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Which EP Method is taught at your DZ?

 

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Poll: Which EP Method is taught at your DZ?
One Hand per Handle. 123 / 45%
Two Hands per Handle. 152 / 55%
275 total votes
 
riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jan 18, 2011, 6:23 AM
Post #76 of 84 (489 views)
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Re: Which EP Method is taught at your DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

As I have said before, there is a subtle distinction in the thought process between knowing that you have an RSL and using it as a consideration in the process of choosing.

It seems that the snag in this discussion hinges mostly on that distinction.

As billvon mentions, knowing your rig has or does not have an RSL can have an impact on some aspects of EPs.

It is hard not to let that knowledge creep into other parts of the reasoning.

And now, popsjumper has added a new twist - that he will use one approach as his primary procedure, and fall back on the other as needed.

Lots of people have discussed (though not necessarily on this thread) the notion of muscle memory - that making the actions become second nature - is a big thing in this.

That's true, but it really stops too short.

Either method should be available as needed. Either method should not take a lot of thought to perform.

(This says nothing about what any school chooses to teach. Neither is patently wrong. But part of this sport is that we must always be learning. That includes expanding our skills to include other actions to have and use in emergency situations. Primary schools will teach what they feel is best for their own situations. But the learning should/must not stop there.)

It is the decision to act, and the choice of approach, that takes the thought. Once the decision is made, execution should/better/must be automatic.

The bottom line is that you need to be ready to do what needs to be done, whatever it is, in response to an emergency.

Emergencies are, by nature, unpredictable. The nature of the emergency, and your facilities with which to cope with it, will vary from emergency to emergency.

If you prepare a single plan of action, and something makes that plan unfeasible, you are right back at the starting gate.

For example, if you choose the two-hands per handle approach, what happens if you have a canopy collision, and one hand is pinned by fabric and lines? You don't want to have to be thinking too hard about what to do. You should have that in the toolkit, with the only decision being which tool to pull out.

Scrumpot, pops, maybe we'd best leave this discussion now, before we are labelled ASSHOLEs.

Maybe it is time to leave Roam82 to think what he thinks.


(This post was edited by riggerpaul on Jan 18, 2011, 6:29 AM)


roam82  (C License)

Jan 18, 2011, 11:31 AM
Post #77 of 84 (461 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Which EP Method is taught at your DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, I'll try to make my toughts a bit clearer...(dawm language barrier....)

using the 1 hand 1 handle method you can lose a grip on the cutaway handle (from what I read...) and deploy your reserve into the problematic main.That I think is the easiest mistake to make in a stressful situation.( a least for myself, as it is more muscle memory and not as rational as look, locate, pull...)

Using the 2 hand 1 handle method you can have trouble finding your reserve handle...

Quote:
nobody should be saying that they have an RSL because they expect not to find their handle.

I've NEVER said anything even close to that.(...well, at least never meant to said anything close to that..)

Quote:
You've "asked" the same question 3x's now

I ask 3x because I kept having the same anwser from the same person. I like second opinion on those matter.

I argue because I feel that you dont quite understand what i'm trying to say...rsl or not I would be using the same method, but the rsl is a big + to it....maybe my words were too strong on my first post...

voila,

Assholes!!!! ( joke!!!!! Wink )

F.


Hellis

Jan 18, 2011, 11:44 AM
Post #78 of 84 (458 views)
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Re: [roam82] Which EP Method is taught at your DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
using the 1 hand 1 handle method you can lose a grip on the cutaway handle

Which is why you should grab, peel and pull.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jan 18, 2011, 1:35 PM
Post #79 of 84 (439 views)
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Re: [roam82] Which EP Method is taught at your DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
rsl or not I would be using the same method.

Awesome. Well, then - choose your method, practice it, then practice, practice practice. Oh yeah - then... practice it some more. The choice of whichever method (1 hand per handle, or 2-hands per handle) should not be influenced really - EITHER WAY, by the presence of an RSL, or not.

Andy (Popsjumper) said it all, I think most clearly & thoroughly to you too, in his post (#73 in the entire chain - above) I think. If you still think you would either consider, or practice different, or differing EP's on one rig that has and RSL, versus another that does not - I might have one other set of thought considerations for you even yet then. but...

In any case, it seems you are thinking this through logically, to make an informed decision, for you - and that is good. Cool


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 18, 2011, 6:17 PM
Post #80 of 84 (418 views)
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Re: [roam82] Which EP Method is taught at your DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

OK raom82...I'm posting this for two reasons.
Please understand that I am not assuming you are clueless...you may very well know all this stuff. I am posting it because I think it may help you and it may very well help other young jumpers reading this thread.

In reply to:
using the 1 hand 1 handle method you can lose a grip on the cutaway handle (from what I read...)
Yes, this is true. It's also true for 2 hands, 1 handle.
So, assuming either one, if your hand slips off the cutaway handle, what would you do? You'd go back and get it before you pulled the reserve handle, right?

In reply to:
and deploy your reserve into the problematic main.
Yes, this has happened. It's happened to those who...
a) forget their training.
b) rush through the EPs
We don't do anything fast in skydiving. Rushing causes problems. We are not trying to beat the RSL

In reply to:
That I think is the easiest mistake to make in a stressful situation.( a least for myself, as it is more muscle memory and not as rational as look, locate, pull...)
And you can avoid those mistakes. Here are some suggestions:

Caveat: KNOW your gear and how it operates and why it operates that way.

1. Pick a procedure...1- or 2-handed, and practice it.
2. Practice what to do if your hand slips off the cutaway handle.
3. Practice what to do if you can't find either one of the handles.
4. Practice what to do if you only have one hand to work with.
5. Focus on cool, calm and collected.
6. Understand that your adrenaline levels are going to go up and adrenaline does weird things to your mind...if you let it.

You can help yourself avoid that adrenaline-induced confusion with knowledge and practice and focus.

Here are some suggestions:
a) KNOW your mals and what they look like.
This does not mean a "one-time through and I got it" session. This means a detailed, in-depth knowledge involving review after review after review until you know those things like the back of your hand.

b) PRACTICE what you will do when that mal hits you. Practice it again and again. Practice it very deliberately...without rushing. Talk yourself through it using keywords. Talking helps slow you down.

c) FOCUS on what you need to do when you have that mal, as opposed to worrying about what "might" happen.

If you have thoroughly accomplished a) and b) and c) above, you will have more confidence in yourself and that adrenalin rush will be less troublesome.

Knowledge is power. If you KNOW what to do when you see the situation and you have confidence in yourself, you'll, by far and away, be more likely to handle things properly and that adrenaline rush will not overcome your thinking processes.

Cool, calm and collected is the key...knowledge, practice and focus will get you there.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jan 19, 2011, 6:16 PM
Post #81 of 84 (390 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Which EP Method is taught at your DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

The one thing that worries me about the two hands on each handle method is that people seem to forget to look at the reserve handle before cutting away.

I do a lot of refreshers and such for people, and I let them practice whichever method they were originally taught. Had another guy today I did a refresher with - he had originally learned the 2 hands per handle method. He didn't know/remember to look at the reserve handle before chopping. In fact I can't think of a single person I've ever done an emergency review with who remembered to look at the reserve before chopping until I bring it up.

It does make me wonder about the number of people who learn that method who actually remember to do that in an emergency.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 19, 2011, 9:47 PM
Post #82 of 84 (372 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Which EP Method is taught at your DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Wendy,

Holy beans in a basket, you hit on a pet peeve.

Not only the two-handed people but the 1-handed people, too. For the love of petunias, people! LOOK before you reach and KEEP YOUR EYES ON THEM UNTIL YOU PULL THEM!


kottonics  (Student)

Jan 21, 2011, 8:02 AM
Post #83 of 84 (340 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Which EP Method is taught at your DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
wasn't it
look red, grab red (with both hands),look silver, pull red. Then grab silver, pull silver ?
this sounds like what i was taught, ( quite recently i might add) and always with both hands throwing arms all the way out.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jan 21, 2011, 9:50 AM
Post #84 of 84 (326 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Which EP Method is taught at your DZ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course I've also had people with a hand on each release the ripcord when they cut away just from the mental shock of cutting away.Wink One guy spent a 1000', uummm, and maybe a FXC fire, trying to find it again.

And no, most people have to be reminded to look at it. Of course it also moves as you cutaway so even if they are looking at it they have to find it again after cutting away. With newbies I'm just too worried about doing it in the wrong order.

With experienced people, they never look at either one!Cool (That's a joke newbies, NOT something to aspire to!)


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