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100 jump wonders/coaches

 

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Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Mar 7, 2007, 9:53 AM
Post #76 of 129 (1109 views)
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Re: [PeterB] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Because I have no need to. There's a minimum requirement of 250 jumps, 2 years in the sport for anyone who wants to become a basic instructor in the country I've moved to. I'm not a USPA member and somehow I doubt the USPA wants non-members to dictate their rules and guidelines.

Yes, but I asked the question the way I did because people were bitching about the USPA guidelines, not the guidelines in other countries.


PeterB  (D 777777)

Mar 7, 2007, 11:34 AM
Post #77 of 129 (1088 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Heh I'm in nitpick mode.

I am not bitching about the guidelines. I am bitching about the idea that 100 jump newbies are qualified jumpers Tongue. Bitching is nice so I do a lot of it.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Mar 7, 2007, 1:13 PM
Post #78 of 129 (1061 views)
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Re: [jdthomas] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

I was reading threw this tread .I was thinking of getting my coach rating this spring .I dont think I am doing it to coach though .I just want to learn more .I have taken all kinds of coaching , Canopy,Freefly,and Tunnel. It was my understanding that a coach works under a AAF instructor .So why is 100 jumps to little I ask . If you pass the test and are working close with a AFF instructor I see know problem with it . I have jumped all over the east coast and met a lot of good people .The one thing I noticed is the people make this sound harder then it is .( SKYDIVING)I know saying that I am going to get a lot of responses but it is the way I FEEL . There are some people and I say SOME that want it to sound hard to make them think they are better .I hear all the time ,you shouldnt do this until you have this many jumps .Well I say If you have a Licence and you get the proper instruction then why not .You guys are talking about 100 jump wounders .What about 1000 jump SKY GODS .just my 2 cents


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Mar 7, 2007, 1:41 PM
Post #79 of 129 (1051 views)
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Re: [PeterB] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Heh I'm in nitpick mode.

I am not bitching about the guidelines. I am bitching about the idea that 100 jump newbies are qualified jumpers Tongue. Bitching is nice so I do a lot of it.

100 jumps was considered enough to JUMP MASTER static line students. There's less responsibility in hopping out with students who've been cleared to self-jump master.


dorbie

Mar 7, 2007, 5:20 PM
Post #80 of 129 (1007 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
100 jumps was considered enough to JUMP MASTER static line students. There's less responsibility in hopping out with students who've been cleared to self-jump master.

The story of Bill Booth's first jump is worth a listen.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 7, 2007, 5:23 PM
Post #81 of 129 (1010 views)
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Re: [dorbie] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Right, so if anyone feels strongly about this they should write to the BOD and urge them to retain the coach rating right?

Well, my letter says to hammer down on the Course Directors and for the sake of safety, get the hell away from the good ol' boy network.

BOD members need to get off their ass and go sit in on ALL of the Course Directors sessions and see what is going on. Not just Coach course but ALL ratings courses.
Having ratings seekers regurgitate pre-printed outlines is NOT doing anything but teaching how to regurgitate.

My idea is:
First you find out if the applicant has the knowledge to teach and then you find out if he/she has the skills to teach - both on the ground and in the air. You don't just give them a piece of paper and tell them to regurgitate it to you on the ground and then take 'em up in the air simply to test observation skills.
Mad


dorbie

Mar 7, 2007, 5:41 PM
Post #82 of 129 (1003 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
....get the hell away from the good ol' boy network.

Surely you mean the young whippersnapper network.


Zing  (D 6343)

Mar 7, 2007, 6:42 PM
Post #83 of 129 (982 views)
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Re: [PeterB] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

There are those to whom your 1200 jumps ain't shit ... and those to whom my 6000 jumps ain't shit. It's all relative, and numbers of jumps don't impress me that much.


johnie  (A 197267)

Mar 7, 2007, 7:53 PM
Post #84 of 129 (965 views)
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Re: [Zing] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe that coachs with 100 jumps can teach a student about 100 jumps worth of instruction. Ultimately hes not there to save the students life,The student earned the right to save his own life when cleared for solos. Am i wrong??


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 7, 2007, 8:11 PM
Post #85 of 129 (960 views)
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Re: [Zing] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

From my relatively inexperienced view, isn't a coach effectively only going to be working with the jumpers with say...10 to 50/60 skydives? Those that are just learning to fly?
If someone with say...300 jumps is going for a coach, I think they've already located their guy/gal at the DZ, a neighboring DZ, or a distant DZ. I've hired coaches both in the tunnel and out, all post jump 100 or so, and found them all by lurking DZ.com or asking around. Seven or eight trips to Perris and Eloy, it's been easy to find the higher end. However, in the early jumps, it was difficult to find someone that wasn't jumping tandem, video, AFF, or with their high-number jump buddies that was available to jump with. Paid slot or no.
then again, I'm not 19, cute, and female. But I'm better looking than Zing.Tongue


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Mar 7, 2007, 8:13 PM
Post #86 of 129 (960 views)
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Re: [johnie] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

That sounds right to me. When a student is cleared for solos, Aff is over and an in air instructor to pull for them is gone. Student earned the right to be responsible for themselves as a skydiver when their released for solos, keep them from tracking into others airspace, teach them to skydive. Like alot of jumps go, dirt dive (learning to skydive) ,then go skydive(having fun learning to skydive).


Zing  (D 6343)

Mar 7, 2007, 10:13 PM
Post #87 of 129 (941 views)
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Re: [DSE] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

 But I'm better looking than Zing.Tongue
That ain't saying much, my friend.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 7, 2007, 10:15 PM
Post #88 of 129 (938 views)
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Re: [Zing] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But I'm better looking than Zing.Tongue

That ain't saying much, my friend.The sad thing is, I knew that. neither one of us is gonna win any beauty contests, but you've got me beat in personality, bud.
I hope you get to try to toss me out of the Porter again sometime soon.


PeterB  (D 777777)

Mar 7, 2007, 10:23 PM
Post #89 of 129 (938 views)
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Re: [Zing] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are those to whom your 1200 jumps ain't shit ... and those to whom my 6000 jumps ain't shit. It's all relative, and numbers of jumps don't impress me that much.

Yeah, I kinda tried to emphasize that. Guess I didn't do it strongly enough. I'm a noob, I haven't got any instructional ratings and I'm not interested in getting them either.

Number of jumps aren't magical. They can be used as an indicator though. A 100 jump guy probably doesn't have the experience and skill to fly an 83 Velo.

Somewhere you have to draw the line with regards to coaching and getting instructor ratings. My feeling is that 100 jumps is too little. Of course there are the historical argument that it was done in the past. Could be argued that the sport has evolved and it can be pointed out that lots of really dumb shit also was just part of the scene a while back.

I don't think 100 jump coaches are inherently unsafe. It's that the skillset for the average 100 jump guy just ain't enough for teaching others how to properly maneuver in freefall. In my opinion.


StephZ  (D License)

Mar 7, 2007, 11:55 PM
Post #90 of 129 (928 views)
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Re: [DSE] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
then again, I'm not 19, cute, and female.


DudeUnimpressed Just hate the game...Unimpressed



And I'm going for my rating, I'd like to rally your supportWink


dorbie

Mar 8, 2007, 4:09 AM
Post #91 of 129 (910 views)
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Re: [PeterB] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think 100 jump coaches are inherently unsafe. It's that the skillset for the average 100 jump guy just ain't enough for teaching others how to properly maneuver in freefall. In my opinion.

A better question is, is it reasonably safe after a coach signoff for them to do a bit of fun RW with students who are not permitted to jump with ordinary jumpers. How many 30 jump students do you help keep in the sport each visit to the DZ? People with a calling for this who are willing to go through a coach course should be permitted to.

I don't think jumpers who start threads with titles like "100 jump wonders" are the type who help inculcate new AFF grads (10 jump wonders), DSE's insight excepted.


DougH  (D License)

Mar 8, 2007, 5:47 AM
Post #92 of 129 (890 views)
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Re: [StephZ] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...rally your supportWink

Shocked Is that would you people are calling it now a days. Laugh


jheadley  (D 28710)

Mar 8, 2007, 7:03 AM
Post #93 of 129 (863 views)
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Re: [dorbie] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't think 100 jump coaches are inherently unsafe. It's that the skillset for the average 100 jump guy just ain't enough for teaching others how to properly maneuver in freefall. In my opinion.

A better question is, is it reasonably safe after a coach signoff for them to do a bit of fun RW with students who are not permitted to jump with ordinary jumpers. How many 30 jump students do you help keep in the sport each visit to the DZ? People with a calling for this who are willing to go through a coach course should be permitted to.

I don't think jumpers who start threads with titles like "100 jump wonders" are the type who help inculcate new AFF grads (10 jump wonders), DSE's insight excepted.

What I would really like to see coaches do more of is just jump with the new A license holders (paying his own slot). I hear of so many people who get their license and then quit the sport 50 jumps later, because nobody will jump with them, or they're to shy to ask someone to jump with them, and they get bored doing solos. This is something I think a 100 jump coach could do well.


peek  (D 8884)

Mar 8, 2007, 7:38 AM
Post #94 of 129 (845 views)
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Re: [PeterB] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think 100 jump coaches are inherently unsafe. It's that the skillset for the average 100 jump guy just ain't enough for teaching others how to properly maneuver in freefall. In my opinion.

A national organization might create a rating that tries to insure that a skydiver teaching the basics of freefall and canopy control has a reasonable idea of how to do that safely. That is the intent of the USPA Coach rating (as far as I know and as far as I have heard it discussed.)

As to whether the rating needed to be created after essentially doing away with the USPA Jumpmaster rating, well, that is an entirely different discussion. :)

I guess it depends on what you mean by "properly" maneuver in freefall. If you are talking about freefall skills as related to formation skydiving and competition, well, it would be best for a novice skydiver to go to someone like a Skydive U coach or course.

But most student (unlicensed) skydivers are simply in need of someone to teach them how to learn/improve their skills and to be safe.

A related comment:

I know that there are a lot of people out there that think that student skydivers should have the very best skills training available in order "not to learn any bad habits", (one of the ways I have heard it put.)

But if we don't allow students to do some jumps during their student training that are simply fun, and where they aren't required to try to perform to some standard, I think we are at risk of losing some students because they aren't having much fun.


PeterB  (D 777777)

Mar 8, 2007, 8:08 AM
Post #95 of 129 (837 views)
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Re: [peek] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A national organization might create a rating that tries to insure that a skydiver teaching the basics of freefall and canopy control has a reasonable idea of how to do that safely. That is the intent of the USPA Coach rating (as far as I know and as far as I have heard it discussed.)

This is fair enough. I'm just not on board with the idea that 100 jumps is enough. The statistics may prove me wrong though.

Quote:
As to whether the rating needed to be created after essentially doing away with the USPA Jumpmaster rating, well, that is an entirely different discussion. :)

Yeah I guess this is probably what's bothering me the most. The jumpmaster rating was pretty solid IMO. This 'coach' thing is also lends itself well to either charging others or not paying your own slot. This bugs me because that ain't what skydiving should be about especially as a student. Share the passion is way better than seeing a student as a way to cash in or get free jumps.

No comment on the rest, you make very valid points and I can only second them.

Dorbie, I jump with everyone. Small DZ so the socialising and sharing comes as a natural part of the environment. I'm no saint in any way. It's just easy to want to help out when everyone at the DZ already are.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Mar 8, 2007, 11:16 AM
Post #96 of 129 (798 views)
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Re: [DSE] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
From my relatively inexperienced view, isn't a coach effectively only going to be working with the jumpers with say...10 to 50/60 skydives?

7 to 24 skydives, after which students become licensed jumpers with no regulatory limits on who they can jump with.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Mar 8, 2007, 11:24 AM
Post #97 of 129 (793 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

7 to 24 skydives

You mean 8 to 25 right


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Mar 8, 2007, 11:57 AM
Post #98 of 129 (779 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
7 to 24 skydives

You mean 8 to 25 right

7-24. The jump the student is going on doesn't count because it hasn't been completed yet.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Mar 8, 2007, 12:00 PM
Post #99 of 129 (777 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
7 to 24 skydives

You mean 8 to 25 right

7-24. The jump the student is going on doesn't count because it hasn't been completed yet.

Ok thanks LOL for clearing that up


DJL  (C License)

Mar 8, 2007, 1:38 PM
Post #100 of 129 (749 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I dont think I am doing it to coach though .I just want to learn more .

You don't actually learn much in the Coach's Course, the term "Course" is a bit of a misnomer. It should be called "Coach's Evaluation". You are supposed to show up with the knowledge and skills required to coach the appropriate levels. You then review the course material and establish the evaluation guidlines by which you'll be tested.

Taking the course for the purposes of learning is a waste of your time. If you want to learn about coaching then read a book on the subject.


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