Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not?

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All

Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 27, 2007, 9:24 AM
Post #76 of 136 (2522 views)
Shortcut
Re: [MrBrant] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>This seems to mean that the user is not even "permitted" to un-shackle
>the RSL from the main riser. Am I interpreting this wrong?

"the USER or OWNER cannot legally remove the RSL lanyard unless he/she is a master parachute rigger. UNLESS, the user is in an emergency situation. "

I read that as "the user or owner cannot legally remove the RSL lanyard from the rig unless he/she is a master parachute rigger." That doesn't say the shackle can't be disconnected, just that the owner cannot remove the entire assembly.

(Note that merely tugging on the RSL lanyard will physically remove it completely after a reserve deployment; they seem to be explicitly OKing that.)


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 27, 2007, 10:33 AM
Post #77 of 136 (2511 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HSPScott] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a good question, Truman.Sly


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 27, 2007, 12:19 PM
Post #78 of 136 (2499 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HSPScott] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If the RSL was mandatory, why wasnt I notified that the rings would have to be put back on the rig?

Why would Sunpath do a repair on a container and send it back un-airworthy?

Because they are so busy trying to cover their ass for lawsuits, no matter what grief it causes their past and future customers, they don't even follow their own directions. However, I don't even think it accomplishes the supposed objective of covering their ass.

They don't seem to be able to write a coherent communication to their customers and regulatory authorities. First, they make a statement that has no enforcible meaning (recommending the RSL not be removed), only to directly contradict that in oral communications. Then they write a detailed instruction concerning what is required to remove it, but with an important typographical error.

That is really crappy customer service.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Feb 27, 2007, 12:21 PM)


MrBrant  (B License)

Feb 27, 2007, 9:12 PM
Post #79 of 136 (2449 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
(Note that merely tugging on the RSL lanyard will physically remove it completely after a reserve deployment; they seem to be explicitly OKing that.)

ah - there we go.

I was having trouble imagining how one could possibly remove the RSL in an emergency situation.
Now I'm on the trolley.

thanks!


airdog07  (Student)

Feb 27, 2007, 10:58 PM
Post #80 of 136 (2440 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sundevil777] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

not just a law suite remember reflex, form just one incidence they can be out of business. I still jump reflex there are good containers.
any body can work on airplane, from single to jet, you just can not sign off on it, you need a a & P. I think just like rigging senior can work on it but need the master to sign off on it.


hunters

Feb 28, 2007, 8:19 AM
Post #81 of 136 (2407 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ripcord4] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 8015b provides no qualification tests with an rsl disconnected and unconstained. master rigger
In reply to:


skydivejunky  (D 22209)

Feb 28, 2007, 2:39 PM
Post #82 of 136 (2360 views)
Shortcut
Re: [packertom] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Does anyone know when RSLs on Javelins were just an option? I noticed in one post that said it was a few years ago that they stopped making it an option. Just thought I'd add another twist in this twisted mess. Tongue


dorbie

Mar 1, 2007, 3:32 AM
Post #83 of 136 (2302 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>This seems to mean that the user is not even "permitted" to un-shackle
>the RSL from the main riser. Am I interpreting this wrong?

"the USER or OWNER cannot legally remove the RSL lanyard unless he/she is a master parachute rigger. UNLESS, the user is in an emergency situation. "

I read that as "the user or owner cannot legally remove the RSL lanyard from the rig unless he/she is a master parachute rigger." That doesn't say the shackle can't be disconnected, just that the owner cannot remove the entire assembly.

(Note that merely tugging on the RSL lanyard will physically remove it completely after a reserve deployment; they seem to be explicitly OKing that.)

It needs better wording.


dorbie

Mar 1, 2007, 3:35 AM
Post #84 of 136 (2301 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
3. Is it legal for a master or a senior rigger to A) assemble or B)remove the RSL on a Javelin or Odyssey container?

You have 2 questions here:

A) assemble: Yes, a senior rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITH an RSL

Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITH an RSL

Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITHOUT an RSL

Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITHOUT an RSL as long as the removal of the components is noted on the packing data card by a MASTER RIGGER.

I'm quite sure the last sentence in the text I quoted above should begin "Yes, a senior rigger" and not "Yes, a Master rigger".

P.S. well either that or the redundancy and inconsistency represents a larger error during the editing process, so being reluctant to put words into Sunpath's mouth, this is something else that needs to be reworded.


(This post was edited by dorbie on Mar 1, 2007, 3:42 AM)


hunters

Mar 2, 2007, 10:02 AM
Post #85 of 136 (2222 views)
Shortcut
Re: [hunters] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
8015b provides no qualification tests with an rsl disconnected and unconstrained master rigger
In reply to:


RiggerLee

Mar 5, 2007, 3:56 PM
Post #86 of 136 (2150 views)
Shortcut
Re: [hunters] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
The word of God has been delivered down unto us. In other words it's up on the web site now. Please note how they are very specific about useing a terminal reserve pin. The reserve ripcord must be of sunpath manufacter. I guess that's in their line drawing as well. So much for interchangeability of tso'd parts. Isn't it interesting that they use the bent pins for their FXC instalations? Honestly I like my Javelin but they seem to be determind to make it difacult to own one.

Lee

Sorry I ment to include the link.
http://www.sunpath.com/downloads/bulletins/RSL_answers_2-27-07.pdf


(This post was edited by RiggerLee on Mar 5, 2007, 3:57 PM)


RiggerLee

Mar 5, 2007, 4:32 PM
Post #87 of 136 (2132 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Another question that has come up. Early javelins that were built without a RSL? Acording to this they are unairworthy. Did Sunpath violate there own TSO when building them? If they are still airworthy how do you identify them? How do you seperate a legal rig from some one bullshiting you trying to tell you that it was never there? This is going to be a pain. I don't know about you but they just grounded 75% of the Javelins on the DZ. It's four days to the weeknd. I only have three RSL's and the DZ manager has had his head in the sand hoping this will all go away. He hasn't told or e-mailed any one. It's going to be a mess Saterday morning.

Lee


sundevil777  (D License)

Mar 5, 2007, 5:06 PM
Post #88 of 136 (2115 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sunpath should have required that the rig comply by the next repack, or within a month, or something.

That kind of customer service will turn off both past and future customers. Given the many iterations of their "official" statements, I predict they will modify this one also (I hope for their sake).


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 5, 2007, 6:12 PM
Post #89 of 136 (2089 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Could this be why we see so many now on the market? HEY anyone want to buy mine.....Crazy


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 5, 2007, 6:43 PM
Post #90 of 136 (2076 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

The language is interesting in that they seem to be implying that the Javelin cannot legally be JUMPED without the RSL. Unenforceable of course but a very strange thing to say. Legal CYA perhaps?

The text:

"The user can disengage the RSL lanyard by disconnecting the snap shackle only in an emergency situation." (Italics/underscore are theirs.)


(This post was edited by billvon on Mar 5, 2007, 6:44 PM)


packertom  (C License)

Mar 5, 2007, 8:21 PM
Post #91 of 136 (2050 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

basically, they are stating that you can not disconnect the RSL unless in an emergency situation... this gives Sunpath a legal out in that if you disconnect the RSL and bad things happen... they can argue that it was not an emergency and you are therefore responsible... this is not that big a deal and I don't blame them for placing this caveat in their statement.. having said that, I will say that this is liable to have a larger impact on the skydiving public than the Capewell bulletin did... beware guys and read the bulletins and for your own sakes stay in compliance... honestly, this has needed to come out.. I salute sunpath for coming out with this unequivicable statement...

Tom

www.velocitysportswear.com
tom@velocitysportswear.com


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Mar 5, 2007, 8:45 PM
Post #92 of 136 (2039 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"The user can disengage the RSL lanyard by disconnecting the snap shackle only in an emergency situation." (Italics/underscore are theirs.)

No more casual CRW or camera if you own a Javelin then?


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007, 6:35 AM
Post #93 of 136 (1993 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bob.dino] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

The US CRW team jumps Javelins too. Wonder how they're going to feel when they find out they have to have their RSL's connected?


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007, 6:37 AM
Post #94 of 136 (1990 views)
Shortcut
Re: [faulknerwn] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

On that topic I wonder how all of Sunpath's sponsored teams are going to feel when they are told that their camera flyers need to have them installed and hooked up again or get a master rigger to alter them.


DougH  (D License)

Mar 6, 2007, 8:13 AM
Post #95 of 136 (1955 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PhreeZone] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is surprising that they are giving so many of their customers the big F U.


beowulf  (C License)

Mar 6, 2007, 8:43 AM
Post #96 of 136 (1938 views)
Shortcut
Re: [packertom] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am glad that my Odyssey still has the RSL on it so I don't have to mess with any of this.

********************NOTICE to SUNPATH***************************


I will never purchase any of your products again. My next container will not be one of your products.


NickDG  (D 8904)

Mar 6, 2007, 8:49 AM
Post #97 of 136 (1930 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DougH] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sun Path is using Riggers to shield themselves from liability. The simple solution is since no rig is airworthy without a Rigger's signature, all Riggers should just stop servicing Javelin/Odyssey rigs altogether. Sun Path will either change their tune or be out of business within a year.

I never "got" the Javelin anyway. All they did was take the Racer design and ruin it by adding flaps and putting the reserve pin on the wrong side of the rig . . .

NickD Smile
BASE 194


AMax

Mar 6, 2007, 8:56 AM
Post #98 of 136 (1921 views)
Shortcut
Re: [NickDG] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... all Riggers should just stop servicing Javelin/Odyssey rigs altogether ...

This is ridiculous Unsure Do you really believe in what you just said?


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 6, 2007, 9:42 AM
Post #99 of 136 (1890 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AMax] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't find it all that ridiculous, I have better things to do with my time then search the data base to make sure the name signed on the data card is really a master rigger. Or not be able to repack someones rig who just lost a main canopy with the RSL attached to it, in order to get them in the air with a loner canopy, now we have to wait till the RSL lanyard can be replaced. Think it can't happen, I have had a number of jumpers over the years lose a main canopy and not be able to find it till the harvest season, come to get a repack to get back up in the air with loners. (same day as chop)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007, 10:43 AM
Post #100 of 136 (1861 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bob.dino] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>No more casual CRW or camera if you own a Javelin then?

Presumably if you follow the letter of their instructions, you must jump with it attached, then disconnect it before you cut away if you do not want the functionality. Seems awkward, but perhaps it's a legal CYA that Sunpath does not expect anyone to follow. On the other hand, perhaps cameramen/CRW people could add a small "Lutz strap" that connects the shackle release to the riser, so the RSL is automatically released before the reserve cable is pulled.

(Wasn't really serious about the Lutz strap, so don't anyone start doing it!)


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Gear and Rigging

 


Search for (options)