Jan will post here as to what is going on. That would set the record straight, and stop speculation.

Well, Rich, I learned of this the same way everyone else did - I read it in the the agenda.

I really do not know anything more than anyone else, except that it IS related to the SkyRide issue, as related to me by my RD. That part I definitely know is true.

.


(This post was edited by MakeItHappen on Jan 16, 2008, 8:04 PM)


denete  (B 33880)

Jan 16, 2008, 8:12 PM
Post #50 of 541 (2046 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1. How many of you have ever been to any BOD, S&TA, Gen Membership, DZO, or group membership meeting held by the USPA?

This February will be my first one but I am Going along with several others from the Atlanta area.


This may be a silly question, but have any of you called Glen B. and asked why the impeachment is on the agenda?

- David


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 16, 2008, 8:24 PM
Post #51 of 541 (1906 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Unfortunately, I don't plan on seeing more than 10-15 people who post/ bitch on DZ.com there...

And that is 10 to 15 more than was there the last time. Its a start.


Amazon  (D License)

Jan 16, 2008, 8:33 PM
Post #52 of 541 (1894 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

The more I hear about the USPA BOD over the last couple years.. and now with this kind of stunt.. I do think there is far too much in the way of conflict of interest..

I quit jumping at DZ's that have affiliations with Skyride... OR the ones that take Skyrides business model and pull the same kind of crud on their customers that they learned at the feet of Skyride.

We have members from all walks of life. I know there have to be some insurance people who can steer us in the direction of telling us what we really get for our insurance that we get from USPA.. if anything has ever been paid out and what kind of alternatives there are.

I also think it is time for a new organization where integrity rather than what I am seeing here is the norm.
Personally I have not seen a benefit for the money I am spending on USPA dues.


(This post was edited by Amazon on Jan 16, 2008, 8:40 PM)


denete  (B 33880)

Jan 16, 2008, 8:35 PM
Post #53 of 541 (1892 views)
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Re: [denete] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Scott Smith created the agenda, and he represents all USPA members regardless of locale. I e-mailed him (and Sherry) to ask who had requested that 8-A be put on the agenda, so that I could get more information and provide input to BOD members.


From uspa.org:
Quote:
The actions of each working committee must be approved by the full Board before becoming USPA policy. Each Director has one vote at BOD meetings. Voting responsibility includes not only making business decisions and setting policy, but also the establishment and modification of the Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs) and Recommendations. BOD members cast their votes based on the input they receive from their constituency (the membership) and their own judgment.

- David


MakeItHappen

Jan 16, 2008, 8:41 PM
Post #54 of 541 (1885 views)
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Re: [denete] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This may be a silly question, but have any of you called Glen B. and asked why the impeachment is on the agenda?

You know, I have not called Glenn about this.
I figure, if he wants to impeach me he ought to be the one paying for the phone calls and at least have the balls to tell me WTF he is so upset about.
Besides - he does not answer phone calls from me anyway.

But if any of you get any extra info, please send it my way. 951-658-3526

.


MakeItHappen

Jan 16, 2008, 8:48 PM
Post #55 of 541 (1867 views)
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Re: [denete] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Scott Smith created the agenda, and he represents all USPA members regardless of locale. I e-mailed him (and Sherry) to ask who had requested that 8-A be put on the agenda, so that I could get more information and provide input to BOD members.

Sorry but your post is not correct. Please check again with Scott and Sherry.

.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Jan 16, 2008, 8:55 PM
Post #56 of 541 (1853 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Et All...

So where is the "Imeachment" process defined as it applies to USPA BOD members??

I'd have assumed... yeah... yeah... I know what that means... but I'd have assumed it would be in the USPA By-Laws??

I went looking on www.uspa.org, but couldn't find it... Crazy... but I probably didn't look hard enough.


mark  (D 6108)

Jan 16, 2008, 9:08 PM
Post #57 of 541 (1833 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Et Al...

So where is the "Impeachment" process defined as it applies to USPA BOD members??

I'd have assumed... yeah... yeah... I know what that means... but I'd have assumed it would be in the USPA By-Laws??

I went looking on www.uspa.org, but couldn't find it... Crazy... but I probably didn't look hard enough.

From my 2003 pdf of the USPA Governance Manual, Section 1.1 Constitution and By-Laws, Article III Board of Directors, Section 4 Impeachment: "Any USPA Director may be removed for cause by a two-thirds vote of the members present at any BOD meeting, provided that such action was contained in the proposed agenda for the metting."

I speculate that "members present" means board members, not USPA members present in the gallery.

Mark


(This post was edited by mark on Jan 16, 2008, 9:13 PM)


jtval  (D 26340)

Jan 16, 2008, 9:10 PM
Post #58 of 541 (1827 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just a general question to everybody.
1. How many of you have ever been to any BOD, S&TA, Gen Membership, DZO, or group membership meeting held by the USPA?Can't afford to fly to fla.
2. Have you read the lawsuit that was brought against the USPA by Skyride?I've read pieces of it.
3. Have you ever contacted your RD for any reason?many times by email since I have not been to California in a bunch of years I don't have personal access. HE's never answered my email and I dont know how else to contact him.
4. Do you even vote in the USPA elections?Yes


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 16, 2008, 9:16 PM
Post #59 of 541 (1819 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Funny I see your name,........ Jan you been doing those under age tandems again, your such a boat rocker. Oh and when are you going to change out your gag for duck tape? We can still hear you muttering.WinkTongue


(This post was edited by stratostar on Jan 16, 2008, 9:18 PM)


grimmie  (D 18890)

Jan 16, 2008, 9:18 PM
Post #60 of 541 (1811 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Jan,
So let me get this straight. They are going to try to boot you out, but don't have the common courtesy to speak with you about it in person. No reason given, just go...gutless and classless by the board.
Maybe this will stir up a bit of a hornets nest and get more jumpers involved.
It's time to take USPA in a new direction. And yes, I vote and speak with my RD on MANY issues affecting the membership each time we speak.
What help do you need from us, the USPA membership?


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Jan 16, 2008, 9:42 PM
Post #61 of 541 (1778 views)
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Re: [jtval] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
3. Have you ever contacted your RD for any reason?many times by email since I have not been to California in a bunch of years I don't have personal access. HE's never answered my email and I dont know how else to contact him.

They do have phone numbers: http://uspa.org/contact/bod.htm

ltdiver


jtval  (D 26340)

Jan 16, 2008, 9:46 PM
Post #62 of 541 (1771 views)
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Re: [ltdiver] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I used the info on the parachutist.
I think I may have tried to call him once but I can't be certain. It's too late for the issue I was going to ask about but I will remember to check for phone contacts next time.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 16, 2008, 10:16 PM
Post #63 of 541 (1751 views)
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Re: [squirrel] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I do. How bout we start another "USPA?" Maybe, USSA...(U.S. Skydivers Association).

Might work. I suspect it would get even less support than USPA, which gets very little as it is. I have an image of three guys who meet once every two years, sending out emails saying "here's what we talked about, and please please someone come to the next meeting!"

But if it is to work, it will happen because someone like you just does it. So go for it.


denete  (B 33880)

Jan 16, 2008, 10:26 PM
Post #64 of 541 (1739 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Scott Smith created the agenda, and he represents all USPA members regardless of locale. I e-mailed him (and Sherry) to ask who had requested that 8-A be put on the agenda, so that I could get more information and provide input to BOD members.

Sorry but your post is not correct. Please check again with Scott and Sherry.

.

Sorry, I thought Scott was the "Member-at-Large" of the Executive Committee.

The PDF of the agenda shows Scott as the creator.

My mistakes, I guess. All I asked him for was the name of the person who asked that 8-A be added to the agenda. That was based on the PDF information.

Good luck, I guess we'll know the answers soon enough.

- David


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jan 16, 2008, 10:31 PM
Post #65 of 541 (1733 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just sent an email to my RD asking if she has any information she can share.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 16, 2008, 10:38 PM
Post #66 of 541 (1729 views)
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Re: [grimmie] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
They are going to try to boot you out, but don't have the common courtesy to speak with you about it in person.

This is a typical action from a corporate perspective, and once emotions are removed from the discussion, it is fairly prudent. Do you know it's a "they" vs a "he" or "her?" From what I've read here it seems to be proposed by one.

Quote:
No reason given, just go...gutless and classless by the board.

Perhaps the board hasn't been given a reason either. In other words, it's an item that as part of the by-laws, must be on the published agenda in order to be heard. Apparently one person promoted it from an idea to an action item on the agenda. Somewhere, the reasoning will be made public at some point.

Not defending USPA, I admire Jan tremendously for what she brings to the table and has fought for on a variety of fronts, and I'm probably the least knowledgeable of all the history in this community. she's also helped me in a couple of situations.
But...USPA is not entirely unique from a corporate org chart, and the rules for these meetings are fairly set in stone. It's required to be on the public agenda for this very reason; it allows those that will be voting to look to their resources, invites commentary through appropriate channels, etc.
I've sent my RD an email, I'd recommend anyone interested in the outcome of the agenda do the same.
Phone calls are nice, but emails can be verified, printed, and shared verbatim.


NickDG  (D 8904)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:03 AM
Post #67 of 541 (1692 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Time to organize a Burn Your USPA Card Day . . .

Disgusted!

NickD Unsure
Attachments: ITSTIME.jpg (94.2 KB)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:15 AM
Post #68 of 541 (1688 views)
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Re: [NickDG] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

While I like your sentiment, I think it's time for a "Take Back the USPA" movement.

Let those "in power" know where the power really lies (with the members) and those that refuse to answer to the members that we're watching.

I'm making a list, and I'm checking it twice.....


Elisha  (D 31656)

Jan 17, 2008, 1:03 AM
Post #69 of 541 (1678 views)
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Re: [stratostar] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I figured the new avatar could have something to do with all this controversy.


longtall  (D 7244)

Jan 17, 2008, 2:10 AM
Post #70 of 541 (1671 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Whos the affiliate?............................J...................


jlmiracle  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 4:51 AM
Post #71 of 541 (1617 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You know, I have not called Glenn about this.
I figure, if he wants to impeach me he ought to be the one paying for the phone calls and at least have the balls to tell me WTF he is so upset about.
Besides - he does not answer phone calls from me anyway.

Glenn must still be mad about you having a more current version of the Robert's Rule's of Order book.CrazyLaugh

Good Luck Jan!

Judy


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 17, 2008, 4:53 AM
Post #72 of 541 (1611 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
While I like your sentiment, I think it's time for a "Take Back the USPA" movement.

JP, this is for everyone, but your idea of USPA members taking back our organization from those with special interests is of course the best advice.

USPA Members:
It is time for you to step up to the plate and help your National Director that has worked so incredibly hard for you.

There is only one thing that will work, and that is to contact your Regional Director with your opinion. Anything less and you are simply all talk and no action.

(However, contacting the full BOD will insure that the members of the BOD that support Jan are aware of all of the emails sent to those who do not. A CC: might be in order.)

Use uspabod@skydivehard.com to contact the entire BOD. USPA headquarters turned off the email address fullboard@uspa.org because one or more BOD members asked them to, because they do not want to hear from USPA members.

I have already created a special folder in my email program to store these messages. Please think carefully and compose a good message.

Also, I extend the offer once again for anyone who wants to talk about this issue or other USPA issues may call me at my office, 9-5 central, (800) 435-1975.


(This post was edited by peek on Jan 17, 2008, 5:06 AM)


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 17, 2008, 5:35 AM
Post #73 of 541 (1571 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Unfortunately, I don't plan on seeing more than 10-15 people who post/ bitch on DZ.com there...

And that is 10 to 15 more than was there the last time. Its a start.

And hopefully 15-30 at the next and 30-60 at the one after that.

I think at the next meeting we should put this on the agenda:

New Business:
A. $10 per jump tax for any jump out of a turbine

I bet that would move people to action.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Jan 17, 2008, 5:42 AM
Post #74 of 541 (1565 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I know, it was phrased badly.... I was sleepy when I posted that... but Whoever got USPA into the lawsuit situation (and USPA's actions regarding Skyride were pretty indefensable from an anti-trust stance), really should be accountable for it.

About getting involved... I've never been to a board meeting, I HAVE read as much as possible from the lawsuit (what I can find publically, anyway), I love our new RD because he actually jumps in our region and talks to jumpers, so yes, talk with him frequently, and I have voted in every election since I started jumping 4 years ago.


sraja  (B 31468)

Jan 17, 2008, 5:47 AM
Post #75 of 541 (1557 views)
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Re: [billvon] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How bout we start another "USPA?" Maybe, USSA...(U.S. Skydivers Association).

Might work. I suspect it would get even less support than USPA, which gets very little as it is....

Been tried before - I am told that Roger Nelson disagreed with USPA and started the WSA (World Skydiving Association)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 17, 2008, 5:53 AM
Post #76 of 541 (2540 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

  From the USPA website -

Quote:
In fact, USPA succeeded in dismissing four of the eight claims lodged against it early in the litigation.

Quote:
The lawsuit contained a number of allegations about current and former USPA officials making statements and taking actions unfairly targeting persons and entities affiliated with 1-800-SKYRIDE. These allegations, which formed the basis of the remaining claims, were not likely to be fully resolved without substantial additional delay and cost.

Thoughts? Comments? Anyone? Anyone?


chriswelker  (D 19678)

Jan 17, 2008, 5:59 AM
Post #77 of 541 (2536 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

To continue with Gary's theme I would like to offer just a few suggestions to get the situation under control.

1) If your USPA dues are due don't send them in promptly.

USPA BY-LAWS Section 4: Delinquencies

Notification of failure to pay dues or other indebtedness to USPA, when due, shall be sent to the delinquent member within thirty (30) days following the delinquency. If the said dues or other indebtness shall not have been paid whthin thirty (30) days after mailing of the notice, the membership of said individual or group shall be terminated.

This will get Glenn's and Ed's attention and then we can get RESULTS right now.

2) Stop voting the same people in every year. It really is time for a change.

If you keep doing the same thing you usually get the same results.

3) Demand answers from your RD and ND's now. Take action TODAY like Gary wrote and hold your elected reps. feet to the fire.

I personally think this is just a SMOKE SCREEN to take the focus off of the Executive Committee's BUNGLING of the skyride lawsuit and poor leadership abilities.

I have worked with Jan and the BOD and she really cares about the regular skydiver and especially the new skydivers. Jan knows here stuff and is one of the most intelligent people I have ever known. That being wrote, some members of the current USPA BOD's are threatened by her.

Of all the things the BOD's need to be working on, this impeachment crap is just that, a bunch of CRAP.

It is time to wipe the USPA clean in the next USPA elections.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jan 17, 2008, 6:28 AM
Post #78 of 541 (2497 views)
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Re: [lauraliscious] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The USPA handbook or rules or something like that are up someplace on their website.

It's the Governance Manual and it is available in PDF on this page on the USPA web site. I tried to attach it here, but it exceeds the attachment size for this site.

http://www.uspa.org/...ications/manuals.htm.

Procedures followed are Robert's Rules of Order, which are incorporated in the Governance manual by reference.

I agree with a lot of folks that it is time to bring USPA's leadership back in touch with the membership. That's why I'm hauling my ass from the Pacific Northwest all the way to Orlando - the meeting couldn't be much farther from my home and still be in the lower 48, but I'm making time to be there (fortunately I do have the frequent flyer balance to get there for free). For those of you who aren't able to come down in person, your RD is just an email or a phone call away. If it's not this issue. there's probably something on that agenda that is of interest to you as a USPA member. If your RD isn't on the committee that's discussing the issue, send an email to a board member who is on that committee. Share your opinion.

It's a long year and the election cycle doesn't start for several months, but this meeting can begin some interesting momentum. I'm excited. Smile


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jan 17, 2008, 6:28 AM
Post #79 of 541 (2497 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Jan,

We may not always agree, but I will defend to the death your right to say whatever the bleep you want to!


lauraliscious  (C 35895)

Jan 17, 2008, 6:43 AM
Post #80 of 541 (2480 views)
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Re: [chriswelker] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, I can't believe how much this thread has exploded since I left work yesterday!!! I'm really excited. I definitely think it's time for a "Take Back the USPA" movement!

Someone asked where you get the No Skyride shirts. I'll check with my source and see where we can get some more.

Apparently no official business ever gets accomplished at the General Membership Meeting anyway, because they never have the required "quorum" of 10% of membership present (3000 people). I am looking into this "by proxy" thing. If we can get 300 people to go to this meeting (probably won't happen this year, but maybe next year) and each of those people can get 10 other members to give them their proxy vote, maybe the general membership can actually get something accomplished. Or 150 people, with 20 proxies.

As for the person asking about involvement, I am going to my 1st BOD meeting this year. I have not read the entirety of the lawsuit, but I am familiar with what it says. I also have a question that goes along with that, have you read the USPA governance manual or the GM pledge? I speak to my RD often, and generated an excellent discussion with him at the DZ last month, with a bunch of people in attendance, including several of us who are going to the meeting. I do vote in the elections. Hopefully the electronic voting option gets approved and that way more people will vote and have their voices heard.

I can't believe they discontinued the USPA e-mail that goes to the entire BOD because they didn't want to hear from the members. That is disheartening. I have just started getting involved, but the more I learn the more disturbed I am with the current system. I think the more people that get excited and get involved, and TALK to others at their DZ about these issues is what is needed. Healthy discussion can't do anything but help.

Edited to add: thanks for the links Krisanne. i think I'm gonna order a copy of Robert's Rules. Wink


(This post was edited by lauraliscious on Jan 17, 2008, 7:02 AM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jan 17, 2008, 7:03 AM
Post #81 of 541 (2442 views)
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Re: [lauraliscious] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

There's also a different set of designs that I've seen advertised by one of my MySpace friends... don't know much about this company but they make anti-Skyride shirts so they've got that going for them! Scroll down - the Skyride ones are on the bottom.

http://www.flyingloomembroidery.com/page5.php


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Jan 17, 2008, 7:08 AM)


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 7:03 AM
Post #82 of 541 (2441 views)
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Re: [mark] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Mark.

Yep, same section and verse in the April 2006 version of the same.


SECTION 4: IMPEACHMENT
Any USPA Director may be removed for cause by a
two-thirds vote of the members present at any BOD
meeting, provided that such action was contained in the proposed agenda of the meeting.



Interesting. If nothing else, the word "Impeachment" is being misused somewhat in the USPA GOVERNANCE MANUAL.

While not uncommon, the popular use of "impeach" as a synonym of "throw out" (even if by due process) does not accord with the legal meaning of the word. The accurate usage of the word "impeach" or "impeachment" is when an official is impeached, that is, formally accused of wrongdoing. For example, from recent history, during his term as President of the U.S.A., Bill Clinton was impeached (by the House), but the process ended there as the Senate voted not to proceed with hearings that could have resulted in his removal from office.

Anyway, in this instance. I'd have liked to seen more of what constitutes "for cause". Also what will get it "on the agenda"; other than the inference that it is all up to the whim of Glenn Bangs.

It will be interesting to see how this goes down and what, if anything, is stated in the published minutes as to "why" or will it be just a "vote" and this is the way it went... "she stays / she goes".

Unimpressed


AirWhore  (C License)

Jan 17, 2008, 7:35 AM
Post #83 of 541 (2388 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

So what i want to know is what are the odds of you actually being impeached, and successfully removed from the BOD? I mean Clinton was impeached but was not removed from office right? Jan you must have a pretty good idea of who on the board is with you and who is against you? Are there more than 2/3 of them against you, and if you are removed will we the members be informed of who voted for you, and who voted against you? Seems like a pretty good way for me to decide who I'm going to vote for in the elections. If you voted against Jan I will not vote for you in the elections PERIOD.

In fact i think that is the message i will send my RD/ND's do you think if they got about a 1000 e-mails with just that one sentence they would get the message?????


chaoskitty  (B 26574)

Jan 17, 2008, 8:22 AM
Post #84 of 541 (2327 views)
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Re: [AirWhore] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
and if you are removed will we the members be informed of who voted for you, and who voted against you?

Regardless of the outcome, I'd like to know which way each board member votes.


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 17, 2008, 8:26 AM
Post #85 of 541 (2315 views)
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Re: [peek] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There is only one thing that will work, and that is to contact your Regional Director with your opinion. Anything less and you are simply all talk and no action.

Well Ted, something is strangely afoot here at the circle K, word on the street is my RD Kip Lowmiller was asked to step down, yet as the prop turns, has it that he refused to step down and was going if front of the full BOD in a few weeks and that info is from "some what" trusted sources, (whom I think are being told what they want to hear), but I was asked to not say anything about that in public, so don't tell anyone. So with such wild talk about all that down on spinning prop street, I'm not real inclined to call up my RD and trust anything he or some ND's, have to say on USPA business, based on what is known fact so far and with such wild talk around, it's to hard to know who's word to believe, you have to wait for action to happen to know the real truth.

In fact I have good reason to believe that some players of the powers that be, would like to try to pull a fast one on the membership of the mideastern region and insert a hand picked "puppet player" of their choosing at this up coming meeting, should the chance to do so come up. Depends on who you ask or believe, if you look close you can see bits of egg still on their face, depending on your point of view.

Somtimes it's best to talk with other USPA bod members who are not known to be on the take or have a personal interest in the out come of a regional or national issue, as some BOD members do.

Quote:
USPA headquarters turned off the email address fullboard@uspa.org because one or more BOD members asked them to, because they do not want to hear from USPA members.

Can we see a vote on that, who asked to turn off our voice? I know who I voted for and if any of them want my vote again they will hear the membership.

Quote:
Anything less and you are simply all talk and no action.

You know is pretty bad when you talk to newer BOD members who tell you that they are ready to step down and not even wait till the next election because of the "good old boy" network being so intrenched that it's impossible to make any real change and that in his opinion it is a waste of time, unless your one of the "cool kids" or "Glenn's girls".

Could this be why we see many people all full fire and ready to change the world, get a seat for a term and then by the end of the term their so burnt out on the bullshit they have to wade thru and blow jobs they have to give to get anything done, that their done spinning their wheels with USPA and they don't run again or nor do they want to hold the seat as a write in.

So how do we take back OUR org, when they don't care to hear from our voice and turn off the email, who should stay and who should go? Who should we believe? To me and I think others who have been around for a long time, it's clear to us who holds seats on the USPA because it's some big ego stroke for them and has been for a long time and this is why they keep in the fore front all the time and maintain a full time PR program to remind everyone how great they are for skydiving.

And then we have those who really work for the membership and do the right thing, it's up you, the member, to figuare it out and send in your vote.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 8:39 AM
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Send in your vote! But who are we going to vote for?

One or two people won't create change. A full slate of candidates, each with the same goal, presented to the membership as a new beginning... that could create change...


lauraliscious  (C 35895)

Jan 17, 2008, 9:08 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
and if you are removed will we the members be informed of who voted for you, and who voted against you?

Regardless of the outcome, I'd like to know which way each board member votes.

Does anyone know if BOD members voting records are public information and published anywhere? From previous meeting minutes, they don't say who voted which way on an issue, just that a motion passed or not with the record (ie. Previous meeting minutes adopted, 19-0) or something to that effect.

I have a feeling that the impeachment discussion might go into a closed session, since it apparently involves Skyride and the lawsuit settlement is not public information.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 9:17 AM
Post #88 of 541 (2233 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
and if you are removed will we the members be informed of who voted for you, and who voted against you?

Regardless of the outcome, I'd like to know which way each board member votes.

Me too! Unfortunately if they do impeach Jan, we will probably never know because she is the one of only Board members that will answer those questions when asked and call out those that don't always tell the truth about how they really voted.

I would like to see Glenn Bangs impeached for his mishandling of the skyride issue. A request to add the impeachment of Glenn to the Agenda has been sent to Sherry Butcher, the Secretary of the USPA executive board.

Can't wait to see was we are going to be told as to why Glenn can't/shouldn't/won't be impeached. Oh wait, they don't care what the members want. Unsure

Judy


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jan 17, 2008, 9:27 AM
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Re: [jlmiracle] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would like to see Glenn Bangs impeached for his mishandling of the skyride issue. A request to add the impeachment of Glenn to the Agenda has been sent to Sherry Butcher, the Secretary of the USPA executive board. Unsure

Judy

What evidence is there that Glenn (or anyone else) mishandled the Skyride issue?


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 17, 2008, 9:28 AM
Post #90 of 541 (2206 views)
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Quote:
But who are we going to vote for?

That is for you to figuare out as a member.

Quote:
One or two people won't create change. A full slate of candidates, each with the same goal, presented to the membership as a new beginning... that could create change...

We agree, maybe you'll see more names in the ring this time? Maybe not.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 9:31 AM
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Quote:
What evidence is there that Glenn (or anyone else) mishandled the Skyride issue?

Well, lets see....First we LOST the suit with skyride and if I recall correctly Glenn's visit the Pennridge dz didn't help the situation out any. Glenn is the president of the USPA executive committee. I hold him accountable.


J


(This post was edited by jlmiracle on Jan 17, 2008, 9:33 AM)


Elisha  (D 31656)

Jan 17, 2008, 9:51 AM
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Re: [jlmiracle] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
What evidence is there that Glenn (or anyone else) mishandled the Skyride issue?

Well, lets see....First we LOST the suit with skyride and if I recall correctly Glenn's visit the Pennridge dz didn't help the situation out any. Glenn is the president of the USPA executive committee. I hold him accountable.


J

Settling <> Lost. Settling is closer to surrender.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 17, 2008, 9:53 AM
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Quote:
In fact i think that is the message i will send my RD/ND's do you think if they got about a 1000 e-mails with just that one sentence they would get the message?????

If the USPA faces more litigation because they don't impeach Jan, your 1000 emails won't change their vote.

Quote:
Well, lets see....First we LOST the suit with skyride and if I recall correctly Glenn's visit the Pennridge dz didn't help the situation out any. Glenn is the president of the USPA executive committee. I hold him accountable.

In the lawsuit against USPA you don't see Glenn's name in there as much as somebody elses.... Unsure It's weird that the people who want to hang whoever was responsible for the skyride lawsuit, also are defending Jan.....tough to do both


(This post was edited by divnswoop on Jan 17, 2008, 9:58 AM)


JohnRich  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 9:59 AM
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In reply to:
I think it's time for a "Take Back the USPA" movement...

This is a "devil's advocate" response. Don't shoot the messenger.

I offer this because there's a lot of lynch-mob type talk going on, and nobody seems to be considering what may be the other side of the argument.

Let's say that Jan's public comments were the cause of USPA losing four counts on the Skyride lawsuit, which cost the organization (that's us) a lot of money (that's ours).

So, what's wrong, then, with ousting the person that caused that loss? Wouldn't this be just like any other business getting rid of an executive whose poor performance has caused business problems?

If you were the holder of Enron stock which became worthless because of executive malfeasance, then I'd bet that you would be ready to terminate and hold accountable those executives. So how come everyone here seems to want to do the opposite with Jan, and save the BOD member who caused the financial loss to USPA?

Okay, I'm done being the devil's advocate now. Please don't shoot me. These are not my personal feelings. But I think the question needs to be asked.


Elisha  (D 31656)

Jan 17, 2008, 9:59 AM
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Anyone have an update on the Skydive AZ lawsuit against skyride? I haven't seen any update on that one in a while. Isn't Larry Hill a ND (or RD)? Why no impeachment against him?


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:02 AM
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Re: [JohnRich] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think it's time for a "Take Back the USPA" movement...

This is a "devil's advocate" response. Don't shoot the messenger.

I offer this because there's a lot of lynch-mob type talk going on, and nobody seems to be considering what may be the other side of the argument.

Let's say that Jan's public comments were the cause of USPA losing four counts on the Skyride lawsuit, which cost the organization (that's us) a lot of money (that's ours).

So, what's wrong, then, with ousting the person that caused that loss? Wouldn't this be just like any other business getting rid of an executive whose poor performance has caused business problems?

If you were the holder of Enron stock which became worthless because of executive malfeasance, then I'd bet that you would be ready to terminate and hold accountable those executives. So how come everyone here seems to want to do the opposite with Jan, and save the BOD member who caused the financial loss to USPA?

Okay, I'm done being the devil's advocate now. Please don't shoot me. These are not my personal feelings. But I think the question needs to be asked.

Devils advocate to your devils advocate. How are her public statements any different than anyone elses?


Edit: My "Take Back the USPA" sentiments are not based on this incident, as we don't have any information about this incident. In fact they are based on several YEARS of ineffective representation by several long term members of the board, and extremely suspect behavior by the same members of the board to further their own gains, and protect their network.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Jan 17, 2008, 10:04 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jan 17, 2008, 10:03 AM
Post #97 of 541 (2132 views)
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Re: [jlmiracle] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
What evidence is there that Glenn (or anyone else) mishandled the Skyride issue?

Well, lets see....First we LOST the suit with skyride and if I recall correctly Glenn's visit the Pennridge dz didn't help the situation out any. Glenn is the president of the USPA executive committee. I hold him accountable.


J

What evidence is there that Glenn (or anyone else) mishandled the Skyride issue?
In other words, an absence of facts doesn't make conjecture accurate, does it?
I'd truly like to know. USPA-bashing is popular, but I've yet to see facts that actually merit the very personal accusations made against the BOD. And the same holds true for whatever reason the USPA may have for intitiating impeachment proceedings against Jan or anyone else on the BOD.

If you hold Glenn responsible as president of the executive committee, then you must also hold Jay, B.J., Jan, Sherry, Scott, Lee accountable as well. The president doesn't have absolute authority. By the same token, someone will have to present evidence (not opinion) of wrongdoing on Jan's (or Glenn's) part in order to successfully conclude impeachment proceedings against anyone. It's easy to become emotional in the absence of facts, which is why our system *generally* works pretty well, because it makes an attempt to put emotions aside.
One argument always wins, another loses. Being on one side or another doesn't have to always equate to "mishandling."
I for one, would like facts or more information about why Glenn (or anyone else) feels this is an appropriate course of action. As to why it's on the agenda...well...that's how Robert's Rules function. Anyone in an organized environment understands this.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:10 AM
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I for one, would like facts or more information about why Glenn (or anyone else) feels this is an appropriate course of action.
As to why it's on the agenda...well...that's how Robert's Rules function. Anyone in an organized environment understands this.

In reply to:


You're NOT the only one...Angelic

I for one would like to know WHY the facts concerning the inter workings of OUR organization, are always so difficult to obtain. Crazy


chriswelker  (D 19678)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:12 AM
Post #99 of 541 (2112 views)
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My name was mentioned in the lawsuit more than just once:however, I was misquoted, my words were taken out of context, I was quoted on stuff that was not said or even posted by me.

All of the things that was sited for posting were done when I wan not a USPA RD and all of these things were posted before the lawsuit anyway. When did it not become OK to state the TRUTH in this Country.

I was not even contacted by USPA attorneys (2 differnent firms btw) to answer the alligations. So how was due dilligence preformed? How can anybody take the rap for something when all the questions haven't been answered in this matter?


jlmiracle  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
What evidence is there that Glenn (or anyone else) mishandled the Skyride issue?

because we lost.Unsure

Quote:
If you hold Glenn responsible as president of the executive committee, then you must also hold Jay, B.J., Jan, Sherry, Scott, Lee accountable as well.

okay then, we will hold them all accountable.

Quote:
The president doesn't have absolute authority.

You might want to tell some presidents that. Crazy

Have you ever been to a USPA board meeting?


judy


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:20 AM
Post #101 of 541 (1532 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I think it's time for a "Take Back the USPA" movement...

This is a "devil's advocate" response. Don't shoot the messenger.

I offer this because there's a lot of lynch-mob type talk going on, and nobody seems to be considering what may be the other side of the argument.

Let's say that Jan's public comments were the cause of USPA losing four counts on the Skyride lawsuit, which cost the organization (that's us) a lot of money (that's ours).

So, what's wrong, then, with ousting the person that caused that loss? Wouldn't this be just like any other business getting rid of an executive whose poor performance has caused business problems?

If you were the holder of Enron stock which became worthless because of executive malfeasance, then I'd bet that you would be ready to terminate and hold accountable those executives. So how come everyone here seems to want to do the opposite with Jan, and save the BOD member who caused the financial loss to USPA?

Okay, I'm done being the devil's advocate now. Please don't shoot me. These are not my personal feelings. But I think the question needs to be asked.

Devils advocate to your devils advocate. How are her public statements any different than anyone elses?


Edit: My "Take Back the USPA" sentiments are not based on this incident, as we don't have any information about this incident. In fact they are based on several YEARS of ineffective representation by several long term members of the board, and extremely suspect behavior by the same members of the board to further their own gains, and protect their network.

I agree. My feelings are not tied to just one issue.

On the issue with Jan, I don't want her outed necause she was speaking for me. If they are going to throw people out for their opinion then I need to be right next to Jan.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:30 AM
Post #102 of 541 (1508 views)
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[uninformed conjecture]Is there a chance that the action against Jan is not because of what she has said, but because she is refusing to curtail herself now, endangering the association for more litigation?[/uninformed conjecture]


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 17, 2008, 10:31 AM
Post #103 of 541 (1506 views)
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Re: [jlmiracle] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
What evidence is there that Glenn (or anyone else) mishandled the Skyride issue?

because we lost.Unsure

Quote:
If you hold Glenn responsible as president of the executive committee, then you must also hold Jay, B.J., Jan, Sherry, Scott, Lee accountable as well.

okay then, we will hold them all accountable.
In reply to:
"what do you mean 'we,' white man?Tongue" I dont' hold them accountable. I've been on the losing side of lawsuits, and am educated enough to understand that losing isn't always a loss.

Quote:
The president doesn't have absolute authority.

You might want to tell some presidents that. Crazy
In reply to:
I shouldn't need to. That's *exactly* what the BOD is supposed to do. It's called "democracy."

Have you ever been to a USPA board meeting?
In reply to:
yes, I have. I fail to see how your question relates to Jan's impeachment being an agenda item. FWIW, based on what I've been told and personally experienced, I'm in support of Jan and her actions until presented with contrary information. I don't see the point in being outraged just yet, because so far, all I hear is the sound of one hand clapping. And given that it takes two-thirds of the board to make the action complete...I don't share your opinion that the board is made up of dummies. I happen to think that at least a couple of them are very fine, integrous people, and I have faith that they'll do the right thing based on facts in evidence as presented by both sides of an argument.


judy


MarkM  (C 35089)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:32 AM
Post #104 of 541 (1501 views)
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In reply to:
The USPA has us and they know it. We really have no choice. If you want to skydive, You MUST be a member. It sucks but it is a sad fact of life.

I really disagree with this. There's no law requiring USPA membership to skydive and I've known large DZs to not be USPA members. It didn't hurt their business one bit.

Frankly any group of people could start a new org, get the insurance set up, focus more on current DZ/skydiving needs and start to flip dropzones away from USPA if they really are doing such a crappy job.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:36 AM
Post #105 of 541 (1489 views)
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Re: [MarkM] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Frankly any group of people could start a new org, get the insurance set up, focus more on current DZ/skydiving needs...

In reply to:

No so far fetched?


jlmiracle  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:39 AM
Post #106 of 541 (1479 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[uninformed conjecture]Is there a chance that the action against Jan is not because of what she has said, but because she is refusing to curtail herself now, endangering the association for more litigation?[/uninformed conjecture]

How do we know that Jan isn't a crazy glue sniffer or a crabperson?LaughLaugh

I don't understand how any court in America would allow somewhat anonymous postings on an internet forum as evidence. Look at all the drunk ramblings in bonfire and other forums, how serious can you really take most of what you see on internet forums.

judy


chaoskitty  (B 26574)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:39 AM
Post #107 of 541 (1477 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

But why re-invent the wheel? This is why we have elections.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:41 AM
Post #108 of 541 (1470 views)
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In reply to:
Let's say that Jan's public comments were the cause of USPA losing four counts on the Skyride lawsuit, which cost the organization (that's us) a lot of money (that's ours).

We did not LOOSE the lawsuit. We settled the lawsuit. BIG Difference!!

While the terms that we settled on are unknown, It is known that the BOD and General Membership had absolutely NO SAY in the decision to settle. It is my understanding that decision was made by the Executive Committee.

You Know the same Executive Committee that has members with DIRECT business ties with the plaintiff they are settling with. As in the Plaintiff sends them Business and PAYS them.

In reply to:
So, what's wrong, then, with ousting the person that caused that loss?

Nothing at all.. But I don’t see their names on the agenda for impeachment.

In reply to:
So how come everyone here seems to want to do the opposite with Jan, and save the BOD member who caused the financial loss to USPA?

Jan spoke for MANY of us. Her outspoken stance on Skyride was a vocalization of what a LARGE portion of the general membership felt.

We didn’t Loose, We settled.

Just because a bunch of chicken shit lawyers decided it would be cheaper to settle than it would be to stand up for what is right doesn’t mean that Kicking a Lying, Cheating, Thieving organization such as Skyride (And I will gladly back these accusation up with sworn statements from Skyride victims) out of the USPA was not the right thing to do.

Was it mishandled?? Absolutely!! They got back in didn’t they. But what do you expect when Members of the Executive Committee are in Business with them.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:45 AM
Post #109 of 541 (1463 views)
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In reply to:
But why re-invent the wheel? This is why we have elections.

It's not reinventing...it's updating.

Everyone thought pistons were great, until jets came out.


And hey, this IS the 'Home of the Land & the Free of the Brave'...the don't fix it, get a new one society...maybe a little competition is a GOOD thing?! Wink


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:48 AM
Post #110 of 541 (1453 views)
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In reply to:
I really disagree with this. There's no law requiring USPA membership to skydive and I've known large DZs to not be USPA members. It didn't hurt their business one bit.

Then drop your USPA Membership and see if you find a place that will let you Jump. Good Luck with that.


Elisha  (D 31656)

Jan 17, 2008, 10:53 AM
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Re: [jlmiracle] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't understand how any court in America would allow somewhat anonymous postings on an internet forum as evidence. Look at all the drunk ramblings in bonfire and other forums, how serious can you really take most of what you see on internet forums.

judy

Exactly. How many people on internet fora are there with a screen name of George Bush? Yes, I'm sure most of us dislike him and his decisions, but that doesn't mean we would think using internet posts as credible evidence to sue him.


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Jan 17, 2008, 11:05 AM
Post #112 of 541 (1417 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Whoever got USPA into the lawsuit situation (and USPA's actions regarding Skyride were pretty indefensable from an anti-trust stance), really should be accountable for it.

Jan Meyer may have been the driving force behind the removal of Individual, and Group Memberships, but it is a "Board of Directors" not a Kingdom, were it a Kingdom Glen Bangs would have to be considered the Anointed. If impeachment is how “we're” going to "hold people responsible" everyone who voted to remove the memberships should be facing impeachment. I'd suggest as well that if one is "convicted", all should be convicted. Then I'd suppose (I don't know the bylaws well enough) King Glen I is afforded the privilege of appointing replacements.

Also, as I understand Glen Bangs is the only member of the BOD privileged to the detales of the “Skyride settlement”, and he has chosen not to share this information with the rest of the BOD. My regional director has related to me that there are often items/issues to which he as a member of the BOD is not privileged. Maybe it is a Kingdom?

To my knowledge, Jan’s primary “infraction” is that she’s willing to talk with, and discuss issues with the lowly peasants (aka members), the nerve!!!

I did write my opinions to the BOD, cc to my RD, and cc to a drop zone owners email list. In that letter, I informed that If Ms. Meyer is removed from “OUR” BOD, I will remove my drop zone from the list of USPA Group Members, and make it known that Individual Membership is no longer required at my DZ.

Martin
Air Capital Drop Zone


Amazon  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 11:11 AM
Post #113 of 541 (1398 views)
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Re: [peek] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
USPA headquarters turned off the email address fullboard@uspa.org because one or more BOD members asked them to, because they do not want to hear from USPA members.

See now that right there pisses me off.. They are supposed to be representing THE MEMBERS...and that includes listening to WE THE MEMBERS.


lauraliscious  (C 35895)

Jan 17, 2008, 11:19 AM
Post #114 of 541 (1378 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

J - You stated earlier in this thread that you have posted the link to the Skyride vs. USPA lawsuit in the Skyride thread. As there are MULTIPLE skyride threads and I don't really have the time or inclination to wade through them again, could you please provide a link in this thread to that post??? Pretty please???

I am still trying to learn all I can before I go to the meetings....and I would like to be well-informed rather than jump to conclusions. I like the discussion going on here, the devil's advocate and everything.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 17, 2008, 11:21 AM
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In reply to:
I will remove my drop zone from the list of USPA Group Members, and make it known that Individual Membership is no longer required at my DZ.

Thank you for taking a stand.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 17, 2008, 11:22 AM
Post #116 of 541 (1367 views)
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Re: [Amazon] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
USPA headquarters turned off the email address fullboard@uspa.org because one or more BOD members asked them to, because they do not want to hear from USPA members.

See now that right there pisses me off.. They are supposed to be representing THE MEMBERS...and that includes listening to WE THE MEMBERS.

Same question as asked above. What evidence do you have that the email address was removed for the reason cited above?
If it's true, it's wrong. But is it true? Cite the source.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 17, 2008, 11:25 AM
Post #117 of 541 (1360 views)
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Re: [lauraliscious] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I will gather ALL Publicly available Documents and find a way to post them. It may take a little time but I will get them up soon as possible. Hopefully before this weekend.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 11:27 AM
Post #118 of 541 (1353 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Same question as asked above. What evidence do you have that the email address was removed for the reason cited above?
If it's true, it's wrong. But is it true? Cite the source.

the evidence is gone the uspa shredded the link to e-mail the full board.

If not wanting to hear from the members is not the reason, what is?

Source: Me


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 17, 2008, 11:31 AM
Post #119 of 541 (1346 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just spoke to Trey from Skydive Atlanta. He told me the only reason he renewed his group membership was it is required for the Ga. Tech club to be able to jump there. It seems that the DZOs are as tired of a deaf organization(no offense BillyLaugh) asLaugh we are.


lauraliscious  (C 35895)

Jan 17, 2008, 11:42 AM
Post #120 of 541 (1321 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Same question as asked above. What evidence do you have that the email address was removed for the reason cited above?
If it's true, it's wrong. But is it true? Cite the source.

A BOD member willing to come on here and publicly make this statement is not enough of a trustworthy source??? Why don't I just send an e-mail to the whole board and ask them what the reason was, maybe they'll all give us the same legitimate reason why that e-mail address was removed. Oh, wait, I can't. CrazyUnimpressed

What, in your opinion, would be a source that was trustworthy enough to make a determination if that above statment is true or not? I am inclined to believe it to be true, considering the source. But I am also going to ask my RD about it.


lauraliscious  (C 35895)

Jan 17, 2008, 11:44 AM
Post #121 of 541 (1322 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I will gather ALL Publicly available Documents and find a way to post them. It may take a little time but I will get them up soon as possible. Hopefully before this weekend.

Thank you. I have looked at a lot of them already, I should have been bookmarking them, would have made the job easier.


Unstable  (D 28930)

Jan 17, 2008, 11:46 AM
Post #122 of 541 (1319 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I did write my opinions to the BOD, cc to my RD, and cc to a drop zone owners email list. In that letter, I informed that If Ms. Meyer is removed from “OUR” BOD, I will remove my drop zone from the list of USPA Group Members, and make it known that Individual Membership is no longer required at my DZ.


Well Said, Martin. I know that Jan has been in defense of dropzones like yours for a long time, and I think that her removal would have longer reaching effects than most the people on this forum realize. I'll visit with Jesse this afternoon and see if he'll be willing to write a letter as well, I certainly know that I will.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:02 PM
Post #123 of 541 (1289 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
USPA headquarters turned off the email address fullboard@uspa.org because one or more BOD members asked them to, because they do not want to hear from USPA members.

See now that right there pisses me off.. They are supposed to be representing THE MEMBERS...and that includes listening to WE THE MEMBERS.

Same question as asked above. What evidence do you have that the email address was removed for the reason cited above?
If it's true, it's wrong. But is it true? Cite the source.


Directly quoted from Post#72 in this thread. The Post was created by a currently sitting USPA Regional Director.

Quote:
Use uspabod@skydivehard.com to contact the entire BOD. USPA headquarters turned off the email address fullboard@uspa.org because one or more BOD members asked them to, because they do not want to hear from USPA members.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:12 PM
Post #124 of 541 (1271 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just sent an e-mail to Glen Bangs stating my intent to leave the USPA in Jan is removed from the board. I would suggest that anyone that feels the same to do this.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:14 PM
Post #125 of 541 (1263 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Could you not just e-mail them individually? Perhaps I'm not understanding the mechanics of what getting rid of this e-mail address does? Are their e-mail addresses not public info?

Did they lock the doors, turn out the lights, and curiously peer out the bottom corner of the front window drapes at any passerby?

If you want to get a hold of them, call them. If you want to get ignored, e-mail them. It's how most business works.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:25 PM
Post #126 of 541 (1479 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Could you not just e-mail them individually? Perhaps I'm not understanding the mechanics of what getting rid of this e-mail address does? Are their e-mail addresses not public info?

Did they lock the doors, turn out the lights, and curiously peer out the bottom corner of the front window drapes at any passerby?

If you want to get a hold of them, call them. If you want to get ignored, e-mail them. It's how most business works.

Yes I can and have e-mailed, and or called members of the BOD, but I also believe Mr. Peek about why the e-mail address was disabled and that is disturbing.

Ignoring communication may be how some businesses operate, but I can choose not to do business with them.

However when I pay dues and elect people to represent me, I DEMAND they communicate with me.


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:28 PM
Post #127 of 541 (1477 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure he'll be thrilled to know Jan & her supporters will be gone if he get's her kicked off. You guys aren't "Team Players" and only rock the boat, so good riddens.

I would rather see more stay and use their vote with their voice and make the change that is seems many posters would like to see, but I don't think it will happen.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:33 PM
Post #128 of 541 (1461 views)
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Re: [stratostar] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe you're right. I might need to rethink that. Althought I guess I could still be elected if not a member. I spoke of running before but stepped aside when Mike G stepped up to the plate. I'll have to give it some thought again.


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:35 PM
Post #129 of 541 (1459 views)
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Re: [stratostar] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would rather see more stay and use their vote with their voice and make the change that is seems many posters would like to see, but I don't think it will happen.

In my letter to the BOD, I did say that I'd maintain my Individual Membership so I would retain my voting privilege.

Martin


chutejump  (D 6919)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:37 PM
Post #130 of 541 (1453 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Whoever got USPA into the lawsuit situation (and USPA's actions regarding Skyride were pretty indefensable from an anti-trust stance), really should be accountable for it.

I agree fully! If they voted to support the action they are guilty by association and should stand for the same action!


Jan Meyer may have been the driving force behind the removal of Individual, and Group Memberships, but it is a "Board of Directors" not a Kingdom, were it a Kingdom Glen Bangs would have to be considered the Anointed. If impeachment is how “we're” going to "hold people responsible" everyone who voted to remove the memberships should be facing impeachment. I'd suggest as well that if one is "convicted", all should be convicted. Then I'd suppose (I don't know the bylaws well enough) King Glen I is afforded the privilege of appointing replacements.

If they Impeach her I sure she should arrange counsel on her behalf and file suit against USPA for their actions!

Also, as I understand Glen Bangs is the only member of the BOD privileged to the detales of the “Skyride settlement”, and he has chosen not to share this information with the rest of the BOD. My regional director has related to me that there are often items/issues to which he as a member of the BOD is not privileged. Maybe it is a Kingdom?

This "STINKS" to high heaven! Why shouldn't the membership know? Because if you were informed you would be so pissed at the agreement and amount of your (our) money that was lost from their emotional action that there would soon be new persons running the USPA!

To my knowledge, Jan’s primary “infraction” is that she’s willing to talk with, and discuss issues with the lowly peasants (aka members), the nerve!!!

Last time I checked Freedom of speech was one of the few rights that we still had control of, seems as if USPA is committed to see this one removed also! Don't think so? Than read the ethics mumbo jumbo they have produced!

I did write my opinions to the BOD, cc to my RD, and cc to a drop zone owners email list. In that letter, I informed that If Ms. Meyer is removed from “OUR” BOD, I will remove my drop zone from the list of USPA Group Members, and make it known that Individual Membership is no longer required at my DZ.

I will forward my opinion, to the BOD an have already spoken to my RD, and "I"LL do you one better" As of now I will state that "I WILL NOT" renew my uspa group membership! I have grown sick and tired of incompetent decisions, complacency, lack of support, lack of enforcement, and the rest the the half assed actions of USPA! They say we are "Professionals" it would be much easier to do if we were to find ourselves following "Professional leadership!"

OH! by the way! Now! "You don't need no stinking USPA membership to jump at my place"

Tom Dolphin, SkydiveMRVS


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:38 PM
Post #131 of 541 (1450 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
but I can choose not to do business with them.

And that is NOT the case the USPA. If you want to Skydive, you MUST do business with them. Most of us have no choice in this matter.

Posting here will surly do no good at all.
Going to the meeting will not help because they will dismiss the meeting for general membership. No Quorum will be present.
Emails to the Executive Committee will just be ignored.
Phone calls do not have to be answered.

What could you possibly do?? You were not even a Golden Knight so you could never be one of the real leaders.

You are just one Vote. They don’t care.

Suck it up, Bend over and let them do as they please or quit skydiving. Those are pretty much the choices, Right?

(And for the record, I am referring to the Executive Committee. I think the BOD in general DOES care about Skydivers and tries to do the best they can for the most part.)


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:51 PM
Post #132 of 541 (1417 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Spence,

Mike G can speak for himself as to how he feels about things, I won't try to speak for him, but read between the line of my post up a little. I've talked to Mike & I understand his point of view & I agree, I think he would find it a huge burden removed to have you run to hold the seat or anyone else in the region. I think he would say he would like to see all new people take back the place in one big ousting.

You can only fight the good fight for so long when out numbered.

Martin & Tom

Thanks for putting your money where your mouth is. Maybe we can hold the first burn your membership card boogie @ Tom's place, but let us first storm the castle gate just for shits and grins, be rude not too!


(This post was edited by stratostar on Jan 17, 2008, 1:15 PM)


chutejump  (D 6919)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:55 PM
Post #133 of 541 (1404 views)
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Re: [chutejump] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Just received a few PM's with concern for my decision! "Let me state this!"
I have no political agenda! I support the sport and the jumpers whom support it also! and have a very pointed position with regard to political correctness!

"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

"Nuff said"

Tom, SkydiveMRVS


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 17, 2008, 12:55 PM
Post #134 of 541 (1398 views)
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Re: [lauraliscious] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

[replyWhy don't I just send an e-mail to the whole board and ask them what the reason was, maybe they'll all give us the same legitimate reason why that e-mail address was removed. Oh, wait, I can't. CrazyUnimpressed

What, in your opinion, would be a source that was trustworthy enough to make a determination if that above statment is true or not?
Of course you can email the entire board. I've done it a few times. And gotten decent responses from a few of them, zero responses from others (yeah, I think they're dicks for not responding, and yes, I highly respect those that have).
Is it really so hard to click a few names? CRTL + C and CTRL + V. That's all it takes. Or APPLE +C/Apple +V if you use a Mac. Or create a custom email addy in Outlook. Or copy/paste this page
No. The word of one sitting BOD member isn't enough to convince me that the reason the email was disconnected was because "the board didn't want to hear from their constituents." Logic applies: If you don't accept what Glenn Bangs (or any other disfavored BOD member) then why should *anyone's* individual word be accepted? The whole alleged point of the impeachment action is due at least in part, to what one BOD member said without authorization from the others. Is the word of only one BOD member the word of the BOD, or of an individual?
I'm merely attempting to remain fair based on what appear to be constantly changing rules of engagement. How is it that *this* BOD member's word isn't acceptable but *that* BOD member's word isn't? Either it's all accepted or none of it is, IMO. Can't pick n' choose.
Either way, I'm not willing to go off cocked n' locked based on the very flimsy amount of information currently available.
As on person so eloquently put it in a private mail "I'm too new to know the history behind all of this." Guilty!. I'm also not naive about the politics of large representational organizations and have seen more than one situation explode due to lack of information, and felt like a fool for being on a bandwagon with only 3 wheels. So forgive me for wanting to be open-minded for the time being. I'm funny that way.


(This post was edited by DSE on Jan 17, 2008, 1:00 PM)


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:56 PM
Post #135 of 541 (1395 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What evidence do you have that the email address was removed [because some BOD members did not want to hear from members]?.

The "official" reason was that this email address listed on USPA's web site caused SPAM to be sent to the BOD, (which of course it did because all email addresses listed on web sites cause a certain amount of SPAM).

However, there was an issue (I don't recall which) that was discussed on rec.skydiving at the time that generated a large interest in comments to the BOD, so about 30 members used this email address to contact the BOD.

Those BOD members who appreciate feedback from members simply read them and made mental note of their content. (Not too much to ask, eh?)

At the next BOD meeting when this was being discussed I vividly remember Glenn Bangs referring to the emails he received that were forwarded through this email address as a "SPAM Dump".

I vividly remember it of course because of his coining of that phrase to refer to [messages from USPA members that he did not want to get].

(He was not the only BOD member who did not want to receive emails from members. It was more or less the internet-naive BOD members that were used to a contact-free existence because other methods of contact from members were not as efficient as email.)

So be careful you USPA member "spammers"!


(This post was edited by peek on Jan 17, 2008, 1:06 PM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:56 PM
Post #136 of 541 (1394 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
(And for the record, I am referring to the Executive Committee. I think the BOD in general DOES care about Skydivers and tries to do the best they can for the most part.)

Skydivers elect the board and the board elects the executive committee... change has to start somewhere.


AirWhore  (C License)

Jan 17, 2008, 12:56 PM
Post #137 of 541 (1393 views)
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Re: [stratostar] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe we can hold the first burn your membership card boogie @ Tom's place, !

I'm there even if it's just 1 182

SmileWinkTongueCool


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jan 17, 2008, 1:01 PM
Post #138 of 541 (1383 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe you're right. I might need to rethink that. Althought I guess I could still be elected if not a member. I spoke of running before but stepped aside when Mike G stepped up to the plate. I'll have to give it some thought again.

Actually, you can't, Spence. There's not a lot of qualifications for the Board, but one of them is membership. Kinda makes sense since you are being elected to represent the members of a membership organization. I have no doubt that you could muster up the votes but I also have no doubt that the votes would all be disqualified if you were not a member.

From the Governance manual:

Quote:
3-1.3 CANDIDATE QUALIFICATIONS
A. No USPA member will be considered as a potential
candidate for election to the board:
1. a member of USPA in good standing for not
less than one year immediately prior to the year
of candidacy
2. 18 years of age by June 1 of the year of
candidacy
B. Regional director candidates must reside in the USPA
region for which they seek election.
C. No current employees of USPA are eligible for
consideration as candidates and may not serve on the
board.


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Jan 17, 2008, 1:05 PM)


johndh1  (A License)

Jan 17, 2008, 1:03 PM
Post #139 of 541 (1377 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

As was stated earlier, this lawsuit was not "lost," it was "settled," and by a tiny group of people who I do not trust.
What is admirable in giving up and giving in? That is what the Executive Committee did, not "us."
Some disagree with the removal of that company and those slugs from the organization (by reason of "it's not the business of the organization to regulate business") - I am not one of those people. I do not believe that their removal was an attempt to "regulate business." I believe that the people who voted to take action in the first place did the right thing to uphold the integrity and respectability of the organizaton and its members, both current individual and groups, as well as potential future members.
What right did they have to force themselves into membership into an organization? What proof that their ouster caused them financial harm by attempted monopoly?

The very idea that they were somehow wronged by their removal is ridiculous, and it literally makes me sick to think of how this was handled. Even worse, that same few who I personally believe steered this thing into submission add insult to injury by proposing the impeachment of a well-respected, admired, and undeniably appreciated leader and member of the community (and, please, don't bore me by handing me the "but we don't know who exactly proposed the impeachment yet" line).

THEY (the plaintiffs in the suit) are the ones who have done wrong unapologetically, and THEY should not have the right to be part of this organization.

What I'd be interested in finding out is if Jan's impeachment is somehow part of the super-secret terms of the settlement - whether written or verbal.

I am firmly convinced that if handled properly, USPA would have won this lawsuit. Sure, it would have cost money, but it would have saved integrity. Be that as it may, still, to attempt to make this woman a scapegoat is a vile and dastardly deed. Shame on them. I pray that it backfires immensely.


(This post was edited by johndh1 on Jan 17, 2008, 1:48 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 17, 2008, 1:07 PM
Post #140 of 541 (1364 views)
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Re: [peek] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Gary, my only response to that then, is that I recently ordered "techsupport@vasst.com" to be disconnected, because it had become a serious spam magnet with significant impact on productivity at our business. We did not mail our software owners with the new tech support email, we merely changed it on our website.
Does this mean I didn't want to hear from my customers? Nope, quite the opposite. I wanted to cut the BS. We're a little more tech savvy than most of the BOD, based on what I've observed from them, so I find it difficult to jump to the conclusion that the email addy was discontinued simply because the "BOD didn't want to hear from members." If there were *any* evidence of a BOD member making such a stupid statement, they should be brought up short in public, immediately. All the more reason I'm in favor of BOD meetings being viewable live over the web. All these accusations, but no accountability on either side makes for a mess.
Make everyone accountable for their actions, and responsible for their statements and votes.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 17, 2008, 1:18 PM
Post #141 of 541 (1324 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I DEMAND

See, I don't think that's the best way to go about doing things either... maybe it's just me.

If you are overemotional in your communications to someone about how irrational they are, especially to someone in an elevated position, with an elevated ego, you will lose your argument 100% of the time guaranteed.

I am indifferent and uneducated about the actual position of either party here. I couldn't give two shits about what happens to Jan Meyers, or the USPA.

I can see however that on one side of the argument, people are getting a little overexcited and are not conducting themselves in a professional and effective manner. Perhaps those on the other side of the argument aren't being rational either, but I can't see that.

People need to settle down and look at the situation for what it is. It is a chance for the democracy of the organization that you have had a hand in creating to step up to the plate and test the value of it's own existence. It shall either prevail or it shall fail. But realize that this impeachment hearing is an important part of that democratic process. Someone has an argument to present, and others have an argument to dispute. Let it happen.

If you feel it means something, than by all means get involved, but forwarned that getting involved in politics is gettting in the game. Or should I just say that politics IS a game. Getting all bent out of shape because someone is playing games and decides to make it a little work for you to get involved isn't going to help anything. As a matter of fact it probably puts you a step backward (you swung and wiffed at their curveball). People don't appreciate being DEMANDED of anything (strike two).

Just do the extra work.. collect the e-mail addresses and put them in a group in your address book. If once side shall argue their point better than the other side, they will win. If they don't, well then... you know what, you elected these people, YOU screwed up when you did that. (By you, I mean the people that cared enough to vote, because if you didn't care enough to vote, it's laughable to think that you deserve your voice to be heard).

If you don't play a better game than them, you will lose. If you let you're emotions get the best of you, you will be off your game.

That DZO guy with the mustache a few posts ago that is going to get rid of his DZ membership... well he's sitting on third base.. hit him home. Good luck in your battle.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 17, 2008, 1:20 PM
Post #142 of 541 (1312 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see how it would be frustrating to receive 30 emails a day from people complaining about stuff they know little about and 2-3 from people with educated concerns/ issues.

But they did sign up for that and that is why they get paid the big bucks!


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 17, 2008, 1:24 PM
Post #143 of 541 (1301 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

As I said above I may need to rethink that.Smile


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 17, 2008, 1:24 PM
Post #144 of 541 (1296 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
2-3 from people with educated concerns/ issues

I think you overestimate this number by at least 2-3!!Tongue


JohnRich  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 1:29 PM
Post #145 of 541 (1277 views)
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Re: USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Could you not just e-mail them individually? Perhaps I'm not understanding the mechanics of what getting rid of this e-mail address does? Are their e-mail addresses not public info?

Their e-mail addresses are listed in the first few pages of every single issue of "Parachutist" magazine.

Just because some group e-mail address disappeared, doesn't mean that you can't still send them mail to their individual addresses.

If you feel strongly enough to voice your opinion to each and every national board member, then you shouldn't mind typing in seven different e-mail addresses.

Here, I'll do it for you:

ggbangs@aol.com (Glenn Bangs)
sbutchermed@earthlink.net (Sherry Butcher)
johnjds@att.net (John DeSantis)
larry@skydiveaz.com (Larry Hill)
aerosoftware@makeithappen.com (Jan Meyer)
mikemullins@skydivekingair.com (Mike Mullins)
mostjumps@aol.com (Jay Stokes)
bsp@cyberport.net (B.J. Worth)


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 17, 2008, 1:33 PM
Post #146 of 541 (1266 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can see how it would be frustrating to receive 30 emails a day ....

No, no, no, no......
That was 30 emails related to a specific issue.
Probably spread over 2-3 days.

And yes, an elected official is responsible for communication with their constituency. Email makes it easy.


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 17, 2008, 1:34 PM
Post #147 of 541 (1265 views)
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Re: [chutejump] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."


Well yea, it's knowing what the clean end is, thats the trick....Wink I think I have a new sig line.


Amazon  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 1:39 PM
Post #148 of 541 (1249 views)
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Re: [stratostar] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

OH...... so that is what the USPA did with Skyride.... or at least thru their delusions THINK that is what they did.


meekerseeker  (D 17516)

Jan 17, 2008, 1:39 PM
Post #149 of 541 (1249 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well said Martin & I echo your sentiment! I currently require USPA individual membership as we are at a municipal airport, but I will immediately work with our City to explore other options if the BOD removes Jan. I will follow your lead & remove my DZ as a group member also.

We don't need to get rid of her; we need more board members like her, with her knowledge & vision, willingness to listen and take a stand, regardless of whether or not you agree with her take on a given issue! Losing her would be a HUGE loss to the organization and the sport.

(side note: Just so you understand how vehement I am about this issue, this is only my second post ever on this forum.)

:Jen Sharp, DZO
Skydive Kansas


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 17, 2008, 1:41 PM
Post #150 of 541 (1240 views)
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Re: [stratostar] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking the same thing.Laugh


lauraliscious  (C 35895)

Jan 17, 2008, 2:04 PM
Post #151 of 541 (2184 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnRich and DSE...of course I realize I can e-mail the whole board by their individual e-mail addresses. I was being ironic to make a point. I probably will e-mail them at some point. The removal of that group address just makes the process slightly more difficult. An e-mail address being done away with on it's own really is not that big of a deal. But it could be indicative of larger issues, and that is a cause of concern to me.

Right now I'm still trying to get enough information to figure out exactly what the issues are, and to figure out exactly what I would like to ask my representatives about. And I do trust my RD, so I'm going to talk to him first. This is about gathering information in order to make informed decisions for me. Who and what to believe has to be an individual decision, based on levels of trust and information gathered, whatever the source.


chutejump  (D 6919)

Jan 17, 2008, 2:09 PM
Post #152 of 541 (2180 views)
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Re: [stratostar] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."


Well yea, it's knowing what the clean end is, thats the trick....Wink I think I have a new sig line.

I appreciate that you find my view of political correctness entertaining!
I, like Martin plan to keep my individual membership so I can vote! on the completely new BOD we need next year!
I plan to throw all of my support behind Alfred E. Newman as he has been my signing representative to uspa for GM renewal for many years! (He is a very ethical individual!) They didn't fool him than! and sure can't now!

Tom, SkydiveMRVS


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 17, 2008, 2:15 PM
Post #153 of 541 (2166 views)
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Re: [chutejump] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I appreciate that you find my view of political correctness entertaining!

Well spoken, not entertaining.Wink


chutejump  (D 6919)

Jan 17, 2008, 2:23 PM
Post #154 of 541 (2150 views)
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Re: [stratostar] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Stratostar - "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." Tom Dolphin 08


And remember the clean end is "Always" the other end!

Tom, SkydiveMRVS


kschilk

Jan 17, 2008, 4:00 PM
Post #155 of 541 (2066 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Let's say that Jan's public comments were the cause of USPA losing four counts on the Skyride lawsuit, which cost the organization (that's us) a lot of money (that's ours).

So, what's wrong, then, with ousting the person that caused that loss? Wouldn't this be just like any other business getting rid of an executive whose poor performance has caused business problems?

Was the impeachment a condition of the lawsuit "settlement"....maybe, unofficially?


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 17, 2008, 4:08 PM
Post #156 of 541 (2060 views)
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Re: [lauraliscious] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a story.. Pure fiction..

Lets say there an organization.. This organizations purpose is supposed to be to represent the interests of their members. This organization elects officials to represent their interests.. Those elected officials include both National Officials and Regional Officials.

Those officials elect a super group of Executive Officials. Now once these Executive Officials get into power.. They find they like POWER!! They finally get to the point that they don’t even want to talk to the Regional Officials and National Officials much less the Members of the organization. But that is OK because the members are notoriously apathetic to what the organization does.

Then after several years of a portion of the organization complaining about one member, they finally cant ignore it any longer and are forced into actually **Gasp** Doing something!!Shocked

But see.. The executive Group really Likes these guys that the membership and Regional and National officials want thrown out. In fact at least one or more of the Executive Group is a business partner with these guys that everyone else wants thrown out. Others are just Buddy, Buddy with them.

So what could they Do?? Hey.. as the all powerful executive committee.. They would be the only ones privy to any legal proceedings. They could keep the Regional and National Directors completely in the dark about what was going on and tell them anything they wanted.

OK.. Let the group throw them out and then when the Bad guys files a Law suit, The all powerful executive committee will be the only ones that really knows what is happening with it. Oh.. And then there is this one national official that is really a problem. She actually cares about the "Members". Something will have to done about that too!!

Now all they have to do is let things go for a while and then convince everyone that the "Insurance Company" will not cover them if it goes to trial because that rabble-rouser National Director said some things. So then they get to settle the lawsuit, Pay off their Buddies (And maybe even get a little Bonus back from their business partners for letting them back in) and nobody will know because no one can discuss the case.

Then the super mega bonus.. They can then Setup the person they hate most to take the fall for the whole thing. Impeach them; Kick that trouble maker out of office for questioning their authority (Of course saying that it was because that rabble rousers actions caused them to have to settle the lawsuit).
And the double mega super extra Bonus is that the vocal minority that still feels the organization should be representing the members will get pissed off and quit too!!

Absolutely Beautiful!! and then Golden ones can go back to doing whatever they want without ever having to listen to those pathetic "Members". (Of course when they are not out cashing checks (remember.. They are Business partners with the guys that everyone wanted kicked out) from their Buddies that the Members wanted kicked out to begin with.)

What a Beautiful Plan. I am sure glad that none of this is true. Sure would make a good Book or made for TV movie though. With the Hollywood writers on strike, Think I might could sell the idea to a studio?


jlmiracle  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 4:28 PM
Post #157 of 541 (2029 views)
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Re: [kschilk] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Was the impeachment a condition of the lawsuit "settlement"....maybe, unofficially?

Could they even legally do that since she is an elected by us, the members, without disclosing the terms of the settlement? When they impeached Clinton, we all knew why.

I don't know, just curious.

judy

Who runs Bardertown?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 17, 2008, 5:59 PM
Post #158 of 541 (1941 views)
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Re: [jlmiracle] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Was the impeachment a condition of the lawsuit "settlement"....maybe, unofficially?

Could they even legally do that since she is an elected by us, the members, without disclosing the terms of the settlement? When they impeached Clinton, we all knew why.
?
No, they could not make impeachment part of a settlement. Not legally, not ethically, not otherwise. No one can guarantee a majority vote in favor of impeachment. Which is why, IMO, the tone of this thread might serve everyone if the emotional BS went away and discussion of how to best respond as a community. Threats and name-calling generally aren't heard as well as a coalition of similar voices with a rational position. Thanatos has a pretty good grip on it, I'd like to hear his suggestions.


3331  (D 3331)

Jan 17, 2008, 6:09 PM
Post #159 of 541 (1922 views)
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Re: [all] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the history of USPA one member of the BOD has been dismissed after impeachment proceedings, he was Lyle Cameron in 1972, the hard feelings were deep and had been festering a long time.

Since then any talk of impeaching a BOD member has been nothing more then popcorn farts.


Armour666  (B 30794)

Jan 17, 2008, 6:10 PM
Post #160 of 541 (1919 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

The only problem with your story is that there are to many people that like to be spoon feed and will take what you wrote as just that a story. They will believe what ever they are told from the central powers to be.

As other have spoken there has to be more action. I'm not able to be at the meeting but in my short time of being around this sport there are people I all ready know and met that hold the same views that I would entrust to take my vote and do something productive with. I will give them my proxy so that even though I can’t be there I will still have a say.

This online voting that Jan is working on must strike fear in some of the BOD as it would allow even more people a means of voicing their opinion of what they think of them.

The other issue is some people don’t feel comfortable in confrontation or speaking out that’s ok to if they know there are others who will carrier their wishes for them.

It’s all ready evident that no matter what opinion you have in this sport your going to piss off people and I’d rather piss people of with sticking with my ethics and what I fell is the right thing to do then just being silent.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 17, 2008, 6:25 PM
Post #161 of 541 (1900 views)
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Re: [jlmiracle] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't understand how any court in America would allow somewhat anonymous postings on an internet forum as evidence. Look at all the drunk ramblings in bonfire and other forums, how serious can you really take most of what you see on internet forums.

Actually there is plenty of case law stating exactly the opposite. Statements on the internet are real and carry real consequences civilly and criminally.


mnskydiver688  (D 30125)

Jan 17, 2008, 6:37 PM
Post #162 of 541 (1878 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Better watch what you text message too. Those have been used in court cases as well.


bill6870  (D 23527)

Jan 17, 2008, 7:03 PM
Post #163 of 541 (1853 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just saw on the USPA website that the USPA has scheduled impeachment proceedings Jan Meyer at the upcoming Meeting.

Since we (the general membership) elected her, do we have any say in this matter?

How do we as the general membership start Impeachment Proceedings against CORRUPT officials in the Executive Committee?


Edited to correct spelling of name.

I was very disappointed to see the impeachment proceeding of Jan Meyer on the agenda. Jan Meyer has given so very much to this sport that we love and continues to be an asset to all skydivers. We need more people like Jan on the board. Jan Meyer was elected by the membership and if there are issues they should be made public to the membership and let the people that voted for or against her to make the decision whether to remove her from the board or not.



When voting in elections I prefer to vote FOR the candidate that I like but if Jan is removed from the board you can be sure that I will vote AGAINST the people that voted to remove her. I’m quite sure many other skydivers feel the same way. USPA is supposed to be an organization by, for, and about skydivers, why is it then that the individual skydiver is kept in the dark on so many issues? I find it appalling that not even the BOD can get access to the settlement of the 1-800 Skyride lawsuit, I’m not sure what the reasoning behind that decision is but to the individual skydiver it appears to be an attempt to protect the guilty.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 17, 2008, 7:44 PM
Post #164 of 541 (1808 views)
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Re: USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Kind of ironic that the "good ol' boy network" is working on BOTH sides.

Side 1:
We do what we want and screw the people who don't like what we are doing and have no power against us.

Side 2:
We will stick by our friend no matter what they cost the organization, the members, or any settlements.


Both sides are at fault.Shocked

e.d.u.c....nevermind


(This post was edited by divnswoop on Jan 17, 2008, 7:50 PM)


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 17, 2008, 8:03 PM
Post #165 of 541 (1776 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

off topic.....


I had a friend who every thursday went to a homeless shelter and fed the poor. He also took two foster kids in who were beaten and abused. Then he raised money for the elderly to put them in proper care....

A year later he was convicted of robbing a bank and shot a teller in the process..

Good guy or bad guy? discuss..


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 17, 2008, 8:09 PM
Post #166 of 541 (1761 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We will stick by our friend no matter what they cost the organization, the members, or any settlements.

I take issue with that statement. I know I have never met Jan. There is no way I could consider her a friend other than I have read what she has written, I seen what she has done for the USPA and agree with most of what I have read.

The idea that Jan caused the USPA to have to settle with Skyride is what the Executive Committee has implied. That brings up a lot of questions..

1) Are they telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the Truth?

2) Did the USPA act on sound legal advise?

3) Since the Executive Committee is the ONLY ones that know the details of the settlement and the reasons that settlement was made, How are we supposed to just take their word for it?

4) Does anyone on the Executive Committee have a personal vendetta against Jan? Are they just using her as a scapegoat for their own bungling of this issue?

5) Does the fact that members of the Executive Committee are supporters and business associates of Skyride not raise questions for anyone else?

6) Specifically, What was it she did that caused us to have to settle?

It is easy to sit back and take the Executive Committee at their word that Jan was why we had to settle but just saying that doesn’t make it true. (doesn’t mean it is not either but as usual the Executive Committee doesn’t bother to tell us (the general Membership) anything. Just keep us in the dark and feed us shit. At least I feel Confident that Jan would say exactly what she thought.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 17, 2008, 8:10 PM
Post #167 of 541 (1752 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

This should be a new thread but I'll add my .02.

He is a good guy that went the wrong way. Hopefully he can do some good in prison while he is paying for his crime if they don't put him to death. Doing good does not exempt you from the laws of our society.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 17, 2008, 8:33 PM
Post #168 of 541 (1721 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

J, my words are there to get people to think and examine. I know you are one of the few people here who have educated yourself on the skyride issue. Unfortunately, I think many people here don't know the details, nor do I know ALL the details. But I am not blindly backing one side or the other. I think Jan has done a lot to help the "common" skydiver. That however does not allow her free range to actively pursue shutting down a business. (even if they deceived their customers) When you hold a public seat, there are rules and regulations that you are held to. There are many other people in this forum that have found out how government works recently.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 17, 2008, 8:42 PM
Post #169 of 541 (1709 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I take issue with that statement. I know I have never met Jan. There is no way I could consider her a friend other than I have read what she has written, I seen what she has done for the USPA and agree with most of what I have read.

You agree with the anti-trust statements she made on a public forum as a member of the BOD? Once again, I agree with most of what she says, BUT a member of the BOD can't try and take down business because of their ethics? If that was the case, there are seveal other DZ's who should be shut down for taking underage AFF's, doing RW with two tandem pairs, and breaking other BSR's or decieving their customers, not to mention other issues..... The general skydiving population is JUST as stuck in the good ol' boy network as the BOD members are...


(This post was edited by divnswoop on Jan 17, 2008, 8:46 PM)


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 17, 2008, 8:45 PM
Post #170 of 541 (1706 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When you hold a public seat, there are rules and regulations that you are held to. There are many other people in this forum that have found out how government works recently.

When there are Wrongs being committed. Does holding a public office mean you should ignore those wrongs?

Can you state exactly which Rules she violated and how she violated them?

Holding Public seat and working to shut down a business that is defrauding the general public and members of the organization that you represent is NOT against any rules that I am aware of. In fact it should be expected of anyone holding office.

You still have not addressed the Clear conflict of interest with the executive Committee members being supporters of and business associates with Skyride. Thus far we only have the implication from them that the USPA had to settle with due to Jans actions.

No one has said what it was she did. The accusation she caused the settlement is coming from a highly questionable source that has a clear conflict of interest.


skypuppy  (D 347)

Jan 17, 2008, 9:02 PM
Post #171 of 541 (1692 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Regardless of who pushed for it, a lot of people on the board must have gone along for the lawsuit to go forward, trying to blame one person is both pointless and vindictive. (In my opinion)

Now, if she did anything unethical, or rather, illegal, during the debate, in order to come up with or to dish dirt, that could be grounds for something like this.

But I don't believe she did.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 17, 2008, 9:02 PM
Post #172 of 541 (1686 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When there are Wrongs being committed. Does holding a public office mean you should ignore those wrongs?
No it doesn't....but there are right and wrong ways of going about it.

Quote:
Can you state exactly which Rules she violated and how she violated them?
No, but I am not a lawyer. There was an issue several year ago where a BOD member gave information to a lawyer about a DZ that he had a personal vendetta with, In fact it was very similar as 95% of the USPA members was against the particular DZ. The outcome was that the DZO won and probably could have shut the USPA down there due to Anti-trust laws......but he only counter-sued for $1.

Quote:
Holding Public seat and working to shut down a business that is defrauding the general public and members of the organization that you represent is NOT against any rules that I am aware of.
I agree, but there are ways about going about it.

Quote:
You still have not addressed the Clear conflict of interest with the executive Committee members being supporters of and business associates with Skyride. Thus far we only have the implication from them that the USPA had to settle with due to Jans actions.
Maybe clarity will come from the hearings...

Quote:
No one has said what it was she did. The accusation she caused the settlement is coming from a highly questionable source that has a clear conflict of interest.
once again, I agree....but you have read the lawsuit and there are proper ways about going about getting rid of somebody in your organization....


skypuppy  (D 347)

Jan 17, 2008, 9:12 PM
Post #173 of 541 (1680 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

If that was the case, there are seveal other DZ's who should be shut down for taking underage AFF's, doing RW with two tandem pairs, and breaking other BSR's or decieving their customers
_________________________________________________

Bingo!


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 17, 2008, 9:42 PM
Post #174 of 541 (1656 views)
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Re: [skypuppy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Now, if she did anything unethical, or rather, illegal, during the debate, in order to come up with or to dish dirt, that could be grounds for something like this.
.

It's easy to ignore ethic vs legal, but in the real world, they're not far apart.
Unethical=fired, impeached, removed, terminated
Illegal=fired, impeached, removed, terminated, possibly jailed and/or severely fined.

On the subject of hypotheticals...
If a member of a governing body unwittingly provided confidential and damaging information to the oposing attorney during litigation or settlement negotiation, should it be considered unethical, illegal, both, or neither?


skypuppy  (D 347)

Jan 17, 2008, 9:46 PM
Post #175 of 541 (1653 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Frankly it had to be a majority of the board that initiated the lawsuit; if Jan is the reason the organization had to settle, one would say as an executive of the organization she would have to answer TO HER EMPLOYERS, IN OTHER WORDS, THE MEMBERSHIP.

In other words, the settlement should be made available to the members, the things Jan did to force the organization into a settlement, and how much it cost the organization as a result.

A person is entitled to make a mistake; it would be up to the membership then to decide if they still believed in her and whether or not to continue to support her as their representative.

It is NOT the king's decision - all he should be able to do is make a recommendation.


skypuppy  (D 347)

Jan 17, 2008, 9:50 PM
Post #176 of 541 (1490 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

unwittingly provided confidential and damaging information to the oposing attorney

The key word there is 'unwittingly'. I'd argue that it is just incompetence, not illegal or unethical. On the other hand it might be considered that for the opposing attorney to act on that questionably obtained information could be considered unethical, and even in some cases illegal.


pilotdave  (D License)

Jan 18, 2008, 4:36 AM
Post #177 of 541 (1403 views)
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Re: [skypuppy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

You understand that USPA was sued by skyride, not the other way around, right? Jan spoke out against skyride before, during, and after the lawsuit. Skyride didn't like that a national director of the uspa was badmouthing them and then the uspa kicked out their owners and the dropzones they own. Thats why they sued. Jan was named specifically in the lawsuit. I don't know where all this stuff about providing information to the opposing attorney comes from. Jan pissed off the uspa board. They told her to shut up about skyride and she didn't. Good for her... but it probably cost the uspa some money and probably opens the uspa up to another lawsuit from skyride. The uspa is afraid that having a national director that's likely to speak out against skyride publicly will cost them more money. They took down their consumer alert about skyride, but jan still has a whole website about skyride. USPA wants to cut their ties to her.

Course I'm just guessing here...

Dave


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 18, 2008, 4:49 AM
Post #178 of 541 (1387 views)
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Re: [skypuppy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Frankly it had to be a majority of the board that initiated the lawsuit; if Jan is the reason the organization had to settle, one would say as an executive of the organization she would have to answer TO HER EMPLOYERS, IN OTHER WORDS, THE MEMBERSHIP

Skypuppy, this may be too personal of a question but did you vote for or against impeaching Clinton?


(This post was edited by divnswoop on Jan 18, 2008, 4:51 AM)


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Jan 18, 2008, 4:52 AM
Post #179 of 541 (1386 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Cutting their ties with someone who has in the past made statements and set up websites relating to Skyride may be necessary before the USPA is actually able to take any further action in relation to Skyride.

I know there's a substantial conspiracy theory here in this thread... but it is just possible that the USPA is doing this so that they can in the future take action against Skyride without getting sued again.

...maybe.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Jan 18, 2008, 5:12 AM
Post #180 of 541 (1375 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I don't understand how any court in America would allow somewhat anonymous postings on an internet forum as evidence. Look at all the drunk ramblings in bonfire and other forums, how serious can you really take most of what you see on internet forums.

Actually there is plenty of case law stating exactly the opposite. Statements on the internet are real and carry real consequences civilly and criminally.

How do they prove who actually typed it and if they weren't under the influence of something? Not to mention that the USPA attornies didn't do their due dilligence. We need to fire whoever hired them!


J


(This post was edited by jlmiracle on Jan 18, 2008, 5:21 AM)


Trent

Jan 18, 2008, 5:45 AM
Post #181 of 541 (1353 views)
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Re: USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quick question... How can the terms of settlement in Skyride's lawsuit against the USPA, which is funded and composed of US, be kept secret from US? We aren't just stockholders, we ARE the USPA, are we not?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 18, 2008, 5:46 AM
Post #182 of 541 (1353 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You understand that USPA was sued by skyride, not the other way around, right? Jan spoke out against skyride before, during, and after the lawsuit. Skyride didn't like that a national director of the uspa was badmouthing them and then the uspa kicked out their owners and the dropzones they own. Thats why they sued. Jan was named specifically in the lawsuit.

Now this thread is getting somewhere. Let's see how many people will ignore your post, and continue on with the conspiracy theories.

The number of people who seem to think that the USPA sued Skyride just indicates how little they understand about the situation. I'm far from an expert on this, but at least I know who sued who, and why.

As for everyone crowing about details, and Glen Bangs keeping a lid on everything, get a grip. Bangs may be a 'good old boy', but that's not relevant in this situation. It's almost standard practice in a settlement that the defendants are required to keep the details of the settlement confidential. These datials may have included the removal of Jan from the BOD.

Anyway you look at, Skyride had the USPA bent over a barrel. At the time of the settlement one of two things happened - either the USPA ran out of money to defend the remaining charges, or they realized that they were guilty of the remaining charges, and were able to settle for less than the expected cost of the continued defense and resulting judgement that would be brought against them.

USPA has every right to out people or DZs from the organization. The do not have the right to publically ruin the 'good name' of those people or businesses. In this case, Jan's out spoken nature worked against the USPA as she is an elected representative, and in turn, her actions represent the USPA, good or bad.

This is similar to the situation with Kip, the RD in the mideastern region. He did an underage tandem without filing for a waiver. Thankfully everything turned out ok on that jump, but seeing as he is a sitting BOD memeber, and the infraction of the rules was a matter of public record, he needs to be removed from the board. If he is involved in any further incidents, either due to his poor judegement, or just a legitimate accident, and it comes out that he had a history of this behavior and that the USPA knew about it, and took no action, it opens the USPA up to a great liability.

Now why the USPA is choosing to oust one liability from the BOD, and not the other is anyone's guess. The fact remains that its flat negligence to allow a person who has opened the USPA up to great liability (or actual cost in the form of defending a lawsuit) to remain on the board. Allowing such a person to remain on the board sets a precedent of bad judgement on the part of the board as a whole, and in turn the entire organization.

Maybe Jan is a great person, and maybe everything else she did was great for the skydiving and the USPA, but in this instance, the BODs hands are tied, and they have to protect the organization (and they may actually HAVE to in order to satisfy the settlement).


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 18, 2008, 5:51 AM
Post #183 of 541 (1344 views)
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Re: [Trent] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Quick question... How can the terms of settlement in Skyride's lawsuit against the USPA, which is funded and composed of US, be kept secret from US? We aren't just stockholders, we ARE the USPA, are we not?

The terms of the settlement are set by Skyride, not the USPA. Clearly they had the upper hand in the lawsuit, so the USPA needed to settle.

Being dirty back-handed weasels, it's not hard to imagine that Skyride stipulated that the terms of the settlement not be released to the membership. This way they spin the story anyway they want when they explain themsleves to jumpers.

Lets face it, they still own DZs, and still need staff, and want fun jumpers around, so the details of how they ass-raped the USPA might put a damper on that.

If I was them, I would have made sure the details never got out.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 18, 2008, 5:56 AM
Post #184 of 541 (1341 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
USPA has every right to out people or DZs from the organization.

They tried that. They got sued.

In reply to:
The do not have the right to publically ruin the 'good name' of those people or businesses.

What Good name?? The name of a Business that there are well documented cases of defrauding the general public for many years?

How do ignore the fact that members of the Executive Committee are supporters of and business associates of the group they settled with?

If there is any impropriety here.. That is IT!!


skypuppy  (D 347)

Jan 18, 2008, 6:14 AM
Post #185 of 541 (1321 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was in favor of impeaching Bill Clinton. For that matter I wasn't impressed with Hillary's ethical behavior either.

The difference of course is that Bill got worried about his image and/or the bogeyman, sexual harassment and then entered into a conspiracy to cover it up (in my opinion); where Jan is obviously willing to let people know her opinions in a website that is supposedly still up, and is willing to stand up for her beliefs.

I believe some people here are saying USPA didn't want to defend the lawsuit, not that what Jan said was untrue. That is a major distinction.


(This post was edited by skypuppy on Jan 18, 2008, 6:33 AM)


Trent

Jan 18, 2008, 6:18 AM
Post #186 of 541 (1315 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand that, but if someone is suing the USPA, aren't they in effect, suing us? I guess my thinking is that if the USPA exists only because of us, and it is OUR organization, no settlements should be made without being put forth to the membership via their ND-RD's. If WE decide to tell the suing parties to piss off at the expense of bankrupting ourselves, that should be our right. AT LEAST, we should be told how our money (or whatever the conditions) is being spent to settle something we never agreed to settle.

How can OUR organization be asked, or on their own, keep secrets from us? Seems like it defeats the whole purpose of the organization.


(This post was edited by Trent on Jan 18, 2008, 6:20 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 18, 2008, 6:21 AM
Post #187 of 541 (1313 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What Good name?? The name of a Business that there are well documented cases of defrauding the general public for many years?

Again, you and I know the real deal. We know what they're doing, but they seem to have found ways to skirt the law, have not been found guilty in a court fo law. Yeah, it sucks but that's the reality.

The continuation of that reality is that they have the right to protect their 'good name', even if it's only 'good' in the strictest legal sense. That gives them the right to bring suit against the USPA, from the looks of it they would have won, or bankrupted the organization in the process.

Quote:
How do ignore the fact that members of the Executive Committee are supporters of and business associates of the group they settled with?

What I don't get is that if this collusion exists, why would the BOD attempt to remove the Skyride crew from the USPA in the first place?

Wouldn't it make more sense for the conspirators to leave them in the USPA, and just claim, 'There's nothing we can do about it'?

Look, I'm not a big fan of the USPA, but I do see how removing Jan from the board is the prudent thing to do. It might not be fair, but to leave a liability like that in place is just asking for trouble in the future.

Check out the ad that Ted Strong runs every month in Parachutist. Do you really think Ted wants to devote 1/3 of his ad space to the harness mod that keeps fat people in a tandem harness?

Furthermore, do you think Ted wants to run an ad which shows a mod to his product, which he has sold and considered safe for many years?

Of course not, but one bad incident has now set the precedent. It's plausable for Ted to deny any knowledge of how a fat person could fall out of his tandem harness BEFORE the incident. If it should ever happen again, and Ted took no action, Strong Enterprises and everything else he owns would be lost in the ensuing lawsuit.

If Jan were allowed to stay, and got a bug up her ass about something else in a year or two, and took similar actions, this would open the USPA up to another lawsuit. I'm fairly certain that the lawyers in that suit would research the Skyride suit, and once they saw that the actor in that suit was still a BOD member, and had been the actor in their suit, the case would be a slam dunk. There would be no settlement, and in the end, there would be no USPA.

I know that's what many people are shooting for anyway, but we all know that's not the best way to go about it. Starting a new organization, and killing the USPA by slowly stealing all its membership is the way to go.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 18, 2008, 6:24 AM
Post #188 of 541 (1301 views)
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Re: [Trent] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I understand that, but if someone is suing the USPA, aren't they in effect, suing us? I guess my thinking is that if the USPA exists only because of us, and it is OUR organization, no settlements should be made without being put forth to the membership via their ND-RD's. If WE decide to tell the suing parties to piss off at the expense of bankrupting ourselves, that should be our right. AT LEAST, we should be told how our money (or whatever the conditions) is being spent to settle something we never agreed to settle.

I hear you man, but that's why we have elections. There's no practical way to run an organization of 32,000 people if you intend to hold general elections on every issue.

So we elect a representative to handle that business. By giving someone your vote during the elections, you're giving them your vote during every BOD meeting, and on every issue that comes across their desk.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 18, 2008, 6:27 AM
Post #189 of 541 (1300 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ask the EC, any member that had any association with Skyride excused themselves from being involved in the settling of this situation. At least 1 member of the EC stepped aside in this process to remove the percieved conflict of interest.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 18, 2008, 6:31 AM
Post #190 of 541 (1289 views)
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Re: [skypuppy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was in favor of impeaching Bill Clinton. For that matter I wasn't impressed with Hillary's ethical behavior either.

But did YOU get to vote?...or the people who represent you.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 18, 2008, 6:32 AM
Post #191 of 541 (1290 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What I don't get is that if this collusion exists, why would the BOD attempt to remove the Skyride crew from the USPA in the first place?

Wouldn't it make more sense for the conspirators to leave them in the USPA, and just claim, 'There's nothing we can do about it'?

The BOD Voted Skyride out, The Executive Committee settled with them and let them back in..

One last time I ask..

1) What actions of Jans caused us to have to settle? No one really knows. No one can say. Just that that is what the EC is implying.

2) Was that decision made on sound legal Advise?

3) doesn’t it bother anyone else that the EC that kept everything secret about this lawsuit while it was going on and then settled it with out consulting with the BOD and/or the general membership?

4) Does anyone else see the impropriety in the EC that is handling this matter is made up of Skyride supporters and business associates?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 18, 2008, 6:49 AM
Post #192 of 541 (1262 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the USPA, and I don't defend most of their actions.

In this case, however, I can see how this is the appropriate action.

The reason Skyride could bring an anti-trust lawsuit is that in some way the USPA attempted to limit the marketplace.

It doesn't take a genius to see that creating an anti-Skyride website is an attempt to limit the marketplace, or at least exclude Skyride from it.

On its own, this is harmless, and a simple case of libel/slander agaisnt the person (s) responsible for the website.

The fact that the person responsible was a sitting member of the BOD for the national organization that the handles the industry is where this becomes an anti-trust suit.

We all need to realize that once you accept a position on the BOD, everything you do with regards to skydiving has a direct connection to the USPA. You become a representative, in the legal sense, for better or worse.

Is it fair that she has to go? No.

Was she doing anything that was outwardly bad for skydiving? No, quite the opposite.

Did she have any malice toward the USPA in her actions? No.

Did she open the USPA up to considerable legal and financial liability? Yes.

Can she be allowed to remain on the board, representing the USPA, in light of this? No.


cocik  (A 3450)

Jan 18, 2008, 7:27 AM
Post #193 of 541 (1202 views)
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Re: [Trent] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

interesting discussion, but guys, let me ask a question...

as a student/novice jumper I was always encouraged to look for advice & help from my instructors, respect opinions of those who are far more experienced than I am, and always ask for a qualified advice from a knowledgable person in that particular discipline

so my question is simple - are there any experienced lawyers in this forum (with sufficient knowledge of this case), who can provide a qualified opinion to this matter?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 18, 2008, 7:30 AM
Post #194 of 541 (1198 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
We all need to realize that once you accept a position on the BOD, everything you do with regards to skydiving has a direct connection to the USPA. You become a representative, in the legal sense, for better or worse.

Exactly. Look at dozens if not more past threads where it's said "XXXX did this, and that bastard is a RD" or "XXX did that and he's on the EC..." BOD members have a responsibility to the organization, and they're held to a different standard than you or I. As a member of any administrative body, words in any direction carry significantly more weight than they do when spoken by a layperson. Who has more credibility being interviewed about a stock scandal, Joe Schmoe, stockholder/janitor? Or Winston Cartwright, Senior Vice President at Berkshire-Hathaway? After all, both are stockholders in the company, just as we're all "stockholders" in USPA.

I'm not a spokesperson for the organization. Therefore I'm not hostage to any responsibility to the organization. Were I elected to wear the badge, I'd be responsible to the greater good of the organization, and any personal issues I might have must be shelved.

If I couldn't shelve those issues, I'd expect myself to step down/aside.


(This post was edited by DSE on Jan 18, 2008, 7:31 AM)


bbarnhouse  (D License)
Pixie
Jan 18, 2008, 7:34 AM
Post #195 of 541 (1188 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

DSE~
I will look forward to seeing your name on the ballot.Smile


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 18, 2008, 7:38 AM
Post #196 of 541 (1175 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It doesn't take a genius to see that creating an anti-Skyride website is an attempt to limit the marketplace, or at least exclude Skyride from it.

Not when that website contains factual information about a company that is defrauding the general public and members of organization that she represents.

In fact that website could be seen as PROTECTING the marketplace from a predatory and fraudulent company that is damaging the free market place.

Elected officials have an OBLIGATION to inform the membership and general public about these things.

The fact that many Skydiving center exist and operate outside of the USPA could be argued by a COMPETENT attorney as proof that anti-trust is not relevant.

In reply to:
On its own, this is harmless, and a simple case of libel/slander agaisnt the person (s) responsible for the website.

Not when the information presented is factual.

In reply to:
The fact that the person responsible was a sitting member of the BOD for the national organization that the handles the industry is where this becomes an anti-trust suit.

That is because the USPA made the mistake of creating the Group Membership program to begin with making them appear to some as a Trade organization. A true root cause analysis of why we may have been forced to settle could be that we have a group membership program in the first place. Are we a trade organization or are we a member organization? Who does the USPA really represent?

The fact that this issue is questionable may be the REAL reason we were forced to settle.

In reply to:
You become a representative, in the legal sense, for better or worse.

And with that comes the responsibility to protect the members of the organization that you represent and the general public. Notifying the general Public about factual information should be part of ANY elected officials responsibilities.

It is very easy to point fingers, blame Jan and let her take the fall for this but the reality is that there are MANY reasons we got screwed. Jan fulfilling her obligations to her constituency and the general public is the least of the reasons in my opinion.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 18, 2008, 7:50 AM
Post #197 of 541 (1166 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm not a spokesperson for the organization. Therefore I'm not hostage to any responsibility to the organization. Were I elected to wear the badge, I'd be responsible to the greater good of the organization, and any personal issues I might have must be shelved.

Thinking in terms of the greater good of the organization, can you see how Jan needs to be removed from the board?

Not from a peronsal standpoint, or even based on what you know to be the 'right' thing to do, but based on the legal situation as it currently exists.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 18, 2008, 8:05 AM
Post #198 of 541 (1134 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

NO!!! She is the only voice some of us have. You can not erase the dessenting opinion.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 18, 2008, 8:10 AM
Post #199 of 541 (1128 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It doesn't take a genius to see that creating an anti-Skyride website is an attempt to limit the marketplace, or at least exclude Skyride from it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not when that website contains factual information about a company that is defrauding the general public and members of organization that she represents.

In fact that website could be seen as PROTECTING the marketplace from a predatory and fraudulent company that is damaging the free market place.

Elected officials have an OBLIGATION to inform the membership and general public about these things.

The fact that many Skydiving center exist and operate outside of the USPA could be argued by a COMPETENT attorney as proof that anti-trust is not relevant


I understand your feelings on this, but some of your assumptions are not correct. If this was indeed not a legitimate anti-trust suit, than the USPA would not have settled.

In fact, it never would have made it to trial if the case no merit.

The fact that it made it to trial, and that settling was found to be the best option all points to this being a legitimate anti-trust suit.

Again I understand your feelings, but you're not a lawyer (as fas as I know) and not an expert in the field of anti-trust lawsuits. Neither am I, but my statements are based on the sitaution at hand. Your statements are based on yor impression of what youthink should or should not be considered anit-trust.

As far as your finger pointing at the USPA lawyers as being incompetent, this is the first I have heard of any of this. Not knowing these people, or having knowledge of their actions with regards to this case, I have no place to speak on this issue, and most likely, neither do you.

Quote:
the USPA made the mistake of creating the Group Membership program to begin with making them appear to some as a Trade organization.

This is 100% true. However, everything Jan did was after the GM program was in place, and she had full knowledge of the GM program and it's intent and scope.

Her actions can only be considered in light of the actual situation at the time of her actions. You are correct in your claim that if the GM program did not exist, the lawsuit may have not existed, but the reality is that it did, and it did.


I think what you're missing here is that this not an emotional decision. Your feelings about how things should be are not relevant. How things actually are is what is relevant.

1.The USPA was sued for anti-trust actions.

2.The suit named Jan, and her website as the cause.

3.The suit went to trial, and was argued in front of a judge in a court of law.

4.Portions of the suit had enough merit that the USPA settled the suit to put a limit on the losses it would be taking.

5.In the wake of this, it is neccesary for the USPA to sever it's ties to Jan in order to protect itself from future liability.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Jan 18, 2008, 8:14 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 18, 2008, 8:14 AM
Post #200 of 541 (1118 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thinking in terms of the greater good of the organization, can you see how Jan needs to be removed from the board?

Not from a peronsal standpoint, or even based on what you know to be the 'right' thing to do, but based on the legal situation as it currently exists.

Yes, I can.
I did not begin the day yesterday with that opinion. I'm uncomfortable with my opinion now, but believe it's the appropriate opinion.
Regardless of how/why USPA was being sued by Skyride, how USPA got into that position; nothing should have been said from a position of authority against Skyride during or after litigation if a standard order of confidentiality was placed on it. IMO, Jan would have been, and still could be much more effective in the fight by stepping aside from USPA and continuing the fight on an individual platform vs on the USPA platform.
It's not uninteresting that it's often posted in the Incidents forum that posters need to be cautious of what is said, as it may be used by the family of the deceased to sue a DZ, pilot, manufacturer, whomever, but for whatever reason, that same prudence isn't being recognized in this very similar situation. If a perceived Expert in our sport posts that "XXX died because of stainless RSL," then it must be so, because Expert with 6000 jumps says so, providing a perfect affidavit for an attorney.
Wouldn't one imagine that a posting by a member of the BOD carries the same weight, if not greater weight?
I'm not excited about understanding the process that brought me to a different conclusion than I'd begun my day with, but after careful consideration, I think it's the correct one.
However, I'm not on the BOD and therefore cannot vote, so my opinion isn't worth the time it took you to read my post.


(This post was edited by DSE on Jan 18, 2008, 8:15 AM)


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 18, 2008, 8:24 AM
Post #201 of 541 (2194 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
NO!!! She is the only voice some of us have. You can not erase the dessenting opinion.

No?
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3086729#3086729


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 18, 2008, 8:25 AM
Post #202 of 541 (2193 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Her actions can only be considered in light of the actual situation at the time of her actions. You are correct in your claim that if the GM program did not exist, the lawsuit may have not existed, but the reality is that it did, and it did.

So was the real root cause of us getting screwed The GM program or Jans actions? Which came first?

The reality is this motion should fail if RDs and NDs I have talked to told me the truth about their feelings. Enough have said they do not feel that there is cause to impeach her that there is no way the 2/3 majority will be reached.

Unless the executive committee pulls some stunt that excludes voting members (Such as calling for the vote before everyone arrives). Politics can get real sleazy like that sometimes.

So if this is actually handled above board, It is a waste of time. I just hope that if there is a Vote, the general membership gets a chance to find out how their representatives voted.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 18, 2008, 8:28 AM
Post #203 of 541 (2185 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Thinking in terms of the greater good of the organization, can you see how Jan needs to be removed from the board?

Not from a peronsal standpoint, or even based on what you know to be the 'right' thing to do, but based on the legal situation as it currently exists.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, I can.
I did not begin the day yesterday with that opinion. I'm uncomfortable with my opinion now, but believe it's the appropriate opinion.

I'm not 'comfortable' with it either, but the USPA is in damage control mode, and this is what needs to happen.

We all know that there was no malice toward the USPA on Jan's part. We also know that her actions were really for the greater good of all skydivers, and future skydivers.

Much like Skyride has used very slim legal standings to defend it's business practices, they used the same standings to push the USPA into this postition.

I wouldn't be surprised if one the terms of the settlement was her impaechment at the next BOD meeting.

I have a feeling that Skyride wasn't looking to destroy the USPA, which is why they agreed to a settlement. They could have easily pushed through the trial, and drained the USPA resources enough that the final judgement would have sealed the USPAs coffin.

I don't think they wanted that because the Skyride crew are still skydivers looking to make money off of skydiving, and by and large the USPA is good for people trying to make money off of skydiving.

If Jan were to remian on the board, and another situation was to occur, even if it didn't involve Jan, the fact that she was allowed to remain after opening up the organization to great legal liability points toward the USPA being mis-managed, and weakens it's legs in any future suit.

If that suit was brought by an entity that had no concern for the future of, or even the overall existance or the USPA, it's not hard to imagine that suit marking an expensive, embarrasing, and damaging end to the USPA.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 18, 2008, 8:35 AM
Post #204 of 541 (2171 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I understand that, but if someone is suing the USPA, aren't they in effect, suing us? I guess my thinking is that if the USPA exists only because of us, and it is OUR organization, no settlements should be made without being put forth to the membership via their ND-RD's. If WE decide to tell the suing parties to piss off at the expense of bankrupting ourselves, that should be our right. AT LEAST, we should be told how our money (or whatever the conditions) is being spent to settle something we never agreed to settle.

I hear you man, but that's why we have elections. There's no practical way to run an organization of 32,000 people if you intend to hold general elections on every issue.

So we elect a representative to handle that business. By giving someone your vote during the elections, you're giving them your vote during every BOD meeting, and on every issue that comes across their desk.

Exactly.

The USPA is a 'buffer' of sorts, yes it 'is' us, but on the other hand, say a lawsuit (of any type) goes against the USPA for say....15 million, do we all buck up 500,000 to pay it off?

How far do you take the US argument?!

It's a trust in judgement thing between the membership and the governing body.

You elect officials to run the organization, if you don't like the way it's run, if you no longer 'trust their judgement' ...elect new officials.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 18, 2008, 8:46 AM
Post #205 of 541 (2161 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
NO!!! She is the only voice some of us have. You can not erase the dessenting opinion.

No?
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3086729#3086729

What does that have to do with anything? More then likely this think was settled after a cost analysis. If we are going to get rid of people then we get gid of all that voted to out Skyride. And as for you notion that the law suit would not have gone to court if there was no merit, I say bull shit. There are cases creeping through our court system everyday that have no merit. Brought there by the lawyers that are getting rich from the system that they helped to create. Hey, sounds familiar doesn't it.


wrightskyguy  (D 19665)

Jan 18, 2008, 9:13 AM
Post #206 of 541 (2129 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thinking in terms of the greater good of the organization, can you see how Jan needs to be removed from the board?

Not from a peronsal standpoint, or even based on what you know to be the 'right' thing to do, but based on the legal situation as it currently exists.
I can see it. Should we let things continue as they are, then USPA loses thier (our) ass in litigation, our already high dues are doubled to cover the cost, yeah, nobody would bitch about that. Just as long as Jan was allowed to stay in office. Sometimes it's painful, but you've got to consider the greater good.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 18, 2008, 9:34 AM
Post #207 of 541 (2098 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Cutting their ties with someone who has in the past made statements and set up websites relating to Skyride may be necessary before the USPA is actually able to take any further action in relation to Skyride.

I know there's a substantial conspiracy theory here in this thread... but it is just possible that the USPA is doing this so that they can in the future take action against Skyride without getting sued again.

...maybe.

As an aside, there really is only one way to address this "skyride issue", and that's complete elimination of the Group Membership program.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 18, 2008, 9:49 AM
Post #208 of 541 (2075 views)
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Re: [wrightskyguy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
then USPA loses thier (our) ass in litigation, our already high dues are doubled to cover the cost, yeah, nobody would bitch about that.

What exactly did this cost the USPA? Anyone Know? I strongly suspect that they only thing the USPA paid out of pocket for this entire fiasco was the deductible on their liability insurance policy. If that cost was spread among all out member it would probably be less than a very cheap cup of instant coffee.

Once again.. It is easy to say that this was Jans fault but the reality is the REAL reason we had to settle was because the USPA created the Group membership program in the first place making us appear to be a Trade organization instead of a Member organization.

I challenge ANYONE to find a single post from Jan on the Skyride issues after the lawsuit was filed. Good Luck.

As for the Suit.. It NEVER went to Trail in fact in never even completed the discovery phase.

People saying that it was Jans fault.. Tell me exactly what she did to cause this and when did it happen?

I can say with confidence that what caused this was the USPA created a Group Membership program that made them look like a trade organization. Anything after that is irrelevant. We were doomed to failure from that point forward no matter what else happened.

I also believe that the EC is trying to use Jan as a scapegoat and blame her for their own mishandling of this issue.

Want to make sure this doesn’t happen again?? Scrap the GM program and have the USPA go back to representing the general membership.


(This post was edited by Thanatos340 on Jan 18, 2008, 9:51 AM)


gjhdiver  (D 7731)

Jan 18, 2008, 9:51 AM
Post #209 of 541 (2072 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I shall reserve judgment until I am in receipt of all the facts. I know that may strike some of you as a radical suggestion, when clearly, there's no problem so severe that it can't be solved by some keyboard flexing on dropzone.com

In the near on quarter century that I've been a USPA member, I can't recall more than a couple of impeachment attempts. It's not done lightly, and I doubt sincerely whether it would be brought by one Skyride influenced board member, as there would be little or no chance of success.

There's a procedure in place to let this play out. Turning up at board meeting wearing matching T-Shirts is not going to influence it. Boycotting a DZ isn't going to influence it. Let's see just what the issue is shall we ?


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jan 18, 2008, 10:03 AM
Post #210 of 541 (2045 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

It's almost standard practice in a settlement that the defendants are required to keep the details of the settlement confidential. These datials may have included the removal of Jan from the BOD..
I don't believe that a condition like that would be enforceable.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jan 18, 2008, 10:20 AM
Post #211 of 541 (2029 views)
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Re: [gjhdiver] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Stop making so much sense, Gareth. I'm trying to learn what I can prior to the meeting, but so far I've discounted most of what I've heard if it didn't come directly from a member of the BOD.

I'm still going to turn up at the board meeting (probably not in a matching t-shirt), so I can learn something, voice my opinion if there's an opportunity to do so, and participate in the process. It's the least I can do as a member of a membership organization - to let my elected representatives know that I'm around and paying attention.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 18, 2008, 11:09 AM
Post #212 of 541 (1962 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Want to make sure this doesn’t happen again?? Scrap the GM program and have the USPA go back to representing the general membership.

This will never happen because if it did then the USPA could not strongarm the DZs into requiring USPA membership. Hmm,talk about influencing business practices.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 18, 2008, 11:52 AM
Post #213 of 541 (1911 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Alot of people are upset with those who seem to be in bed with Skyride.. why don't you just try and get those people impeached.. I'm sure if you dig far enough, you'de be able to find grounds.

BTW... who is in bed with Skyride? I have a hate on for Skyride, but I see these shiny happy faces in Parachutist and.... well they don't really bother me. Who's picture should I be scowling at?

BTW, if you are a BOD or RD or ND or EC member of the USPA, you should probably refrain from answering that question... or at least maybe do it in a PMWink


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 18, 2008, 2:45 PM
Post #214 of 541 (1792 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't believe it's a secret that Skydive Dallas, owned by Lee Schlichtemeier (Southwest RD and USPA Treasurer) supports Skyride/accepts their coupons.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jan 18, 2008, 8:03 PM
Post #215 of 541 (1658 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Jan,

You and I have not always seen eye to eye on everything. But you were there when issues concerning the welfare of the jumpers were present.

It is my opinion that Banks is letting his personal feeling influence his judgment and turning this into a vendetta. It is time he stepped down.

If in fact you do get impeached, dinner and drinks are on me at any restaurant of your choice west of the Mississippi. And Glen can eat at Denny’s.

Sparky

Demigods come in all flavors.Mad


Zenister  (A 42)

Jan 18, 2008, 10:03 PM
Post #216 of 541 (1602 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I Skydivers simply don't care for the most part enough to vote with what counts, money. Therefore nothing will change.

QFT..

on more issues than simply this... skydivers are a selfish bunch of entitled bastards..

"it doesn't affect MY jumping, why should I care??" I've heard more than once...

time for an alternative to the USPA and to dropzones that are more about the 'business of' than the 'activity of' skydiving.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 18, 2008, 10:27 PM
Post #217 of 541 (1588 views)
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Re: [Zenister] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In 9 years I've seen at least 3 alternatives to the USPA come and go. The problem is getting people to support ANOTHER whale.

It's time to take back the USPA, and return to a member driven organization.


Zenister  (A 42)

Jan 18, 2008, 10:33 PM
Post #218 of 541 (1584 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I will remove my drop zone from the list of USPA Group Members, and make it known that Individual Membership is no longer required at my DZ.

Martin
Air Capital Drop Zone

if/when this happens i will be up to jump in kansas (and any other non USPA/non Skyride DZ) as soon as my schedule will allow..


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 19, 2008, 6:39 AM
Post #219 of 541 (1515 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
....It is my opinion that Banks is letting his personal feeling influence his judgment and turning this into a vendetta. It is time he stepped down.

Is...Turning? Wrong tense...this has been going on for quite a while.

This has turned into quite a convoluted mess. I'm at the point of just throwing up my hands and saying, "Fuck it. Wipe the entire slate clean and start over with new." The problem with that is that some innocents will get bashed in the process.


You can bet that Ben, Cary and all their supporters are reading all this and jerking off in gleeful ecstasy.


jtval  (D 26340)

Jan 19, 2008, 6:51 AM
Post #220 of 541 (1504 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

With all the controversy going on I bet Ben and carey can throw their names in and people who have "HEARD" about this will just vote for the "NON-encumbants."

You think they'll look at the names? Problem is that the votes don't take place until November iirc and by that time no one will remember this whole event.Unsure


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 19, 2008, 6:56 AM
Post #221 of 541 (1499 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You can bet that Ben, Cary and all their supporters are reading all this and jerking off in gleeful ecstasy.

This is true, it's who is sitting on the inside of the circle with mouth open waiting to get creamed, is the person or persons you have to look out for.


peckerhead

Jan 19, 2008, 9:14 AM
Post #222 of 541 (1416 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Unfortunately, I don't plan on seeing more than 10-15 people who post/ bitch on DZ.com there...

And that is 10 to 15 more than was there the last time. Its a start.

Actually 10 to 15 members did show up at the last meeting. Mostly from the group presenting the BSR proposal for high performance landing safety.

Oh yeah, and they were wearing matching T-shirts.


gjhdiver  (D 7731)

Jan 19, 2008, 9:20 PM
Post #223 of 541 (1234 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I'm not 'comfortable' with it either, but the USPA is in damage control mode, and this is what needs to happen.

We all know that there was no malice toward the USPA on Jan's part. We also know that her actions were really for the greater good of all skydivers, and future skydivers.

Much like Skyride has used very slim legal standings to defend it's business practices, they used the same standings to push the USPA into this postition.

I wouldn't be surprised if one the terms of the settlement was her impaechment at the next BOD meeting.

I have a feeling that Skyride wasn't looking to destroy the USPA, which is why they agreed to a settlement. They could have easily pushed through the trial, and drained the USPA resources enough that the final judgement would have sealed the USPAs coffin.

I don't think they wanted that because the Skyride crew are still skydivers looking to make money off of skydiving, and by and large the USPA is good for people trying to make money off of skydiving.

If Jan were to remian on the board, and another situation was to occur, even if it didn't involve Jan, the fact that she was allowed to remain after opening up the organization to great legal liability points toward the USPA being mis-managed, and weakens it's legs in any future suit.

If that suit was brought by an entity that had no concern for the future of, or even the overall existance or the USPA, it's not hard to imagine that suit marking an expensive, embarrasing, and damaging end to the USPA.


Let's just say without giving away too much, that you all need to read this post carefully, then go away, sit down and think for a while, read it again, and then pause before you all post some more conspricacy theories.

Whilst I don't always agree with USPA on all issues, the fact is, that if it goes away, so will half of your drop zones. SIngle entities won't have the collective bargaining power to fight for access like the association does. Complaining about USPA being political is laughable. You hold fucking elections for it. Of course it's political. I guarantee that whatever drop zone you jump at is politcal at a local level too. It's the nature of the beast.

On the whole, USPA does a good job for all of us. Let this play out, look at the issues and the evidence and reasoning, and then form your opinions. Then vote accordingly. If it's that bad, stand for the board. The voting for baord members is laughably low for the membership. We really have very little to bitch about if we don't pay enough attention to vote.


Amazon  (D License)

Jan 19, 2008, 10:22 PM
Post #224 of 541 (1200 views)
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Re: [gjhdiver] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The voting for baord members is laughably low for the membership. We really have very little to bitch about if we don't pay enough attention to vote.

I fully intend to vote.. and I will keep an eye on what is going on. I was just going to say the hell with it and send my money to CSPA this year out of protest.. but NOW.. I think it best to just lobby everyone I know about who on the board is SELF SERVING rather than serving the membership.. I will do EVERYTING in my power to ensure that everyone I come in contact with over the next 9 months knows about who is there that is on a power trip and power hungry and who supports him and his abuse of the power that was delegated to him. That will make more of a statement to them.. one they can understand. If only one USPA Member per DZ in the country makes it known to their fellow members of what has been going on...and makes even a few other jumpers to VOTE ( get some ballots and pass them to your friends yourself) Those who do NOT serve our intereests will be gone.... and good riddenceMad


(This post was edited by Amazon on Jan 19, 2008, 10:24 PM)


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jan 20, 2008, 8:49 AM
Post #225 of 541 (1087 views)
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Re: [Amazon] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was just going to say the hell with it and send my money to CSPA this year out of protest..
LaughLaughIf you only knew.LaughLaugh


itllclear  (D 6366)

Jan 20, 2008, 1:32 PM
Post #226 of 541 (1219 views)
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Re: [gjhdiver] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We really have very little to bitch about if we don't pay enough attention to vote.

If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

I think anyone who posts on this or any other thread complaining about the USPA board should indicate in the post whether or not they voted in the last election.

For myself, yes I voted.

I also in the past have gone through the process of getting signatures of 10% of the people in my region in order to run for election and served a term on the Board as a Regional Director.

What have each of the others who are posting done to try to change things?

Don't whine about things...DO something about things.

BSBD

Harry L


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 20, 2008, 1:41 PM
Post #227 of 541 (1213 views)
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Re: [itllclear] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I voted. I helped a candidate with his election process. I attended a Board meeting.
And am attending the next board meeting in Orlando.
Does my opinion count?TongueAngelic


itllclear  (D 6366)

Jan 20, 2008, 2:44 PM
Post #228 of 541 (1173 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Does my opinion count?
In reply to:

Yes.

But all others only if they take the ACTION of voting in the next election.


(This post was edited by itllclear on Jan 20, 2008, 2:46 PM)


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 6:28 AM
Post #229 of 541 (977 views)
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Re: [itllclear] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

So far I've heard Skydive Dallas... who else is in bed with Skyride? Someone has go to have the cahonies to just say it. I've seen a few dozen accusatory posts, but no names....

Let's at the very least make it known who NOT to vote for next time.

I'm seeing a lot of smack talk and accusations to this thread, but no real meat. You want to make a difference... out someone who is responsible for this mess. Sounds like Jan got (is) (will be) screwed. Who is the one doing the screwing??

Is it Glenn Bangs? Does he have interest in seeing Skyride succeed?


itllclear  (D 6366)

Jan 21, 2008, 6:31 AM
Post #230 of 541 (971 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your profile shows you've been jumping for 3 years. Did you vote in the last election?


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 6:32 AM
Post #231 of 541 (967 views)
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Re: [itllclear] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm Canadian... I don't believe we can vote. And I haven't updated my profile in 2 years.


itllclear  (D 6366)

Jan 21, 2008, 6:35 AM
Post #232 of 541 (957 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm Canadian... I don't believe we can vote.
You can join USPA and vote for any Regional Director as well as National Directors.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 6:36 AM
Post #233 of 541 (954 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Right now, my interest in this is primarily because I want to see the people involved with Skyride get what they coming to them.

At this point, the worst I can do to them is take my money to CSPA, since I am slowly starting to believe that the USPA has begun to or slowly will become an extension of Skyride. Or at least a back alley envelope type partner.

I have issues with the CSPA too... but not this type of issue.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 6:41 AM
Post #234 of 541 (950 views)
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Re: [itllclear] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am and have been a USPA member for 5 years, but I was under the assumption that we couldn't vote.

If I can vote.. I will. I have little information of who to vote for.. but I would sure as hell not vote for someone who has anything to do with Skyride.

A little history... I have habitually been a non-voter for most of my life (I am 30 yrs. old). In the past year I have come to see the err of my way and voted for the first time in the ON. provincial election, and have decided that I will vote for anything that I have the right to vote for. (Included in my voting process will be information gathering)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 21, 2008, 6:42 AM
Post #235 of 541 (948 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Sounds like Jan got (is) (will be) screwed. Who is the one doing the screwing??

Is it Glenn Bangs? Does he have interest in seeing Skyride succeed?

I'm not sure what one thing has to do with another.

Jan took actions of her own accord, and the USPA got sued (and lost) because of it. Regardless of the Skyride situation, she needs to be removed from the BOD to protect the USPA in the case of future litigation.

She has proven herself to be a person who can be a legal liability to the organization. By leaving her in a position of authority, the USPA would be, in effect, approving of her actions. That would constitute negligence on the part of the USPA, and would make future lawsuits nothning but an easy payday for the plantiff.

The situation of impeaching Jan is related only to the events follwing the lawsuit. If we had won the lawsuit, she would not have to go. The fact is that we did lose the lawsuit, and now we have to do 'damage control'. The first step was to settle the lawsuit, so the USPA didn't end up bankrupt. The second step is for the USPA to take reasonable and prudent actions to prevent similar situations in the future. In this case, Jan was the actor, and in turn, has to go.

This isn't rocket science people. It's simple business management.

None of this it to say that Glen Bangs isn't the spawn of satan, and that he's not trying to get rich off of skydivers backs, and using the USPA as his own personal tool to do so (which is crazy and probably not true).

Either way, the damage control remains the same. It would remain the same if the Easter bunny was running the USPA.


itllclear  (D 6366)

Jan 21, 2008, 6:48 AM
Post #236 of 541 (933 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It would remain the same if the Easter bunny was running the USPA.

Is this a "why bother to vote" statement?

How many elections have you voted in during your USPA Memmbership?


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 6:51 AM
Post #237 of 541 (925 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I will eat my words. I understand and fully agree that she has to go.

I also believe that it sounds like she was a good person trying to do the right thing, but went about it the wrong way, and ended up being screwed because of it.

She was on the BOD for the USPA and bashed the snot out of one of it's group members, who happen to be innocent untill proven guilty (legally). We all know they are shitbags, but let's just say that someone on the BOD was a competing DZO with someone else and then bashed that group member in a public forum. Damn right there would be a situation to sue. It's unfortunate, but so far Skyride has the law on their side.

I was saying that she got screwed by being caught up in a shitty situation. She bent over and took the screwing and thats her fault, but she still got screwed.


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Jan 21, 2008, 6:52 AM
Post #238 of 541 (923 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jan took actions of her own accord, and the USPA got sued (and lost) because of it.

I've seen this stated several times, but haven't seen anything concrete said about the validity of the statement, just suppositions about Skyride requiring her removal as part of the the agreement.

Do you have actual proof that she was responsible for the countersuit against USPA?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:03 AM
Post #239 of 541 (911 views)
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Re: [itllclear] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It would remain the same if the Easter bunny was running the USPA.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Is this a "why bother to vote" statement?

How many elections have you voted in during your USPA Memmbership?

No. Please re-read my post. I provided a quote from the post I was replying to for context.

The comment I replied to was trying to make a connection between Glen Bangs, and the impeachment of Jan Myer. My assertion is that the make-up of the BOD or the EC has no influence on this situation. The loss of the lawsuit, and being to defend ourselves in a future lawsuit are the driving factors for her impeachment.

Even if there is a grand conspiracy to out Jan, the people behind it lucked out because now there are legitamate reasons for her to go.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:08 AM
Post #240 of 541 (904 views)
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Re: [mnealtx] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Jan took actions of her own accord, and the USPA got sued (and lost) because of it.

I've seen this stated several times, but haven't seen anything concrete said about the validity of the statement...

Read the "What can we do about Skyride?" thread. She unloaded both barrels on her foot in that thread (If I am recalling correctly, it's been a while since I've been through that thread). Check out her website. If she wasn't the reason Skyride sued USPA then she should've been. She was out of line as a BOD member. You can't argue that.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:13 AM
Post #241 of 541 (899 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Was it possible for her to make those arguments within the BOD (behind closed doors, like it should have been) though? I'm thinking that if this great big partnership of the USPA and Skyride exists in the bedroom like people are speculating, it would have been real tough to get her voice heard. Perhaps she went about it the only way she could have, but it was still a conflict of interest with her position to do it publicly. It's a shame because so many people were willing to, and were attempting to burn them at the stake without her. Her actions were probably a drop in the barrel of actions against Skyride.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:13 AM
Post #242 of 541 (898 views)
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Re: [mnealtx] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I've seen this stated several times, but haven't seen anything concrete said about the validity of the statement, just suppositions about Skyride requiring her removal as part of the the agreement.


Jan created an anti-skyride website, and being a sitting memeber of the BOD, this action was taken as representing the position of the USPA.

If this was the actions of a private citizen, it would have been tried as a libel/slander suit. Being that it was connected to the largest trade organization in skydiving, it becomes an anti-trust suit.

In terms of her impeachment being a part of the settlement, that was a supposition on my part, and I have always represented it as such. There are other valid reasons for hew impeachment, which I have repeated several times in this thread.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:16 AM
Post #243 of 541 (892 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Her impeachment could not have been a condition of the settlement since noone could possibly guarantee a majority vote. The impeachment hearing could have been a condition though.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:21 AM
Post #244 of 541 (884 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
if this great big partnership of the USPA and Skyride exists in the bedroom like people are speculating

I don't have any first hand information to confirm or deny a link between the BOD and Skyride.

However, if there was such a link, then why would they have voted to cancel the memberships of the Skyride owners, and the GM status of their DZs?

Let's remember that these actions were taken before the lawsuit, and had the lawsuit not reared it's ugly head, all of the Skyride DZ and owners would still be out of the USPA.

If a collusion did exist between the BOD and Skyride, why would they have given them the boot?

My only conclusion is that there is no such link.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:23 AM
Post #245 of 541 (874 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jan took actions of her own accord, and the USPA got sued (and lost) because of it. Regardless of the Skyride situation, she needs to be removed from the BOD to protect the USPA in the case of future litigation.

I have heard this claim yet have seen NOTHING to back it up. Could you please show me the Posts that Jan supposedly made about the Skyride Issues after the Lawsuit was filed?

In my opinion, the reason we lost this Lawsuit was that it was an Anti-trust matter and the USPA has a Group Membership program. This suit was lost from the beginning no matter what the EC is claiming that Jan did (Which no one has yet shown).

And we didn’t loose this lawsuit. This lawsuit was settled before the discovery phase was even completed. I believe that the insurance company decided it would be cheaper to settle than to fight. That is what insurance companies almost always try to do.

In reply to:
This isn't rocket science people. It's simple business management.

That is exactly what Skyride says when people start complaining about their unethical practices.

I guess the questions is now that we have been forced to let them back in, Do we want to adopt their business ethics (or lack thereof) too?


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:23 AM
Post #246 of 541 (875 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jan created an anti-skyride website, and being a sitting memeber of the BOD

As an individual.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:27 AM
Post #247 of 541 (865 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would they kick them out?

Because they couldn't ignore the lynch mob ready to burn down USPA HQ, especially since the leader of the mob was one of it's own.

That and the lawsuit from the biggest DZ in the world against someone they are affiliated with. One hand washing the other.

Perhaps if they are in bed with them, they have an interest in giving them a reason to sue. USPA President can't exactly go to the bank and withdraw the kind of money that they probably settled for without citing a good reason.

Next question: If the settlement of the lawsuit is closed book, and the financials of the USPA are open book... how's that work? Insurance cover this sort of thing?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:27 AM
Post #248 of 541 (865 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Her impeachment could not have been a condition of the settlement since noone could possibly guarantee a majority vote. The impeachment hearing could have been a condition though.

That's a good point. Any connection to the terms of the settlement is pure speculation as the terms are sealed (most likely a clause of the settlement itself).


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:30 AM
Post #249 of 541 (862 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In this post-
In reply to:
...and the USPA got sued (and lost)
And in another post-
In reply to:
The loss of the lawsuit,...

Dave, please re-read USPA's official statements about the resolution of this matter.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:30 AM
Post #250 of 541 (859 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jan created an anti-skyride website, and being a sitting memeber of the BOD, this action was taken as representing the position of the USPA.

These things were done long before the BOD voted to throw Skyride out.

As an elected official resenting Skydivers in the USPA, I think she had an OBLIGATION to get tat information out to the general public as people were being deceived by Skyride on a daily basis.

At the time the BOD voted to Oust Skyride, They were fully aware of the Site that Jan ran and the post that had been made.

The BOD voted to proceed anyway knowing full well the sites that Jan ran and the posts that had been made.

Now to go back and say well we lost because of that so we need to throw her out is asinine.


People are looking for a scapegoat. Jan is the convenient target.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:33 AM
Post #251 of 541 (1154 views)
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Re: [peek] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Jan created an anti-skyride website, and being a sitting memeber of the BOD

As an individual.

If she wanted to do it as an individual, she had every right to. She should have stepped down from her position on the board to do so.

Those group members (whether they are scumbags are not) PAY her to represent them. She can't go home and intentionally unravel the work she does in the office and not expect repercussions.

Can't have her cake and it eat it too...

It sucks but... she's lucky to not have a civil libel suit against her personally.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:33 AM
Post #252 of 541 (1154 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Perhaps if they are in bed with them, they have an interest in giving them a reason to sue.

This taking the conspiracy theory to the next level.

To allow them to remain in the USPA despite their business practices, that would have been a simple conspiracy. Easy to understand, and easy to execute.

To plan their removal, with the intent of them bringing a lawsuit for the express purpose of draining a large sum of cash from the USPA, is far more complex.

The number of things that could go wrong in trying to execute that type of plan is pretty high. You bring a large number of people into the fold, including the federal court system.

If they got caught, it would mean serious federal charges againt most everyone involved. I can't see the reward being worh that risk.

I'll stick with my theory that there is no such collusion.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Jan 21, 2008, 7:37 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:36 AM
Post #253 of 541 (1150 views)
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Re: [peek] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Dave, please re-read USPA's official statements about the resolution of this matter.

OK, lets say 'The dismissal of half of the charges, and out of court settlement of the remaining charges due to the cost of defending them, and possible loss despite that cost'


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:37 AM
Post #254 of 541 (1147 views)
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Re: [peek] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Say Gary, could you explain to those of us who may not be clear on this, the rules that apply to BOD members as to when they speak as a BOD member or as a individual. In other words, where is the line drawn, what is allowed and what is not allowed?


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:38 AM
Post #255 of 541 (1141 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if they were in collusion, you can't ignore your general membership banging down the door. Then YOU look like the bad guy.

At least at this point it "looks" like the USPA "tried" to do something right... and now back to status quo, with a minor agenda change for the next meeting.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:46 AM
Post #256 of 541 (1129 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As an elected official resenting Skydivers in the USPA, I think she had an OBLIGATION to get tat information out to the general public as people were being deceived by Skyride on a daily basis

Granted, this is what 'you think'. The fact is that the federal court system holds a different opinion than you do, at least with regards to the methods employed to distribute that information.


Quote:
These things were done long before the BOD voted to throw Skyride out

At the time the BOD voted to Oust Skyride, They were fully aware of the Site that Jan ran and the post that had been made.

The BOD voted to proceed anyway knowing full well the sites that Jan ran and the posts that had been made.

What would the alternative have been? Jan's actions had already been taken, there was no way to reverse that. Skyride was clearly not good for skydiving, clearly not who the USPA wanted in their membership.

Were they to simply take one on the chin, and take no action against Skyride because of Jans actions?

Would that have been good for skydiving?

The existance of the lawsuit, and of course it's outcome were unknown at the time the BOD voted Skyride out of the USPA. The BOD made the right move in outing them. Jan's independent actions beforehand came back to bite the USPA on the ass for sure.

But again, I ask, given that Jan's actions had taken place, what course of action against Skyride should the BOD have taken? What other options did they have?


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:50 AM
Post #257 of 541 (1124 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Jan took actions of her own accord, and the USPA got sued (and lost) because of it.

The USPA was sued because they revoked the Group Membership of a DZ affiliated with SkyRide.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:53 AM
Post #258 of 541 (1113 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Both factors played a role in the lawsuit. If one or the other was not present, the outcome would have been different.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:54 AM
Post #259 of 541 (1108 views)
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Re: [stratostar] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Say Gary, could you explain to those of us who may not be clear on this, the rules that apply to BOD members as to when they speak as a BOD member or as a individual. In other words, where is the line drawn, what is allowed and what is not allowed?

Her influence as a BOD on a national association of parachutists can not be ignored at any time when speaking publicly about a member of that organization. At least I would see it that way if I were shooting the shit with GB at a weekend boogie. The information she gathered in order to make such accusations was most likely as a direct or indirect result of her work with the USPA.

I sound like I am bashing her... I'm not. I think she was trying to do the right thing, but unfortunately she is trying to take on a bull with a flyswatter, and met the inevitable conclusion.

If people want to correct the underlying problem here, you need to look past Jan Meyers. She was a casualty of a war that needs to continue after she's gone. I'm sure she will see it that way. Move on to the big picture.

What IS the big picture, and who is involved is what I want to know. Is the USPA just status quo now with Skyride showing their logo to everyone they piss off and rip off. I don't want to give my money to an organization that will turn their head to that. Fortunately in Canada I have the option to go somewhere else, but I don't want to.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 21, 2008, 7:55 AM
Post #260 of 541 (1100 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Both factors played a role in the lawsuit. If one or the other was not present, the outcome would have been different.

That is your opinion.


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 21, 2008, 8:01 AM
Post #261 of 541 (1092 views)
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Re: [stratostar] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Say Gary, could you explain to those of us who may not be clear on this, the rules that apply to BOD members as to when they speak as a BOD member or as a individual. In other words, where is the line drawn, what is allowed and what is not allowed?

There are no "rules" about this. USPA's Governance manual has a Director "responsibilities" section but does not address this. Robert's Rules of Order does not address this as far as I know.

Being a USPA BOD member does not remove one's right to speak as an individual, (although we can see that some people think otherwise).

"In general", if a member of an organization includes their position or title in correspondence, then they are speaking for the organization.

For example, last February when I posted the paper I wrote called "The Decline in Skydiving in the 21st Century" a number of people claimed it was not a proper scientific research paper because they mistakenly assumed I was representing the Parks College Parachute Research Group.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 21, 2008, 8:07 AM
Post #262 of 541 (1080 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

You work for someone, right? DO they tell you who to vote for, what hobbies you can have, what you can read, or view, or better yet what you can say in public?

No. Because that would be both illegal and immoral.

Jan's personal life, and BOD life are separate entities and if a prosecution argument singled her out, then she had every right to answer it on her own. But they didn't and she wasn't given any such opportunity.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Jan 21, 2008, 8:27 AM)


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 21, 2008, 8:26 AM
Post #263 of 541 (1054 views)
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Re: [peek] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok so in other words, Mike Mullins can say as a sitting BOD member that "USPA's stance on age limits is fucked in the head and anyone big enough to climb into a rig and jump out of a plane should be able to do so." He can say that as a DZO and an individual as long as he says / posts that without signing off as Mike Mullins USPA BOD.???

So that would mean if I felt like setting up a website about what a lier Glenn Bangs is and then I get voted in as a BOD member, I would still have a right to maintain my "Glenn Bangs is a lier" website as a citizen of the United States, would I not? As long as I don't use it to speak as a acting BOD member, correct?

It would seem to me that if there is no clear line in the rules as to what can or can not be said or posted or placed on a website by a individual who happens to also sit on the BOD, then it could be said she was acting with in her rights to legally in act her 1st amendment rights afforded to her under the constitution of the United States as a individual citizen and individual uspa member and not as an acting BOD member of the USPA.


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Jan 21, 2008, 8:28 AM
Post #264 of 541 (1044 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I appreciate the explanation, Dave - thanks.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 8:37 AM
Post #265 of 541 (1028 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

If what you do in your personal life affects your work or the organization you work for in a negative manner, they should absolutely reserve to the right to dismiss you for that reason.

If what you do in your personal life does not affect who you work for in a negative manner, than they should not care what you do.

ie. Let's say I was on the Board of Directors for Coca Cola. Down the street from my house, there is a bottling plant. (Independantly owned, but operating under the name). I go home and on my spare time I spout my mouth off in a public pop drinkers forum about how disgusting this plant is. They ignore health code violations, bill customers for cases Coke but never deliver, leak raw sewage out the back door and whatnot. I call for their closure and their loss of the right to operate under the umbrella of the Coca Cola organization. This plant turns around and sues Coca Cola because of my actions.

Will I get fired from Coca Cola?

Absolutely, and I couldn't speculate as to what else would happen.

Edited to add: Coca Cola would probably have interest in settling with this bottling plant out of court, but would also have interest in making it go away. Question is: Does the USPA have interest in making Skyride go away or not.


(This post was edited by packerboy on Jan 21, 2008, 8:44 AM)


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 21, 2008, 8:44 AM
Post #266 of 541 (1010 views)
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Re: [peek] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There are no "rules" about this. USPA's Governance manual has a Director "responsibilities" section but does not address this. Robert's Rules of Order does not address this as far as I know.

You would actually need to look at the state laws of the state that the non-profit charter for the USPA was drawn up in to identify this information.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Jan 21, 2008, 8:47 AM
Post #267 of 541 (1005 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

You wouldn't get fired if Coca Cola went to bat and proved it was true in court. The difference being Coca Cola has a little more disposable income to fight such a lawsuit (unlike say the USPA)...


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 21, 2008, 9:02 AM
Post #268 of 541 (986 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
or better yet what you can say in public? No. Because that would be both illegal and immoral.

Not quite so. If you are in a corporate, social, elected, or religious representative position, the courts have ruled many, many times that the representative has an obligation to present themselves in an above-average manner consistent with the ideals and values of the group. Not related to Roberts Rules or anything else, it's general conduct. As mentioned in a previous post, if you had one BOD member making public comments about another BOD member's business practices, it's likely that one or the other couldn't remain.
However, read the USPA Governance Manual, and you can see in Section 1-6 and 1.8. There is nothing in there that specifies restrictions placed on Board Members and their extracurricular behaviors, so that particular issue is one that may or may not hold water. If the BOD said anything to Jan about quelling the statements/pages, it probably would hold water.

As far as "who is in bed with" Skyride; take the emotion out of that statement and let it stand on its own in concept.
It's well-known that Skydive Dallas accepts Skyride certificates. Does that put them in business with Skyride? I believe it does. I believe Lee should have stepped off the board the moment his business partner sued the USPA. Alternatively, his dropzone should have discontinued the business partnership the moment Skyride sued the USPA.
But I'm not on the BOD to have suggested this. I did write a letter to the EC saying this, however


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 21, 2008, 9:11 AM
Post #269 of 541 (971 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

>DO they tell you who to vote for, what hobbies you can have, what you
>can read, or view, or better yet what you can say in public?

Yes. Once you reach a level within an organization (generally director or above) where you are considered one of the policy-makers of the organization, you can be required to not make statements about company policy, or to make statements only in line with certain company policies.

For example, were I to speak out on any of the several lawsuits my company has going on, and I supported the other party, I would expect to be at least talked to, if not fired. It's in my employment agreement.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 21, 2008, 9:30 AM
Post #270 of 541 (948 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's well-known that Skydive Dallas accepts Skyride certificates. Does that put them in business with Skyride? I believe it does. I believe Lee should have stepped off the board the moment his business partner sued the USPA. Alternatively, his dropzone should have discontinued the business partnership the moment Skyride sued the USPA.

Which do you think would have hurt the USPA`s case worse if it went before a Jury?

a) An Elected official with absolutely no conflicting business interests maintaining a website that Documents FACTUAL information about unethical and fraudulent business practices within Skydiving.

b) A member of the Executive Committee of the USPA directly supporting the business they kicked out and continued to support them after they were kicked out and still continued to support them after they filed suit.

On the one hand you have an elected official publicly documenting the reasons Skyride should be thrown out. Then you have another senior official still doing business with them. Talk about sending a confusing message to a Jury and really hurting your case.

I think option b would have looked MUCH worse to a jury if this case would have made it to trial.


(This post was edited by Thanatos340 on Jan 21, 2008, 9:33 AM)


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 21, 2008, 9:34 AM
Post #271 of 541 (931 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You would actually need to look at the state laws of the state that the non-profit charter for the USPA was drawn up in to identify this information.

That would be a very good resource, thank you.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 21, 2008, 9:39 AM
Post #272 of 541 (920 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Can't agree with you there, Jay. If anything, Lee's continued position on the board demonstrates a willingness on the part of the USPA to attempt to be fair.
Jan is a decision-maker, industry leader in a "corporate" position whose statements carry great weight both within the skydiving industry and outside industry simply by the position which she holds.

IMO, the elected official does not have the right to publically document anything when there is litigation involved. Ever. If it is felt the public needs to know what is going on behind closed doors, then the elected official owes it to the board to step down.
Facts are only what you make of them.

Fact One-Skyride is unethical, commits fraud on a regular basis, and is an organization filled with scumbags and cheats.
Fact Two-Fact One doesn't impact how the USPA represents the skydiving world. USPA doesn't regulate commerce.

I don't believe that Lee's continued presence on the board would make an iota of difference to a jury or judge. I just happen to feel that his remaining on the board is an unethical position on his part. I don't know Lee, so only see this in black and white.
Since you feel the board won't vote to impeach and remove, it seems this argument is now moot.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 9:50 AM
Post #273 of 541 (896 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You wouldn't get fired if Coca Cola went to bat and proved it was true in court.

I seriously doubt that.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 9:59 AM
Post #274 of 541 (878 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Fact One-Skyride is unethical, commits fraud on a regular basis, and is an organization filled with scumbags and cheats.
Fact Two-Fact One doesn't impact how the USPA represents the skydiving world. USPA doesn't regulate commerce.

This is KEY!

Fact 3 - Someone on the BOD used the influence of their position for the means of negatively affecting the commerce of the members of it's own organization. (JUDGE, JURY, EXECUTIONER)

Whether it is morally right or wrong, it is grounds for removal. No organization can be allowed to accept this kind of behaviour from it's executive members.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 21, 2008, 10:06 AM
Post #275 of 541 (870 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Those group members (whether they are scumbags are not) PAY her to represent them

This one statement shows why the group memebership program needs to go and there needs to be a sweeping change on the board.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 21, 2008, 10:08 AM
Post #276 of 541 (1574 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Fact One-Skyride is unethical, commits fraud on a regular basis, and is an organization filled with scumbags and cheats.
Fact Two-Fact One doesn't impact how the USPA represents the skydiving world. USPA doesn't regulate commerce.


Then we clean out the board, get rid of the group member program and vote Jan back in.

This is KEY!

Fact 3 - Someone on the BOD used the influence of their position for the means of negatively affecting the commerce of the members of it's own organization. (JUDGE, JURY, EXECUTIONER)

Whether it is morally right or wrong, it is grounds for removal. No organization can be allowed to accept this kind of behaviour from it's executive members.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 21, 2008, 10:29 AM
Post #277 of 541 (1560 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Whether it is morally right or wrong, it is grounds for removal. No organization can be allowed to accept this kind of behaviour from it's executive members.

If something unethical and most likely illegal is going on and an elected official has knowledge of it and does NOT do anything then you can get into REAL trouble.

Exposing Fraud going within the organization that someone is elected to represent is protected by whistle blower statutes. In fact if the USPA does move forward with this, Jan may have a pretty good case for her own lawsuit.

In reply to:
No organization can be allowed to accept this kind of behaviour from it's executive members.

No organization should sit by while the members of its executive committee are knowingly doing business with an organization KNOWN to defraud the general public.


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 21, 2008, 12:14 PM
Post #278 of 541 (1477 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Those group members (...) PAY her to represent them.

I'm sorry, I missed this earlier, and when someone quoted it later I picked up on it.

Are you saying you think USPA BOD members are paid? ...that it is a paid position?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 21, 2008, 12:16 PM
Post #279 of 541 (1474 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Whether it is morally right or wrong, it is grounds for removal. No organization can be allowed to accept this kind of behaviour from it's executive members.

If something unethical and most likely illegal is going on and an elected official has knowledge of it and does NOT do anything then you can get into REAL trouble.

Exposing Fraud going within the organization that someone is elected to represent is protected by whistle blower statutes. In fact if the USPA does move forward with this, Jan may have a pretty good case for her own lawsuit.

This is bordering on ridiculous. There is no fraud taking place within the USPA. Whether there is or isn't fraud taking place within Skyride (we both believe there is) isn't the USPA's place, it's the State of Georgia's place, and they've undertaken action. Until Georgia wins or loses their case, it's not for USPA to comment upon.

In any event, the BOD is aware of whatever their responsibilities are to the membership, and their misguided expulsion of the Skyride DZ's is what got them into this situation in the first place. Having a board member be a maverick isn't in the best interests of the BOD, the members of the USPA, nor the industry. Having met *most* of the BOD at either PIA or other events, I think *most* of them are very decent, honest, dedicated people.

The bottom line is that during and following the litigious process, Jan made public postings and then made derogatory postings about the USPA an Skyride after receiving notice from the USPA legal team. This is not in dispute by anyone that I'm aware of. If it is, then use the SEARCH tool as I did a few days back. In a corporate setting, that would be (typically) grounds for termination. C'mon J, you know this stuff!

It is absolutely absurd to think that Jan was exposing corruption within the USPA BOD. Jan may be pissed about the outcome of a legal situation the USPA should never have found themselves in, but on the whole, BOD responsibility is to the organization's members. It's debatable whether the majority of the members of the USPA give a shit about the lawsuit, so long as the USPA continues to serve the general and legal needs of the skydiving community. If you're looking to DZ.com as a representative group of the entire USPA...then your basis is extremely flawed. If you really believe Jan has an "extremely good case for a lawsuit" then offer up the cash. I don't believe any board member would have any grounds for legal action if they're removed from the board by a vote based upon preponderance of viable evidence or not. It's an industry organization.

Quote:
No organization should sit by while the members of its executive committee are knowingly doing business with an organization KNOWN to defraud the general public.

Have they been yet convicted of fraud? Have they yet had their business license revoked by the State of Georgia? No. Therefore, they are not "known" to be anything but another skydive business. They're believed to perpetrate fraud, most intelligent/rational people know they commit fraud, but no judicial body has yet found that they do. Therefore the USPA cannot judge them as such either, and cannot/should not take any action against them as a group, until a judicial body decides otherwise. And at this point, they can't do much to them if it is ever determined Skyride is a fraudulent business.


auburnguy

Jan 21, 2008, 1:33 PM
Post #280 of 541 (1402 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it against DZ.com policy to start a thread naming the people in bed with skyride and those taking actions that are detrimental to the sport? If it is I will personally start up a website naming the people responsible for these actions.


(This post was edited by auburnguy on Jan 21, 2008, 1:41 PM)


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 21, 2008, 1:37 PM
Post #281 of 541 (1410 views)
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Re: [peek] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Those group members (...) PAY her to represent them.

I'm sorry, I missed this earlier, and when someone quoted it later I picked up on it.

Are you saying you think USPA BOD members are paid? ...that it is a paid position?

I don't know if it is paid position or not.. but the group members pay for the organization to represent them. The BOD works for said organization. That's what I meant.

I'm not saying that the BOD should sit idly (sp?) by whilst one of it's members goes on to commit fraud.

For one if its directors to go on their own and publicly try to destroy the reputation of that member (which were doing a good job of it themselves already, but beside the point) before they have been convicted of anything.. especially while there are lawsuits pending, is extremely bad form.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 21, 2008, 1:57 PM
Post #282 of 541 (1383 views)
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Re: [auburnguy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nope, you can post anything you want that does not violate the rules of the forums but you are responcible for the content of your posts.

If you look around there was a list of DZ's that Skyride works with posted at one point.


auburnguy

Jan 21, 2008, 2:05 PM
Post #283 of 541 (1374 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Im not looking for a list of DZ's, I want specific individual names, the DZO's of those dz's, the USPA exec members who let skyride in, the USPA board members who are in with skyride and want jan impeached. I want NAMES. Ben and carey are a good start. PM me with names if you dont want to post them here.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 21, 2008, 2:21 PM
Post #284 of 541 (1342 views)
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Re: [auburnguy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

>the USPA board members who are in with skyride and want jan impeached.

Keep in mind that there may well people who are very much against Skyride, _and_ want to impeach the person that helped Skyride win the suit.

I like Jan, but her actions may have given Skyride ammunition in the USPA lawsuit. If your list is to be a list of people who have helped/supported Skyride, her name would seem to be a good choice.

(edited to be clearer about the uncertainties involved)


(This post was edited by billvon on Jan 21, 2008, 3:34 PM)


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jan 21, 2008, 4:38 PM
Post #285 of 541 (1251 views)
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Re: [billvon] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Bill,

I got an email that said Glenn Bangs put in on the agenda.

Maybe true/ maybe not. I have no other info.

JerryBaumchen


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 21, 2008, 9:41 PM
Post #286 of 541 (1123 views)
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Re: [billvon] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I like Jan, but her actions may have given Skyride ammunition in the USPA lawsuit If your list is to be a list of people who have helped/supported Skyride, her name would seem to be a good choice.

http://MakeItHappen.com/...eview/cedartown.html

http://funjumper.com/skyride/

Well I don't know her, she maybe the biggest rage'n bitch on the planet for all I know, however I find it somewhat chicken shit (read cowardly) that the FULL BOD was all on board with the "public service announcement" and even stated in print October 2004 Parachutist Capitol Commentary the views of the USPA on the skyride scam.

After more review of the websites owned and made up by Jan, she has done a good job of pointing out and backing up the facts of how misleading and fake websites are set up to "fool the public", we all know the the real deal here! As a member of USPA in good standing for over 15 years, I find that she is just the type of person we need on the bod, even if she is a rage'n bitch, or not! I would much rather have someone to take a stand on fake ripoff con artist, then a long standing member of the "GK good old boy" network who sends out a bullshit investigator to look into membership complaints and remain the only one who's "privy" to the written report (I see a track record here) and then because he didn't like what the report said, it was destroyed and that "big midwest investigation" (an all expense paid skydive vacation for one Mr. Tom Welgos to skydive with his old army buddies and kiss ass on behalf of Mr. Bangs to a few DZO's) was paid for out of "our" dues. And people wonder why the GM DZ inspection didn't work. (It's called the lack of honesty with in the BOD & HQ with the long term names for the last 20 years!)

You know as one of the persons named in the report that Mr.Bangs choose to destroy and not produce for the membership to see, (and the membership had a right to know) after wasting their money. I can tell you as a member in good standing of the USPA, that it's a good thing that Mr. Bangs didn't release the "false report" because myself and the other named parties would have sued the living shit out of the USPA and I would still do so today in a heart beat, if I could get a copy of what "was reported". I would also support Jan in doing the same if need be.

Mr Bangs has a history of being a self centered fuck nut who will jump right on board the bandwagon as long as it's stroking his ego and those of his buddies and for gods sake good thing we've had to put up with all his bullshit all these years because we'd all still be jumping rocks. His has proven beyond a shadow of doubt to many of us he will stab you in the back as you walk away, if he don't like what you have to say about his buddy, regardless of the truth and he will do his best to sweep it under the rug and keep it "under wraps" unless there is a good person to hang out. IMHO!

The EC, Bangs, Stokes, Butcher, Doc Lee, Mr.Smith, & Worth now need an escape route, I mean the official stance in Oct. 04 was no more out of line then Jan's website, hell those sites live in cyberspace and didn't get mailed to 25 thousand people to read, you have to go look for it!

All of the names above On the EC have an agenda, well maybe not Scott, IDK, the rest of them all have an agenda. Do I know what those agendas are? No I don't, but I bet,

Stokes, well that is an easy one.

Doc Lee who the fuck knows, but I bet it's an upper crust ego stroke and keeping those skyride dollars rolling in to his bank account, other wise he would have dropped them or stepped down.

Mr. Smith, don't know shit about him, so I can't say.

Worth, anything that keeps him looking good in the "hollywood spotlight" and as Mr. World record L.O. guy is good for his pocketbook and ego and there for good for skydiving.

Bangs, who the fuck really knows, pretty sure I've covered my thoughts of him in detail.

Ms. Butcher, well another DZO and that is a agenda all on it's own. I really don't know what make out of her interest in serving "US", I have known her for a number of years in passing and she has always seemed to be by the book. However the way she came to office has a direct tie to the "midwest report" Bangs destroyed and she was given the RD seat when the crooked RD the membership turned in, was proven to be a fake and a fraud and "puppet" for one regional dzo. So she was put in the seat, the same as we will now have a new replacement for one Kip Lowmiller now that he has done the right thing stepped down and a person will need to be found to fill his seat.

One can only guess as to who Mr. Bangs & Stokes will be pulling for along with Ms. butcher, all of whom clearly supported Mr. Lowmiller and now have egg on their face.

The rest of the BOD,

Mr. Hills agenda is how to keep his world class dz a "hole in the fence" operation and keeping the city off his back and making Skyride go away and keeping the nationals coming back to his DZ.

Mike Mullins, Not sure his agenda other flying his KA, I like him and I voted for him each time, he has always been good to me, however he is a DZO and that is the one strike.

I don't know and can't say much about the others, other then they have been on board awhile now along with Farrington, Laughlin, Goswiz DeSantis, and one of them is a DZO.

Peek, I never met with, but I have talked with him a number of times, he seem to be above board and by the book, I consider him one of the good ones.

The freshman BOD members I have no problem with (not counting Kip) over all, but they are RD's so that has little impact on me over all. One of the good ones has expressed to me he will not seek the seat again and may not fill out the term due to being sick of the bullshit and the bullshitters, and thats the southeast region's memberships loss.

It is long past time that the USPA get back to being about skydivers, all skydivers! Not just the ex-military whoopee doos and team bullshit coupled with the interest of the DZO's sitting on the BOD, just look at all of them. 6 out of 22 seats and 3 of those in the big seats.

Hill-DZO
Mullins-DZO
Butcher-DZO
Spillers-DZO
Farrington-DZO
Doc Lee-DZO

When you take the time to look at the info contained in the sites by Jan it is clear that it was put out with as much known documentation and facts and yes even copies the fake websites and photos. Kicking her off because they folded is wrong IMO. Now kicking out all of them and starting over fresh with a new set of people who make NO MONEY at all from jumping and own NO DZ's or Companies that do business in the skydiving industry, would be the best for all.

Regardless of how any of you feel about Jan's actions in regards to skyride scam and her posts and websites, she has really done very little to hurt USPA when compared to the damage that letting back in the scumbags of Cary & Ben will do in the long run. It sould be quite clear to the masses that it is way past time for a major change from the top down and even tho I like and have voted and would still support some of those DZO's as friends, I can no longer support them as an elected BOD member and I will be voting for all new ND's in a sweep and hope many of you do the same. If it's time for Jan to go, then it's time for all of them to GO!

Then again as my wife said when talking about all this, "What difference dose it make, USPA is a joke, anyway!" See ya @ the polls........CrazyWink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 21, 2008, 9:56 PM
Post #287 of 541 (1107 views)
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Re: [stratostar] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Well I don't know her, she maybe the biggest rage'n bitch on the planet for all I know . . .

I do know her pretty well, and she's not a "rage'n bitch" as you so tactfully put it.

>I would much rather have someone to take a stand on fake ripoff con artist . . .

So would I, and would prefer that person over someone who helps ripoff artists win lawsuits against USPA. I think Jan was well intentioned, but did exactly the wrong thing with her posts mocking and attacking Skyride.

In other words, I'd prefer someone who can help get an organization like Skyride shut down over someone who talks a good game but ends up helping them.

As usual, I'd encourage people to call their regional directors and show up at the next meeting to get a better view of the issue and to make your opinion known.


auburnguy

Jan 21, 2008, 11:55 PM
Post #288 of 541 (1066 views)
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Re: [billvon] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am currently compiling a list of all of the senior members of the USPA. Names and the persons contribution and or affiliation with any and all skydiving related companies will be listed. This is being done for the full BOD and Executive Committee. If you have any info you wish to contribute send me a message.


auburnguy

Jan 22, 2008, 12:09 AM
Post #289 of 541 (1063 views)
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Re: [auburnguy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Executive committie is as follows.
Vice President: Jay Stokes
Secretary: Sherry Butcher
Treasurer: Lee Schlichtemeier
Member at Large: Scott Smith
Chairman of the Board: BJ Worth

Any and Everything people know about these people and their affiliations with everyone would be extremely helpful. Message me if you have something.


Frenchy68  (A License)

Jan 22, 2008, 12:15 AM
Post #290 of 541 (1061 views)
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Re: [auburnguy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The Executive committie is as follows.
Vice President: Jay Stokes
Secretary: Sherry Butcher
Treasurer: Lee Schlichtemeier
Member at Large: Scott Smith
Chairman of the Board: BJ Worth

Any and Everything people know about these people and their affiliations with everyone would be extremely helpful. Message me if you have something.
Purpose being?


auburnguy

Jan 22, 2008, 12:31 AM
Post #291 of 541 (1059 views)
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Re: [Frenchy68] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Potential conflicts of interest, to identify and make it known to everyone in the skydiving community who they are. In general trying to identify and isolate those people from the rest of the community.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 22, 2008, 4:10 AM
Post #292 of 541 (1033 views)
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Re: [stratostar] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why does being a DZO make someone bad for the BOD?

Being a DZO that accepts Skyride tickets, and helps to keep them going by using their pull in the USPA... that's a different story all together.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 22, 2008, 5:03 AM
Post #293 of 541 (1015 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure if anyone saw this or really even cares but the agenda was updated on the 18th. The action item is now:

8. New Business
A. Recommendation of the Executive Committee in the Matter of the Removal of Jan Meyer for Just Cause.


bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Jan 22, 2008, 5:12 AM
Post #294 of 541 (1009 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

is that part of the meeting open to the average joe or jill skydiver?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 22, 2008, 5:20 AM
Post #295 of 541 (1005 views)
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Re: [packerboy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why does being a DZO make someone bad for the BOD?

The assertion is that it creates a conflict of interest. Of course, for that to occur, there would have to be some sort of 'struggle' between DZOs and jumpers.

I'm not sure how there could be a 'struggle', as DZs are private enterprises, and nobody is forced to have anything to do with any of them. If you don't like a DZ or DZO, you just don't go there, it's just like dry cleaners, pizza shops or grocery stores.

The truth is that DZOs make for great RDs or BOD members because there are not that many people who can afford the time and expense that those positions require.

Being on the BOD means donating your time to USPA business, and spending your own money to travel to the meetings.

The real problem is finding people to fill the seats. It's common for the elections to have only one or even no cadidates in some regions. Lets exclude DZOs from the next election, and see what were left with.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Jan 22, 2008, 5:21 AM)


bozo  (D 10154)

Jan 22, 2008, 6:17 AM
Post #296 of 541 (970 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

[reply Lets exclude DZOs from the next election, and see what were left with.


Sometimes nothing is better than something.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 22, 2008, 6:51 AM
Post #297 of 541 (947 views)
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Re: [bozo] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Sometimes nothing is better than something.

What's the main concern with DZOs being on the BOD? They clearly have an interest in seeing skydiving survive, more of an interest than another person who does not feed their family via skydiving. What would they be doing to threaten their livelyhood?

In terms of the Skyride situation, it may be true that some of the DZOs on the BOD accpet Skyride certs at their DZ. Let's keep in mind that in the beginning, Skyride seemed like a great idea. Signing up in the early days cannot be held against anyone.

Staying with Skyride? That might be a shitty thing to do, but due to the way that Skyride operates, a DZO stands to lose a good piece of business by cutting their ties with them. Maybe even enough to risk the financial health of their DZ all together.

I know of some DZ that accpet Skyride, and it's a solid third of their business. If any one of these DZ were to lose a third of their business, they would have to close up shop.

Lets keep in mind that Skyride doesn't bring new business into skydiving, they just intercept the existing business that is seeking a DZ in their area. Skyride is, in effect, taking control of a portion of the customer base, the same customer base these DZ pulled from before Skyride came along. If they were to drop Skyride, they would lose this portion of their customer base.

It's my understading that DZOs who do business with Skyride excused themselves during that portion of the BOD meetings. What more can you expect?

Let's keep in mind that the BOD positions are not paying gigs. You're already getting their time and money (for travel) for free, do you really expect them to risk their livelyhood by dropping 1/3 of their tandem business?

To that end, do you really think that they are happy with Skyride? With the crooks they turned out to be after these people 'got into bed' with them? Do you think these DZOs are happy about paying a 20% commision to Skyride, when they expected Skyride would be bringing new business in, only to find that Skyride was simply intercepting the customers already looking for a local DZ?

Lets get real people. None of these people on the BOD are independently wealthy, none of them are looking to, or even able to, make great personal gains via the USPA.

Does anyone really think that any of these people sat down five years ago, and mapped out thier rise to power? These are people who cared about skydivign enough to make it their livelyhood for one, and then went the next step to offer their time and money to help run the USPA.

Finally, in terms of the things they do that appear to be geared toward making DZOs more money, good for them. We need the DZOs to make as much money as possible. I, for one, love jumping out of a million dollar aircraft, but I'm not crazy about the idea of acutally paying 1/20 the cost every time I go up. It's all the other money the DZ makes, that allows me to buy a slot for $20-something all day long.


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 22, 2008, 7:08 AM
Post #298 of 541 (924 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The assertion is that it creates a conflict of interest.

There usually is a conflict of interest. A number of BOD members are quite good about not letting this affect their decision making, but the conflict of interest still exists.

In reply to:
The real problem is finding people to fill the seats. It's common for the elections to have only one or even no candidates in some regions. Lets exclude DZOs from the next election, and see what were left with.

There would probably be many more candidates, because members would know that they do not need to compete with another candidate that is an incumbent, already well known (from a skydiving related business perhaps), has a turbine aircraft to fly around to various drop zones, or whose face is seen in USPA publications.

It would be no problem finding people to fill the seats if DZO's were excluded.

Unless the average member has a lot of time and money to run for the position to prove a point or to raise awareness of an issue, they normally will not run if they don't think they have a chance.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 22, 2008, 7:19 AM
Post #299 of 541 (916 views)
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Re: [peek] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Unless the average member has a lot of time and money to run for the position to prove a point or to raise awareness of an issue, they normally will not run if they don't think they have a chance.

I think even if the seats were just offered, no election required, I'm not sure how many people would have the time and money to donate towards doing the job properly.

Especially with the internet, running for a seat is easier than ever. You can get easily get your platform known to a large number of people.

Critisizm of the BOD is nothing new to the internet. Rec. and DZ.com have always had their share of anti-BOD chatter going on. Despite this, the make up of the candidates has changed very little.

These are still elections, and still won by the majority. We all know the turn out is always dismal, and a well run internet campaign could easily reach enough people to make the difference. For christ sake, this thread in itself is a great indicator of the power the web can have in terms of getting a message out, and this is just a general posting. Imagine the damage a cadidiate could do with a well organized and focused effort.

Wth all this, we still see the same type of candidate, year in and year out.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 22, 2008, 7:33 AM
Post #300 of 541 (892 views)
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Re: [peek] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It would be no problem finding people to fill the seats if DZO's were excluded.

I completely disagree....If that was the case we would not see regions with ZERO people running for RD.


(This post was edited by divnswoop on Jan 22, 2008, 7:42 AM)


Frenchy68  (A License)

Jan 22, 2008, 7:38 AM
Post #301 of 541 (1342 views)
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Re: [auburnguy] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Potential conflicts of interest, to identify and make it known to everyone in the skydiving community who they are. In general trying to identify and isolate those people from the rest of the community.
The best way to make sure there are no conflict of interest would be to have non-skydivers as board members. That won't happen, therefore conflict of interest will remain.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 22, 2008, 7:41 AM
Post #302 of 541 (1339 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It would be no problem finding people to fill the seats if DZO's were excluded.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I completely disagree....If that was the case we would not see regions with ZERO people running for RD.


Hey Swoop, I'm not sure how you got that quote connected with my name, by those are Peek's words, not mine. I agree with you, and my quote on the subject is as follows -

Quote:
The real problem is finding people to fill the seats. It's common for the elections to have only one or even no cadidates in some regions. Lets exclude DZOs from the next election, and see what were left with.


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 22, 2008, 8:18 AM
Post #303 of 541 (1293 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...If that was the case we would not see regions with ZERO people running for RD.

Do you know why that is? There have been several cases where it was well known that the incumbent (in at least one case a DZO) planned to run again, (and was likely the only one running) but the incumbent did not send in their election materials on time as required by the election process.

The result: No one on the ballot!

But a person who might be thinking of running would not know that the DZO/incumbent/etc. was going to make that mistake, so they would not run.

Another wrinkle to this is, that if an incumbent knew that someone else was going to run against them, that they would probably pay more attention to those deadlines and not make that mistake, resulting in the same situation.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 22, 2008, 8:19 AM
Post #304 of 541 (1290 views)
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Re: Discussion to remove Jan Meyer [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

There would probably be many more candidates, because members would know that they do not need to compete with another candidate that is an incumbent, already well known (from a skydiving related business perhaps), has a turbine aircraft to fly around to various drop zones, or whose face is seen in USPA publications.

It would be no problem finding people to fill the seats if DZO's were excluded.

Unless the average member has a lot of time and money to run for the position to prove a point or to raise awareness of an issue, they normally will not run if they don't think they have a chance.

I dunno if I can agree with this statement, Gary. I'm OK for money and can manage the time. But I won't/can't for office for a number of reasons;

~too new to the sport, I've seen how people with minimal time are treated and/or spoken about

~Not part of the 'good ole boy' network, and don't care to be.

~not former nor retired military

~my current RD does a very fine job, both in keeping my region informed and responding to queries.

~and of course your last, I don't think I'd stand a chance of being elected due to all of the above combined.

Last year, there were regions with no one running. In some regions, very few people bothered to vote. Folks generally genuinely don't care about the politics of any administration so long as the trains run on time and taxes aren't out of line, whether it's the USPA, NBA, or USA.

There will *always* be conflicts of interest. I submit conflicts of interest are good ingredients when managed properly. Conflicts of interest/personal agendas are why people run for board positions. Candidates often have issues with how policy functions, so they run for office with the intent of changing those policies. This is a conflict of interest too, but it's a motivational factor.
Why did you run for office?
I'll wager that in no small part, it was because you haev a passion and love for the sport, but you also feel/felt that some changes needed to be made within the representation/administration of the sport, and you wanted to make a change that you believe is for the better, no?
FWIW, I think it's an admirable motivation. But not kept in check by board members and/or constituents, it can become a misguided motivation.


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Jan 22, 2008, 9:09 AM
Post #305 of 541 (1248 views)
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Re: [davelepka] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


Lets keep in mind that Skyride doesn't bring new business into skydiving, they just intercept the existing business that is seeking a DZ in their area. Skyride is, in effect, taking control of a portion of the customer base, the same customer base these DZ pulled from before Skyride came along. If they were to drop Skyride, they would lose this portion of their customer base.

Let's keep in mind that the BOD positions are not paying gigs. You're already getting their time and money (for travel) for free, do you really expect them to risk their livelyhood by dropping 1/3 of their tandem business?

To that end, do you really think that they are happy with Skyride? With the crooks they turned out to be after these people 'got into bed' with them? Do you think these DZOs are happy about paying a 20% commision to Skyride, when they expected Skyride would be bringing new business in, only to find that Skyride was simply intercepting the customers already looking for a local DZ?

I think you answered your own question. DZO's would not lose 1/3 of their business if Skyride went bye-bye. Those same good customers would find the closest DZ to their location the way they always -used- to do. Honestly, through the yellow pages, internet (DZ's OWN listing), or word of mouth.

ltdiver


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 22, 2008, 9:18 AM
Post #306 of 541 (1231 views)
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Re: [ltdiver] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

They would not lose 1/3 of the business, they would have that 1/3 routed to another dropzone instead until they are able to out advertise and place themselves in a better position for the consumer to find them then Skyride does.


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Jan 22, 2008, 9:23 AM
Post #307 of 541 (1225 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They would not lose 1/3 of the business, they would have that 1/3 routed to another dropzone instead until they are able to out advertise and place themselves in a better position for the consumer to find them then Skyride does.

*Gasp!* Shocked You mean customers would find their -nearest- DZ and save travel time and headaches? Imagine that! Crazy "Local Businesses Prosper"--Film at 11. Unimpressed

ltdiver


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 22, 2008, 9:34 AM
Post #308 of 541 (1208 views)
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Re: [ltdiver] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I did notince a small change in the General Membership Meeting Agenga from something a little bit specific to the more generalized:

10. Open discussion forum from the membership
1. Discuss elimination of Petitions for RD candidates
2. Requirements to change the Constitution and By-laws


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 22, 2008, 9:39 AM
Post #309 of 541 (1195 views)
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Re: [peek] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote:
Do you know why that is? There have been several cases where it was well known that the incumbent (in at least one case a DZO) planned to run again, (and was likely the only one running) but the incumbent did not send in their election materials on time as required by the election process.

The result: No one on the ballot!
So your saying two things here.
1. Our RD's don't know anything about their position/ how to re-run for their position.(which I know to be true also)
2. "ALL" those non-DZO people who want to run for RD won't bother unless they know they are a shoe in.
BS! They are not out there


(This post was edited by divnswoop on Jan 22, 2008, 9:40 AM)


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 22, 2008, 9:50 AM
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Quote:
10. Open discussion forum from the membership
1. Discuss elimination of Petitions for RD candidates
2. Requirements to change the Constitution and By-laws

To all those attending I suggest:
1. Completely read the Skyride lawsuit against USPA.
2. Read a little about Anti-trust lawsuits.
3. Understand how BOD's and EC's work.
4. Come with something other than, "she is my friend and you guys are crooks."

Like I said in previous posts, I think Jan was good for the common jumper. Maybe her hardheaded skydiver approach of "I do what I want to do" was not the best stance for a BOD member.


peek  (D 8884)

Jan 22, 2008, 9:51 AM
Post #311 of 541 (1170 views)
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In reply to:
So your saying two things here.

Well, those are not the things that I'm saying, but I'm not even going to re-quote them. And I'm going to stop now because this is distracting from the original post.

So, Shawn, do you support Jan Meyer's efforts or not?


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 22, 2008, 9:58 AM
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Re: [peek] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:

Well, those are not the things that I'm saying, but I'm not even going to re-quote them.

So, Shawn, do you support Jan Meyer's efforts or not?

Without re-quoting my previous 12 posts. Yes, she was a good voice for the common jumper. Yes, she was out of line for a USPA board member and Anti-trust lawsuits were a direct result of her words.


JohnRich  (D License)

Jan 22, 2008, 10:00 AM
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In reply to:
Doc Lee who the fuck knows, but I bet it's an upper crust ego stroke and keeping those skyride dollars rolling in to his bank account...

The lynch mob is growing in frenzy...

Dr. Lee Schlichtemeier is a respected Doctor of radiation oncology. If you have cancer, he's a go-to guy to save your life. I'm sure that he makes enough money from his well-established medical practice that he doesn't need to be "unethical" to get Skyride money for his DZ. I think he runs a DZ as a sideline because he loves skydiving, not because he needs the money. In fact he incurs a lot of hassle and financial risk doing so, for the benefit of jumpers in his area.

I would like to see some self-restraint practiced on these kind of subjective unfounded attacks on our fellow members.


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Jan 22, 2008, 10:18 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 22, 2008, 10:20 AM
Post #314 of 541 (1113 views)
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In reply to:
Like I said in previous posts, I think Jan was good for the common jumper. Maybe her hardheaded skydiver approach of "I do what I want to do" was not the best stance for a BOD member.

I would like to add my $0.02 to this...Jan speaks up for us peons and that's good. Apparently, the way it's done is more counter-productive and the message gets lost. Tact and diplomacy are good things.

I do understand that with some people tact and diplomacy goes right over their heads and a more direct approach is required. Some respond to that and others don't respond no matter what you say or how you put it. So what do you do? Get some people in there that are willing to respond and work together.

Kingdoms don't usually produce good results in the long run.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 22, 2008, 10:26 AM
Post #315 of 541 (1103 views)
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In reply to:
The fact is, he runs a DZ as a sideline because he loves skydiving, not because he needs the money.

Then why does he choose to deal with an entity like Skyride If he doesn’t need/want the money?

why did he continue to be a business associate of Skyrides when the USPA BOD kicked them out for unethical business practices?

Why did he continue to remain a business associate while sitting on the Board and as a member of the executive committee while that very same entity had pending litigation against the USPA?


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 22, 2008, 10:49 AM
Post #316 of 541 (1090 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes, she was a good voice for the common jumper. Yes, she was out of line for a USPA board member and Anti-trust lawsuits were a direct result of her words.

The fact that the USPA has a GM program could also be argued as the reason the USPA Had to settle.

The Fact that the BOD Voted them out (a GROUP Effort) could be argued as the reason.

The Fact that there was a sitting member of the executive committee still in business with Skyride Before, during and AFTER they were kicked out could be argued as a reason.

The fact that Insurance companies always want settle lawsuits could be argued as the reason we had to settle.

The Anti-Trust Lawsuit was coming no matter what she said or did because the USPA had a GM program. To say that Jan is the only reason the USPA was sued I think gives her a little too much credit.


Now we have been forced to accept Skyride and thier DZ`s back into the USPA, Do we also now adopt their cut throat Machiavellian ethics and kick out the one person that was trying to do the right thing?

Sorry but two wrong do make a right.

This idea that we lost (We didnt, We settled) so someone must hang for it is bullshit. And the fact that the person they are hanging out to dry for this is the one person that did the most to help the cause to begin with.

The ENTIRE Board had a chance to vote on this action. I would say that they ALL share responsibility for the outcome of that action but in reality the only ones that were really privy to anything going on with this lawsuit was the Executive Committee.

The Executive Committee has issues such as direct conflicting business interest and possibly personal vendetta against Jan.

Another question that I hope the USPA will clarify soon. Who do they represent?
The DZO`s?
The Skydiver`s?
The Manufacturers??
The Group Members??


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 22, 2008, 11:28 AM
Post #317 of 541 (1048 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

J, we continue to agree that there could be seveal contributing factors to the the lawsuit. I have never said Jan was the 100% reason. Many of the things you talk about, I have no hard proof cause I didn't see the settlement. I did however see what Jan has said and I was replying to the questions peek had asked.


(This post was edited by divnswoop on Jan 22, 2008, 11:30 AM)


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 22, 2008, 11:44 AM
Post #318 of 541 (1023 views)
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In reply to:
we continue to agree that there could be seveal contributing factors to the the lawsuit. I have never said Jan was the 100% reason.

If I can get no other point across but that one, that is a good start.

Those screaming, We lost, Jan has to go!! need to realize there was MUCH more to this than just one person actions.

I think this entire mess was mishandled by the Board, By Jan, By the Executive Committee and especially by the Lawyers.

ALL share responsibility and to try focus the entire blame as some are doing on one person is wrong.


lauraliscious  (C 35895)

Jan 22, 2008, 11:56 AM
Post #319 of 541 (1005 views)
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In reply to:
Not sure if anyone saw this or really even cares but the agenda was updated on the 18th. The action item is now:

8. New Business
A. Recommendation of the Executive Committee in the Matter of the Removal of Jan Meyer for Just Cause.

Nice catch, Phree. I hadn't been checking the USPA website for updates. Does anyone know what that means? Can they remove Jan for Just Cause without going through the impeachment process and therefore without having 2/3rds of the BOD's vote?

I plan to read everything relevant that I can prior to going to Orlando. Including the list divnswoop mentioned, as well as the USPA Governance Manual. The meetings should be interesting, at any rate.

And for the record, I did vote in the last election. I probably wasn't as informed as I could have been (and plan to be next time), but at least I did vote.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 22, 2008, 12:06 PM
Post #320 of 541 (997 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

>The DZO`s?
>The Skydiver`s?
>The Manufacturers??
>The Group Members??

All of the above. Without DZO's and manufacturers there would BE no skydiving - and in most cases, the DZO's and manufacturers are members as well. They have as much right to ask for changes to USPA's policies as you do.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Jan 22, 2008, 12:56 PM
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Re: [PhreeZone] USPA - Jan Meyers Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not sure if anyone saw this or really even cares but the agenda was updated on the 18th. The action item is now:

8. New Business
A. Recommendation of the Executive Committee in the Matter of the Removal of Jan Meyer for Just Cause.

Just saw that too, but Phree beat me too it, posting that this change was made.

It will be interesting to see if the "minutes" that come out post-next BOD meeting have any real details as to what they mean by "just cause".


(This post was edited by ZigZagMarquis on Jan 22, 2008, 12:57 PM)


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 22, 2008, 1:00 PM
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
we continue to agree that there could be seveal contributing factors to the the lawsuit. I have never said Jan was the 100% reason.

If I can get no other point across but that one, that is a good start.

Those screaming, We lost, Jan has to go!! need to realize there was MUCH more to this than just one person actions.

I think this entire mess was mishandled by the Board, By Jan, By the Executive Committee and especially by the Lawyers.

ALL share responsibility and to try focus the entire blame as some are doing on one person is wrong.
Agreed again. And all the people screaming Jan is our friend leave her alone she did nothing wrong, need to realize that also.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 22, 2008, 1:13 PM
Post #323 of 541 (913 views)
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I think.. and this is a long shot... maybe just a dumb idea...

If everyone screwed up, shouldn't the person who is in charge of the whole f'ing thing also be gone? I mean, isn't he ultimately responsible for the actions of the association as a whole?

BTW the Toronto Maple Leafs finally fired John Ferguson Junior today. Good for them, it's been a long time coming. It was a good move. Maybe now that the top end management is being changed, they will be able to do some good as an organization. Wink


pilotdave  (D License)

Jan 22, 2008, 1:16 PM
Post #324 of 541 (911 views)
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We don't know why they want to get rid of her yet, but my guess is that it has little to do with the skyride lawsuit that was settled. I'm guessing it has a lot more to do with what she did after the settlement. She really pissed them off. Seen her avatar picture?

I'm guessing they told her to shut up and she didn't. They were probably afraid that she might open the door to another lawsuit from skyride, so they best end their association with her. I don't know her, but the more crap she pulled, the more I began to like her. It would suck to see her go, but if she does, I hope she stops holding back on the skyride issue and the USPA GM program. I bet she has a few more things to say.

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Jan 22, 2008, 1:16 PM)


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 22, 2008, 1:22 PM
Post #325 of 541 (894 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the update.....


Have you read the lawsuit against UPSA?


turtlespeed

Jan 22, 2008, 1:57 PM
Post #326 of 541 (1553 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Frankly any group of people could start a new org, get the insurance set up, focus more on current DZ/skydiving needs...

In reply to:

No so far fetched?

You mean like Skyride and it's affiliates are trying to do?
Or is it that they (The BOD) are trying to incorporate skyride and the USPA into one business?

One should not be able to use his/her position within an organization, as an elected official, to gain him/herself monetary gain by utilizing the power and influence that that position affords.

If they want to quash the "Conflict of Interest" name they have made for themselves, then disasociate them selves with Skyride until their term is over and they are no longer an elected official. Then - if they still think that Skyride is a moral choice to make - then they can pick up their membership with skyride again.


(This post was edited by turtlespeed on Jan 22, 2008, 2:02 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jan 22, 2008, 2:37 PM
Post #327 of 541 (1512 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The fact that the USPA has a GM program could also be argued as the reason the USPA Had to settle.

The Fact that the BOD Voted them out (a GROUP Effort) could be argued as the reason.

The Fact that there was a sitting member of the executive committee still in business with Skyride Before, during and AFTER they were kicked out could be argued as a reason.

In reply to:
The fact that Insurance companies always want settle lawsuits could be argued as the reason we had to settle.

The insurance company always wants to settle. The BOD could have voted otherwise, apparently they had enough information to do what they felt was best. No one here knows. I'm willing to trus that there was/is no grand conspiracy on the part of the BOD, legal advisers, and insurance company. What evidence do you possess that contraindicates their information or responsibly suggests they should have tossed the dice?

In reply to:
The Anti-Trust Lawsuit was coming no matter what she said or did because the USPA had a GM program.

You can say this with unequivocable authority and honesty? What do you know that we don't?

In reply to:
To say that Jan is the only reason the USPA was sued I think gives her a little too much credit.
Agreed.


Coulda, coulda, coulda. It's all supposition. It could be jsut as easily argued that the entire BOD consumed ganja brownies at that meeting. The only indisputable facts I'm aware of are:

A-BOD erred when they took Skyride out of the organization.

B-Skyride sued, as is their right (anyone can sue anyone).

C-Public statements by policy-makers have been directly cited as an element of evidence in the Skyride suit against USPA. Most of those statements are still available.

Where has anyone said Jan is 100% responsible? That's a strawman's argument.

Demonstrate any public anti-Skyride or USPA statement from another BOD member cited in the lawsuit against USPA (made during or post litigation), and it's possible that others bear equal responsibility and therefore those members of the BOD should be removed as per your comments.

No one is screaming "Jan has to go!" Rather, people are responding that there are issues which are relevant to why it has been proposed that Jan be removed from the board. Those issues are being discussed. Nothing more. Not one person in this thread, save for Gary Peeks, has any a vote in whether Jan is retained or not. We all have influence with our RD's and the EC, but that's where it stops.
Both sides of the issue not only ought to be discussed, both positions should require discussion so that folks might be informed.

You feel it's acceptable that public statements of weight made by a member of the Board of Directors, made during a period of active litigation and post litigation.

Others feel that a member of the board should have used jurisprudence and discretion in makingcomments about the litigation or related parties to the litigation.

My belief, which is probably less informed than most:
~USPA terminated Skyride's membership in the USPA.
~Skyride sued USPA.
~Jan Meyer had/has a lot to say about Skyride. As a BOD member, this may or may not be appropriate, but it does summarily generate a risk for the representative body.
~USPA apparently asked Jan Meyer to not speak about Skyride and USPA. She allegedly continued to do so, and at the least left previous commentary available to the general public and promoted those comments via search engines/bots.
~For whatever reason, Skyride specifically identified those comments as being made by a policy-maker at USPA and addressed those comments as part of their complaint against USPA.
~USPA's legal team, insurance company, and EC voted that it was best to settle the complaint out of court. We'll never absolutely know if this was the right thing to do or not, but we do absolutely know that settling the complaint limited USPA's financial liability, exposure and freed up USPA resources.
~One member of the BOD has requested a discussion on whether Jan Meyer should be permitted to remain as a member of the BOD.

The reasoning seems cut and dried.
The opinion various people may have is going to be derived from what they believe they know or surmise has transpired. Some apparently feel that no matter what the cause may be, "two wrongs make a right." Others may feel that allowing the liability that (may have) existed to continue to exist, is still a liability in perpetuity.

Each person needs to to form their own somewhat-informed opinion and forward that opinion to their Regional Director and the EC so that they might best know how to best represent individual opinions at the next meeting. Otherwise this entire thread is nothing but wasted babble and emotional spew, IMHO.


(This post was edited by DSE on Jan 22, 2008, 3:55 PM)


rushmc  (D License)

Jan 22, 2008, 2:49 PM
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A simple open and honest presentation of the facts and the settlement would end all the speculation as the reasons. The blame game would go on.

I find it hard to stomac that an org such as the USPA could legally withhold this kind of info from the membership.

The lawyers out there, can you help me understand how this is possible?


lauraliscious  (C 35895)

Jan 22, 2008, 3:00 PM
Post #329 of 541 (1478 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
~USPA terminated Skyride's membership in the USPA.
~Skyride sued USPA.

The USPA did not terminate Skyride's membership, because Skyride never had a USPA membership. The USPA terminated the memberships of the individuals who own Skyride and the Group Memberships of the DZ's they also own. Those individuals in turn sued the USPA in the anti-trust lawsuit. If the GM program did not exist in the 1st place, Skyride probably could never have brought an anti-trust lawsuit. As J has stated, in forming the GM program the USPA seems to be acting more as a Trade Organization instead of a non-profit organization.

***Disclaimer: I don't know much about trade organizations and non-profit organizations. I know I am not the most informed person making statements about this topic but I am trying to learn more. DSE, I think your last statement in that post was excellent and I agree whole-heartedly.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 22, 2008, 3:44 PM
Post #330 of 541 (1428 views)
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In reply to:
My belief, which is probably less informed than most:
~USPA terminated Skyride's membership in the USPA.
~Skyride sued USPA.
~Jan Meyer had/has a lot to say about Skyride. As a BOD member, this may or may not be appropriate, but it does summarily generate a risk for the representative body.
~USPA apparently asked Jan Meyer to not speak about Skyride and USPA. She allegedly continued to do so, and at the least left previous commentary available to the general public and promoted those comments via search engines/bots.
~For whatever reason, Skyride specifically identified those comments as being made by a policy-maker at USPA and addressed those comments as part of their complaint against USPA.
~USPA's legal team, insurance company, and BOD voted that it was best to settle the complaint out of court. We'll never absolutely know if this was the right thing to do or not, but we do absolutely know that settling the complaint limited USPA's financial liability, exposure and freed up USPA resources.
~One member of the BOD has requested a discussion on whether Jan Meyer should be permitted to remain as a member of the BOD.

These things out of Order.
Jan Had her Website up and making public anti-skyride posts Long before the BOD voted to remove Skyride and their owners from the organization.
The BOD was fully aware of this when they voted to expel skyride and their owners.

Also I believe that this statement is not true "~USPA's legal team, insurance company, and BOD voted that it was best to settle the complaint out of court." It is my understanding that this matter was handled exclusively by the EXECUTIVE Committee. The BOD NEVER had any say on the settlement. (Thus why I keep bringing up the conflict of interest).


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jan 22, 2008, 4:52 PM
Post #331 of 541 (1372 views)
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In reply to:
It is my understanding that this matter was handled exclusively by the EXECUTIVE Committee. The BOD NEVER had any say on the settlement. (Thus why I keep bringing up the conflict of interest).

One more time for the slow folks.
Lee was excused from the EC vote because of his DZ's policy of accepting Skyride coupons, if my understanding is correct.

The timeline of the webpages and posts in question is moot. They still exist today. They've continued to perpetuate following the settlement. My understanding is that it was asked that they be removed.

I don't understand why you're all so damn fast to tar the EC with a hot brush and a load of feathers.
These are decent people we're discussing here, people who's reputation you're so glibly maligning. I don't know everyone, but I do know Jay, Sherry, and Scott. They're all honorable people. They're all skydivers, just like you and I. They have a vested interest in our sport, just as we all do. You know how much they're paid, right?
Have you ever shaken their hand, jumped with them, broken bread with them? Shared a cup of coffee?
I doubt it, because it's pretty clear that they've been de-humanized by so many of these posts.

Bear in mind, I came into this discussion with one perspective. A few phone calls, an email here and there, and a little research caused me to understand why a proposal has been made. I don't know how it will turn out, but the proposal certainly has just cause.
Lose the "Oh my god, they're booting one of my friends" and look at it objectively, and any moron can see that it's a discussion that needs to take place, regardless of the outcome.


Gary73  (D 21341)

Jan 22, 2008, 5:26 PM
Post #332 of 541 (1347 views)
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Quote:
Have you read the lawsuit against UPSA? - divnswoop

No. Is that available online somewhere? Thanks.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 22, 2008, 6:12 PM
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Re: [Gary73] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Does anyone have a file share space I can upload all the publicly available documents to?

They are all too big attach.

I especially want EVERYONE to read the Judges one and only ruling in this case.

See how many BOD members and EC members that you can find mentioned in the judges ruling. Guess what.. There are several more than just Jan that did things much more questionable than leavening a pre-existing website up.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 22, 2008, 6:41 PM
Post #334 of 541 (1268 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

The avatar is pretty cool. Looks like she is going to go down shooting from both barrells! I seriously respect that.

I personally believe that as an organization the right thing to do is let her go, but I also believe that it looks like she is the only one on that board to step up and show some balls to do what is right. Either way, it is bad for the USPA. Who's watch are we on here? Catch 22 for the members.

Anyone think Chris Needles leaving has anything to do with this?

Shitty situation for sure. I'm 99% sure I'm going to ditch the USPA and go with CSPA over this. I'm not a big fan of the CSPA, but at this point it seems that they are WAY less of a clusterfuck than the USPA.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jan 22, 2008, 6:49 PM
Post #335 of 541 (1259 views)
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In reply to:
I personally believe that as an organization the right thing to do is let her go, but I also believe that it looks like she is the only one on that board to step up and show some balls to do what is right. Either way, it is bad for the USPA.

In a nutshell, I think that sums my opinion up very well.
J, I've got plenty of webspace and bandwidth if you want to upload documents.


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Jan 22, 2008, 6:57 PM
Post #336 of 541 (1245 views)
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Quote:
J, I've got plenty of webspace and bandwidth if you want to upload documents.

YEAH! Education!...now everybody can read it and come to their own conclusion that there isn't just one innocent person...... nor one guilty.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jan 22, 2008, 7:00 PM
Post #337 of 541 (1238 views)
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C'mon now.. that's just crazy thought!! You're either with us or against us. If you're not part of the solution you are part of the problem. SlySlySly

No rational thinking allowed here.. just pure emotion, this isn't a search for the truth.. it's a debate! Laugh


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 22, 2008, 7:25 PM
Post #338 of 541 (1217 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just emailed them to you.

I highly encourage every one to read the Judges Ruling on the motion to dismiss (Which summarizes the other Documents fairly well) and why he let some counts stand.

Read it all but pay close attention starting at the top of page 12 of the Judges Ruling.

You might recognize some names other than Jans.


(This post was edited by Thanatos340 on Jan 22, 2008, 8:04 PM)


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 22, 2008, 7:26 PM
Post #339 of 541 (1216 views)
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In reply to:
YEAH! Education!...now everybody can read it and come to their own conclusion that there isn't just one innocent person...... nor one guilty.

Now on that we are in 100% agreement.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 22, 2008, 7:34 PM
Post #340 of 541 (1203 views)
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In reply to:
I just emailed them to you.

I highly encourage every one to read the Judges Ruling on the motion to dismiss (Which summarizes the other Documents fairly well) and why he let some counts stand.

Read it all but pay close attention starting at the top of page 12 of the Judges Ruling.

You might recognize some names other than Jans.

I'm going through what you sent me now. So far, doesn't look any different than what I've currently got, but I want to be sure there is nothing confidential in there before hanging my tail out. I've had the original filing and responses on my website for a few day now, but have only been PM'ing them.
It's easy to hang your hat on the single ruling, but the single ruling does not remotely address the bulk of the complaint.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 22, 2008, 7:52 PM
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

That single ruling is all we have to go on. The complaint is just that, a Complaint.

The counts that the Judge felt there was enough to move forward and his reasoning behind allowing those counts to move forward are very important.

Also just because the Judge allowed those counts to stand does not mean that they would have prevailed.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 23, 2008, 4:19 AM
Post #342 of 541 (1086 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Jan,
If this proposal goes through, please do not initiate litigation against USPA, the board or any of us peon skydivers. It will only make things worse for us as a group.

The future is yet to come and who knows...even if you get booted now doesn't mean that things couldn't change such that you could be back with us later.

Skyride is really, really enjoying this ride, I'm sure.


chriswelker  (D 19678)

Jan 23, 2008, 5:07 AM
Post #343 of 541 (1055 views)
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Re: [DSE] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
USPA doesn't regulate commerce.


BULL SHIT!

Winged Warriors
Discuss a program by which DZs would offer a comp tandem to any returning
wounded vet who wants to make a jump.

USPA wants to tell DZOs to 'give away' free tandem jumps.
Big DZs may be able to do that, but what about the small DZs that might lose
a significant portion of their income by such a policy.
I don't think this motion will pass, but it is on the agenda.


The USPA GM program HOSED US, NOT JAN.

No man can serve to masters.

Mr. Welker


rushmc  (D License)

Jan 23, 2008, 5:22 AM
Post #344 of 541 (1047 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
J, I've got plenty of webspace and bandwidth if you want to upload documents.

YEAH! Education!...now everybody can read it and come to their own conclusion that there isn't just one innocent person...... nor one guilty.

Will a link be posted here?


rapidshare

Jan 23, 2008, 7:09 AM
Post #345 of 541 (1001 views)
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Re: [rushmc] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://rapidshare.com/..._to_Dismiss.pdf.html
http://rapidshare.com/..._by_Skyride.pdf.html
http://rapidshare.com/...ercomplaint.pdf.html
http://rapidshare.com/...e_Complaint.pdf.html
http://rapidshare.com/..._to_dismiss.pdf.html
http://rapidshare.com/..._to_dismiss.pdf.html
http://rapidshare.com/...anceSkyride.pdf.html
http://rapidshare.com/..._to_Dismiss.pdf.html

For each of these just scroll down a bit, click on the free button and then wait for the screen to pop up asking where to download from, enter in the letters you see in bold in the little box and you will have copies of the files.


rushmc  (D License)

Jan 23, 2008, 7:32 AM
Post #346 of 541 (974 views)
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Re: [rapidshare] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Thank You


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 23, 2008, 7:35 AM
Post #347 of 541 (969 views)
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Re: [rapidshare] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

while I think everyone should read all the documents completely, There is alot of material there.

To get a good summery of the Complaint and Responses as well as the judges opinion, This document is a good overview..

It tells us what the Judge thought had merit and what did not.

http://rapidshare.com/..._to_Dismiss.pdf.html


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 23, 2008, 7:50 AM
Post #348 of 541 (957 views)
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Re: [rapidshare] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks!


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 23, 2008, 10:15 AM
Post #349 of 541 (872 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is just one example from the judges ruling (This is a small excerpt from the ruling, Everyone should read the entire ruling)..

Defendant = USPA,
Plaintiff = Skyride/ASC

From Page 12 of the Ruling:
Quote:
Specifically, on August 6, 2005, the president of the executive committee of the USPA, who was also the manager of a drop zone that competed with Plaintiffs in the Philadelphia area, visited Plaintiffs' facility in Perkasie, Pennsylvania and advised the employees of the recent USPA action and encouraged them to leave their positions to take positions with competitors.(3)

Additionally, the southern regional director of the USPA manages a drop zone in Tennessee, which is a Group Member of the USPA. Prior to the membership termination notice received by ASC, Plaintiffs were in negotiations with an airport for a drop zone location that would have been in commercial proximity to the drop zone managed by the southern regional director .
After the issuance of the August 1, 2005 letter to ASC, Plaintiffs allege that the executive director of the USPA contacted officials at the airport and informed them of the action taken against Plaintiffs . Perceiving it to be a reflection upon the safety and training procedures utilized by Plaintiffs, the self-dealing (count six), breach of a legal duty (count seven), breach of a duty of good faith and fair dealing (count eight), as well as a claim for injunctive relief (count nine). Plaintiffs seek damages in excess of $10,000,000.

(3) Plaintiffs also submit that a USPA national director from Arizona directed his
employees to directly contact Plaintiffs' employees and subcontractors in an effort to
solicit them to leave the employment and business relationships of Plaintiffs and join his drop zone .

Page 23 The judge states his opinions on the claims:
Quote:
B. State Law Claims
1. Tortious Interference
In count four, Plaintiffs contend that the USPA tortiously interfered with Plaintiffs' business relationships . Plaintiffs allege, inter alia, that the USPA (1) persuaded individuals to break off contract negotiations with Plaintiffs for a new drop zone location at a Tennessee airport ; (2) made public statements to third parties not to enter business relationships with Plaintiffs ; and (3) utilized wrongful means to solicit Plaintiffs' employees .
Under Georgia law, to state a claim for interference with business relations, a plaintiff must allege facts which, if proven, will show that a defendant "(i) acted improperly and without privilege ; (2) purposely and with malice with the intent to injure ; (3) induced a third party or parties not to enter into or continue a business relationship with the plaintiff ; and (4) for which the plaintiff suffered some financial injury." St. Mary's Hosp .
of Athens, Inc . v . Radiology Prof'I Corp., 205 Ga. App. 121,124, 421 S .E .2d
731, 734 (1992).
Defendant argues that Plaintiffs have failed to allege facts to show that the USPA "acted improperly ." Defendant relies upon Sommers Co . v. Moore, in which the Georgia Court of Appeals explained that "improper conduct means wrongful action that generally involves predatory acts such as physical violence, fraud or misrepresentation, defamation, use of confidential information, abusive civil suits, and unwanted criminal prosecutions ." 275 Ga. App . 604, 606, 621 S .E .2d 789, 791 (2005) (citationomitted) . Defendant contends that Plaintiffs have not alleged facts sufficient to meet this standard .
The Court rejects Defendant's argument . The examples of improper action discussed in Sommers are just that-examples that were intended to be illustrative of the types of conduct that might constitute tortuous interference. Here, Plaintiffs have alleged that the USPA solicited their employees, disrupted contractual negotiations, and directed others to cease doing business with Plaintiffs . The Court finds that Plaintiffs have alleged sufficient facts of improper conduct to withstand a motion to dismiss.
Defendant also argues that even if it was improper conduct to solicit Plaintiffs' employees, Plaintiffs' tortious interference claim fails as a matter 27 245, 248-49, 166 S.E.2d 744 746-47 (1969). However, "the competitor's privilege is lost when an illegal restraint of trade or competition under federal or state statutes is created or continued or when wrongful means in the solicitation of employees are utilized ." Am. Bldgs . Co . v . Pascoe Bldg . Sys., Inc., 26o Ga . 346, 349, 392 S .E.2d 8bo, 863 (1990) .
Plaintiffs have alleged facts, that if proven, could demonstrate that the USPA solicited Plaintiffs' employees with malice and with a purpose to drive Plaintiffs out of business. Additionally, as the Court has already found, Plaintiffs have stated a claim under Section One of the Sherman Act, a federal statute pertaining to the restraint of trade and unfair competition .
Under these circumstances, dismissal of Plaintiffs' tortious interference claim would be inappropriate.

Anyone still think that the only reason we had to settle were Jans Actions and that she alone should pay for the Loss?

People that believe the only reason we had to settle was Jans Posting are mistaken.

Those that worked hardest to do what was right should not be punished for those actions. Two wrongs dont make a right.

The BOD knew of Jans previous work on the Skyride issue when they voted to kick out Skyride Owners. They all share responsibility for the action they took.

Removing those websites would not have kept them from being used in this lawsuit. The Posts she made here could not be removed.

I find it strange that people want to kick Jan out because she didnt take down a personal website that was providing a public service.
Yet it was OK for member of the Executive Committee to continue being a Skyride Business associate and profit from skyride during this entire fiasco.

Is Jan a Renegade and/or Maverick that stirs things up?? I think so.
Does the USPA Need her?? ABSOLUTELY!!

I do feel I owe Dr. Lee an Apology for what many perceive as a personal attack. That is not my intention.
I am simply stating that I feel he made some very poor ethical decisions in a)Dealing with Skyride in the first place. b) Continuing to be a Skyride associate after the USPA kicked them out for ethical reasons and c) continuing to be a skyride associate and doing business with then while remaining on the board of the USPA while Skyride had pending litigation against the USPA.

Everything I have heard is that he is a man of upstanding character, However it is also my opinion that he made a poor ethical decision in this matter.

I have said my Peace on this and will remove myself from the discussion.

I am not a lawyer. All Opinions expressed are just that. My Opinions.


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Jan 23, 2008, 10:18 AM
Post #350 of 541 (867 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
while I think everyone should read all the documents completely, There is alot of material there.

To get a good summery of the Complaint and Responses as well as the judges opinion, This document is a good overview..

It tells us what the Judge thought had merit and what did not.

http://rapidshare.com/..._to_Dismiss.pdf.html

Very interesting read. Now, more than ever, I'd like to see the final ruling. Too bad it's under lock and key.

ltdiver


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jan 23, 2008, 10:21 AM
Post #351 of 541 (1672 views)
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Re: [ltdiver] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

There was NO FINAL Ruling.

The USPA Settled after that. The Discovery Process was never even completed to the best of my knowladge.


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Jan 23, 2008, 10:25 AM
Post #352 of 541 (1663 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There was NO FINAL Ruling.

The USPA Settled after that. The Discovery Process was never even completed to the best of my knowladge.

So, okay. When they settled...THAT's the paper the we'd all like to see...but is being kept out of our reach.

ltdiver


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 23, 2008, 10:51 AM
Post #353 of 541 (1635 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Anyone still think that the only reason we had to settle were Jans
>Actions and that she alone should pay for the Loss?

No one thinks that. She was ONE of the reasons that Skyride won the suit.


marks  (D 22296)

Jan 23, 2008, 12:57 PM
Post #354 of 541 (1567 views)
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Re: [billvon] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Anyone still think that the only reason we had to settle were Jans
>Actions and that she alone should pay for the Loss?

No one thinks that. She was ONE of the reasons that Skyride won the suit.

but you also have to realize, this has been her view for years, and quite possibly the reason we voted her back into office.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 23, 2008, 2:09 PM
Post #355 of 541 (1513 views)
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Re: [marks] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

>this has been her view for years . . .

What was her view? That Skyride was bad? That's fine, and I think it's a sentiment shared by many. If she took actions that helped limit the bad effects of Skyride, great. If she took actions that helped Skyride obtain a beneficial settlement, not so great. (As has been pointed out, Skyride didn't win the suit, but obtained a settlement that was very much in their favor.)

Her intentions were likely good, but I think it's better to have people who produce good results.


pilotdave  (D License)

Jan 23, 2008, 2:45 PM
Post #356 of 541 (1481 views)
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Re: [billvon] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I dunno... I kinda like her results. Informing skydivers about skyride. She's produced great results at that.

It might be true that she helped skyride's lawsuit, but I still don't think that's why they want to get rid of her. I don't think anybody at USPA saw that lawsuit coming, definitely not before they kicked skyride out. USPA, in general, put themselves in a bad position and had to pay for it. Still glad they did though! For just a little while, the USPA did the right thing.

After the USPA got sued, did jan do anything that deserves an impeachment? Guess we'll have to wait and see...

Dave


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 23, 2008, 2:50 PM
Post #357 of 541 (1474 views)
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Re: [billvon] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

And if everything would have gone our way everyone would be patting her on the back saying good job. It is wrong to turn on her because everything didn't go our way especially since there is evidence that others were involved in the reason it didn't work out and our board didn't even have a voice in whether or not to settle.


lauraliscious  (C 35895)

Jan 23, 2008, 2:59 PM
Post #358 of 541 (1469 views)
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Re: [rapidshare] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for posting all that! I just printed it all out, double sided and it's a lot of paper! Good thing I like to read, I have it cut out for me in this case. Going home for the night to get me some lawsuit edumacation.....CrazyTongue


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 23, 2008, 3:02 PM
Post #359 of 541 (1469 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

> And if everything would have gone our way everyone would be
> patting her on the back saying good job.

I wouldn't. I warned her when she first posted her parody that it might backfire on her. If it had worked out for USPA, that wouldn't have made it a better decision on her part.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 23, 2008, 4:15 PM
Post #360 of 541 (1409 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And if everything would have gone our way everyone would be patting her on the back saying good job. It is wrong to turn on her because everything didn't go our way especially since there is evidence that others were involved in the reason it didn't work out and our board didn't even have a voice in whether or not to settle.

I don't think that's the point.
You're right, Jan deserves a pat on the back no matter what, because not only has she raised the issue of Skyride to a very loud level from which they'll struggle to recover, but she's also done one helluva lot for the community.

Still yet,"The road to hell is paved with good intentions..."

From an exclusively organizational viewpoint, and no other viewpoint (so if you've never sat on a corporate board, you just might not comprehend this), there is no way a policy-making body to have a rogue member that is visible to the general public without some form of punitive discussion.
On the whole, it weakens the entire structure. And therein lies (IMO) the only point that matters.

If Jan is removed from the board (and there is a looming possibility that she won't be) then there is next the possibility of the board censuring her.
Or, they might vote that she be recused from voting, which has the same effect as being removed. Or, it may turn into a political mess of "yelling" in an orderly fashion.
Should the board be mired in a morass of mess for the next year? Or should they be making policy and working on *real* issues?

That said, no matter what, Jan is in a power position to be elected again, IMO, and she hopefully will once more seek office. She cannot be banned from seeking public office within the USPA.

In either scenario...Jan effectively comes out on top, I believe. I'd sure vote for her.
I guess I prefer to see it from a purely political perspective rather than an "Oh my god, they're beating down my friend."
Whether it's recognized or not, Jan has just been handed a big stick. Reference the recent change in the agenda as one small example of that big stick.


rushmc  (D License)

Jan 23, 2008, 5:02 PM
Post #361 of 541 (1384 views)
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Re: [Thanatos340] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Can somebody please explain to me how, information that is supposed to be secret, be used in an open impeachment meeting, to impeach a memeber?


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jan 23, 2008, 5:16 PM
Post #362 of 541 (1370 views)
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Re: [rushmc] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

It will probably not be an open meeting.


rushmc  (D License)

Jan 23, 2008, 5:23 PM
Post #363 of 541 (1360 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] USPA - Jan Meyer Impeachment?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It will probably not be an open meeting.

So, you are saying they will impeach a legally elected member in a secret meeting and keep the (impeachment) meeting minutes secret while using secret (or at least withheld) information from secret setttlement from a law suit that cost the USPA members an unknown settlement?

Ok, I can live with thatCrazy


(This post was edited by rushmc on Jan 23, 2008, 5:23 PM)