Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not?

 

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CrazyL  (D 17699)

Mar 6, 2007, 10:55 AM
Post #101 of 136 (2250 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are a couple of things i'd like to add here. In the past: 1. removal of the RSL lanyard from a riser exposes the hook velcro to wear on the reserve riser that the velcro would then touch. Of course I would put pile velcro on to protect the hook velcro and riser,makes since, manufacturer verbally approved this method for me but not in writing. 2. The jumper may disconnect the RSl shackle as they choose. There are no instructions on where to connect the shackle when not in use, nor instructions to let it dangle free when unshackled.The RSL is still a live ripcord. Causes a guessing game for the jumper on what and where to hook up the RSl shackle when the shackle is disconnected by the jumper. You and I know ways to hook up an RSL to stow the shackle in a place where it will not affect the deployment or release system.


RiggerLee

Mar 6, 2007, 11:15 AM
Post #102 of 136 (2233 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In the past that was every ones understanding. The whole story changed when Appelton went in. Their new stand on the issue has no wiggle room in it.

Lee


dorbie

Mar 6, 2007, 1:11 PM
Post #103 of 136 (2198 views)
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Re: [billvon] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I find it ridiculous that Sunpath are telling me I can't undo the snap shackle on my RSL unless I'm in an emergency. I was hoping that the call for clarification would result in a different response, and fall in line with your earlier interpretation Bill, but the opposite has happened, I guess that's why clarification was required.

Here I was fat, happy and stupid thinking I would be unaffected by this mess because my RSL is still on my Odyssey and now this. Is Sunpath TRYING to impact EVERY customer the have? My rig is pre 2007 it has no Collins lanyard (added because it's one of Bill's skyhook prerequisites, but it sure wouldn't have hurt Appleton to have one). This edict does not make jumpers with earlier Sunpath rigs safer IMHO.

It looks like CYA to me but it seems from other posts that Sunpath has been trying to triangulate a position w.r.t. the Appleton incident and they've really painted themselves into a corner with a succession of ill considered comments. This is just the latest itteration.


dorbie

Mar 6, 2007, 1:34 PM
Post #104 of 136 (2180 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the past that was every ones understanding. The whole story changed when Appelton went in. Their new stand on the issue has no wiggle room in it.

Lee

Do the new RSL rules actually change things in relation to what happened to Appleton though? Wouldn't the local master rigger have signed off on the mod, then someone else would still have subsequently changed the cutaway cable and Appleton's rig would have been in the same configuration on that jump. The only difference would have been a master rigger's note on the packing card.

The biggest change Sunpath has made that could directly impact similar incidents is that Sunpath includes a Collins lanyard on new rigs. Any rig maker could have made that decision years before Appleton went in.


(This post was edited by dorbie on Mar 6, 2007, 1:36 PM)


sunshine  (D License)

Mar 6, 2007, 1:55 PM
Post #105 of 136 (2160 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
On that topic I wonder how all of Sunpath's sponsored teams are going to feel when they are told that their camera flyers need to have them installed and hooked up again or get a master rigger to alter them.

I'm sure they'll have no problemo getting a master rigger to sign off on the alteration.


wilcox

Mar 6, 2007, 2:03 PM
Post #106 of 136 (2160 views)
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Re: Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ridiculous.

Cutting the rings and velcro away does nothing for added safety.


(This post was edited by wilcox on Mar 6, 2007, 2:03 PM)


dorbie

Mar 6, 2007, 2:24 PM
Post #107 of 136 (2142 views)
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Re: [wilcox] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ridiculous.

Cutting the rings and velcro away does nothing for added safety.

Then if you're a Master Rigger you could simply remove the lanyard leave the rest in place and sign that off as the modification. If you're not you'll have to find one to agree with you and sign off on that.


AMax

Mar 6, 2007, 5:48 PM
Post #108 of 136 (2088 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

As a Javelin owner I am not happy about potential complications with RSL (I don't use one). However, an idea to refuse packing Javelins in response to new Sunpath service bulletin is simply ridiculous. Fortunately, it is highly unlikely that this idea will be supported by majority of riggers in US ... LOL Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007, 6:54 PM
Post #109 of 136 (2066 views)
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Re: [AMax] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Fortunately, it is highly unlikely that this idea will be supported by majority of riggers in US ... LOL

After what Sunpath did to a rigger that removed the RSL in a rig involved in an incident - I think many riggers will think twice about disregarding the bulletin.


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 6, 2007, 6:56 PM
Post #110 of 136 (2063 views)
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Re: [AMax] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just like there are those who refuse to or charge 3 times the going rate to pack racers or reflex's. Laugh all you want, I'll bet you will see some riggers refuse to service SP products, just as there are master in TX right now who refuse to sign off data cards for the removal of the RSL. Me personally I'm not worried about it there are two masters around who will sign off on it, so if someone shows up I will send them to the masters.Wink


(This post was edited by stratostar on Mar 6, 2007, 6:58 PM)


jdthomas  (D License)

Mar 6, 2007, 7:11 PM
Post #111 of 136 (2056 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 If I held stock in Sunpath i would be selling right about now and getting out while I could.


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 6, 2007, 7:15 PM
Post #112 of 136 (2053 views)
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Re: [jdthomas] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If I held stock in Sunpath i would be selling right about now and getting out while I could.

Well I do and now the value of my rig just tanked.Wink


(This post was edited by stratostar on Mar 6, 2007, 7:16 PM)


dorbie

Mar 6, 2007, 9:35 PM
Post #113 of 136 (2016 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If I held stock in Sunpath i would be selling right about now and getting out while I could.

Well I do and now the value of my rig just tanked.Wink

At least the waiting list will be nice & short for a new one with collins lanyard and skyhook.

Question: If the jumper is a Master Rigger can he undo his snap shackle before a jump?Laugh


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 6, 2007, 9:40 PM
Post #114 of 136 (2010 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Only if it noted on the data card & in his logbook, he intends to unshackle it and has a signed note from his mom....Tongue


wilcox

Mar 7, 2007, 4:50 AM
Post #115 of 136 (1957 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Question: If the jumper is a Master Rigger can he undo his snap shackle before a jump

LaughLaugh


jdthomas  (D License)

Mar 7, 2007, 5:02 AM
Post #116 of 136 (1954 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If I held stock in Sunpath i would be selling right about now and getting out while I could.

Well I do and now the value of my rig just tanked.Wink

well there are some jumpers who actually want an RSL, so maybe the price of your rig is still decent!


fcajump  (D 15598)

Mar 7, 2007, 6:09 AM
Post #117 of 136 (1925 views)
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Re: [billvon] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Fortunately, it is highly unlikely that this idea will be supported by majority of riggers in US ... LOL

After what Sunpath did to a rigger that removed the RSL in a rig involved in an incident - I think many riggers will think twice about disregarding the bulletin.

Speaking only for myself (sr rigger), I certainly will not pack a rig without the RSL in place. I have also alearted all of the folks I pack for that have Javelin's of the policy on their web site. Were I a master rigger, I would be very reluctant to sign off on such a removal on any rig other than my own. This is (admittedly) a CYA attitude.

I am however, NOT in agreement with Sunpath. Situations as discussed here present jumps where the RSL might not be available or actually present an increased hazard...
Loaner canopy on non-RSL prepped risers.
Camera / CRW jumpers

However, in some offline discussions with them, it is MY understanding that they consider only the following to be legal:
1. Installed AND connected
2. Master Rigger removed and signed off
3. Emergency situations

I am sceptical as to how a fed would feel during a ramp check to learn that the jumper had boarded the aircraft with the RSL disconnected in a "pre-declared emergency"...

While I think RSLs are in general a good idea, I do not think this is the right approach.

BTW - their statement letter implies that this legal interpretation would apply to ALL rigs TSO'ed with an RSL (regardless of brand). Has anyone heard from other manufacturers on this?

Jim


klingeme  (D 24728)

Mar 7, 2007, 6:48 AM
Post #118 of 136 (1895 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Does "I was falling towards the earth at between 120 and 200 miles per hour" constitute an emergency situation for the FAA, if so, disconnecting the RSL would be alright for all jumps. Wink

Mark Klingelhoefer


Ms.sofaking

Mar 7, 2007, 7:18 AM
Post #119 of 136 (1882 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Quote:
I am sceptical as to how a fed would feel during a ramp check to learn that the jumper had boarded the aircraft with the RSL disconnected in a "pre-declared emergency"...

If you had an RSL you could always disconnect on the plane.If you had a mal who is to say you didn't disconnect it then."Emergency situation" is left way open to interpretation.

But what about people who got their rig from the manufacturer without an RSL to begin with?What are they supposed to do?


fcajump  (D 15598)

Mar 7, 2007, 9:40 AM
Post #120 of 136 (1825 views)
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Re: [Ms.sofaking] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


Quote:
I am sceptical as to how a fed would feel during a ramp check to learn that the jumper had boarded the aircraft with the RSL disconnected in a "pre-declared emergency"...

If you had an RSL you could always disconnect on the plane.If you had a mal who is to say you didn't disconnect it then."Emergency situation" is left way open to interpretation.

But what about people who got their rig from the manufacturer without an RSL to begin with?What are they supposed to do?

If I understood the reply I got from the factory, Javelins manufactured without an RSL now MUST be noted by a Master Rigger on the pack data card that the system was manufactured without one. (effectively, you have to get someone to attest to the non-alteration.)
OR you have to have one installed, which is itself an alteration.Unsure

Just what I was told...

JW


Ms.sofaking

Mar 7, 2007, 9:49 AM
Post #121 of 136 (1821 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

If a master rigger does this, will or can it ever be checked against a serial #?


fcajump  (D 15598)

Mar 7, 2007, 10:02 AM
Post #122 of 136 (1805 views)
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Re: [Ms.sofaking] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If a master rigger does this, will or can it ever be checked against a serial #?

Don't know... anyone else know?


Ms.sofaking

Mar 7, 2007, 10:06 AM
Post #123 of 136 (1802 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be nice if we found a loop hole we could all jump throughWink


skydivejunky  (D 22209)

Mar 7, 2007, 10:09 AM
Post #124 of 136 (1801 views)
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Re: [packertom] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay, I get a rig in to repack the reserve but it doesn't have the main and main risers, just the container and reserve. Can I pack it since I obviously can't hook up the shackle to the main risers? Or do I have to have the main to hook up the shackle? Guess I better call Sunpath and ask them eh?

John


snafuhere  (D 29581)

Mar 7, 2007, 10:32 AM
Post #125 of 136 (1781 views)
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Re: [skydivejunky] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I get a rig in to repack the reserve but it doesn't have the main and main risers, just the container and reserve. Can I pack it since I obviously can't hook up the shackle to the main risers?

another good point Unimpressed

I was observing the rsl discussion and:
1. returned my jav to rigger just after reserve repack to connect back the rsl lanyard
2. postponed my order for a new jav
3. started to look at vector

there are hundreds of new good points that stem from the javelin-pandora box


(This post was edited by snafuhere on Mar 7, 2007, 10:34 AM)


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