Forums: Skydiving: Wind Tunnels:
Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor

 


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 15, 2007, 10:12 AM
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     Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor  

Okay, I have never once found a handy pocket chart for tipping guidelines that tells you how much to tip your tunnel instructors. What's reasonable to tip for a regular session (no coached time)? What about tipping on league night? Does it make a difference to you as to what you ask to work on?

I want to treat our guys (and STEPH!!) well, but would love to hear what other people (and especially the instructors) out there consider to be reasonable. I spend a lot of time at the tunnel and want to be generous to everyone but it does start to add up when you're spending between $125 and $150 per session BEFORE the tip. On the other hand, I want our instructors to be glad to take league instead of feeling like that's lost time on the schedule to them. So, what's YOUR range?

(I did a search and just found discussions about tipping in general and tipping at the dz, but not at the tunnel. If someone knows of an existing thread on this, please feel free to point me in the right direction.)


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 15, 2007, 1:19 PM
Post #2 of 136 (4601 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

As a former instructor I appreciated tips from wuffos, and usually accepted them, but have refused tips from skydivers and regular tunnel flyers as they are now part of the "family".


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 15, 2007, 1:27 PM
Post #3 of 136 (4594 views)
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     Re: [diablopilot] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

LOL! Is there a secret handshake?

Thanks, JP. I have definitely had instructors attempt to refuse tips before but they work hard as some of us (eh-hem) are slower learners than others. I can't make anybody rich but I at least want them to feel like their time is worth it.


RackJR  (D 27326)

Mar 15, 2007, 1:45 PM
Post #4 of 136 (4585 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

tips are appreciated, Julie. we don't have a chart either. whatever you feel like tipping, we're going to be ok with.
thanks


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 15, 2007, 2:30 PM
Post #5 of 136 (4566 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

I know you're appreciative of whatever the tip is. I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot and make them tell me how much to pay out--I just was wondering about what a good range is. It's not uncommon that we pool our resources when we fly and so it doesn't necessarily indicate who is giving money and who isn't, and that doesn't help clarify.

I realized after I said that I'd particularly like to hear from the instructors that I put them in a tough spot. So if there are other flyers out there who are tipping, what do you think? I'll go first. If I fly 10 minutes, I usually give $20 as a tip. Am I somewhere within a reasonable going rate? What do you do?


keka  (A 49273)

Mar 15, 2007, 4:31 PM
Post #6 of 136 (4539 views)
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     Re: [diablopilot] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
As a former instructor I appreciated tips from wuffos, and usually accepted them, but have refused tips from skydivers and regular tunnel flyers as they are now part of the "family".

that's very nice of you!
eventhough I think it's a way to let you, instructors, know that we appreciated your time teaching us better body positions that will be a plus on our dives.

but at least a BEER you gotta have with me Wink

btw, any of you here coach at Skyventure in Orlando?


nigelh  (D 101473)

Mar 15, 2007, 6:14 PM
Post #7 of 136 (4521 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

We don't take tips here at Bodyflight Bedford but if you want to give us beer then i guess i'm okay with thatWink

Nigel


(This post was edited by nigelh on Mar 15, 2007, 6:15 PM)


sartre

Mar 15, 2007, 8:10 PM
Post #8 of 136 (4498 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

this is me backing away from a can of worms......

.................UnimpressedUnimpressedUnimpressedUnimpressed


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 15, 2007, 10:03 PM
Post #9 of 136 (4484 views)
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     Re: [sartre] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

ROFL! Wink

But that's sort of the whole point, right? It's hard to know . . . can of worms. And nobody else will even jump in with real numbers. *Sigh.* So my poor instructors are going to continue to get what they get unless somebody charges in to help them out here. (While I'm afraid that, secretly, tunnel rats around the world are pointing at me and mouthing "CHEAP!") Unsure


(This post was edited by Jewels on Mar 15, 2007, 10:21 PM)


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 15, 2007, 10:04 PM
Post #10 of 136 (4483 views)
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     Re: [nigelh] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
We don't take tips here at Bodyflight Bedford but if you want to give us beer then i guess i'm okay with thatWink

Nigel

I think I should just look into one of those places that will make weekly deliveries. That would be easier.


sartre

Mar 15, 2007, 10:11 PM
Post #11 of 136 (4482 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Julie, you are a very, very nice person. That's the last I'm going to comment in this thread.

Because I promised I wouldn't bad mouth.Unsure


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 15, 2007, 10:17 PM
Post #12 of 136 (4481 views)
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     Re: [sartre] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Julie, you are a very, very nice person. That's the last I'm going to comment in this thread.

Because I promised I wouldn't bad mouth.Unsure

LaughLaugh We all know better. I have my moments. Blush


sartre

Mar 15, 2007, 10:27 PM
Post #13 of 136 (4477 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Ok, this really is my last post in this thread. But I had a thought that might help you. The sign on the counter says, "Tips appreciated but not expected." Perhaps the instructors that disagree with that sentiment can remove the sign during their shifts. The others will appreciate any tip given but not expect it, so you'll know exactly which people to ask point blank about how much they are expecting to get tipped.

It's just a thought. It could work.Tongue


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 15, 2007, 10:43 PM
Post #14 of 136 (4474 views)
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     Re: [sartre] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

You're so bad!! Angelic That's not what I meant.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 15, 2007, 11:11 PM
Post #15 of 136 (4468 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
tips are appreciated, Julie. we don't have a chart either. whatever you feel like tipping, we're going to be ok with.
thanks
How about nothing you get 14$ per hour plus you day job it's friggen costly enough to flying the tunnel screw tipping you aswell


(This post was edited by Squeak on Mar 15, 2007, 11:14 PM)


RackJR  (D 27326)

Mar 16, 2007, 2:29 AM
Post #16 of 136 (4433 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

the time this particular thread was talking about is an adult league, where the tunnel gets paid for time, and we do coaching for our regular hourly rate of (insert hourly wage here, but around $14 is correct). When you feel like you've spent considerable amounts of time, energy, and certainly money, to acquire the knowledge base you have, you can feel free to spread that around free of charge. In the mean time, i think that it's ok for people to show their appreciation for the TOTALLY FREE COACHING they are receiving in the way of a tip. Our hourly wage is what we get paid to do our best to keep you from breaking your neck, at times a very challenging job.
my freefly coach charged $270 for a 15 minute block. his hourly rate worked out to be $480, since he got a discount for the tunnel time. we don't get paid quite that when we set up coaching, but it's a long way from $14.
if coaching seems too expensive for you, don't pay for it.


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 16, 2007, 6:58 AM
Post #17 of 136 (4391 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Stop, stop, stop! I did not ask because of any one specific situation and it's not my goal to set off the fireworks. I genuinely asked so I could get a feel for what the going rates are. I've never heard a rule of thumb and from what I can tell, tips are all over the board. I'm just trying to find the dollar amount that I can handle and that would be reasonable from the instructors' perspective. Let's just assume, for purposes of this thread, that I want to give a tip whether it's expected or not and I'm looking for the right number. No ulterior motives here, guys. Otherwise, I think I'd rather go back to arguing about what happens if the power fails.


skycat  (D 25740)

Mar 16, 2007, 9:50 AM
Post #18 of 136 (4367 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Does it count that I understand what you are saying. Wink

If someone goes above and beyond their actual job duties to ensure you have a good time or have a good experience you want to show your appreciation. We tipped Mike when we were in LV, because he went well above the call of duty to ensure we had a good time, I beleive we tipped $20 for 15 min of flight time (or was that spin and flop time, you still really need to see the video).


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 16, 2007, 9:55 AM
Post #19 of 136 (4365 views)
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     Re: [skycat] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

LOL--YES, it absolutely counts!! Thanks. That's the kind of information that is helpful, too.

(Definitely want to see the video. Can we show it on the big screen at the front desk???)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 18, 2007, 12:42 AM
Post #20 of 136 (4241 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
if coaching seems too expensive for you, don't pay for it.
Exactly and if $14 per hour is insuficeint for you and what you think is required of you, find alternative employment. you coose to be there for the money offered


stormywinters

Mar 18, 2007, 5:49 AM
Post #21 of 136 (4220 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

 No one should choose an alternative employment. There is a big difference in pay as an instructor, pay for a coach, and tip for your instructor. You should tip your instructor, its a possitive way to say "I like what you did for us in that last session". Everyone says "thanks", but a tip says 'I want you to do more of that" Even if it is staying out of the way and not becoming a distraction. Tunnel instructors can try an take over the session, change the direction and screw up a good plan(maybe a plan to have fun).$10 or $20 bucks teaches the crew what you like. Sure you could tell them if your that type to talk it out, but a tip works for the non-talkers. Yet, if that tunnel instructor asks, then teaches you as much as a coach would and gets you over obsticles, then you should tip them like a coach. And for you non tippers, its okay to not tip, you just want to know (if you are local), if you dont take care of your bar tender then you just get the regular!! Dont take it to serious, everyone prefers a different size wave!


(This post was edited by stormywinters on Mar 18, 2007, 5:54 AM)


dragon2  (D 101989)

Mar 18, 2007, 5:57 AM
Post #22 of 136 (4212 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

I'm guessing it's a cultural thing too. Over here, tips are not expected, and most you'll get is a beer. Coaches and windtunnel are expensive enough here too Crazy I guess it's easier to tip when you're paying half what we are Unsure


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 18, 2007, 7:09 AM
Post #23 of 136 (4198 views)
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     Re: [stormywinters] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
No one should choose an alternative employment. There is a big difference in pay as an instructor, pay for a coach, and tip for your instructor. You should tip your instructor, its a possitive way to say "I like what you did for us in that last session". Everyone says "thanks", but a tip says 'I want you to do more of that" Even if it is staying out of the way and not becoming a distraction. Tunnel instructors can try an take over the session, change the direction and screw up a good plan(maybe a plan to have fun).$10 or $20 bucks teaches the crew what you like. Sure you could tell them if your that type to talk it out, but a tip works for the non-talkers. Yet, if that tunnel instructor asks, then teaches you as much as a coach would and gets you over obsticles, then you should tip them like a coach. And for you non tippers, its okay to not tip, you just want to know (if you are local), if you dont take care of your bar tender then you just get the regular!! Dont take it to serious, everyone prefers a different size wave!
Bullshit, you are hired and paid to provide a service. if you are not happy with the money piss off and find more gainfull employment.
Tipping should only EVER be for something OUTSTANDING and above normal practice for the job discription. treating ANY customer less because they dont tip shows how porrly you are suited to the job.

As for the 10-20 buck teaches the crew what you like, do your friggin job properly and make certain the customer knows what they are paying for. that way the customer pays for what is offered and the staff gets paid for what they are hired to do.


(This post was edited by Squeak on Mar 18, 2007, 7:11 AM)


RackJR  (D 27326)

Mar 18, 2007, 8:19 AM
Post #24 of 136 (4185 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

it must be nice to hide behind anonymity.

you certainly have a lot to say about this, considering you don't know the situation, don't know the people involved, and have not worked as a tunnel instructor.

In reply to:
Tipping should only EVER be for something OUTSTANDING and above normal practice for the job discription. treating ANY customer less because they dont tip shows how porrly you are suited to the job.
Quote:


what the original post was asking about was exactly that. coaching from the tunnel rat is something far above the normal job practice.

this was a question posed by one of the SVCO adult league customers, a sincere request to gain some information and perspective. most of the people who come to adult league are not skydivers, and don't have a background with how much coaching can cost. nothing in anyone's replies, except yours, involves swearing, denigrating anyone's job or how they do it, or insulting them personally. nice job, turning the mood nasty. and proving, once again, no matter how simple you try to keep it, someone on dz.com is going to job it up.


(This post was edited by RackJR on Mar 18, 2007, 8:22 AM)


brettski74  (C 3197)

Mar 18, 2007, 9:29 AM
Post #25 of 136 (4164 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Bullshit, you are hired and paid to provide a service. if you are not happy with the money piss off and find more gainfull employment.
Tipping should only EVER be for something OUTSTANDING and above normal practice for the job discription. treating ANY customer less because they dont tip shows how porrly you are suited to the job.

I agree with your general sentiment about tipping, but the culture in North America is different, and you're fighting a losing battle if you're going to try to change that. It's also worth noting that the instructor being referred to here is not being paid by the tunnel for training, but for safety - to stop you before you do anything stupid that might hurt yourself. In that regard, he/she is more like a lifeguard at a swimming pool. If the lifeguard also offered to teach you to swim, then that's above and beyond duty, and that's essentially what's being discussed here.

In reply to:
As for the 10-20 buck teaches the crew what you like, do your friggin job properly and make certain the customer knows what they are paying for. that way the customer pays for what is offered and the staff gets paid for what they are hired to do.

While there is value in tunnel training from the tunnel rat, if he/she expects to be paid for it, then he/she should say so up front, otherwise you're doing it out of the goodness of your heart as far as the customer knows. If the customer chooses to pay you anyway, then great. If not, then so be it.

It should still be perfectly acceptable for someone who wants to fly in the tunnel and do their own thing without coaching to be able to do so - assuming that they have some basic skill level to begin with.


(This post was edited by brettski74 on Mar 18, 2007, 9:54 AM)


stormywinters

Mar 18, 2007, 9:41 AM
Post #26 of 136 (1249 views)
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     Re: [brettski74] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

 Her ? was how much should a tipper tip, NOT should you tip. Like I said its okay to not tip. Its just a way of letting your instructor know you apppreciate their efforts, and to keep doing what they are doing. Tips are NOT exspected, but they give the instructor motivation to keep workin hard. You dont have to tip. Its okay if she wants to, she is not giving away your money, so let it go! You must just be a NON TIPPER. Thats cool!!! No one cares what YOU give. Dont get worked up fellas. This wave may just be too big for you. By the way..... no one is going to find other work!!


brettski74  (C 3197)

Mar 18, 2007, 10:10 AM
Post #27 of 136 (1239 views)
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     Re: [stormywinters] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
was how much should a tipper tip, NOT should you tip.

Yes - you're right. That was the original question, but you were the one who brought up that people should tip - your words, not mine.

In reply to:
You dont have to tip. Its okay if she wants to, she is not giving away your money, so let it go! You must just be a NON TIPPER. Thats cool!!!

Your original post gave the opposite impression. So does your emphasizing of the words "non tipper" in this post.

In reply to:
This wave may just be too big for you.

I'm not sure I understand this talk about waves. Are you a surfer, perhaps?

In reply to:
By the way..... no one is going to find other work!!

I agree, but I see how my original post may have been misconstrued. I've edited it to hopefully more accurately convey what I was trying to say.


(This post was edited by brettski74 on Mar 18, 2007, 10:58 AM)


stormywinters

Mar 18, 2007, 10:32 AM
Post #28 of 136 (1229 views)
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     Re: [brettski74] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

When I say you should tip, I was talking to Jewels, cause she wants to tip and people are saying it is wrong. Its not right or wrong, its what ever you feel like doing. As like a tunnel instructor who may or may not offer free coaching, it is their call, and people that get it will show their appreciation. I am a tunnel instructor, and I try to give great service to everyone tip or no tip I will work hard for them! I think life is like surfing, and everyone has their idea of what is the perfect wave. Like romance, there is someone for everyone! You say shes a 6, I say shes a 10! I'm just tryin to get a little off subject, if you follow!


(This post was edited by stormywinters on Mar 18, 2007, 10:34 AM)


brettski74  (C 3197)

Mar 18, 2007, 11:00 AM
Post #29 of 136 (1208 views)
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     Re: [stormywinters] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Then I think we can agree. Smile


stormywinters

Mar 18, 2007, 12:04 PM
Post #30 of 136 (1193 views)
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     Re: [brettski74] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

  I just think that tunnel training is at its best form. Everyone is freeflyin, doing lots of freefly training, building nice formations, teaching new drills and finding the tunnels are producing amazing flyers. The tunnel instructors see all drills, replicate spots that are missed and take a lot of pounding. Life gaurds sit in a chair and makes a save once a year. These guys are spotting heavy falls, coaching, pushing people out of their comfort zone, training, while putting lots of wear and tear on the spotters shoulders, back and knees. This is beyond the "CALL OF DUTY!" These guys are spending years doing the rough stuff, to obtain the amount of hour$ watching, to get to become good coaches, and they want to do this! To help the industry grow. The training is all changing, the old Advanced level is now Intermediate, and there is a new Advanced. That lots of people want and some just want to go fun fly. Tunnel "RATS" do a lot of training behind closed door$. So, when someone like "Jewels" want to tip, and give the guy a push to keep going, just to say "HEY, if I never get to go in with you again, keep doing THAT what you are doing. People Need to see THAT!" I would think SHE is helping, and if I wanted no training, than I would NOT tip. But, I would still say "NICE ONE JELEWS!" Good looking out!Unsure


(This post was edited by stormywinters on Mar 18, 2007, 12:27 PM)


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 18, 2007, 12:44 PM
Post #31 of 136 (1176 views)
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     Re: [stormywinters] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

LOL--well, thank you. I am just trying to get it right. My instructors DO put out a lot of effort for me and I appreciate it. I notice when they give 110% (which is more often than not), and that happens before they ever know whether they're going to get a tip or how much it might be. So, while I don't necessarily know that I can pay $20 every week when we have league, I am going to make it a point to tip SOMEthing. If it's not $20 or more, please don't be offended. It's my way of trying to be consistent while giving something I can afford.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 18, 2007, 12:47 PM
Post #32 of 136 (1176 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
No one should choose an alternative employment. There is a big difference in pay as an instructor, pay for a coach, and tip for your instructor. You should tip your instructor, its a possitive way to say "I like what you did for us in that last session". Everyone says "thanks", but a tip says 'I want you to do more of that" Even if it is staying out of the way and not becoming a distraction. Tunnel instructors can try an take over the session, change the direction and screw up a good plan(maybe a plan to have fun).$10 or $20 bucks teaches the crew what you like. Sure you could tell them if your that type to talk it out, but a tip works for the non-talkers. Yet, if that tunnel instructor asks, then teaches you as much as a coach would and gets you over obsticles, then you should tip them like a coach. And for you non tippers, its okay to not tip, you just want to know (if you are local), if you dont take care of your bar tender then you just get the regular!! Dont take it to serious, everyone prefers a different size wave!
Bullshit, you are hired and paid to provide a service. if you are not happy with the money piss off and find more gainfull employment.
Tipping should only EVER be for something OUTSTANDING and above normal practice for the job discription. treating ANY customer less because they dont tip shows how porrly you are suited to the job.

As for the 10-20 buck teaches the crew what you like, do your friggin job properly and make certain the customer knows what they are paying for. that way the customer pays for what is offered and the staff gets paid for what they are hired to do.

Agreed.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 18, 2007, 12:49 PM
Post #33 of 136 (1175 views)
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     Re: [brettski74] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Quote:
While there is value in tunnel training from the tunnel rat, if he/she expects to be paid for it, then he/she should say so up front, otherwise you're doing it out of the goodness of your heart as far as the customer knows. If the customer chooses to pay you anyway, then great. If not, then so be it.

Also an excellent point.


RackJR  (D 27326)

Mar 18, 2007, 12:56 PM
Post #34 of 136 (1169 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

so after all that Julie......

tips are appreciated, Julie. we don't have a chart either. whatever you feel like tipping, we're going to be ok with.
thanks


and squeek, when i say "whatever", that can mean "zero", and i'll still be ok with it.


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 18, 2007, 1:03 PM
Post #35 of 136 (1165 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Crazy Okay. I'm good with that.

Thanks, guys.


stormywinters

Mar 18, 2007, 1:35 PM
Post #36 of 136 (1153 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

 Jewels you should not tip every time. Tip when you feel overly excited about your session! When you want too, only then!


(This post was edited by stormywinters on Mar 18, 2007, 2:02 PM)


sartre

Mar 18, 2007, 2:10 PM
Post #37 of 136 (1145 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Quote:
make certain the customer knows what they are paying for. that way the customer pays for what is offered and the staff gets paid for what they are hired to do.

There you have it. The root of the problem, as I see it. I had no idea I was expecting something for free from any of the instructors. Let alone causing resentment because of it.

Lesson I learned? I can't afford the tunnel right now. I'd rather not go than be perceived as trying to take advantage and get something for nothing.

Sorry to any SVCO people that I may have offended at any point in regards to the issue of tipping. I am, and always have been, very impressed by the skill, demeanor, and professionalism of almost every employee there. I'll be happy to fly again when the finances are back under control.Smile


stormywinters

Mar 18, 2007, 2:45 PM
Post #38 of 136 (1135 views)
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     Re: [sartre] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

I dont work for SVCO, and I dont believe there is any resentment. Just friendly advice that was asked for!)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 18, 2007, 4:24 PM
Post #39 of 136 (1115 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

This is the way i see service intdustries (tunnel supervision/coaching is a service)
there is a minimum standard that should be met by everyone working there. that minimum should be met at ALL times by the staff, to do anything less is tant ammount to stealing from the boss. You are paid to do a particular job well, not paid to do it half arsed.


Anything above that minimum standard is choice.
Now if you start out in a manner with people which is above that standard, then you should maintain the standard that YOU have set with these people. To lower that standard for some and not for others is in my way of thinking is wrong.

If you set a higher standard of service based on tipping I think this is also wrong, because what you are actually doing is offing a higher level of service (a different product) for a different fee structure.
This is nothing wrong with doing that but be honest and up front about it and charge people accorningly AT THE START.





Now as for tipping in general, if I were in somthing like the league, the point at which I would be most likely to tip is at or towards the end of the season, not an a weekly/fornightly basis.
If i have had a great time throughout the season I would look after the people who looked after me.


Bowen  (C 37322)

Mar 19, 2007, 5:46 AM
Post #40 of 136 (1079 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
No one should choose an alternative employment. There is a big difference in pay as an instructor, pay for a coach, and tip for your instructor. You should tip your instructor, its a possitive way to say "I like what you did for us in that last session". Everyone says "thanks", but a tip says 'I want you to do more of that" Even if it is staying out of the way and not becoming a distraction. Tunnel instructors can try an take over the session, change the direction and screw up a good plan(maybe a plan to have fun).$10 or $20 bucks teaches the crew what you like. Sure you could tell them if your that type to talk it out, but a tip works for the non-talkers. Yet, if that tunnel instructor asks, then teaches you as much as a coach would and gets you over obsticles, then you should tip them like a coach. And for you non tippers, its okay to not tip, you just want to know (if you are local), if you dont take care of your bar tender then you just get the regular!! Dont take it to serious, everyone prefers a different size wave!
Bullshit, you are hired and paid to provide a service. if you are not happy with the money piss off and find more gainfull employment.
Tipping should only EVER be for something OUTSTANDING and above normal practice for the job discription. treating ANY customer less because they dont tip shows how porrly you are suited to the job.

As for the 10-20 buck teaches the crew what you like, do your friggin job properly and make certain the customer knows what they are paying for. that way the customer pays for what is offered and the staff gets paid for what they are hired to do.




It all depends on what was done. If the instructor is teaching you how to fly then a tip is definitely appreciated, how much is up to you, unfortunately (from my experience) most skydivers looking to get “coaching “ from me while I am working do not tip a dime and I see this all day long with other instructors as well. Now if you have your own coach and his is coaching you then I don’t think the instructor should get a tip. He is doing his job, looking after your safety. The tunnel doesn’t pay well and yeah we get fly time but the job comes with the price of injuries (small and large) and even permanent injuries. It is a very physical job and that takes it toll over a few years, this is coming from experience.

It is a job, many of us love our job and we love to teach but when it comes down to it, our job description is safety, not teaching, we help out because we want to, it’s our passion.

My range? Anything is nice. A few dollars to what ever, it just shows that you care about me, the person who cares that you learn and get better.

-Bowen


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 19, 2007, 6:17 AM
Post #41 of 136 (1075 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Now as for tipping in general,

in general, by definition, tipping is voluntary

once it becomes "expected", then I don't go to those places - once I see a tip jar with a big old label, guarantee nothing will go into that jar

Specifically, I've never seen a tunnel attendent act like it's expected or an entitlement - I think that's cool. We've given cash, and we've also just bought lunch for the staff, etc. Never have we felt pressured. (If I ever do, I'd never tip at any location again).

That's what wrong with restaurants - it's expected.

Edit: I like the life guard analogy. If you hire a tunnel attendent to perform as a coach, then you should pay extra and it should be arranged.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Mar 19, 2007, 6:19 AM)


Scubadivemaster  (D License)

Mar 19, 2007, 8:16 AM
Post #42 of 136 (1060 views)
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     Re: [rehmwa] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

I think your use of the term "attendant" highlights the confusion and disagreement about tipping tunnel employees.

If the tunnel employee who is assigned to our session is indeed assigned as an "attendant", I expect him to do the job of an attendant, and no more. He or she can spot for us as we enter the tunnel, make the decision whether to give us more air if we ask for it, and jump in to rescue us if we are in danger of hurting ourselves. I expect basic verbal instruction on the rules of the tunnel, and how not to hurt myself. That is all part of the job, and I'm not tipping for that any more than I tip the cashier at a restaurant. Anything additional that employee does, when he could just be standing in the door watching, will begin to earn him brownie points with me, redeemable for tips or beer later. Smile

However, if the employee is assigned as "an instructor", which is included in the cost of the tunnel time, then I expect to get instruction as part of that cost. I expect the instructor to be qualified and enthusiastic and deliver service with a smile. If I feel like the instructor has gone above and beyond what would normally be expected, I can elect to give him a tip.

I think that if this role were more clearly defined, we would all know better when that employee has gone beyond his required job duties. Perhaps a big sign on the wall that says:

Your tunnel attendant will: spot, etc
but WILL NOT: (whatever)
If you feel you need more assistance, coaches are available for an additional fee.

I have done tunnel time where I though I was paying for an attendant, and ended up with darn near as much coaching as I got when I paid for coach time. I certainly did not expect that, and it was more service than the service for which I had paid. While I felt no obligation to pay for this additional service, I certainly wanted to. I was excited that I had learned a lot more than I thought I was going to, and was happy to tip a little extra.

Jewels, as no one wants to actually answer your question, and give you any hard numbers, I think we gave the instructor $50 on that hour session. Again, the whole group was really excited about the session, and felt he had given us lot more than he had to, which made the whole session more successful and fun.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 19, 2007, 8:23 AM
Post #43 of 136 (1057 views)
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     Re: [Scubadivemaster] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

I disagree, your note is exactly in line with my position.

AND you said it perfectly "I certainly did not expect that, and it was more service than the service for which I had paid. While I felt no obligation to pay for this additional service, I certainly wanted to. I was excited that I had learned a lot more than I thought I was going to, and was happy to tip a little extra. "

this scenario, you had a classy attendant


Scubadivemaster  (D License)

Mar 19, 2007, 8:39 AM
Post #44 of 136 (1055 views)
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     Re: [rehmwa] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

I said all that and didn't say I was agreeing with you? Damn it, all those years of schooling and still can't communicate worth a damn. Unsure

Like the lifeguard analogy, your use of the word "attendant" just rang true with me, highlighting the different concepts of the roles of those employees that the customers may have. Not trying to argue at all. Just the opposite.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 19, 2007, 8:48 AM
Post #45 of 136 (1051 views)
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     Re: [Scubadivemaster] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

I'm a dork - You said I "Highlighted the confusion"

me english is not so....elegant..... as you people be sayink

I believe it's my communication skills that are lacking - yours are just fine


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Mar 19, 2007, 8:50 AM)


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 19, 2007, 10:53 AM
Post #46 of 136 (1026 views)
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     Re: [rehmwa] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

LOL--I think you're BOTH communicating well. And thanks, too, Scubadivemaster, for an actual number! I can understand why a lot of people might not want to name a price but it's nice to know what others are doing. Smile


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 19, 2007, 1:53 PM
Post #47 of 136 (1010 views)
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     Re: [Bowen] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Quote:
unfortunately (from my experience) most skydivers looking to get “coaching “ from me while I am working do not tip a dime and I see this all day long with other instructors as well.

Why is it "unfortunate"? If you feel that way, don't coach. Period. Otherwise you are wrong for EXPECTING to be compensated for "helping out".


stormywinters

Mar 19, 2007, 4:59 PM
Post #48 of 136 (982 views)
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     Re: [diablopilot] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

 Sounds like a lot of people need to learn better communication.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 19, 2007, 5:29 PM
Post #49 of 136 (975 views)
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     Re: [stormywinters] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Sounds like a lot of people need to learn better communication.

Really? JP is an official/registered trademark/do not copy IBA instructor just speaking his mind.


Bowen  (C 37322)

Mar 19, 2007, 5:53 PM
Post #50 of 136 (970 views)
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     Re: [diablopilot] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Quote:
unfortunately (from my experience) most skydivers looking to get “coaching “ from me while I am working do not tip a dime and I see this all day long with other instructors as well.

Why is it "unfortunate"? If you feel that way, don't coach. Period. Otherwise you are wrong for EXPECTING to be compensated for "helping out".


The reason I said that is because most of the time it is expected of me to coach. I cant tell you how many times I’ve seen people asked if they wanted to buy a coaching package and they say “isn’t the instructor in there with me? Then why pay extra.” For over a year and a half I offered free coaching on my days off to anyone that wanted to learn, I now charge a very small fee but for the longest time I didn’t. I didn’t charge because I love coaching and seeing people learn.


stormywinters

Mar 19, 2007, 6:50 PM
Post #51 of 136 (1181 views)
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     Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

I'm just pickin on ya JP, I'm sure Bowen wants to hear your opinion, he may even like it rough.Wink


RackJR  (D 27326)

Mar 19, 2007, 7:10 PM
Post #52 of 136 (1174 views)
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     Re: [diablopilot] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

try not to put words into somone else's post jp. Bowen didn't say he was expecting a tip. he said it was unfortunate that people expect coaching, which he's ok to give because he loves to teach, and it would be nice if they could recognize that he's going over and above his job description to help them out, which they typically don't. no where in his post did he say that he was expecting a tip.

i know it might seem radical to you, but sometimes it is nice if people take care of you, when you take care of them. and if my memory is correct, i think his post also said that even a few dollars is a great acknowledgement of gratitude.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 19, 2007, 10:57 PM
Post #53 of 136 (1152 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
try not to put words into somone else's post jp. Bowen didn't say he was expecting a tip. he said it was unfortunate that people expect coaching, .
See this is where the problem starts, better product description will prevent this.


RossDagley  (C 950932)

Mar 20, 2007, 5:32 AM
Post #54 of 136 (1137 views)
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     Re: Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

The solution might be to not tip with cash, but with "goodies" - we always appreciate a box of krispy kreme donuts as a thank you for whatever Cool

Beers cool to - often I've sat down with "customers" after a long day and had a cool beer to relax and chat. There's lots of ways to say "thanks".


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 20, 2007, 6:41 AM
Post #55 of 136 (1130 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
he said it was unfortunate that people expect coaching, which he's ok to give because he loves to teach, and it would be nice if they could recognize that he's going over and above his job description to help them out, which they typically don't.

I can't speak for other tunnels, but I would guess that one reason people may expect coaching at SVCO is that it's what we've received since day one, without special request. That's a nice thing. In fact, we don't necessarily just get "coaching" from whoever comes into the tunnel with us. It's not uncommon that the person driving is watching and offering suggestions as to how to make something work. I know Jason (and most everyone else, at one time or another) has done that for me. Smile When coaching is the norm, that becomes what you expect.

I know SVCO is going to a new program where we can buy coached time from the instructors. I think that the tunnel might need to educate its customers about the changes if it means that when you buy regular minutes you're just going to get the "attendant" version of an instructor. Otherwise, past practice leaves it open for people to assume that they'll receive coaching any time they go.

On a side note, but back to the original topic, my inclination to tip at all will plunge if I just have someone standing in the door, waiting to make a rescue, as opposed to giving me real instruction.

I also just paid for a membership to buy minutes at a discounted rate, but if those minutes are going to be "you're on your own" minutes, I'll forego that expense altogether in the future. It's not worth it. That also means that my cost has gone up for what I perceived to be the same service (membership minutes and coached minutes) when it was our understanding that the membership format was to help the cost go down for frequent flyers.

Anyway, I digress. None of that changes my willingness to tip for coaching, but just make sure that if the tunnel's "product" changes that the instructors expect tipping practices to change, too.


RackJR  (D 27326)

Mar 20, 2007, 7:56 AM
Post #56 of 136 (1121 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Jewels i think there's a few things that have contributed at SVCO. you're definitely right that we have all been giving free coaching to the adult league. that program was started with the goal of showing non skydivers (or lower experience skydivers) how much fun the tunnel can be, how quickly you can learn, etc. so that those people would be good advertising for us when they talked to friends/coworkers/relatives/whoever. as instructors working with that league, i think we were all very ok with the fact that people might not tip, probably wouldn't, because the experience base just wasn't there to know that typically in skydiving, if you want coaching, you pay for it. i think the tipping that did happen was growing awareness that 1. we're working hard for you guys and 2. sometimes what you get from one instructor can be very different from what you get from another. to my knowledge, none of us were ever expecting a tip from the league but just like when we get tips from regular classes, it was nice. i think for all of you in that league, it will highlight the difference between flying on your own (no coach), and getting coaching.

i think you're right about that being different at other tunnels. when i was going to orlando or perris, before working at SVCO, those tunnels had a coaching program in place, and the tunnel instructor, for the most part, just kept us safe. as a tunnel, they had some sharp contrasts from here, though. huge skydiving communities, and lots and lots of coaches.

to my knowledge, adult league will continue as it has in the past. no one there, myself included, was ruffled enough to want to change anything. the coaching program is something we've been talking about, in some form or other, since before the tunnel opened, and this is just how long it took to get everyone together on it. you're right that people do need to understand the value of coaching, and that most of the responsibility for educating them falls to us. as far as the membership you bought, i don't think you'll have to worry about one of us just standing in the door when you fly, unless you tell us to get out. Wink all of the adult league-ers have been great customers, and i think coaching will come as often as you want it.

for others reading the thread, there have been 4 tunnel instructors who've posted. unanimously, we've said that we don't come to work expecting a tip, only that it's nice when it happens, it doesn't have to be money, and not tipping is ok. Julie wanted a number as a guidepost, which it doesn't seem like anyone (me included) wants to give. i like what Joe had to say. tip what you want when you want, when you feel good about the session and only then.


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 20, 2007, 8:11 AM
Post #57 of 136 (1118 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

I'm not worried about coaching during league. (And, btw, thanks for saying "non-skydivers" instead of "whuffos" because I think I'm now the only one who qualifies for that title except for perhaps one other person who is there periodically. Smile Does it count if I don't WANT to be a whuffo????)

Anyway, I was thinking more of the extra time we buy during the week when I was talking about coaching and whether it's going to come with the time purchased or not--I just didn't actually SAY that part, I guess. Sorry! No worries; it will work out just fine. And as for kicking you out of the tunnel, I'm far more likely to haul you in and expect you to figure out how to fly at my slow windspeed. Crazy (I'm working on it, I'm working on it!! The weight belt helps.)

I also appreciate the general consensus that you (collectively) don't expect a tip but that you appreciate it when it happens. I DO understand that and I do not necessarily feel compelled to give a tip at all or to give a certain amount. It's all good. I hope that the other tunnel customers who might have been watching the thread without joining in the discussion have taken something from the discussion, too. I'm just glad for the input.


skycat  (D 25740)

Mar 20, 2007, 8:12 AM
Post #58 of 136 (1117 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Quote:
we don't come to work expecting a tip, only that it's nice when it happens, it doesn't have to be money,

Julie,

From past experience Starbucks on a crazy busy Saturday makes the boys VERY happy. Wink


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 20, 2007, 8:20 AM
Post #59 of 136 (1114 views)
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     Re: [skycat] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

LOL--Okay, you'll have to give me a list of what everybody likes. All I specifically remember is that Brad doesn't drink coffee. Wink

I'm surprised you didn't go for my tip-with-lottery-tickets idea. Then it really IS "tipping whatever!" (And just for the record, I wouldn't do that! Angelic)


pope  (D 19947)

Mar 20, 2007, 12:31 PM
Post #60 of 136 (1088 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Alright Mr. Pink - what level tunnel instructor/coach are YOU, and WHICH TUNNEL DO YOU/HAVE YOU WORKED AT? I suppose you're one of those "I've been here for a half-hour and she's only refilled my coffee 3 times!"

In reply to:
Bullshit, you are hired and paid to provide a service.


Absolutely. as INSTRUCTORS, my understanding is that they are paid to keep people safe in the tunnel. Have you ever gone through Instructor training or know what it involves? Do you know what kind of physical strength is needed to be a tunnel instructor or make a difficult spot?

In reply to:
Tipping should only EVER be for something OUTSTANDING and above normal practice for the job discription. treating ANY customer less because they dont tip shows how porrly you are suited to the job.

In league flights, the instructor is getting paid to be an INSTRUCTOR, not a COACH, yet they're performing both duties. Does that not qualify as "above and beyond" to you?

Your implication that ANY tunnel instructor treats ANY customer less than expected of them is totally inflammatory and dead wrong. ALL the tunnel instructors I've met take their jobs VERY seriously, and do it well.

In reply to:
As for the 10-20 buck teaches the crew what you like, do your friggin job properly and make certain the customer knows what they are paying for. that way the customer pays for what is offered and the staff gets paid for what they are hired to do.

Isn't that the job of the CONSUMER? Failing that, it's certainly not the duty of the INSTRUCTOR - by the time the customer is filtered down to the Instructor, they should be WELL aware of what they're getting for their money. Should the instructor also be there in the parking lot, waiting to lay their flight suit on any puddles that might muddy up the customer's shoes?

My personal opinion is that:
INSTRUCTORS should be tipped.
COACHES (who are getting paid standard coaching rates) should not--GENERALLY.
INSTUCTOR/COACHES DEFINITELY should be getting tipped!

pope


Scubadivemaster  (D License)

Mar 20, 2007, 1:12 PM
Post #61 of 136 (1078 views)
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     Re: [pope] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Again, though you emphasize INSTRUCTOR, it seems that the role you describe being more of attendant. (Not trying to be argumentative when I say that).

If I am not hijacking the thread, can some of you tunnel instructors tell us what you feel your "job" is as an "instructor" who is paid to be in the tunnel or antechamber during our tunnel time? Perhaps if we get a feel for what it is that you instructors believe your role to be, we will know that you are going above and beyond. I really think that there is a misunderstanding here as to what that role is.

I'd also be interested in hearing what the tunnel owners/managers believe their instructors roles to be. Do the owners think that they are paying the instructors to be teachers or lifeguards?

Again, please, I am making an honest effort to unravel what I think is a serious misunderstanding, not trying to be a jackass. From the responses generated by this thread, I think the instructors would like us to know this, and I think I would feel much more comfortable knowing exactly what to expect out of the instructors. I know what to expect from the coaches, as they tell me exactly when I make my deal with them.

Jewels, if I am leading this too far away, tell me, and I will move it to another thread.


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 20, 2007, 1:21 PM
Post #62 of 136 (1073 views)
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     Re: [Scubadivemaster] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Actually, I think the questions are intertwined with one another and I agree--I think there is a disconnect between what tunnel goers and tunnel instructors/coaches believe their roles to be. As far as I'M concerned, it's a perfectly legitimate part of the discussion. As you point out, what is "above and beyond" all depends upon where the baseline is.

It's what I alluded to earlier today--we (SVCO flyers, anyway) have always received what is probably considered "coaching" from our "instructors," so we think that's the norm. It makes sense to me to talk about this hand-in-hand with tipping.


(This post was edited by Jewels on Mar 20, 2007, 1:36 PM)


RackJR  (D 27326)

Mar 20, 2007, 3:16 PM
Post #63 of 136 (1055 views)
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     Re: [Scubadivemaster] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

when i instruct for return fliers, my job is to keep them safe. sometimes, that will include showing them the correct way to do something, because that makes my job easier (fewer spots) and keeps them safer. an excellent example would be when a person is trying to learn to stand up from a back fly position. if they arch while doing that, they'll launch themselves up into the wall. in that situation, it serves us both for me to show them how to do that, and give them a bit of help while they learn. that particular transition is one that stands out in my mind, although there are a couple others where the safest thing for everyone is for me to give you the tools you need to do it safely. although that is "coaching", i think of it more as lowering the wear and tear on me. for the majority of other things you'll learn in the tunnel, if you learn it from someone else, and not from bouncing around until you figured it out on your own, you've been coached. our job as tunnel instructors is only to keep you safe. that may also include telling you to (please) not do something like you're trying to do until you get proper coaching.


Paulipod  (B 1234)

Mar 20, 2007, 3:17 PM
Post #64 of 136 (1053 views)
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     Re: [Scubadivemaster] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I'd also be interested in hearing what the tunnel owners/managers believe their instructors roles to be. Do the owners think that they are paying the instructors to be teachers or lifeguards?

Personally - I hire instructors to perform both safety and coaching tasks. At all times a focus on safety comes first... and we only charge for coaching when an additional staff member (and hence more cost) are present in the tunnel.

For basic tuition (where the instructor has feet on the floor and spotting is not compromised) then they are free to give tuition. Sitting out afterwards / watching the DVD / debreif etc is extra time and hence charged for.

I am always surprised by the tipping debate (probably cus I am from a culture where it is never expected)
For me - it makes sense if ANY person in your mind makes a positive impact and you like what they did... to give them a bonus is a nice gift.... no mattter what their job!

Coach / Instructor / receptionist / cleaner / (tunnel ownerTongue) whichever - if you like the service say thanks in whichever way you like... if the service was normal - great... if bad - give feedback

By the way - a big thanks to those folks who have bought Kripsy Kreme doughnuts for us in the recent weeks! as Ross mentioned that is by FAR the best tipLaughLaugh


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 20, 2007, 3:32 PM
Post #65 of 136 (1047 views)
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     Re: [pope] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

you would benifit from a dictionary, if you are going to use specific term at leeast use them in their correct context.
And I stand by my acertion that people need to be told exactly what they are paying for.
Instructors, instruct,
Coaches, coach
Safety attendants, attent to safety, the title may not sit well with the people there but i could not care less.


sartre

Mar 20, 2007, 6:00 PM
Post #66 of 136 (1027 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Since it was never made clear that there were differences in the level of involvement of the person in the tunnel with us, it once again highlights the problem with communication and customer service.

I am told one thing by one coach, something different by another. Then the once coach gets angry because I am going by what I was told. That coach takes it out on me.

Hardly seems fair to blame the customer for not knowing what the tunnel policy is.

Up to now I have had nothing but admiration and appreciation for the guys that have been in the tunnel with me. I will admit I have wondered why some just stand there in the doorway and talk back and forth to each other (reading lips). I assumed this was someone who wasn't interested in doing anything but passing the time and collecting a paycheck. Now the way it has been explained by you and some others certainly makes sense, but it would have been nice for that to have been communicated to the CUSTOMER base, which has, incidentally, been a very good source of advertisement for the tunnel.

I've noticed that when we are flying league, and someone is showing a potential customer around, the screen flashes, "Adult League". As you've said, it's a nice advertisement, especially since some of the adult leaguers are at a level that is pretty amazing for the average passer by.

However, when we've always received a certain level of service, and then it is suddenly performed with a level of resentment that is not explained to us, it leaves a very bad taste in your mouth.

None of was looking for special treatment. But what you say behind closed doors isn't exactly the same as what you say here on the internet, Jason. Either way, I find both really disappointing.


brettski74  (C 3197)

Mar 20, 2007, 7:16 PM
Post #67 of 136 (1014 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
you would benifit from a dictionary, if you are going to use specific term at leeast use them in their correct context.
And I stand by my acertion that people need to be told exactly what they are paying for.
Instructors, instruct,
Coaches, coach
Safety attendants, attent to safety, the title may not sit well with the people there but i could not care less.

Yes - that's part of the problem. At the SkyVenture tunnels, the term instructor seems to be used to refer to a guy who's responsibility is safety, not instruction. Someone who does instruction is called a coach. At least, that's what seemed the case at SVAZ, and from the discussion here and elsewhere, that seems consistent with other SkyVenture tunnels. Once you're aware of that, it's a little easier to follow how things work.


Stumpy  (C 104288)

Mar 20, 2007, 8:33 PM
Post #68 of 136 (1000 views)
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     Re: [Paulipod] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
By the way - a big thanks to those folks who have bought Kripsy Kreme doughnuts for us in the recent weeks! as Ross mentioned that is by FAR the best tipLaughLaugh

You going to increase the power of the tunnel again soon Paul? LaughLaugh


pope  (D 19947)

Mar 20, 2007, 8:48 PM
Post #69 of 136 (996 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
you would benifit from a dictionary, if you are going to use specific term at leeast use them in their correct context.

You are absolutely correct. I have found dictionaries to be extremely beneficial as learning tools over the years. Since you didn't mention which "specific term" you're referencing though, I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Was it the "Mr. Pink" reference?

Feel free to PM me with any response so we don't clutter the thread with more semantics.
cheers,
pope


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 20, 2007, 10:11 PM
Post #70 of 136 (984 views)
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     Re: [pope] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
you would benifit from a dictionary, if you are going to use specific term at leeast use them in their correct context.

You are absolutely correct. I have found dictionaries to be extremely beneficial as learning tools over the years. Since you didn't mention which "specific term" you're referencing though, I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Was it the "Mr. Pink" reference?

Feel free to PM me with any response so we don't clutter the thread with more semantics.
cheers,
pope
Umm I did mention the 3 terms Instructors Coaches and Safety Attendant, it would appear that reading/comprehension would also help youLaughLaughLaugh


BTW I'm well aware of the Mr Pink Reference from Reservoir Dogs, I'm surprised you consider Tunnel personel in the same ilk as $3per hour waitresses.(edit to add) Who work their poor arses off and get man handled and accosted for their $3 Yeah I can see the similarity now, those poor poor tunnel ratsCrazy


(This post was edited by Squeak on Mar 20, 2007, 10:26 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 20, 2007, 11:21 PM
Post #71 of 136 (963 views)
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     Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Tongue


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 20, 2007, 11:22 PM
Post #72 of 136 (960 views)
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     Re: [stormywinters] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I'm just pickin on ya JP, I'm sure Bowen wants to hear your opinion, he may even like it rough.Wink


TongueBlushCool


RackJR  (D 27326)

Mar 20, 2007, 11:31 PM
Post #73 of 136 (957 views)
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     Re: [sartre] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Yvonne if you want to continue to attack me personally in this public forum i will absolutely be responding with things you will not like. my interpretation of the events of the other evening are quite different from yours.
i have deliberately stayed away from any comment towards you, trying not to make the situation worse. i'm not feeling very wise about that decision right now, since i think your accusations are, at best, incredibly unfair.
if you're looking for clarity or resolution, you can always PM me, and i will be happy to talk to you. if instead you're looking to air this out on dz.com, i'm sure you'll let me know that, too.


sartre

Mar 20, 2007, 11:56 PM
Post #74 of 136 (949 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

I'm sure your interpretation is quite different. That doesn't surprise me in the least.

Nor do I care what you think or have to say about it. I already tried to talk to you one on one. We both know how successful that was.

I have nothing to say to you. Or about you. I think you'll show your true colors to everyone soon enough. Until then, I won't be flying in the tunnel. You can thank yourself for that, 100%, although I'm sure you consider that a blessing.

Hope sticking to your self delusions is worth it.


Scubadivemaster  (D License)

Mar 21, 2007, 5:59 AM
Post #75 of 136 (929 views)
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     Re: [RackJR and Sarte] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

This has been very productive up until this point. Lets try to keep it that way.


sartre

Mar 21, 2007, 6:19 AM
Post #76 of 136 (1572 views)
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     Re: [Scubadivemaster] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

No worries. I have nothing more to say.


keka  (A 49273)

Mar 21, 2007, 7:48 AM
Post #77 of 136 (1549 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

btw ...to all coachs at Skyventure in Orlando....I'm flying there tonight and I have some time booked for Saturday in the morning.... I would love to stop by tomorrow (since I'll be there by myself doing pretty much nothing) and check it out!

Keka


Premier Remster  (C License)

Mar 21, 2007, 7:55 AM
Post #78 of 136 (1548 views)
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     Re: [all] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

WTF is it with Colorado and Politics?Crazy


(This post was edited by Remster on Mar 21, 2007, 10:01 AM)


skycat  (D 25740)

Mar 21, 2007, 8:13 AM
Post #79 of 136 (1545 views)
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     Re: [Remster] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
WTF is it with Colorado and Politics?Crazy

I have absolutely no idea, my money is on the altitude. CrazyWink


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 21, 2007, 10:26 AM
Post #80 of 136 (1527 views)
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     Re: [skycat] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

LOL--That MUST be it! Lack of oxygen. (I speak for myself and no one else!! Tongue)


hommie

Mar 21, 2007, 8:20 PM
Post #81 of 136 (1485 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

As a student the best TIP I got was from an instructor....."stay away from JP"


selwyn  (D License)

Mar 21, 2007, 11:15 PM
Post #82 of 136 (1473 views)
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     just read this whole thread!!! [In reply to]  

Wow,,, hahahaha!!!!

there's some people out there sayin some stuff and thinking some stuff about quite honestly a lot of stuff. hahahaha

in response to some of that .......

Tunnel instructors yes .... attendant no........ (by the way grammar guy i an bad with that and spelling so if you want to quote me and laugh at my spelling , i would be greatful if you didn;t as it would hurt my feelings)

sorry , anyway

yeah we instruct people how to be safe and successful in the tunnel, this is not coaching .

coaching is a personal preference, i think it is up to the person and the coach to determine their rates and terms of agreement.

if your tunnel instructor coaches you all the time then he or she is pretty cool, if you tip them thats cool if you pay for the coaching and tip or don't cool, if you don't pay for the coaching it still cool,

i think what i'm getting at is that its all good, as customer be cool and offer the same respect and don't expect to be coached always if you do not ask and or pay for coaching.


I think good coaching is the key to success and it increases ability to quickly and safely progress ---

tipping is cool - i also like a hand shake and a smile, beer is fantastic, and food is also favourite.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 21, 2007, 11:34 PM
Post #83 of 136 (1468 views)
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     Re: [hommie] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
As a student the best TIP I got was from an instructor....."stay away from JP"

Really? Who said that?


Bodyflight.Net

Mar 22, 2007, 5:43 AM
Post #84 of 136 (1456 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Hi Jewels,

Over the last couple of decades I believe it has become traditional to tip your instructor.
As a general rule of thumb, here in the US, where gratuity is not automatically included always, service oriented employees have come to rely on tips to supplement their income.

I know someone will inevitably compare this to waitressing and such however while both are in the service industry, instructors are responsible for preventing death & injury daily to the best of their ability. Beyond that, they are responsible for educating you and hopefully assuring you have a good time.

Not all instructors make the LARGE hourly wage as stated as an example in this thread, nor should it matter. The fact is their job is high stress, physically demanding and highly dangerous.

Ski Instructors, Scuba Instructors, Skydiving Instructors, Flying Instructors (aviation) and ALL sorts of instructors are accustomed to being tipped, I don't think Tunnel Instructors are any different.

The standard 10-20% range I think applies... for a $600 hour of solid attention from one instructor certainly warrants a $60 tip, but at the core of the matter, I think that ANY amount, even a $5 or $10 bill will be just as welcomed. Because tipping is not mandatory (as is stated at every place I have visited) ANY amount or gesture will be welcomed sincerely and bring a smile to their face. And making another human being feel truly appreciated is always a great idea!

Now.. I think what I've seen is that once you become a regular, and make friends, it's usually inappropriate to hand your new "friend" a tip, but I would hope by that time when you come visit you have found OTHER ways to give back and show your appreciation. Helping out around the tunnel, bringing baked goods or pizza when you visit, being a generaly fun & enjoyable person to hang out, hosting the occassional after-party or even buying a block of time and asking your new friends to have fun ON YOUR DIME.... and often time a SINCERE THANK YOU and a hug is also very desireable.

I hope that helps...
of course, as with any post I make... these are just MY OPINIONS


(This post was edited by Bodyflight.Net on Mar 22, 2007, 5:53 AM)


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 22, 2007, 6:08 AM
Post #85 of 136 (1448 views)
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     Re: [selwyn] just read this whole thread!!! [In reply to]  

I had no idea what I was doing when I started this thread. Wink I'm wiser now . . . but I'm still not smart enough not to "go there" one more time!

I'm still having trouble, even this many posts into the discussion, differentiating between attending, instructing and coaching. Maybe that's a difference that's obvious to you if you're an instructor.

We don't have an "attendant" status at our tunnel, obviously, but it sounds to me like everyone agrees that being an instructor is more than being just an attendant. So, instructing has to do with safety, but if it's also being more than an attendant, I assume it also means it's something more than spotting. I tend to think of a very short list of safety-specific things: wear a helmet; don't stand up when you're learning to sit-fly; if you lose your balance when you're sit-flying, go to your back instead of your belly; if you cork and go too high, don't ball up, etc. So, short of the dos and don'ts, we're dangerously close to that whole "attendant" thing again.

On the other hand, if I ask you to teach me head-down flying, I think that's coaching. "Teach me" ANYthing sounds like coaching. But then what do you do with the earlier example that teaching a flyer how to get off the net from their back is a matter of instruction for purposes of safety? To me as a flyer, that still looks like learning something new. I'm not thinking about whether I'm being taught that because it's safer for me to know. From my perspective, I just learned something new and, I can tell you for sure, it never once crossed my mind that I was being taught to do that for safety reasons. That was just the next thing I needed to learn to keep the progression going. So, the lines get blurred.

I'm not trying to make this a semantics game and as a practical matter, I assume that most of what I want in the tunnel is coaching. It's just that the words "coaching" and "instructing," alone, don't give much away as to the distinction. I'm just curious.


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 22, 2007, 6:19 AM
Post #86 of 136 (1446 views)
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     Re: [Bodyflight.Net] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

LOL--no worries; I hardly think you've had any offensive opinions that should make you a target! Wink I just thank you for your input and appreciate getting your two cents (or your 20% Wink) as to what constitutes an appropriate tipping range!


Bodyflight.Net

Mar 22, 2007, 7:07 AM
Post #87 of 136 (1440 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] just read this whole thread!!! [In reply to]  

Again.. just MY OPINION

coach - an individual hired & paid independantly from your tunnel time for their time educating & working with you in and out of the air. Also applies I believe to tunnel camps.

instructor - tunnel provided staff member paid by the tunnel. They are their to teach you & work with you in and out of the air. Instructors don't usually have as much time to spend with you OUT of the air because they are on the clock and working with many groups.

In the last few years, there have been alot of "coaches".. some who were never instructors, some who were or are instructors currently.

I'm going to hazard a GUESS as to the "attendant" .... which perhaps might apply to the tunnel instructor who takes in a group of experienced flyers and doesn't have to spot, coach or instruct with the same intensity as they would with a group of inexperienced flyers.???CrazyWink???

I think gratuity traditions apply to ALL of the above.
They are after all providing the same type of services, based on your skill levels & requests for attention.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 22, 2007, 7:41 AM
Post #88 of 136 (1432 views)
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     Re: [Bodyflight.Net] just read this whole thread!!! [In reply to]  

In reply to:

I think gratuity traditions apply to ALL of the above.
They are after all providing the same type of services, based on your skill levels & requests for attention.
I would have huge issues with tipping someone I"m actually paying to coach.
As I stated previously, the biggest problem i see is lack of product description.

I am paying for a service and paying quite a lot of money to start with. describe to me the product properly, allow me, to make an informed decision, then I will have a much better understanding of what is considered "above normal service"
Too many people both clients and attendants expect more than they should.,


pr0ject42

Mar 22, 2007, 9:04 AM
Post #89 of 136 (1413 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] just read this whole thread!!! [In reply to]  

Everyone bitches about how much the tunnel costs.

Does anyone remember what your out of pocket cost is for a coached skydive? For a mere 60 seconds of freefall (if you're not freeflying), you have to pay your slot and at the very least the coach's slot, but most likely you'll have a coaching fee, be it by the day or the jump.

Some quick math on that one brings you to $48 in slots alone, plus maybe a $10 coach fee for a run of the mill local DZ coach? For 60 seconds. 60 seconds at a tunnel on average is $14 and you can put as many people in the chamber as you want, but you are still back at some sort of coaching fee, unless the person is your friend and wants to help you. Granted at the tunnel you don't get the fun canopy ride, exiting from the plane, and the oh-so-great entire day wasted at the DZ for a handful of jumps.

So kicking down $10 or $20 after getting 5-10 minutes of tunnel time from a highly trained flyer doesn't seem tremendously out of line. Sticking with those numbers you get:

5 skydives, coached at a DZ: $290 at $24 a slot, $10 per jump coaching fee
5 minutes of tunnel time: $90 at $14/minute and kicking down $20 for a tip to the generous tunnel monkey who got in and helped you with your backflying.

But then again being at the DZ all day, being social and whatnot is a big part of the experience for most people. This is not really what the tunnel is all about, at least for me.

I see the tunnel as an intense training tool, even when I'm there just to have fun, working on freeflying or anything outside of my training goals for that season. Think of it like school. The tunnel monkey in there who gets stuck with your rotation is like a public school teacher. Doing the minimum to keep The Man happy. Sure, you can certainly get them to work with you and go above and beyond, but the reality is anything more than keeping you from killing yourself is above and beyond.

Now, lets say you get a coach. This is like going to private school. It is up to you to research which coach might work best for you, but you get more personalized time both before and after the tunnel and you get intensive dialog in the ante-chamber to give you tips/drills/words of shame between sessions to keep your motivation up and your learning peaked. You are indeed paying more for the time, but you are getting more out of it.

My take on it is that you're better off paying twice as much for time if you add in coaching than if you just paid for twice as much time and didn't get any coaching. Even then if you doubled your tunnel time rate for coaching you're looking at $140 in my hypothetical numbers stated above, which is still less than half of the equivalent cost of doing the same work at a DZ.

So, in review, at the tunnel:

Instructor: there to prevent hospital trips. Coaching is not part of that, therefore a show of courtesy is culturally expected if you ask for coaching from them.

Coach: there to prevent you from wasting valuable airtime looking like a douche-bag. You pay a coaching fee, so tipping on top of that is based upon a strong internal urge to display your extreme satisfaction with the experience.

Remember, even though you are only in the tunnel for an hour or so, you're getting in way more freefall time and getting a much richer learning experience than being at the DZ for a whole weekend. Your per minute of freefall time to dollars and time spent are going a lot further for you than at the DZ. Don't start bitching about money, because if you are this is not the sport for you.

I know this is a total tangent from the actual topic at hand, but maybe it will bring the reality of how trivial even a minor tip is, over all.


(This post was edited by pr0ject42 on Mar 22, 2007, 9:10 AM)


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 22, 2007, 9:50 AM
Post #90 of 136 (1404 views)
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     Re: [pr0ject42] just read this whole thread!!! [In reply to]  

Please take my reply in the respectful sense it is intended. I understand what you are saying and I agree that there are other costs that make the expense of tunnel time pale in comparison. It's my choice to fly in the first place. I am willing to tip--I WANT to tip--and I have no problem with the concept of that.

On the other hand, please remember that the wind tunnel doesn't exclusively belong to the skydiver anymore. There is a HUGE base of business from those who do not skydive and those who never intend to skydive. I, for one, am somewhere in the middle with only my meager tandem and the lure of AFF--but no real jumps to show for it. WILL I become a skydiver? Maybe. But, the target market for most wind tunnels seems to be "anyone who will pay for tunnel time," as far as I can tell, which is substantiated by the number of tunnels that aren't located next to a dropzone as much as they are next to tourist venues.

If there is a genuine interest in making bodyflight a "sport" of its own (or whatever label you would like to use), then it has to be financially accessible to do so. I am stretching the budget to spend as much as I do, and I agree that everyone has to know their financial limits. But a 20% increase in cost every time you go (on an already-substantial tab) means that the actual price to play is higher than it appears--and you don't improve at any helpful rate by dropping by just once a month. That's why I appreciate all of the comments that have said "something" is fine--even if it's a $5 or $10 gesture, or goodies, or something else that won't break the bank.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 22, 2007, 3:17 PM
Post #91 of 136 (1380 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] just read this whole thread!!! [In reply to]  

Quote:
Your per minute of freefall time to dollars and time spent are going a lot further for you than at the DZ. Don't start bitching about money, because if you are this is not the sport for you.

I know this is a total tangent from the actual topic at hand, but maybe it will bring the reality of how trivial even a minor tip is, over all.
In reply to:
But a 20% increase in cost every time you go (on an already-substantial tab) means that the actual price to play is higher than it appears--and you don't improve at any helpful rate by dropping by just once a month. That's why I appreciate all of the comments that have said "something" is fine--even if it's a $5 or $10 gesture, or goodies, or something else that won't break the bank.


You are so much more eloquent than I, and apparently patient JulieSmileSmile I would have just said Bullshit to the bolded commentSlySly
I work bloody hard for every dollar I earn and spend.
I expect good quality product at a fair price. If I'm aware of what the product is and I'm willing to pay the marked price, I expect to get what I pay for nothing more nothing less.
I will "tip" only if I believe that the service I get for delivering said product is above and beyond what would reasonably be expected to deliver such a service. And subsequently if that service changes based upon whether or not I tipped on the last product purchase, you can well bet that tipping will cease.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 23, 2007, 10:30 PM
Post #92 of 136 (1288 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] just read this whole thread!!! [In reply to]  

Quote:
I'm still having trouble, even this many posts into the discussion, differentiating between attending, instructing and coaching. Maybe that's a difference that's obvious to you if you're an instructor.

There was a big problem with that at the first tunnel I worked for. SO here is what we as instructors came up with.

You're "instructing" (doing your job for your hourly fee) when you're on the clock. This means you provide the same levele of service to everyone, and expect no additional compensation.

You can "coach" but you need to be off the clock, and not responsible for your "instructor duties" (saftey and spots) meaning these should be another instructor in the tunnel on the clock. At this point is is not out of line to expect or request compensation for your efforts.


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 24, 2007, 5:00 AM
Post #93 of 136 (1269 views)
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     Re: [diablopilot] just read this whole thread!!! [In reply to]  

In reply to:
You can "coach" but you need to be off the clock, and not responsible for your "instructor duties" (saftey and spots) meaning these should be another instructor in the tunnel on the clock. At this point is is not out of line to expect or request compensation for your efforts.

No question! Anybody who comes in on their own time definitely deserves to be paid for doing so.


razor

Mar 26, 2007, 12:18 AM
Post #94 of 136 (1207 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

 
In reply to:
BTW I'm well aware of the Mr Pink Reference from Reservoir Dogs, I'm surprised you consider Tunnel personel in the same ilk as $3per hour waitresses.(edit to add) Who work their poor arses off and get man handled and accosted for their $3 Yeah I can see the similarity now, those poor poor tunnel ratsCrazy

hey squeak, would you rather have a really bad experience with a waitress or your "tunnel rat"?...lazy, incompetent, crabby waitress you might have a bad lunch, no refills, could ruin your lunch experience maybe even your whole day...lazy, incompetent, crabby "tunnel rat" you might break your neck and die. I work in both these industries and feel qualified to say that both these positions sometimes deserve good, bad, or no tip, based on the experience they provide. You've said already that your culture doesn't feel the need to tip or be tipped , so why don't you stay out of a discussion that you admittedly don't understand? As for the waitresses that get "man handled and accosted" that must be a difference in our cultures as well, because here in this day and age, that very rarely happens.


Paulipod  (B 1234)

Mar 26, 2007, 8:12 AM
Post #95 of 136 (1189 views)
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     Re: [razor] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
hey squeak, would you rather have a really bad experience with a waitress or your "tunnel rat"?...lazy, incompetent, crabby waitress you might have a bad lunch, no refills, could ruin your lunch experience maybe even your whole day...lazy, incompetent, crabby "tunnel rat" you might break your neck and die.

I am sure it is the same for other facilities - but anyone not performing their role safely and having a bad day when it comes to keeping the customers alive would be fired! - not simply denied a tip.

[Throw in hand-grenade]

Ironically - at times we have the rather heated debate as to not providing 'free coaching' due to the fact it detracts from this safety expectation. To some degree if your spotter turns into your coach - then they may not be doing their job so well...

To clarify FS or FF coaching is often performed through demonstration, and spotting without your feet on the ground is then compromised.

[/explosion]Wink


razor

Mar 26, 2007, 9:10 AM
Post #96 of 136 (1179 views)
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     Re: [Paulipod] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

 I was adressing the differences is responsibitiy of these two professions and what could be the worst case in these experiences. As for me I'll take a bad waitress over a bad tunnel rat any day, and I will tip or not tip BOTH accordingly.


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 26, 2007, 10:12 AM
Post #97 of 136 (1167 views)
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     Re: [Paulipod] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:

[Throw in hand-grenade]


[/explosion]Wink

What this place needs is a bunch of appropriate .wav files.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 26, 2007, 4:16 PM
Post #98 of 136 (1134 views)
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     Re: [razor] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

OOH a sneak in posterSlySly
Did you actually read al my posts or just decide to snip that bit.

My whole point is not on whether to tip or not tip, it it's about describing the product properly then making certain the staff perform to a set minimum standard.
Thereby allowing people to make better product choices based on reliable descriptions.
I also address, that i consider it wrong to change they way you conduct your self based on someone previously not tipping.
My base line is Do your job & Do it Properly for the money that is offered. if you are not happy with it find somthing else that pays better. If you are fortunate enough to get an occassional tip be gracious, not expectant.



Wanna come out from under the covers nowCrazy


RackJR  (D 27326)

Mar 26, 2007, 8:41 PM
Post #99 of 136 (1106 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

interestingly squeek Jewels question was also not about whether to tip or not tip, but that she wanted to tip and was asking how much. you single handedly turned that into an attack on the instructors, that somehow we are misleading customers, expecting a tip, and then doing a sub-standard job if we don't get one. you seem to very much want to move this thread from "how much should i tip" to you telling us all how to do our job properly. maybe you could start a new thread? perhaps that would be a better place for you to keep being a father to us all, by stomping your feet about our job performance/work ethic.

every single instructor that has commented has said that they do not expect a tip, but that they're nice. i mean that's verbatim what everyone has said. i feel like you've had some really bad experience at a tunnel, and that may be what's behind your obviously passionate feelings about the issue.

also interesting to me is that this particular product, (adult league at SVCO), to my knowledge has never been tried before. we did give free coaching from the start, and we also did not explain to those customers that they owed anything extra, because they don't. both the free coaching, and them not owing us anything extra, continues. this thread was begun, i believe, simply because some of the members have come to realize that we are doing more than what is typically expected, and would like some help on figuring out how much of a tip is appropriate to give.


razor

Mar 26, 2007, 9:52 PM
Post #100 of 136 (1083 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

no, I read all of them starting with screw tipping them. as for the anonymity, I'm just lazy and didnt want to fill it out, really need to get around to that. as for your base line, your dead on, i totally agree, but no where on this thread has one person said or implied that they expect to be tipped


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 26, 2007, 11:08 PM
Post #101 of 136 (1289 views)
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     Re: [razor] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
no, I read all of them starting with screw tipping them. as for the anonymity, I'm just lazy and didnt want to fill it out, really need to get around to that. as for your base line, your dead on, i totally agree, but no where on this thread has one person said or implied that they expect to be tipped
there are people who have said they alter what they do based on whether people have tipped previously,that to me implies an expectation


(This post was edited by Squeak on Mar 27, 2007, 4:04 AM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 27, 2007, 4:12 AM
Post #102 of 136 (1275 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
interestingly squeek Jewels question was also not about whether to tip or not tip, but that she wanted to tip and was asking how much. you single handedly turned that into an attack on the instructors,
that somehow we are misleading customers, expecting a tip,
and then doing a sub-standard job if we don't get one.
As I mentioned previously if you change what you do based on whether you got tipped previously then you are impying that tipping is expected. The job may not be substandard, but if it is anything different to what you nornally do based on lack of tipping then I think this is a swubstandard attitude. (JMO)


In reply to:
i feel like you've had some really bad experience at a tunnel, and that may be what's behind your obviously passionate feelings about the issue.


Quite the contrary actually the tunnel time I have had has been with a coach and a very good coach at that (Pete Allum) I learned a lot and enjoyed it emensely


In reply to:
also interesting to me is that this particular product, (adult league at SVCO), to my knowledge has never been tried before. we did give free coaching from the start, and we also did not explain to those customers that they owed anything extra, because they don't. both the free coaching, and them not owing us anything extra, continues. this thread was begun, i believe, simply because some of the members have come to realize that we are doing more than what is typically expected, and would like some help on figuring out how much of a tip is appropriate to give.


From what I gather this is not strictly true, but without suficient information I wont go into that aspect of the adult league.


RackJR  (D 27326)

Mar 27, 2007, 8:03 AM
Post #103 of 136 (1256 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

who said that? in this thread?


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 27, 2007, 8:26 AM
Post #104 of 136 (1250 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

I don't know that the reason I started the thread is all that helpful to the discussion, but please don't read anything significant into it. Here's the background:

I have casually discussed the tipping question with friends (some who are in league, some who are not) from time to time. One of the points that came up in our conversations in the context of adult league was that for an instructor to take league for a full hour is a lot of work, especially on nights when there’s only one instructor covering it and particularly now that most of us are beginning to try more difficult things. There was some sense—whether or not correct—that some of the instructors might not look forward to taking league, primarily because it IS a hard hour. Some of us wanted to do something so that taking league might be a little less of a groaner for the instructors. *I* wanted to step it up in the tipping department but I also understand the other side for those who might feel that instruction is a basic part of what they’ve purchased and not necessarily something that should be compensated for “again.” There was no discussion among us about who wanted to tip and who didn’t; no one opted in or out of some sort of tipping plan; the idea was just to do it, but not with the notion that everyone had to chip in. I don't think that should change. We just wanted "tipping representation," if you will.

I believe every instructor who has said that they don’t expect a tip. On the other hand, I think there’s a continuum between “it would really be nice” and actual expectation. I’m pretty sure that some instructors weigh in more heavily on one side of the continuum than the other, and that’s okay. That’s why I raised the question about how much of a tip is appropriate. I wanted to have some sense for what might make an instructor feel like their hour was worth the extra effort.

There’s no ulterior motive. I'm not critical of people who don't want to tip. Tipping should never be about whether it's OWED or it isn't. Otherwise, it's a fee, not a tip.

If anyone from league is eavesdropping, PLEASE feel free to correct me if I’m not presenting this accurately. I'm only able to present it the way I've perceived it; I'm not The Voice of League. Wink


muzzler

Mar 27, 2007, 11:37 AM
Post #105 of 136 (1225 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

I kinda skimmed through this discussion.
if I go to a restuarant and dont feel that I should tip,does that mean that all waitresses and waiters should quit their day jobs because they do it for ther pay and not their tips?
Tips are apreciated greatly.I turn down some tips and accept some.If your instructor teaches you something and you can afford it....go ahead and tip them!
If you really cant afford it....dont!!


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 27, 2007, 1:37 PM
Post #106 of 136 (1211 views)
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     Re: [muzzler] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

We just got back from SVCO. We only had tips accepted twice out of a dozen sessions. And those two where we insisted the instructor had to do more than just watch the session and keep it organized, or step in and catch someone who stuck themselves in a burble or so. We saw a large portion of the staff as a result of so many sessions

1 - every single instructor was upbeat and loved being there and was enthusiastic about the group - no exception. every one focused on the job the entire time. no exception.

2 - both of the instructors were a bit embarassed about being offered a few bucks, (worth a meal or so), but seemed happy enough. Neither acted like it was due. Those that didn't get a kick, didn't act like it was expected

3 - the whole experience was fantastic and this is a very nicely run tunnel. the desk staff didn't miss a beat, not a single DVD was messed up,

4 - we only got a single smart ass comment over three days - and that was in fun

I think there is absolutely ZERO sense of entitlement by instructors in general in this industry on this topic. I've had tips turned down, in fact, in Orlando, and in CO so far.

I wish we had planned a bit and brought in donuts each morning. Hard to do with only 4 hours of sleep each night.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Mar 27, 2007, 1:40 PM)


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 27, 2007, 1:57 PM
Post #107 of 136 (1205 views)
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     Re: [rehmwa] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
We just got back from SVCO.

1 - every single instructor was upbeat and loved being there and was enthusiastic about the group - no exception. every one focused on the job the entire time. no exception.

2 - both of the instructors were a bit embarassed about being offered a few bucks, (worth a meal or so), but seemed happy enough. Neither acted like it was due. Those that didn't get a kick, didn't act like it was expected

3 - the whole experience was fantastic and this is a very nicely run tunnel. the desk staff didn't miss a beat, not a single DVD was messed up,

4 - we only got a single smart ass comment over three days - and that was in fun

I think there is absolutely ZERO sense of entitlement by instructors in general in this industry on this topic. I've had tips turned down, in fact, in Orlando, and in CO so far.

I am REALLY glad that this was your experience at SVCO and I echo the sentiment whole-heartedly. There's not a prevailing negative attitude there AT ALL and I certainly hope I haven't suggested by my question or any of my follow-up comments that there is. I consider SVCO to be top-notch all the way around and I'm proud that they're my home tunnel. The tipping issue has to do with appreciation, NOT, as you point out, as though it is due.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 27, 2007, 2:00 PM
Post #108 of 136 (1203 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

The fact that anyone has led you to believe that the hour is "harder work" than anything else is disheartening. It means someone is really not into their job nor providing the same level of service to all.


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 27, 2007, 2:53 PM
Post #109 of 136 (1197 views)
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     Re: [diablopilot] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Hmmm. I appreciate your point, but I still think it's fair to acknowledge that it might be more demanding to coach head-down for multiple people in an hour than to work on some other kinds of skills. I also suspect it's more *physically* demanding to work with us than it is to work with some other groups. (Shoulder pain, anyone? Pirate)

I'm not advocating a slow-down in service or lesser service, even if we collectively ask for more in terms of instructing/coaching or if the instructor goes into it with the expectation that they WON'T get a tip in the end. The fact that we have a slot together for league just intensifies the requirements of the instructor for that time period and I acknowledge that.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 27, 2007, 2:55 PM
Post #110 of 136 (1195 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

AFAIK the Skyventure approved procedure for learning head down requires a seperate "Coach" in the tunnel with the student, as from the approved spotting position the "Instructor" is unable to comunicate with the student.

If an instructor thinks that this is "harder work" they should pass on the session.


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 27, 2007, 3:22 PM
Post #111 of 136 (1192 views)
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     Re: [diablopilot] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Sorry, yes--there are always two in the tunnel for that. Nobody complained about head-down coaching being difficult. I just picked something to use as an example. Just because it's harder for me doesn't mean it's harder for them. Laugh


sartre

Mar 27, 2007, 9:00 PM
Post #112 of 136 (1172 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Hey Jules, remember this post of mine?

Quote:
this is me backing away from a can of worms......


heeheeehee

you never know what's going to happen with a thread you start.LaughLaughLaugh


sergant  (D 28961)

Mar 28, 2007, 7:28 AM
Post #113 of 136 (1143 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Sorry, guys, IMHO instructor should not be tipping unless:
1. coach is working
2. instructor is working as a coach, but you didn't talk to him previously

F@#k everything, call me cheap, but tunel time costs something, right...
Some of you could clame that skydiving costs more...
Partially that's try, but I cannot spend $3000 during one weekend for skydiving...
For windtunnel? Easy :)
So, if I decide spend a weekend in a windtunnel without a coach, how match should I add for tips after $3K?


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 28, 2007, 8:10 AM
Post #114 of 136 (1137 views)
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     Re: [sartre] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Hey Jules, remember this post of mine?

Quote:
this is me backing away from a can of worms......


heeheeehee

you never know what's going to happen with a thread you start.LaughLaughLaugh

And here I thought it was an innocent question! Crazy I mean, my life could always use some spicing up but next time I think I'll try it a different way. Smile


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 28, 2007, 1:44 PM
Post #115 of 136 (1106 views)
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     Re: [diablopilot] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
AFAIK the Skyventure approved procedure for learning head down requires a separate "Coach" in the tunnel with the student, as from the approved spotting position the "Instructor" is unable to communicate with the student.

If an instructor thinks that this is "harder work" they should pass on the session.

It's been suggested I clarify this....

IMO if you're willing to train for and accept a rating and the responsibilities of it, you should probably carry out those duties without complaint for ANY customer. If decide that the duties are too "hard" then you should think about quitting, or giving up the rating, however that may make you less valuable (therefore less employable) to your employer.

Note that the "you" in this post is entirely hypothetical, and reflects my views of no particular individual.


razor

Mar 28, 2007, 3:08 PM
Post #116 of 136 (1096 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

julie,

that was a perfectly innocent, valid, and appropriate question. trouble seems to be that there are people out there who want to try and sway you and others to do what they do, instead of just offering their opinion and how they came to that opinion. who you deem tip worthy or not, and for how much or how little, is entirely up to you. staying away from the issue of instructor, coach, or lifeguard, or the details of anyones job description, I PERSONALLY, like to offer lunch, couple of beers, or 20 bucks, to someone that helps me to have a really good experience, like a river guide, surf instructor, rock climbing instructor, or waitress. whether or not they went above and beyond their responsibilities is inconsequential to me, all i care about is what i got out of it,


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 28, 2007, 3:39 PM
Post #117 of 136 (1085 views)
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     Re: [diablopilot] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
It's been suggested I clarify this....

IMO if you're willing to train for and accept a rating and the responsibilities of it, you should probably carry out those duties without complaint for ANY customer. If decide that the duties are too "hard" then you should think about quitting, or giving up the rating, however that may make you less valuable (therefore less employable) to your employer.

Note that the "you" in this post is entirely hypothetical, and reflects my views of no particular individual.

LaughLaughLaugh No worries!! You (you, Diablopilot, party of the first part) are correct when you say that you (the hypothetical "you") should be willing to perform your job responsibilities--all of them, all the time. No disagreement there! We (the global "we") all have parts of our professions that are more enjoyable and some that are less. It's still our job to do them. Wink


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 28, 2007, 3:46 PM
Post #118 of 136 (1082 views)
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     Re: [razor] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I PERSONALLY, like to offer lunch, couple of beers, or 20 bucks, to someone that helps me to have a really good experience, like a river guide, surf instructor, rock climbing instructor, or waitress. whether or not they went above and beyond their responsibilities is inconsequential to me, all i care about is what i got out of it,

Cool! That's what I had in mind, back in the beginning . . . you know, when I thought that maybe three people would read the post at all and then maybe one of them would say something vague and non-responsive in return. Laugh

I'm joking about that, obviously, but I do think there's some value in shaking the tree to see what falls out. I found out, for example, that there are a lot of different positions on this (more than I expected, anyway) and that people really feel strongly about it no matter WHAT position they're taking. I also found out that coffee, donuts and beer are good tips, although not necessarily *together*. Wink Oh--and I found out that before I start my next thread, I really should buy that helmet from hooknswoop. . . .


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 28, 2007, 4:10 PM
Post #119 of 136 (1076 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
Oh--and I found out that before I start my next thread, I really should buy that helmet from hooknswoop. . . .
But I would not tip him for that serviceWink

















Tongue


(This post was edited by Squeak on Mar 28, 2007, 4:11 PM)


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 28, 2007, 6:17 PM
Post #120 of 136 (1056 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Oh--and I found out that before I start my next thread, I really should buy that helmet from hooknswoop. . . .
But I would not tip him for that serviceWink

Hear that, hooknswoop?! NO TIP FOR YOU!! Tongue
















Tongue


freeflyflunky  (B License)

Mar 29, 2007, 2:31 AM
Post #121 of 136 (1028 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Just because it's a cold, rainy night in New Zealand and I have nothing better to do ...

And, just because I happen to know a few people who've posted thus far on this very entertaining thread...

I'll go to the effort of tossing in my two cents. Not that I really give a damn Wink


Having spent a fair amount of time at SVCO -- and knowing a fair amount about Adult League -- I would have to say the following:

Julie asked a legitimate question. Tipping --like it or not folks,-- is sort of a part of the whole tunnel culture (and it goes without saying that I don't mean just at SVCO.) I'm not implying there's an obligation or expectation -- just that it is done a lot. And, in my opinion, rightfully so. I don't think the question was ever "Gee, should I tip or not?" She merely wanted to know WHAT she should give the guys.

Secondly, Why couldn't this have just ended with an actual tunnel instructor saying what seems to be the general consensus -- that they don't expect it, they do appreciate it. I think that's what Jason, et al.. are trying to get across to y'all. Not that difficult of a concept to wrap your head around and really not that controversial, is it? Are some of you genuinely arguing that tunnel instructors should never be tipped because "they knew what they signed up for?" If you really do feel that way, fine, don't tip when you're there. No one will shoot you a dirty look or trip you as you go down the stairs. It really isn't that big of a deal. But to go to all the effort of going online and inserting yourself in this conversation (yes, I am familiar with both the pot and the kettle, but I'm in the South Pacific. What's your excuse?) with your own negativity and your own (in my view) inaccurate opinions about what is or isn't or should or shouldn't be expected at the tunnel -- well, that's just BS as far as I'm concerned. Really.


Since I've already joined in on the mudslinging (there's some lovely filth over there...) I'll just add one more dig. JP -- no offense man -- but what kettle are you trying to stir up with the whole HD Adult League thing? I don't think Julie ever said that some instructor took her aside and said, "hey, listen Jewels, I really like league and all, and I think you're swell -- but my shoulder's really been killing me since that spot last week. I know you want to learn HD, but I really want to be able walk up stairs when I'm sixty -- or, if not that -- at least have a five spot to tide me over..." Whatever. I know you weren't around when AL and Kid's League (extreme sidenote: is that still around by the way?) were started -- but I can assure you that I never saw anything other than enthusiasm from Instructors when it came to doing league.

Bottom line: (since this is now beginning to cut into my Orbitz time....)
I think instructors and instructor/coaches should be tipped if they are doing a good job and making your experience more valuable and enjoyable. Hell -- tip (some of,) the counter staff while you're at it Wink
Seriously though -- it's like the stupid sign says -- it really isn't expected -- but it is appreciated and if the guys feel like you appreciate the extra mile they may be going -- they're going to keep going above and beyond. There's nothing unusual or sinister about that. It's human nature. We all like to know that we're appreciated.

Wow. I just became one of those people I generally really dislike on DZ.com. I wasted ten minutes writing that post. Oh well. I feel better - and I'm pretty sure that's the whole point of these forums: to give each of us a soapbox from which to vent our individual frustrations and opinions Wink I'm going to go to the bonfire now and comment on someone's new haircut. Definitely time well-spent Smile


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 29, 2007, 6:27 AM
Post #122 of 136 (1011 views)
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By the way, I have tried to make clear and hope by now that everyone understands, my question was NOT a complaint about anything. League is *great*. We have learned a lot, had a lot of fun, made a lot of new friends and if it was not for league, I would not have tried the one lonely tandem I have to my name.

I don't want my original question to lead to a discussion that paints an inaaccurate picture of things. Life is good at SVCO. Please don't misconstrue this discussion to mean anything else. Thanks, too, to those people who have read this thread and understood--I just had a question! Smile


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 29, 2007, 7:51 AM
Post #123 of 136 (1001 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
By the way, I have tried to make clear and hope by now that everyone understands, my question was NOT a complaint about anything. League is *great*. We have learned a lot, had a lot of fun, made a lot of new friends and if it was not for league, I would not have tried the one lonely tandem I have to my name.

I don't want my original question to lead to a discussion that paints an inaaccurate picture of things. Life is good at SVCO. Please don't misconstrue this discussion to mean anything else. Thanks, too, to those people who have read this thread and understood--I just had a question! Smile
You Backstabbing trouble maker youLaughLaughLaughLaugh


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 29, 2007, 9:09 AM
Post #124 of 136 (990 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Smile
You Backstabbing trouble maker youLaughLaughLaughLaugh
SHHHHH!!! You'll ruin my nefarious plan if you give away all my secrets. BlushBlush


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 29, 2007, 11:42 AM
Post #125 of 136 (973 views)
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     Re: [freeflyflunky] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

I know nothing about the "HD Adult league" at SVCO.


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 29, 2007, 1:00 PM
Post #126 of 136 (1113 views)
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     Re: [diablopilot] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Don't get too hung up on the adult league stuff. That's certainly part of where I spend my time and money at SVCO, but my original question was intended to be broader than that. League is only one angle to the question and since it seems that we may be the only tunnel that HAS an adult league at all, it makes sense to talk about it in the broader context, where it might be applicable to other tunnel-goers as well.


RackJR  (D 27326)

Mar 30, 2007, 2:04 AM
Post #127 of 136 (1067 views)
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     Re: [diablopilot] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

it just means head down. a few of the members are to that point.


muzzler

Mar 30, 2007, 5:25 PM
Post #128 of 136 (1036 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

Firstly....league is gay and all your bullshit is wearing
a bit thin. Why dont you try do a bit of tunnel progression in the form of free fly and have an open mind before you even have the audacity to start to comment about tipping. If you can jump in a tunnel and fly circles around that "gimp" who stands in the door...then you have a right to comment...otherwise just go play with your one dimensional belly friends!!!!


Jewels  (Student)

Mar 31, 2007, 6:47 AM
Post #129 of 136 (1005 views)
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     Re: [muzzler] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Firstly....league is gay

You know, "league" is just a weekly tunnel session where we split an hour and get the benefit of two instructors. We don't go around wearing shirts with our names sewn on the front or anything like that. It's great to have a place to learn new things with people who are about at the same skill level and I think we get more out of it that way. I know nothing from your profile so I have no idea whether you have any first-hand knowledge about our league anyway, but I think you're dismissing something that has been a great tool for learning.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 31, 2007, 7:35 AM
Post #130 of 136 (1002 views)
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     Re: [muzzler] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Firstly....league is gay and all your bullshit is wearing
a bit thin. Why dont you try do a bit of tunnel progression in the form of free fly and have an open mind before you even have the audacity to start to comment about tipping. If you can jump in a tunnel and fly circles around that "gimp" who stands in the door...then you have a right to comment...otherwise just go play with your one dimensional belly friends!!!!
1stly I am not part of the league Mr 7 posts and no identity.
2ndly I skydive instead


(This post was edited by Squeak on Mar 31, 2007, 7:36 AM)


sartre

Mar 31, 2007, 12:27 PM
Post #131 of 136 (982 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

1stly I am not part of the league Mr 7 posts and no identity.
2ndly I skydive instead
Some of us do both Tongue

...or try to, anyway!Laugh


RackJR  (D 27326)

Apr 1, 2007, 2:16 AM
Post #132 of 136 (942 views)
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     Re: [Squeak] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to be talking about anyone's anonymity?


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)
Moderator
Apr 1, 2007, 6:28 AM
Post #133 of 136 (931 views)
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     Re: [Jewels] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

OK folks . . . let's get this thread back on topic and pull the throttle back on the emotional replies.

If you have a personal beef with someone, take it to PMs.

If you have an opposite viewpoint of someone else and the conversation escalates because you still disagree, please continue to discussion only if you can remain objective and keep the pointed remarks out of your posts. There have been several borderline PAs here.

If there is such a thing as tunnel politics (parallel to DZ politics), please don't drag it into this forum.

Thanks.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 1, 2007, 6:36 AM
Post #134 of 136 (929 views)
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     Re: [RackJR] Tipping Your Tunnel Instructor [In reply to]  

In reply to:
don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to be talking about anyone's anonymity?
No not at all if you ever have the privilege of meeting me you will be introduced to me as Squeak, it's not just a screen name it's the name I have gone by for nearly 40 years Those who have met me n person know me as Squeak.


(This post was edited by Squeak on Apr 1, 2007, 6:39 AM)


pope  (D 19947)

Apr 1, 2007, 10:48 PM
Post #135 of 136 (879 views)
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     Tunnel Instructor Tipping [In reply to]  

OK, due to this thread some friends and I went out the other night looking to tip some tunnel instructors.
But we now suspect that the ease of tipping your tunnel instructor is merely an urban legend.
We tried, multiple times to tip many different tunnel instructors, but no matter how hard we pushed they wouldn't go over! Even some of the scrawny ones! Just too damn coordinated I guess.

Finally they lost their patience and kicked our asses. Then they took our wallets and told us to go back to the dropzone.

Through our unsuccessful evening tipping tunnel instructors, we surmised two things:
1. It only really works with cows, and cows don't hit back.
2. It's probably way easier to tip a tunnel instructor after you get out of the tunnel (but only if they refill your coffee at least 5 times).

That's the last time I go tunnel instructor tipping!
pope


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 2, 2007, 12:51 AM
Post #136 of 136 (869 views)
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     Re: [pope] Tunnel Instructor Tipping [In reply to]  

Did you try supergluing one foot to the floor?



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