Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
hot trunk

 

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bch7773  (C License)

Aug 12, 2007, 1:07 PM
Post #26 of 75 (1306 views)
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Re: [divekennene] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Think about this...by adding 60 more days to the repack cycle, jumpers increase the risk (by 50%) that their rigger is in fact human and has made an error in repacking their reserve. Regardless of training and care taken in repacking, riggers will forever make mistakes. If you only jump 2 times a week, by using a 180 day repack cycle, you have just given yourself 8 more opportunities to find out that your rigger is human and has made a mistake, possibly at the price of your life. If I am renting a rig, it is a little scary to know that the dropzone is knowingly adding more risk to an already risky sport.


CrazyCrazyCrazy
it doesn't matter what the repack cycle is... if your rigger made a mistake he made a mistake.

lets pretend your scenerio...

I get my rig repacked, with a packing error in the reserve. I get lucky and never have to use it... well guess what happends when I get it repacked... IT HAS THE SAME CHANCE A RIGGER WILL REPACK IT WRONGLY!!!

in fact, repacking it more often would probably lead to more chances of error... because the rigger now has 3 times a year to mess it up, instead of 2 times a year under the 180 reserve cycle.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 12, 2007, 5:19 PM
Post #27 of 75 (1290 views)
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Re: [divekennene] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

>by adding 60 more days to the repack cycle, jumpers increase the risk
>(by 50%) that their rigger is in fact human and has made an error in
>repacking their reserve.

Right. They also decrease their risk (by 50%) that a poor rigger will take a their perfectly good reserve pack job, repack it after only 120 days, and turn it into a reserve total. It all washes out in the end.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 12, 2007, 7:47 PM
Post #28 of 75 (1278 views)
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Re: [ChrisL] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't see how extending it 2 months would prevent this type of thing.
Its not going to make people think any harder before doing something like that.
Amen, brother. I've seen reserves packed for well over a year work just fine. There's nothing magical about 120 days, people. Just don't be stupid with your gear.Mad

Word from the PIA is that too much repacking is bad for your reserve. I'd like to put an end to that.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 12, 2007, 7:49 PM
Post #29 of 75 (1277 views)
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Re: [billvon] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>by adding 60 more days to the repack cycle, jumpers increase the risk
>(by 50%) that their rigger is in fact human and has made an error in
>repacking their reserve.

Right. They also decrease their risk (by 50%) that a poor rigger will take a their perfectly good reserve pack job, repack it after only 120 days, and turn it into a reserve total. It all washes out in the end.
Have Schrodinger's cat pack your reserve. Then it will be perfectly good and fatally flawed all at the same time. Cool


reinhart36  (B 30295)

Aug 22, 2007, 6:08 AM
Post #30 of 75 (1201 views)
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Re: [hackish] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can't imagine 80F causing a problem with the materials a rig is made from but 80C could possibly. Is your life worth the $65 repack fee? You decide.

-Michael

If it was 80 and sunny, 80 degrees is the minimum temperature that his trunk could be. However, in direct sunlight it is likely that much more heat was transferred into the trunk.

The trunk could easily be in the 100s on an 80 degree day.

As to whether or not this would affect his gear, I have no clue...

I agree about the $65. Crazy


reinhart36  (B 30295)

Aug 22, 2007, 6:32 AM
Post #31 of 75 (1197 views)
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Re: [divekennene] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Think about this...by adding 60 more days to the repack cycle, jumpers increase the risk (by 50%) that their rigger is in fact human and has made an error in repacking their reserve.

No offense, but your logic is flawed here.

If the probablity is (arbitrarily) .01 (one in a hundred) that any given pack job is "bad", then it doesn't matter how often you get repacked.

Your odds will always be .01, even if you're repacked an infinite number of times in a year.

As was pointed out earlier, if your next pack job is going to be a "bad" one, and your current one is a "good" one, then the longer you wait for the repack the better..


Premier divekennene  (C 38390)

Aug 22, 2007, 7:05 AM
Post #32 of 75 (1189 views)
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Re: [reinhart36] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

You are absolutely correct. I misspoke the point I was trying to make. What I was trying to say is this: Let's say Joe Rigger is handed Sally Jumper's rig. As he unpacks it and prepares to repack it, he notices a fatal flaw in the pack job. Because it was still packed up, it is "fairly" safe to assume she had good openings on her main for the past 120 days, whether it be from good pack jobs or fairly uneventful (meaning nothing went majorly wrong) jumps. Now, had she had the opportunity to jump for 60 more days (let's just say 15 or 20 jumps), she would have had 15 or 20 more "chances" that she either made a mistake with her pack jobs, or had an "eventful" jump where she may have had to use her reserve, which would have given her the unfortunate opportunity of realizing her riggers error. So yes, I agree that the odds of a "bad" pack job always remain the same. With 60 days added to the pack cycle, you are just a little more likely to find it because you are getting 15 to 20 more shots at making your own main packing mistake, freefalling mistake, or someone else who is in the sky with you making a mistake (forcing you to go to your reserve).


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 22, 2007, 9:39 AM
Post #33 of 75 (1164 views)
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Re: [divekennene] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

>With 60 days added to the pack cycle, you are just a little more
>likely to find it because you are getting 15 to 20 more shots at making
> your own main packing mistake, freefalling mistake, or someone else
>who is in the sky with you making a mistake (forcing you to go to your
>reserve).

Right. But if you SHORTEN the reserve pack cycle, you make it more likely that a poor rigger has taken that good pack job and prematurely replaced it with his bad pack job - thus increasing your risk. What might have been a jump on your old (good) reserve pack job is now made on the new (bad) reserve pack job. You now are at risk for an additional 15 to 20 jumps.

The two cancel each other out.


Premier divekennene  (C 38390)

Aug 22, 2007, 10:09 AM
Post #34 of 75 (1153 views)
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Re: [billvon] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

Well put billvon. Debate was never a strong suit for me. Anyone know where I can get into a good knitting class?Smile


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Aug 22, 2007, 6:13 PM
Post #35 of 75 (1116 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

Regarding the 120 vs 180 day repack cycle, one factor to account for is that in some places (like Ottawa), I have difficulty finding someone available to repack. One rigger is 1 hour drive away (and I don't have a car), while another is too busy with several rigs and long days at a main full time job. Shipping away the rig solves the problem, but this adds additional inconvenience, expense and risk (of loss). So this forces me to rent gear with more unfamiliar characteristics, which increases my risk in the sport. In this perspective, if I am eventually allowed to do so I'd rather take my chances with a 121-day old reserve if I am travelling, than jumping unfamiliar gear. It is U.S. made gear, so I can't claim the Canadian 180-day while travelling to the U.S.

Mind you, one could own terrible gear and rent excellent gear, but the vice-versa often happens. However, no matter what, the 'unfamiliarity' principle still applies.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Aug 22, 2007, 6:21 PM)


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Aug 22, 2007, 7:31 PM
Post #36 of 75 (1122 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

So let me see if I got this right... You can travel to the US to skydive, but can't drive an hour to a rigger? Mine's 45 minutes away. If you're having problems with finding a rigger every 120 days, then you'll have those same problems with a 180 day pack cycle. Is your argument about safety and inspection of the H/C and a reserve AIR or being inconvenienced?


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Aug 23, 2007, 12:46 AM
Post #37 of 75 (1095 views)
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Re: [billvon] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>"I support the 180 day cycle" without any reason as to why . . .

I support it because:

It results in less wear on gear, meaning that a given rig/reserve combination will be safe to jump for a longer time

Countries that have a 180 day repack cycle have seen no significant problems with it

Manufacturers have left reserves packed for several years and drop-tested them with no problems

No inspection cycle can catch gross neglect of gear; a reserve will mildew in a month if left wet

Manufacturers generally know more about their gear than you or I, and most are in favor of the 180 day cycle (PD actually recommends a 360 day cycle in the absence of other rules)
No doubt the repack cycle could be moved to 180 days. Why be wussies here, push it to 2 years, why not? from what i've read in all posts on this thread one could use the same arguments to push the pack cycle way longer than 180 days. A manufacturer may recommend 360 days if there were'nt any other rules, what happens in 360 days? My guess is the same thing that happens in 120 days or 2 years or 20 years, the parachute is still a parachute, the risk of it working properly or improperly are the same. I had the honor of deploying a vector 2 that had been packed over 13 years, it would've worked without fail, pilotchute launched about 10ft, the rest of the system deployed uneventful. The only reason that I could not complete the repack right 'o way is that the reserve pilotchute had to be updated to a new design, why? The manufacturer says so, how come they chose to change pilotchutes? The old one worked just fine. On another note, cutters & loops: with the newer devices being installed into rigs the past few years or shall I say the past 40 years, who's catching the issues with these damn things anyway and how often are they being caught. I went through the arduous task of becoming comfy with installing a newly designed aad into a strangers rig. It never happened. The thing jacked up before I could install it. Cutter issues were found as well. As the fella that certifies rigs as airworthy for friends and sometimes strangers should I install new device into homies rig because ' countries that have installed such devices have seen no significant issues'. Sorry I chose an alternative. Sorry i'm doing wierd math here:Since the other countries have installed such device then their pack cycle is 180 days, i'll wait to get data for atleast 180 days, add in 1 pencil pack, that makes it atleast a year before any symptoms of such device may appear if any are reported. Maybe the device will cause no 'stir' in the community within and shortly after their 1st year on the market, did'nt happen, damn devices. Things have been found by riggers in the field that have as another poster said that has caused recalls and service bulletins, i'm one of those riggers. Some rigs should be on a lesser pack cycle than 120 days. The longer the pack cycle the more jumps and trunks gear is involved in. Repairs are imminent. We could leave it up to the individual jumper 100% of the time to get repairs done and repacks when their scared enough. Go big or go home, stretch the repack cycle to 2 years, i don't have a problem with that, hell, i'm well practiced enough, having less rigging work means less practice, those who already suck at rigging will be even more scary to get rigging done by. It won't matter if I charge $5 or $500 for an I&R, hahaha. I still have yet to place a skull and crossbones in my riggers log and don't intend too. Bill Von I have much respect for you and enjoy your view, fire away.


2shay  (D 1)

Aug 23, 2007, 3:50 PM
Post #38 of 75 (1035 views)
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Re: [divekennene] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

you are aware that the US military is on a 180 day cycle. I jumped in the military for a few years. They are about as meticulous as you could get, and if they trust it I don't see why I couldn't. I support the 180 cycle there are just not enough reasons to keep the 120, it is pretty well useless. Everyone has just got to many what if questions and superstitions. DO you think you will be more safe becasue it is inspected more? I don't. It just takes once and you may not know when that once will be 120 or 180 days. It is useless and I think the FAA may finally be catching on to that.


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Aug 23, 2007, 5:29 PM
Post #39 of 75 (1021 views)
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Re: [2shay] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
DO you think you will be more safe becasue it is inspected more? I don't. It just takes once and you may not know when that once will be 120 or 180 days. It is useless and I think the FAA may finally be catching on to that.
The 180 day pack cycle is just as useless as the 120 day pack cycle. Why would a jumper 'need' to get their rig inspected at 180 days? Is that when they get scared? What reasons are there to even have a pack cycle? Without a pack cycle a jumper would be at their own discretion as to when to get their rig repaired and/or inspected and packed.


2shay  (D 1)

Aug 23, 2007, 5:40 PM
Post #40 of 75 (1017 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

if you sweat while wearing you rig that much the reserve material can start to stick together. We had a kid who had not had his packed in a year and when it was repacked my friend had to let it sit overnight for the material to become unstuck. It may be an idea to have it serviced every so many jumps but some make more than others and is not as easily monitored as would be month to month.


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Aug 23, 2007, 5:47 PM
Post #41 of 75 (1013 views)
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Re: [2shay] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me know what you think of this idea: When it comes to the FAA and the inspections on aircraft they do such things as a 100 hr inspection. Could it be possible to have a 100 jump inspection? Like every 100 jumps and/or each year? As in other posts jumpers do things to gear that would warrant a inspection and packing of their rig much sooner than even 120 days. And about repairs: some riggers can do and some should'nt and don't. How many times can the velcro that needs replaced keep going on without being replaced? stiffeners? boc? etc...


2shay  (D 1)

Aug 23, 2007, 6:19 PM
Post #42 of 75 (1004 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

as posted earlier cycles no matter how often cannot catch abuse and neglect, or ignorrance. I think jump number inspections would probably be better but would be a lot harder to keep up with everyone and their logbooks and such. Once again something could happen in this time so I guess it is somewhat of a catch 22 for idiots who don't take care of their stuff. I really think six month cycle would be a good deal. You are right with some points you have made and I think it will get better in time. Since we are working with the faa, you know.


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Aug 23, 2007, 7:27 PM
Post #43 of 75 (995 views)
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Re: [2shay] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks, your right about keeping track of jumps on gear. lots of dz's have computer generated manifest these days, could the computer manifest act as a Hobbs meter of sort?


2shay  (D 1)

Aug 24, 2007, 12:53 AM
Post #44 of 75 (975 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

yes thats fine but that won't work for smaller operations I would guess thats probably at least 50%. So I don't know. I think if it were able to happen it would be better I really don't see the faa or few dz's doing that though


pilotdave  (D License)

Aug 24, 2007, 5:51 AM
Post #45 of 75 (957 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think a repack cycle based on jumps makes sense, but Alti-2 does make a version of the Neptune that works like a hobbs meter for skydiving equipment. Meant for tandem/student gear, to track usage. If it was imperative to track the number of jumps on a piece of gear, the tracking system would have to stay with the gear, not with manifest. Gear travels, manifest doesn't.

Dave


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Aug 24, 2007, 9:45 AM
Post #46 of 75 (937 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think a repack cycle based on jumps makes sense, but Alti-2 does make a version of the Neptune that works like a hobbs meter for skydiving equipment. Meant for tandem/student gear, to track usage. If it was imperative to track the number of jumps on a piece of gear, the tracking system would have to stay with the gear, not with manifest. Gear travels, manifest doesn't.

Dave
This is true. What makes sense to you for pack cycle? days/yrs/usage/owner discretion/none at all?


2shay  (D 1)

Aug 24, 2007, 12:50 PM
Post #47 of 75 (922 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the only way that a per jump cycle would work is if we did have ultimate authority on when our gear is serviced. That would also tell me that everyone would be on the honor system. That also reminds me that there are idiots that would brush off there gear maintenance just because of ignorrance or they may just not care. I could maybe see someone getting hurt because of negligence. Maybe someone doesn't take care of their loop lets say and there reserve fires in a formation. That might really suck for more than just that person, far fetched but could happen. Whole other subect now but what I can see happening is that maybe we go to six months, which would be good and I want that to happen. I can see someone having a problem with their reserve and it totally being UNRELATED, but would blame it on the longer cycle and maybe starting a shit storm. I can see some dumbasses buying into that. I would guess that most people would think that a six month cycle is more risky wether they are educated or not, the majority usually wins those debates. That would suck, once again far fetched but maybe.


(This post was edited by 2shay on Aug 24, 2007, 3:53 PM)


pilotdave  (D License)

Aug 26, 2007, 4:21 PM
Post #48 of 75 (870 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I'd like to see it measured in months instead of days, so we can stop having to calculate when 120/180 days will be. In the FAA world, they usually give till the end of the month, but that'd cause all kinds of problems for riggers so I wouldn't like that. But I think basing a repack cycle on time is the only way to go. Very simple, easy to keep track and plan ahead, and seems to be working just fine.

How many months is another question. I have no idea. That takes research and thinking. We know all about ~4 months in the US. Other countries know about ~6 months. We pretty much know that we don't degrade safety by going to 6 months... or at least that's what the research seems to show. I'm sure there's an optimal number, but I don't think anyone's trying to figure out what it is. The question is just if 180 days, like they do in a lot of other countries, will make us any more or less safe.

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Aug 26, 2007, 4:23 PM)


Broke  (A License)

Aug 26, 2007, 10:53 PM
Post #49 of 75 (848 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

If you are concerned about calculating the 120 days why don't you check this out http://www.rigminder.net


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Aug 27, 2007, 12:04 PM
Post #50 of 75 (807 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] hot trunk [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would'nt we just go with manufacturer recommendations instead of pack cycle? Like we do for cypres batteries and service? I do think that a 180 day cycle would be good for some areas that have 6 months of season. Q: if 180 days will make us any more or less safe? Some rigs don't get wear for years. Some have wear and parts that should be repaired and have'nt within 6 months,some parachute owners don't realize and some don't care what happens when the reserve gets wet or left in a hot trunk till...


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