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USPA election candidate opinions

 

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indyz  (D 28525)

Nov 18, 2002, 10:33 PM
Post #126 of 303 (1346 views)
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Re: [Cloudseeder] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

Posting flamebait instead of answers to reasonable questions will get you nowhere. Would you please post your unedited statement or even just a specific example of how your statement was edited?

Without it, I am just going to have to assume that you are lying to us about your statement being illegally altered by the USPA.


Cloudseeder

Nov 18, 2002, 10:35 PM
Post #127 of 303 (1346 views)
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Re: [indyz] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

[We know you are telling the truth about the Governance Manual. Nobody has questioned that the Manual says that statements must be printed exactly as submitted.
__________________________________________________

Thank you!

__________________________________________________
Some of us might even believe that your statement has been edited,
__________________________________________________

Brian, if you believe my statement has been edited in violation of Our Rules of Governance have you asked HQ for an original copy of my statement?

Have you asked HQ where they get off violating Our Rules of Governance?

Because Brian,
If you admit that no editing of a candidates statement is allowed, than any editing of a candidates statement is necessarily a very large issue. We are talking about censuring political free speech.
_________________________________________________


but your childish refusal to post your original statement or even a specific example of how it was edited only serves to hurt your position.
__________________________________________________
Brian,
all I can say is that this matter may go to litigation and my attorney has requested that I don't speak about the particulars at this time.

"Treetop"


Cloudseeder

Nov 18, 2002, 11:14 PM
Post #128 of 303 (1334 views)
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Re: [indyz] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Posting flamebait instead of answers to reasonable questions will get you nowhere. Would you please post your unedited statement or even just a specific example of how your statement was edited?

Sure, No problem.
Now this is going to take some effort on your part.
First pull out your November issue of Parachutist.
Go ahead, turn to the candidates and find the "Treetop" section.
Ok, now go to the USPA.org website . Go through all that and find the "Treetop entry .

Now look at the second line right under the name.

Did you notice any difference?
I damn sure did.
It appears that Our official publication ,"Parachutist" states that I live in California.
The website shows me as living in Georgia.

ha,spt,laff,ha. Now some of you may not see a big difference in whether the electorate is led to believe that I live on the west coast when actually I live on the east coast.
I've been up ,I've been down ,I've been all around,and I know when some one is bs'n me.
I can smell it coming on from way out.

Most of you think or believe that this is all about my statement this year.

I love you people and envy your naivete.
Well not really.
If I was that naive I'd feel like a chump!
I'd be researching my ass off!

But I can smell the BS way out and it's getting stronger. Watch for something major. Something very unjust.It will make some of you very happy but many of you who hold personal mores will think "that's not right".
You won't do anything , you'll punk out. You'll take no action but you'll just know that that's not right!
But it will be too late anyway. Because you didn't watch your organization and hold them to Our Rules.
"Treetop" a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2002, 11:27 PM
Post #129 of 303 (1329 views)
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Re: [Cloudseeder] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

Another red herring!

Post your original statement, as you've been kindly asked more then a few times.


JohnnyD

Nov 18, 2002, 11:35 PM
Post #130 of 303 (1326 views)
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Re: [sangiro] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The Dropzone.com Forums was created exactly because people like Don turned the other place where I used to enjoy hanging out into an unfriendly and patronizing environment.
That hits the nail on the head.
God bless you HH.


Cloudseeder

Nov 18, 2002, 11:57 PM
Post #131 of 303 (1316 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you posted the original document, then it would give me something to compare to the published verison.
__________________________________________________

Ad I've publically stated previously Sir,
I'll leave it to you Knights and Texans to wrangle that statement from USPA.
It should be public domain as I submitted it for public viewing.
Let me know how you make out, No not like that!!! Wink
I mean whether or not you are able to access my original document.

Later Sir!
I Hope all is well Sir for you and yours Sir,
"Treetop"


Quite using a red herring, that fallacy is not overlooked here and I would like you to answer the original question.


Cloudseeder

Nov 19, 2002, 12:04 AM
Post #132 of 303 (1310 views)
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Re: [JohnnyD] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

[]
That hits the nail on the head.
God bless you HH.
Yes ,God bless you HHAngelicAngelicAngelic
inverted bunch of y s


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 19, 2002, 12:10 AM
Post #133 of 303 (1308 views)
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Re: [Cloudseeder] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

You are trying to persuade me to believe in your arguement, thus it is your responsibility to provide facts to prove your statements, not mine. This is a very basic theory of persuasion, I would hope that any person running for an elected office would know that. Also, if I were to believe your stated grievances, then me asking for that document from the USPA would be like a pro-choice advocate telling someone they're trying to win over to check with the Christian Coalition for pro-abortion data.

This alone proves your argument a farce.

As much as you're running in circles, I would think that you'd be dizzy by now.

If you're unwilling to post the document, then I am going to have to believe that the entire situation is of your own creation and thus a scam, the only purpose of which is to drain funds from mine and other member's dues paid to the USPA in a frivolous law-suit.


Cloudseeder

Nov 19, 2002, 12:34 AM
Post #134 of 303 (1301 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You are trying to persuade me to believe in your arguement, thus it is your responsibility to provide facts to prove your statements, not mine.
_________________________________________________

It may be that way in a court situation Aggie Dave but it's not quite like that in a membership association.
Different rules don't ch'a know,
So have you even gotten off your wide ass to look up Our Governance manual and verify the facts I've provided concerning Section 3-1.2.D.3.d.
or have you been too busy talkin' some bullshittin' fake ass sir ?

Are you really such an uninformed punk in real life?

Look Dave, It's all right there. I led you to the ring. Now read it and stand up.
The greenies aren't going to help you out here because they've already read and figured out that I'm right on.

Now it's time for you to educate yourself Dave.
Then you can talk as an educated man.
"Treetop"


(This post was edited by Cloudseeder on Nov 19, 2002, 12:37 AM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 19, 2002, 12:59 AM
Post #135 of 303 (1297 views)
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Re: [Cloudseeder] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm...Seeing how I quoted from the 3-1.2.D.3.e in a previous post and already made my point about your statements, then your answer is 'Yes'.

An argument is an argument and for an argument to be persuasive, there have to be a few things provided, one of which is fact. The one document that could prove your argument is, at this point, only available from you; furthermore, since you refuse to provide it, we can only assume that it does not exist. This is how society works, no matter if we're in a courtroom, part of a membership association or anything else for that matter.

As for the moderators, I don't need them, I've been through a lot worst in my 22 short years then you could probably imagine, either way, its a lot more then you can do to me here or otherwise.

What actually humors me is that you've resorted to trying to insult me, belittle my intelligence and question my education. At that point in a debate, the participants can be sure that the other person is left holding nothing and realizes that he can't win.

With that said, you may rant, insult and conjure as many arguments as you wish, but with out the one document that may prove your side, you won't persuade anyone.


(now, back to my books and notes so I can continue to get ready for the test I have in 6 hours)


Cloudseeder

Nov 19, 2002, 1:10 AM
Post #136 of 303 (1296 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Treetop,

Please re-read the Forum Rules (Forum Rules), I do believe you've really crossed over them on this one.
__________________________________________________
Mr. Aggie Dave,
If the Truth is censored on this forum than this forum surely has no worth.


__________________________________________________
Yes our community takes some flak for having rules and moderators to enforce them, but it keeps it much more civilized then wreck-dot, allowing good discussion without the needless flaming.

And that is great for people like you who are unwilling to reseach the facts I bet.
People like you who talk alot without any facts.
So Aggie Dave,
Have you looked yet at Our Governance Manual?
What does it say about National Director Candidates' statements?
Sir?

"Treetop"


Cloudseeder

Nov 19, 2002, 1:25 AM
Post #137 of 303 (1293 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hmmm...Seeing how I quoted from the 3-1.2.D.3.e in a previous post and already made my point about your statements, then your answer is 'Yes'.

An argument is an argument and for an argument to be persuasive, there have to be a few things provided, one of which is fact. The one document that could prove your argument is, at this point, only available from you; furthermore, since you refuse to provide it, we can only assume that it does not exist. This is how society works, no matter if we're in a courtroom, part of a membership association or anything else for that matter.

As for the moderators, I don't need them, I've been through a lot worst in my 22 short years then you could probably imagine, either way, its a lot more then you can do to me here or otherwise.

What actually humors me is that you've resorted to trying to insult me, belittle my intelligence and question my education. At that point in a debate, the participants can be sure that the other person is left holding nothing and realizes that he can't win.

With that said, you may rant, insult and conjure as many arguments as you wish, but with out the one document that may prove your side, you won't persuade anyone.
__________________________________________________

Quite the spin you've got there Mr Aggie Dave.

Once again have you read the Governance Manual?
If so have you asked HQ to provide you with my original statement
You'll get no help from the greenies. They clocked out when they saw the Truth.
You are on your own.
If the Governance Manual states that the candidates statements' will be printed "exactly as submitted" and mine wasn't, and the Executive committee was informed that my statement hadn't been presented "Exactly as submitted " , and they made some lame ass excuse...but stll refused to correct my statement on the website, How much would you trust USPA?

Nothing personal Dave... You know I just like to argue.
Of course that doesn't mean my arguments are without merit.

Fair Winds and Unlimited Ceilings Aggie Dave ,
for you and yours,
"Treetop"






(now, back to my books and notes so I can continue to get ready for the test I have in 6 hours)


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 19, 2002, 1:28 AM
Post #138 of 303 (1291 views)
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Re: [Cloudseeder] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If the Governance Manual states that the candidates statements' will be printed "exactly as submitted" and mine wasn't

Please scroll up and reread one of my earlier posts in which I addressed this specifically.

Oh, and I think the moderators "clocked out" because it is nearly 4am.Cool


Cloudseeder

Nov 19, 2002, 1:42 AM
Post #139 of 303 (1288 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If the Governance Manual states that the candidates statements' will be printed "exactly as submitted" and mine wasn't

Please scroll up and reread one of my earlier posts in which I addressed this specifically.
__________________________________________________

Nope, cant find that!
Of course I limited my search to "logical arguments"
Cool
________________________________________________

Oh, and I think the moderators "clocked out" because it is nearly 4am.Cool
DZ.dot com types for sure!Wink

I'm not sleeping tonight Sir,how about you?


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 19, 2002, 1:56 AM
Post #140 of 303 (1284 views)
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Re: [Cloudseeder] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

Whether you found my argument "logical" or not is your decision, from my perspective it proves my point. Another step, in either direction, can not be taken until my original request is fulfilled (posting of your document).




No sleep for the weary, for I have a scom-210 test at 8am, which in its self is frustrating, being much harder then a sophomore level class should be.

On another note, if you you watch this site long enough, you'll notice a rhythm to the posts, throughout the day. The rhythm has to do with time zones, wake up times, lunch times, times people get off work and when they go to bed, and the flow of which over different time zones.


Cloudseeder

Nov 19, 2002, 2:12 AM
Post #141 of 303 (1279 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Whether you found my argument "logical" or not is your decision, from my perspective it proves my point. Another step, in either direction, can not be taken until my original request is fulfilled (posting of your document).




No sleep for the weary, for I have a scom-210 test at 8am, which in its self is frustrating, being much harder then a sophomore level class should be.

On another note, if you you watch this site long enough, you'll notice a rhythm to the posts, throughout the day. The rhythm has to do with time zones, wake up times, lunch times, times people get off work and when they go to bed, and the flow of which over different time zones.

Stick your head out the door Dave
The meteor showers tonight are spectacular!


nacmacfeegle  (D 11004)

Nov 19, 2002, 3:11 AM
Post #142 of 303 (1272 views)
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Re: [Cloudseeder] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

"As always, please try to keep it civil. "
Vain hope Bill?


Treetop, you are not doing a very good job of encouraging people to vote for you.

I wasn't going to vote in the USPA, I have the right to vote as an international member, but because I am unlikley to be back in the US for a while, I figured I was morally obliged to abstain.

Your discussion in this thread, and the way you have discussed the various issues involved has actually put me in a mind to vote, for anyone but you.


Good luck on the hustings.


(This post was edited by nacmacfeegle on Nov 19, 2002, 3:13 AM)


tombuch  (D 8514)

Nov 19, 2002, 4:15 AM
Post #143 of 303 (1266 views)
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Re: [Cloudseeder] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you would like to see a copy of my original statement ask HQ.

The fact is that no,
USPA has no right to edit my statement in any way, regardless of what Larry Bagley may have told Bil Von.

Dude, chill. You have a keyboard, and we have monitors. Type your statement exactly as it was presented to USPA. Click on "Post Preview" and make sure it's right. Then click on "Post Reply." Stop telling us. Show us.

As for USPA and the use of standard formatting for publication, you are way out of line. Parachutist is distributed to more than 34,000 people, and we expect a standard format that is simple to read. The candidates statements are listed as small elements in tight space. As a reader I don't want some kind of weird new-age concrete poetry. I don't want to figure out odd syntax and punctuation. I don't want to sort through 20 or 30 different styles of type use, or different spellings, or different graphic presentations. I just want to know where you stand on the issues. The USPA position statements are extraordinarily flexible in terms of content. Say whatever you like, but use the established style. If you have some weird or unique graphic statement you want to make, do it on the internet, or buy an ad in Skydiving.

Now, chill on the hostility, stop with all the legal action crap, and go make a fun jump.


Vallerina  (C License)

Nov 19, 2002, 5:42 AM
Post #144 of 303 (1252 views)
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Re: [Cloudseeder] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

This has all been much too long to actually hold my attention, but from the little I've gotten, you'd rather everyone here individually contact USPA to find out your true campaign statement? I'm amazed by your thoughts on efficiency.


(This post was edited by Vallerina on Nov 19, 2002, 6:14 AM)


happythoughts  (D License)

Nov 19, 2002, 6:47 AM
Post #145 of 303 (1233 views)
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Re: [Vallerina] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This has all been much too long to actually hold my attention, but from the little I've gotten, you'd rather everyone here individually contact USPA to find out your true campaign statement? I'm amazed by your thoughts on efficiency.

This isn't addressed to Valerina alone, but to everyone. AggieDave especially.

Dave, he just likes to argue, that is his "most excellent entertainment". Kind of like wrestling with a pig. You figure out you can't win because the pig doesn't care and kinda likes the mud. By responding, you just add to his "entertainment".

To all, he isn't trying to educate anyone. He just wants us to inquire on the USPA site. If he wanted to inform us, he would post it.

The reason that he doesn't post it is this: There are no changes, other than a few grammatical ones. Nothing to alter the intent or message. He just wants to imply that there is some grand conspiracy to prevent his "message" from getting out. He probably believes that the moon shots were faked also. I keep hearing "Luke...I am your father...come to the Dark Side". Perhaps the USPA and the CIA are after him together. Better put on the tin-foil hat so that can't read his brain waves.

If you read and compare, you will discover that the there is no conspiracy. Reading the Governance Manual is just part of the silliness. That is all this whole charade is, silliness.

He keeps saying "Ask Questions", we are. He doesn't answer. The members of the BOD have always responded to my emails within 2 days if I had a legitimate question and a tone that I would use with any business associate. He doesn't respond on even the simplest request. People are starting to see the truth.

Good thing he got into this thread, not everyone understood the truth. Fortunately, Don has illustrated any previously held opinions without anyone else having to try. The help is appreciated and "most entertaining". The hook can probably be removed now. People who know him on a "at the bar" basis, don't know of his public persona.

- There is no conspiracy.
- If Don was elected, he would act just like this.
- Don uses misdirection and will not tell us (the members who ask) the truth.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Nov 19, 2002, 7:24 AM
Post #146 of 303 (1222 views)
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Re: [Cloudseeder] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You'll get no help from the greenies. They clocked out when they saw the Truth.
Actually, the two moderators for this forum "clocked out" because they have lives that don't revolve around these forums. I was around but I chose to stay out of this one last night, just to see how deep you'd dig the hole. Besides, I know that you don't have any respect for me; you made that pretty obvious with your attitude when I met you at Rantoul.

I perused the USPA Governance Manual and found section 3-1.2.D.2 on page 40. "If appropriate, minimal editing of the biographical sketches by the committee is authorized to comform to the space available and to provide some uniformity of verbiage and presentation." (italics mine) This section seems to allow editing for reasons of grammar and punctuation, which, if read carefully, section 3-1.2.D.3.e also seems to allow for.

I find it very hard to believe that someone who is "for the fun jumpers" would stoop to causing the association he wishes to be on the board of to spend the fun jumpers money (USPA dues) on defending said organization from a frivilous lawsuit. While I don't think much of your online persona and I wasn't real impressed when I met you in person, I do agree with some of your points. You may have had my vote (not that you want it of course) prior to announcing that you'll be suing USPA over some editing. After reading what you plan to do... well, I can vote for less than eight.

Personal attacks and attacks on groups of people are the last resort of someone who has exhausted their argument. It's either attack us or repeat the same tired statements. Your style is not unique anyplace on the net. Here, it's not only not unique but it's also not appreciated. But you knew that before you started posting here; me saying it isn't going to cause you to have an epiphany.

It's the people who AREN'T posting in this thread and participating in your "most excellent entertainment" you should be thinking about... those who are reading but not commenting on your "arguments" and your refusal to post the one thing that would prove your point once and for all.

btw, it's pretty sad when someone tries to start shit on a subject that is totally unrelated to the one at hand. It's even sadder when that someone was not involved in the situation in question, and even sadder when said person has been asked by one of the people who was involved in the situation to stop bringing it up. So, why bring it up? Are you trying to hurt the person who asked you not to? What did she ever do to you to deserve that?


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 19, 2002, 7:32 AM
Post #147 of 303 (1216 views)
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Re: [happythoughts] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Dave, he just likes to argue, that is his "most excellent entertainment".

Actually, I knew this, I used to keep up with wreck-dot and learned that long ago.

My entertainment for the evening (my study breaks) was to see how childish I could make him look and how ludricris I could make his argument look. Just a mind game on my part, that of a 22 year old college student, against a 40 year old "experienced" adult.

The highlight came more then once, when I proved his arguement wrong, proved his logic wrong and had him resorting to more then one personal attack. There must be an Aggie joke in there some where.

I guess deep down, I can really be an asshole sometimes.Tongue


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Nov 19, 2002, 7:53 AM
Post #148 of 303 (1203 views)
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Re: [Cloudseeder] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

Don, just in case you missed my edit of your hissy-fit:

Keep your "sissy" comments to yourself around here and you might not find yourself permanently banned. That being said, keep a civil tongue around here or carry your rant "back across the street."

-Chuck Blue

Beyond that, feel free to cuss all you want, make inane conversation with others and say what's on your mind. Calling an angry little man like myself or a big fucking galloot like Dave Lund a "sissy" is fairly stupid though; we get around quite a bit.


(This post was edited by sangiro on Nov 30, 2002, 10:16 PM)


happythoughts  (D License)

Nov 19, 2002, 7:55 AM
Post #149 of 303 (1197 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

Gotcha brother. Glad you got to tug on that hook for a while. Laugh I think everyone who has perused wreck-dot understands. For people don't know, this has been quite informative about the true nature of the candidate. Most entertaining. Nothing like a shared chuckle.

You're not being an ah, just standing up for yourself a little. Helping some truth come out in the process.

I am a card-carrying asshole, Muff #728. But that is a fun one to be. Laugh

Blue Skies Dave. Cool


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 19, 2002, 8:38 AM
Post #150 of 303 (1183 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

This is not a reply to anyone's specific post.

Jan Meyer sent me a copy of her candidate statement since she knows I get my copy of Parachutist early and she wanted to check for changes.

Jan's statement HAD been edited (the changes were fairly trivial and didn't change the meaning, IMO).

Trivial or not, this violates the letter and spirit of the governance manual.

I haven't seen Don's statement as submitted. I am not taken with Don's style but I do not believe that he is a liar. If he says his statement was changed, then I am inclined to believe him.

I don't see that Don should have to go through an inquisition about his statement; the problem is of USPA's making and the onus is on USPA to fix it.

I belong to a number of organizations and USPA is the only one that conducts its elections in a way that lends itself to suspicion of unfairness. Mostly they have the votes counted by independent auditors.


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