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coach rating jump requirements

 


2shay  (D 1)

Mar 3, 2007, 10:56 AM
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There has been a lot of talk of coach jump requirements. I amoung most of the general population on other threads feel that the jumps aren't enough and was told to quit bitching about it and do something. Sooooo here you go, I e mailed Gary Peek the central regional director. He said that uspa does know of the issue and has been spoke about to death in their S&T meetings. He said I could come address the issue at their next BOD (board of directors) meeting, but the ONLY THING THAT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE IS IF MANY PEOPLE E MAILED OR CALLED THERE CONCERNS IN TO THE BOD OR THEIR REGIONAL DIRECTOR ABOUT THIS ISSUE. He also said that the uspa does not consider these forums as valid input from anyone so this is not a bithing thread, it is for those who do have concerns, and I have shown the way for them to be heard if they want it changed.

Thanks all Joel


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 3, 2007, 12:23 PM
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I don't know that I'd say "most people" don't agree with coaching at 100 jumps. Bill von said it best, IMO, that it's better than the blind leading the

In this thread it's pretty clear that even though you are a senior rigger, you might not have all the information you need to be correctly teaching packing. Does that mean you shouldn't be a senior rigger? Or does it mean that you've started on the journey of becoming a good rigger? Passing the course doesn't mean you're a good rigger, it merely means you have the skills to pass the test. Same with being a coach. One might not be a skygod, but they've demonstrated the skills that theUSPA deems necessary to be able to pass along basic information, help newbies have a jump companion, and someone to provide new jumpers with feedback.
Had there been a good 100 jump coach available to watch out for me when I first started jumping, I'd have been much better off than I was with the 5000 jump skygod who was more interested in showing me how good he could fly, but wanted me to pay his slot anyway. I finally met some good jumpers without their coach rating that spent time in the air with me, and eventually in the tunnel with me.
So, while a 100 jump person might not be the best, the 100 jump person is someone, and if they're willing to undergo the coaching eval and rating as managed by someone like say...Jay Stokes, who makes you work for it and doesn't allow any corners to be cut...then at least that person has demonstrated not only a willingness to teach, but an acumen and enthusiasm for doing so.
There are bad coaches at 5000 jumps just as there are bad TM's and bad AFFI's.
There are great low-number jumpers just as there are great TM's and great AFFI's.
Personally, I'd like to see spelling tests and punctuation become part of a passed requirement for a rigging or AFFI rating, too.Crazy After all, communication is a significant component of either.


Ms.sofaking

Mar 3, 2007, 12:46 PM
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OK I've been sitting all winter at 33 jumps.I also have an hour of tunnel time.I consider myself to be doing well for that experience level.

Coaching someone when I have 3x the skill I currently have now, I find simply laughable.No way.It would be ridiculous. Could I jump with someone new and teach them something?Probably.I could possibly do that now.But Coach?No.
If you had a choice between being coached by someone with a hundred jumps or a thousand who are you going to pick?Especially if you are paying for these jumps.It seems like there should be some step in between student and coach.Like learning how to skydive.


DougH  (D License)

Mar 3, 2007, 2:08 PM
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Your 1000 jump coach might be a world class flyer, but that doesn't make him or her a good teacher. Jump numbers are a poor measure of teaching ability. A 100 jump coach willing to put a lot into effort into a good ground prep before the jump will help you learn more than a coach turn back to backs who briefs you for 5 minutes before the jump.

The fact that coach courses accept and pass candidate that aren't qualified is the real problem. I had a discussion with another jumper about this and he had what I believe is a great idea. You should have to get a letter or recommendation from your DZO or STA to get into a course. There are plenty of 500 jump individuals in this sport that would make a horrible coach.

80 dollar coach jumps that put obtaining a license out of reach for many young jumpers are a problem.

The biggest problem of the coaching setup right now is that it is primarily designed to make money for the drop zone, and course designers, and helping new jumpers is just an after thought.


(This post was edited by DougH on Mar 3, 2007, 2:14 PM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Mar 3, 2007, 2:22 PM
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The coach has EVOLVED into making money for the DZ (not all but many). The Coach was intended PRIMARILY to bridge the gap between "Off Student Status" and "not licensed".

A coach and the "A" license card combined is a good thing for our sports younger jumpers to learn right from wrong.
It is up to us as a group and us as older jumpers to ensure that the intent of the program is maintained.
I like the letter idea. I had to get 3 for my Tandem Examiner Rating, so 1 for a Coach Candidate seems fair.

Matt


2shay  (D 1)

Mar 3, 2007, 4:52 PM
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if you read 100 jump wonder/ coach you would see that people did fell it was and issue as well as did the whole uspa they questioned a lot if they should have even created the coach. I pu this on here so that others who were concerned about it could contact the right people. I also don't believe that 100 isn't enough for evryone but on my few years in I have seen some idiots who were w students. There is a gap and it needs to be shortened.


Akey  (A License)

Mar 3, 2007, 5:46 PM
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Is this number the same for in the UK? I thought it was more like 200 over here but i could be wrong... At any rate, would anybody really pay anything to be coached by someone with 100 jumps?


Ms.sofaking

Mar 3, 2007, 6:20 PM
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I don't disagree that not everyone is good at teaching regardless of skill.And high jump numbers will not make you a good teacher.I just question the skill level of someone with a hundred jumps being a coach.I know I can and have learned from people at this experience level, but not as a coach.I don't know why I'm posting anyway, at my DZ we all just help each other out.We are aware of are different experience levels, and ratings aren't worn like some kind of badge.We're all just skydivers looking out for one another.I guess I'm lucky to be at my DZ.


velvetjo  (D License)

Mar 3, 2007, 7:32 PM
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Best I can figure, the coach rating is a developmental position for the instructor cadre at a DZ. That means a coach is as good or bad as the instructors who supervise them, no?

If there are coaches out there without the appropriate skills, I'd look to the course directors and chief instructors that are allowing this to happen as the root cause. I know that both of the folks who signed off my coach rating would have failed me without hesitation if I didn't demonstrate the necessary skills - no matter what my jump numbers were.

Having the coach rating for a year or two before becoming an instructor helped me learn a lot from senior instructors. If people put as much effort into developing coaches as they do bashing them, it sure seems like we'd all be a lot farther ahead. How many times have you heard someone say: "...he's just a coach..." What kind of message does that send to these future instructors? What does that tell you about the person who said it?

So do something positive. Go work with a coach on their teaching technique. Be a positive example for them, and respect them for what they're trying to learn. Show them better ways to interact with students. Do practice jumps with them as the "student from hell". Give them tips you've picked up from your students over the years. They might even listen. And maybe, if you're good enough at developing them, they'll even buy you a beer after the sunset load.

Lance


DougH  (D License)

Mar 3, 2007, 8:43 PM
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Re: [Ms.sofaking] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just question the skill level of someone with a hundred jumps being a coach.

Is there something ironic about a jumper with only 33 jumps questioning whether some one is skilled enough to be a coach at 100 jumps? Crazy

Akey,

Personally I plan on getting the rating down the road, and I don't intend on charging jumpers. I just want the chance to help students.


(This post was edited by DougH on Mar 3, 2007, 8:48 PM)


Ms.sofaking

Mar 3, 2007, 9:21 PM
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maybe when I have 134 jumps I'll be entitled to have an opinion.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 3, 2007, 9:30 PM
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In reply to:
The coach has EVOLVED into making money for the DZ (not all but many). The Coach was intended PRIMARILY to bridge the gap between "Off Student Status" and "not licensed".

A coach and the "A" license card combined is a good thing for our sports younger jumpers to learn right from wrong.
It is up to us as a group and us as older jumpers to ensure that the intent of the program is maintained.
I like the letter idea. I had to get 3 for my Tandem Examiner Rating, so 1 for a Coach Candidate seems fair.

Matt
I completely agree. Where it's different at our DZ however, is that coaches aren't paid. They may get their slot paid, but otherwise, it's just a rating.

IMO, the coach rating is really an "instructor in training" rating.


(This post was edited by DSE on Mar 3, 2007, 10:06 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 3, 2007, 10:09 PM
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Re: [Ms.sofaking] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

>Coaching someone when I have 3x the skill I currently have now, I
>find simply laughable.No way.It would be ridiculous. Could I jump with
>someone new and teach them something?Probably.I could possibly do
>that now.But Coach?No.

"Jumping with someone new and teaching them something" IS coaching. It's just a fancy word that means the same thing.

>If you had a choice between being coached by someone with a
>hundred jumps or a thousand who are you going to pick?

A thousand, probably. Now let's say your choices are between the guy with 150 jumps with a coach rating and the guy with 220 who doesn't know how to spot or plan a dive, and whose idea of a debrief is "that was radical, dude! What the fuck?" Which one will you pick then? Because at many DZ's the choice is not between Dan BC or a coach with 100 jumps - it's a choice between several people with a few hundred jumps each. (The guys with 1000 jumps are often taking up AFF students or training.)

I don't think that skill is the primary issue here. The coach rating does not mean you are qualified to teach Arizona Divewerks the vertical move on block 22. It only means you have the basic teaching skills to plan a dive, take the guy up and debrief him. It's teaching skill, not flying skill, that the coach rating is all about.

I think the whole "if he can't fly circles around me he's a bad coach" thing is sorta missing the point. I mean, if someone with 2700 jumps jumps with a 100-jump coach, he probably won't get much out of it. But a jumper with 8 jumps is probably going to get a LOT out of that same coach. Is he going to learn how to back in on a 100 way? No. But might he learn to spot a bit better, or match fallrates a little better, or not backslide? He definitely might. And you don't need thousands of jumps to set a stable target for someone.


Ms.sofaking

Mar 3, 2007, 10:23 PM
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I agree with what you're saying.I'm happy to jump and learn from anyone, provided they have they the skills to manuever around my lack of skill, if need be.
I just meant if I was paying for a lesson I would prefer to pay someone with more experience.


DougH  (D License)

Mar 4, 2007, 5:42 AM
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In reply to:
maybe when I have 134 jumps I'll be entitled to have an opinion.

Sure! Tongue You will definetly be entitled to your opinion at 134 jumps, not one jump before.


Ms.sofaking

Mar 4, 2007, 6:37 AM
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I can't wait!!!
The weather is looking good this week.I should be well on my way to having an opinion!Smile


MagicGuy  (D 30470)

Mar 4, 2007, 5:29 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I just question the skill level of someone with a hundred jumps being a coach.

Is there something ironic about a jumper with only 33 jumps questioning whether some one is skilled enough to be a coach at 100 jumps? Crazy

Glad you said it before I could, Doug.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. 100 jumps is not someone with a ton of experience. But someone that has 100 jumps over the course of years is much different than someone who has 100 jumps in a short time span. Currency means a lot.


2shay  (D 1)

Mar 4, 2007, 8:11 PM
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I would like to hear from everyone that does submit concerns to the uspa

Thanks joel


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 4, 2007, 8:20 PM
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Re: [MagicGuy] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

>But someone that has 100 jumps over the course of years is much
>different than someone who has 100 jumps in a short time span. Currency
> means a lot.

OTOH, someone who has 100 jumps over 2 years has _seen_ a lot more than someone with 100 jumps in 3 months. Different skills, both valuable. It's a tough call as to which is 'better' in a coach.


DougH  (D License)

Mar 5, 2007, 4:34 AM
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In reply to:
OTOH, someone who has 100 jumps over 2 years has _seen_ a lot more than someone with 100 jumps in 3 months. Different skills, both valuable. It's a tough call as to which is 'better' in a coach.

Two more years of experince, I can agree with that.

On the flip side the guy banging out 200 jumps in his first year has spent an awful amount of time on the DZ hanging out with experinced jumpers, the pilot, the student operation, and the DZO's. Smile

50 jumps over two years could mean that some one just comes out occasionally, does a jump or two and leaves. That might leave less opertunity to suck things up?

I won't begin to claim to know which is better.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 5, 2007, 4:44 AM
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If you want someone to teach you advanced, world-class skydiving, the young jump numbers cannot help you.

If you want someone to teach you basic skydiving skills and safety then young jump numbers can help you.

And, of course, teaching skills and skydiving skills are two different aninals and the best world is the one where the Coach has both.

To all you Coach-rating naysayers, let me ask you.
Was it better for the youngsters before the Coach rating came about or after?

I would venture to say that it is better now if for no other reason than, on the face of things, at least you know that the "teachers" have had some sort of testing and training. In a related sort of way, having an AFFI teach is better than having Joe Blow teach.


2shay  (D 1)

Mar 5, 2007, 8:52 AM
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I don't think that anyone is arguing this point. Yes, it is better to have someone wtih you that you know had to go through some sort of training to get his or her rating. But, I do think that they need to raise the standards on how many jumps they need to have, obviously some people see this as a problem and if the standards were raised this would HELP close that gap.


(This post was edited by 2shay on Mar 5, 2007, 8:54 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 5, 2007, 8:54 AM
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>But, I do think that they need to raise the standards on how many jumps they need to have . . .

This would reduce the number of coaches, which will hurt newer jumpers (IMO.) Newer jumpers need someone to jump with, someone who understands at least the basics of coaching.


2shay  (D 1)

Mar 5, 2007, 8:57 AM
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This is why i believe on qualtiy over quantity. You can always bring coaches out of the woodwork if you ask. If not maybe the dzo should put on a course for qualified skydivers or pay their gas or somehting if they have to go somewhere else. I don't think that would be unreasonable.


velvetjo  (D License)

Mar 5, 2007, 9:08 AM
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So, what's the magic number of jumps and why? I'm not convinced that the jump numbers matter as much as the flying & teaching skill sets needed to instruct students well.

Also, wouldn't an increase to the required jumps for a coach rating both reduce the pool of coaches and cause more non-rated D-licensed jumpers to fill this vacuum? That's effectively shifting a portion of student training to non-certified coaches. Some of these folks may be great teachers, but that's certainly not a given. This seems to contradict your statement above that a trained & certified coach is preferable.

Crazy

Lance


2shay  (D 1)

Mar 5, 2007, 9:26 AM
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maybe 200-250 thereis no magic number as i said boosting the standards would only help shorten the gap of incompetent teachers and that goes along with the skill of flying and teaching. The jump numbers are just a basis. As i said in my last post quality over quantity this is the wrong sport to take the risk of iggnorance.


(This post was edited by 2shay on Mar 5, 2007, 9:29 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 5, 2007, 10:13 AM
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In reply to:
maybe 200-250 thereis no magic number as i said boosting the standards would only help shorten the gap of incompetent teachers and that goes along with the skill of flying and teaching. The jump numbers are just a basis. As i said in my last post quality over quantity this is the wrong sport to take the risk of iggnorance.

What kind of ignorance is acceptable? By comparison to Peek, Billvon, or Bill Booth, you and I are both incomparable, ignorant morons.
By comparison with any jumper with say...10 jumps, you and I are skygods.
On the other hand, there is a newbie rigger in the Gear forum that doesn't understand flat packing vs propacking, and another rigger that didn't know what an MLW is. One of them claims 100,000 jumps, while the other claims 500+ jumps. IMO, neither one of them should be riggers, but I'm not the rigger examiner, so my opinion doesn't matter. But at the end of the day, these guys that are FAA certified to pack reserves don't know about flat-packs, propacks, and MLW's. That's basic stuff that even a low-number jumper like me understands.
So where do you draw the line? USPA, after a lot of discussion, input, arguing, whatever, determined that 100 jumps is sufficient to be a coach. You could set the number at 150, 200, 300...and still leave a percentage unhappy with the baseline. Look at all the threads bitching about how low the requirements for an AFFI rating is. Look at the bitching about how low the TM rating is...
As long as there are jumpers with numbers greater than the rating requires, and as long as there are jumpers with lesser numbers than the rating requires, the only people who will be at the least, accepting of the benchmark, are those that aspire to it, and those that are near that rating goal.

For me, I'm well past the numbers you're wanting a coach to have, so it's a moot point, personally. But I sure as hell wish there had been a 100 jump coach to help me out when I was just getting going. During a busy tandem season, AFF season, and the C/D license "Jump with my buddies" time, it's tough to find a D license holder that has time to jump. 'Course, if you want the newbies to sit around all day in hopes of jumping with someone of quality, now you've got a great program for getting folks to want to come back to the DZ.Crazy(tongue in cheek, in case you didn't get it)
Unless of course, the student in question is a cute lil' lady. Then *everyone* wants to jump w/her.
Do you have your coach rating? Been through the process? Do you jump with newbies on your own dime?

[edited to add] doesn't matter what industry you're in, incompetent teachers exist at every level. Years of experience don't ameliorate idiocy, it just means they've got years of experience.


(This post was edited by DSE on Mar 5, 2007, 12:52 PM)


velvetjo  (D License)

Mar 5, 2007, 11:19 AM
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In reply to:
maybe 200-250 thereis no magic number as i said boosting the standards would only help shorten the gap of incompetent teachers and that goes along with the skill of flying and teaching. The jump numbers are just a basis. As i said in my last post quality over quantity this is the wrong sport to take the risk of iggnorance.

I'm getting some really mixed messages here. Quality over quantity seems to agree that low jump numbers can be okay - is this what you're saying? Also, doesn't shifting this training to non-rated jumpers open the door for some very sketchy "instruction" for advanced students? Sure seems like there's more "risk of ignorance" in that route.

As far as the magic number goes, what exactly are you planning to ask USPA to do then? As a suggestion, maybe it's more appropriate to require a C license, which at least has some additional breadth of experience requirements than simply asking for 200 jumps. The bottom line is figuring out a way to develop junior instructional staff more effectively. What effect does increasing the jump number requirement have on that, if any?

Just out of curiosity, did you try to help the new coaches that you saw making the mistakes cited in the original post? If so, what did you do? If not, why not?

Lance

edited for spelling


(This post was edited by velvetjo on Mar 5, 2007, 1:40 PM)


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Mar 5, 2007, 11:22 AM
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In reply to:
I'm not convinced that the jump numbers matter as much as the flying & teaching skill sets needed to instruct students well.

I agree.

Teaching skill or lack thereof varies by person, not number of jumps. For flying skills, the jumps done in the certification course adequately represent what's going to happen with a "student" with 8+ jumps. If someone with 100 jumps is capable of being "there" on those jumps, why shouldn't they have the rating?


DougH  (D License)

Mar 5, 2007, 12:40 PM
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Re: [2shay] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

So are you a coach? Do you take the time to jump with students on your own buck?


DJL  (C License)

Mar 5, 2007, 12:43 PM
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In reply to:
OTOH, someone who has 100 jumps over 2 years has _seen_ a lot more than someone with 100 jumps in 3 months. Different skills, both valuable. It's a tough call as to which is 'better' in a coach.

This summarizes my thoughts completely. I'm working on the coach rating right now and I have over 700 jumps, fly well, and speak in clear language. I don't think the skills required for this rating are beyond someone with 100 jumps, but what everyone must understand is that the coach jumps must be under the supervision of an instructor rated jumper. Coaches earn their rating by being tested by rated jumpers, not the USPA, they are then allowed to jump with students by permission of the dropzone staff, not the USPA.

A lot of what I'm hearing here is exactly what everyone rants about in other threads, that the USPA or FAA should get out of their hair because we can do it ourselves. So I say that if you don't think it's being done right then get rated and do it right yourself. Don't just sit there and criticize from the sideline.


2shay  (D 1)

Mar 5, 2007, 1:05 PM
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that was in refference to not being enough coaches. I would rather see some good ones rather than a lot of so so ones. Also if you read my first post it was that i posted this for those who wanted to voice their concerns with folks at uspa not to sit here and further substantiate my opinions.

Joel


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 5, 2007, 1:44 PM
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>I would rather see some good ones rather than a lot of so so ones.

We have both today, which I think is how it should be. Want to learn vertical moves? Get a good RW coach. Just want someone to help you learn not to backslide? Get someone with 100 jumps and a coach rating.


pilotdave  (D License)

Mar 5, 2007, 2:32 PM
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I don't understand what learning vertical moves has to do with (USPA) coaching. Hiring an RW coach isn't what's being talked about. It's about students jumping with USPA coaches to finish the requirements for the A-license.

I doubt I've met anyone with 100 jumps that has the skill to jump with students and provide them with really useful feedback. But if there are people like that out there, great, give them ratings. If dropzones are hiring coaches that can't stay with students or can't teach them effectively, whether the coach has 100 jumps or 1000, they're short changing their students.

But is bad coaching worse than no coaching? 8 years ago I didn't get any real instruction beyond the 7 AFF levels. I'm sure I could have learned a lot from someone with 100 jumps who was also able to pass the evals of the coach course, assuming they didn't get off easy!

Dave


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 5, 2007, 2:36 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm not convinced that the jump numbers matter as much as the flying & teaching skill sets needed to instruct students well.

I agree.

Teaching skill or lack thereof varies by person, not number of jumps. For flying skills, the jumps done in the certification course adequately represent what's going to happen with a "student" with 8+ jumps. If someone with 100 jumps is capable of being "there" on those jumps, why shouldn't they have the rating?

I don't think a course lasting a couple of days transfers much in the way of teaching skills. Just my opinion, of course. as someone who's been teaching since 1968.


velvetjo  (D License)

Mar 5, 2007, 2:50 PM
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In reply to:
I don't think a course lasting a couple of days transfers much in the way of teaching skills. Just my opinion, of course. as someone who's been teaching since 1968.

That's true, but at least it gives a new coach a foundation from which to work. Sure seems better than nothing. Conversely, I'm sure we've all encountered teachers who've been teaching badly for a long time. Neither is ideal.

If a candidate goes to the coach course fully prepared, they should have already spent a reasonable amount of time at their home DZ working on both teaching & flying skills. Again, this goes back to the responsibilities of the chief instructor to only sign a candidate's card if they believe that he or she has the necessary skills.

Lance


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 5, 2007, 3:09 PM
Post #37 of 54 (732 views)
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Re: [2shay] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
that was in refference to not being enough coaches. I would rather see some good ones rather than a lot of so so ones. Also if you read my first post it was that i posted this for those who wanted to voice their concerns with folks at uspa not to sit here and further substantiate my opinions.

Joel

Everyone would prefer great coaches, which would lead to phenomenal AFFI's in most cases, yes?
But as posted in the other thread,
Quote:
"That's like a one eyed dude with thick glasses leading the blind. "
but it's better than no one helping out/instructing anyone.
You'd rather leave smaller DZ's with no one at all due to the smaller pool?
Either way, you're right on one level,...folks should voice their opinions to the USPA on either side of the issue.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 5, 2007, 5:11 PM
Post #38 of 54 (707 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

>I doubt I've met anyone with 100 jumps that has the skill to jump with
>students and provide them with really useful feedback.

I've met a few. To me it has far more to do with teaching ability than with skydiving skill.

>But if there are people like that out there, great, give them ratings. If
>dropzones are hiring coaches that can't stay with students or can't teach
>them effectively, whether the coach has 100 jumps or 1000, they're short
>changing their students.

I agree there.


tdog  (D 28800)

Mar 5, 2007, 8:01 PM
Post #39 of 54 (656 views)
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Re: [2shay] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There has been a lot of talk of coach jump requirements.

I agree...

Here is my proposition...

REMOVE ALL JUMP NUMBER REQUIREMENTS from the coach rating. 1 or 1,000 jumps - I don't care... It is about:

Passion to teach

Passion to learn

Ability to teach

Ability to learn

If a course evaluator was doing his our her job correctly, they would know without asking jump numbers if the candidate is ready to coach...

I consider myself still a novice, however I am an AFF instructor and have no problems handing off students to coaches with limited experience so as long as they teach and motivate well and don't over advertise their ability...

There is nothing about jump numbers that says anything... Jump numbers are for people who think some number makes them smarter, sexy, or have a bigger Johnson...

I honestly don't give a crap about jump numbers...

A very well respected AFF course director said to a candidate who passed the AFF course with the minimum requirements: "You are the future of the sport, you have used modern training methods like tunnels, and advanced coaching, to achieve what people years ago could only dream of. The old timers who are so set in their ways are going to have to either change their attitude, or get out of your way as you pave the new path."

So, give me a petition that says, "All rating canidates will be evaluated on a strict set of documented and uniform required skills, and shall not be discriminated against due to their sexual orientation, ethnicity, appearance, jump numbers, or training methods."

I would sign that petition in a heartbeat... Who cares about jump numbers, all it proves is someone knows how to punch a hole in the sky. I care about ability to motivate, ability to mentor, and ability to share knowledge...

Honestly, when I look for a coach for myself, I have never asked, "how many jumps do you have?" It does not matter. What matters is their ability to communicate, to teach, and to want to teach!!!!Blush


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 5, 2007, 8:48 PM
Post #40 of 54 (643 views)
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Re: [tdog] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

>REMOVE ALL JUMP NUMBER REQUIREMENTS from the coach rating. 1 or 1,000 jumps - I don't care...

I would agree with that PROVIDED we have a truly skills-based certification (as opposed to a "well we really need AFF instructors so we're going to get this batch out there." take on it.)


tdog  (D 28800)

Mar 5, 2007, 8:59 PM
Post #41 of 54 (635 views)
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Re: [billvon] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>REMOVE ALL JUMP NUMBER REQUIREMENTS from the coach rating. 1 or 1,000 jumps - I don't care...

I would agree with that PROVIDED we have a truly skills-based certification (as opposed to a "well we really need AFF instructors so we're going to get this batch out there." take on it.)

I think those course directors should be removed from the system. I know of one right away I would suggest, but I would never say publicly....

I know a few people who asked, "who is the easy evaluator?" I always tried to find the hardest. Earning a rating should be earning, not giving...

It is the evaluators who are screwing up, not the ones with low jump numbers....


LordRatner  (C 35885)

Mar 5, 2007, 9:07 PM
Post #42 of 54 (631 views)
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Re: [Ms.sofaking] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
maybe when I have 134 jumps I'll be entitled to have an opinion.
You'll be surprised with how much you learn in those 101 jumps. I know I was.

I think my 100-jump coach was awesome. He explained what I needed to know, and was good enough in the air (great when compared to me at the time) to show me where I was lacking.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Mar 5, 2007, 10:15 PM
Post #43 of 54 (625 views)
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Re: [tdog] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think those course directors should be removed from the system. I know of one right away I would suggest, but I would never say publicly....

So, if you don't say or do anything, who will?


tdog  (D 28800)

Mar 5, 2007, 10:28 PM
Post #44 of 54 (620 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think those course directors should be removed from the system. I know of one right away I would suggest, but I would never say publicly....

So, if you don't say or do anything, who will?

I have to pretty high ranking people at the USPA... But that won't help, this is a good olde boys club. And to people seeking ratings who ask me privately who to go to. (I don't say who NOT to go to, but I say who I like instead.)

I am doing my part by sending the candidates (and their money) to the good guys... If we all did that, the bad guys would not have the money to support their business. Just another way to make change when politics won't allow it higher up the food chain.


(This post was edited by tdog on Mar 5, 2007, 10:29 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 5, 2007, 10:45 PM
Post #45 of 54 (615 views)
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Re: [tdog] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

So, you've told "high ranking people at USPA" but how are they supposed to deal with it when their instructor/examiners are buddy/buddy, or when the evaluator in question is maybe a reseller or buyer of whatever the evaluator has for sale or is buying?

I can't help but keep looking at the threads in the Rigging forum where someone comments "He bought his riggers ticket from XXX" and then some unnamed person is referred to. Then a couple others that clearly shouldn't have passed the riggers cert post about MLW's and "what is it."
In other words, if it goes to the top, it goes to the top at all levels, yes?
I worry more about a rigger not knowing how to flat pack or not knowing what a main lift web is than I'd worry about a 100 jump buddy that has a coach rating.

this sport needs more "friendlies" helping bring and retain skydivers, not fewer, IMO.

BTW, Bob Dino...you're a hero of a coach. when did you start helping out?


PeterB  (D 777777)

Mar 5, 2007, 10:53 PM
Post #46 of 54 (614 views)
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Re: [skybytch] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I agree.

Teaching skill or lack thereof varies by person, not number of jumps. For flying skills, the jumps done in the certification course adequately represent what's going to happen with a "student" with 8+ jumps. If someone with 100 jumps is capable of being "there" on those jumps, why shouldn't they have the rating?

Agreed. Just have to take into account that the relationship of good vs bad coaches is the same in the 100 jump group as in the 1000+ jump group. Just a general population distribution so to speak.

So, you could have very inexperienced people going up with newbies. And the newbies are full of shit.

I'd rather be up with someone with 1000 jumps who is full of shit than someone with 150 who's full of the same.

Beside, everyone knows the 100 jump coach rating is all about bragging rights. Tongue


mnskydiver688  (D 30125)

Mar 6, 2007, 7:18 AM
Post #47 of 54 (572 views)
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Re: [PeterB] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

I would hope that for most people it has nothing to do with bragging. I jump at a small dz and most of the students that make jumps are still in the early parts of progression. I would like to become a coach to help out the other instructors when the students get close to the end of the licensing process. If I was able to jump with students without a rating I would do it. I want to be active in the process of student progression because I want to help continue to get new jumpers licensed.


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 6, 2007, 7:25 AM
Post #48 of 54 (588 views)
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Re: [tdog] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Regardless of how good you are in a tunnel or on your 4-way team at 10, 100, 1000 jumps, or how good you are as a teacher, there are some aspects of skydiving that REQUIRE the experience that only comes with having made a bunch of jumps.


tdog  (D 28800)

Mar 6, 2007, 7:28 AM
Post #49 of 54 (587 views)
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Re: [DSE] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, you've told "high ranking people at USPA" but how are they supposed to deal with it when their instructor/examiners are buddy/buddy, or when the evaluator in question is maybe a reseller or buyer of whatever the evaluator has for sale or is buying?


I addressed that in the last post... I know I can't expect the USPA to pay attention to me. Clearly there are politics at play, so as a low level non-elected jumper, my solution is recommending the good guys so the money and business makes the good guys more successful.

Now, I am not working off second hand knowledge. I evaluated coaches for one of the course directors. This person did not pay me a dime, and did not have enough people helping, so I ended up having to evaluate 4 people in one day for both ground and air evals when I only agreed to 2. I have also studied under (been evaluated under) three other course directors, so I had three other people to compare this director to.

These candidates paid the full fee, but the instructor did not teach the core fundamentals I was EXPECTED to know for my coach and AFF ratings. These candidates wanted to be AFFIs in the future... They wanted to learn. They needed to learn for their goals.

After all of them were going to fail due to automatic unsats on the eval form - I ended up saying, "guys, why are you not doing XXX". They said, "what is XXX?" When I quizzed them, they did not know from the IRM most of the stuff, as they did not fully read or study the IRM in the course.

Now we are not talking very detailed nuts and bolts, but instead things that are right on the eval form. For an example, I said, "What is Whole, Part, Whole"? (the 5th thing to be tested) and no one knew.

At the end of the evaluations I got the guys to understand and perform to a level I would expect. They all had the flying skills, but had not been taught the fundamentals of the USPA program.

One candidate told me, "He was terrible, I owe you for teaching me all this, I appreciate it. I wish I could get my money back from him and give it to you."

So, what we can do as friends helping other friends getting a rating - refer them to the good guys. Where the money goes, so will support for future operations. Where the money leaves, so will their ability to continue to not do a good job.

Also, when you see someone who is working for a rating, be a tough evaluator/mentor. Make sure they have the knowledge so everyone will say, "ya he has only 100 jumps, but he earned his rating and is doing a great job."


tdog  (D 28800)

Mar 6, 2007, 7:30 AM
Post #50 of 54 (586 views)
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Re: [kallend] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Regardless of how good you are in a tunnel or on your 4-way team at 10, 100, 1000 jumps, or how good you are as a teacher, there are some aspects of skydiving that REQUIRE the experience that only comes with having made a bunch of jumps.

Yes, that is the beauty of all of us learning from all of us... Just because someone has a rating, does not mean they can't stop learning.

Hopefully all of us will continue to seek info from the very experienced guys... But you don't need to always jump with someone with millions of jumps, as everyone has knowledge they can share that has value.


PeterB  (D 777777)

Mar 6, 2007, 8:17 AM
Post #51 of 54 (419 views)
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Re: [mnskydiver688] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue in cheek bro. Don't underestimate the bragging rights part though. You'll meet a good number of people who'll try to inject "I'm a coach" into everything. Works with whuffos and noobs. it gets a 'meh, annoying' from me.

It usually goes away as the person gains more experience. You seem to have a very healthy and positive attitude about it.

It seems to me a bit that the coach rating legitimises charging people for stuff you should do for free. It's particularly bad at big DZs but happens at small DZs as well.

At smaller ones such as my own it's common to pay your own slot, unless it's like 10 jumps in a row. Just a give-back-to-community thing. I prefer this because it keeps things relaxed and fun and builds relationships.




In reply to:
I would hope that for most people it has nothing to do with bragging. I jump at a small dz and most of the students that make jumps are still in the early parts of progression. I would like to become a coach to help out the other instructors when the students get close to the end of the licensing process. If I was able to jump with students without a rating I would do it. I want to be active in the process of student progression because I want to help continue to get new jumpers licensed.


yjumpinoz  (D 13167)

Mar 6, 2007, 9:55 AM
Post #52 of 54 (393 views)
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Re: [kallend] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree. I also believe that you can always seek out people who will advance your skills no matter how good you think you are. That is why I seek out respected organizers to challenge my skills. It isn't cheap, but well worth it. When the student is ready, a teacher will appear.


(This post was edited by yjumpinoz on Mar 6, 2007, 11:47 AM)


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Mar 6, 2007, 2:55 PM
Post #53 of 54 (349 views)
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Re: [DSE] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
when did you start helping out?

Thanks for the compliment. I started helping out when I had 4-500 jumps. Prior to that I didn't feel I had the experience to be able to analyze what people were doing and give them the information the needed.

It may be worth noting that I do have experience in teaching from other sports, though that was quite a while ago. I believe, though I'm not certain, that that carries over to my coaching of skydiving. I've also been lucky enough to be around some top class coaches (cf. Michael Vaughan), whose teaching methods I've shamelessly stolen Angelic.

As to whether I'm actually any good, methinks you'd have to ask some more senior jumpers and/or the people I've coached.


(This post was edited by bob.dino on Mar 6, 2007, 2:59 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 6, 2007, 6:49 PM
Post #54 of 54 (311 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] coach rating jump requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, having watched you work with people coming from a very wide range of skills (30 to 300 jumps) in the same group, I was impressed. My daughter came away better for the experience with your group.
I teach 4 days a week at the university; I hope those teaching skills carry over to being a coach, when/if I achieve that rating.



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