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Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not?

 

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RiggerLee

Feb 22, 2007, 4:57 PM
Post #51 of 136 (2616 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I ment to get around to posting this yesterday but It's been bussy. Sorry the story is so long.

First off I am the rigger or one of them that was involved with the Appleton rig. Let me say at the beginning that he was my friend and that every one at the drop zone liked him. He was one of the few really good people Iíve known and a good skydiver as well. He is still missed here. Now setting all that aside Iíll tell you the whole story. Iíve obviously been in the middle of this from the very beginning and there have been a number of little twists that donít necessarily show in just a straight rendition of the facts. Now Iím going to try and keep this as factual as I can but I can only tell it as I have seen it from my own point of view.

First off I did call Sunpath yesterday to try to get their latest position on this issue. Notice I said latest. Like a number of you that have called since PIA I couldnít get a real answer out of them. The guy I spoke to seems to be a really nice guy. They are kind of stuck on some technical issues. A lot of the questions seem to revolve around the TSO it self. In the end it comes down to the data package they submitted to the FAA, I suppose to the MIDO, in Atlanta when they originally drop tested the rig. Itís all about how it was written and the line drawing that was submitted. They have submitted several questions and are waiting for them to respond. This could and probable will take six weeks. Until then they will not release any written statement. The only thing I could get out of him was that they had drop tested the container both with and with out the RSL installed. He told me verbally that the rig was airworthy and could be packed and jumped with or with out the RSL installed. I asked him to please send that to me in writing and he refused. Now youíll notice that this conflicts with earlier statements and since it is not in writing every one is just hanging in the wind when the pendulum swings back the other way. Iím happy that they are working toward a final ruling but this waffling back and forth has been fairly characteristic of them through out this affair.

Here is a copy of the e-mail I sent them requesting written clarification. You might see if you have any questions to add.


I am requesting written clarification on the following questions in regards to the airworthiness of the system and compliance with the TSO. I would like to avoid any ambiguity in the answers and would like them in a yes or no format if possible.

If a RSL has been previously removed is it legal and air worthy to jump?

If a RSL has been previously removed is it legal for a rigger to repack the reserve with out the RSL in place?

Is it legal for a master or a senior rigger to assemble or remove the RSL on a Javelin or Odyssey container?

In these questions I use the word removed to mean not including the RSL in the assembly of rig when the ripcord is installed. If the Velcro or guide rings have been removed from the container how does that affect the legality and airworthiness of the rig?

If the Velcro and guide rings have been removed will you provide instructions and approve the reinstallation by a master rigger?

Is there a DOM or serial number at which your position on the RSL changes if so please clarify your position on each of these questions.


Lee Hardesty
Sen. Rigger
Velocity Sportswear
P.O. Box 312
Whitewright, TX 75491
903 364 1700
lee@velocitysportswear.com



The story: This actually starts well before the accident. John had just gotten two brand new Javelins. We loved him to death but he was a rich fucker and changed gear like we changed socks. They came packed from the factory ready to jump. Heíd had them for a couple of months. He was getting ready to leave for some kind of big way camp, I think it was in AZ. He went to Terry Irving, she was the master rigger that was doing most of the school rigging up in the loft at the time, and asked her to remove his RSL.

Lets do an aside here and review the thinking on all of this at the time. Javelins originally came with or with out an RSL. You had to pay x amount extra for one. No one I have ever known even thought twice about taking them on or off. The one thing you had to be careful of was that the handle had a slightly longer cable on the RSL side. That in it self was an item that is often replaced when it is lost in a cut away. Iíll get to that later. When Javelin took some of their options and made them standard and inclusive in the price of the rig as a marketing program no one thought any thing about it. And now since there was no longer the need for an extra chapter on how to hook up the RSL on special RSL equipped rigs the Manual simply glazed over it with a small comment that the RSL that was formerly optional was now standard so people would not become panicked if they saw an older rig with out one. ďYes itís ok, the rings in the drawing were never there to begin with.Ē

Now, back to Appleton. Terry was busy. She could not get to it. Now I happened to have walked in and she flagged me down and asked if I wanted to do a repack. Well I didnít have much going on and we all liked John so sure whereís the rig. I take the thing up stairs and start to look it over. I remember all of this not because of his death but because of what we found in side. Iíve done a lot of rigging at times and I deffinently donít remember them all but we got a good laugh that day and itís enough for me to recall the pack job. First thing I notice is that he doesnít need a pack job. Heís still in date. So I go down stairs to see if itís the wrong rig. Nope this is the one. He wanted the RSL off and was willing to pay for the repack to do it. I did point out to him that all he had to do was unhook the snap shackle and it would do the same thing and that he should just save his money and yank it at the next cycle. Notice that neither I nor the master rigger that gave me this project even thought to mention any type of airworthiness issue. What issue? I was just trying to save John $50 bucks. Well like I said he had dough and probable would not have blinked an eye if it were $500. Ok, far be it from me to turn down cash. Unlike John Iím not rich. So I go back up and pop the rig.

This is where it got interesting. This doesnít have any thing to do with his accident but it is why I and every one else remember the pack job. The spring did not go boing out of the container. The flaps just kind of lifted and the cap with what looked like a little black ball on the bottom of it just kind of fell off to the side. ďThatís oddĒ. This comes under the heading of things that make you go ďHmmm.Ē I reached down and picked up the ďballĒ by the 12 in of bridal that came out when it fell over. ďThatís niftyĒ. It was indeed the pilot chute. Some body had gotten very creative when they packed it. They had pulled every bit of fabric and mesh down to the bottom and then proceeded to twist it as tight as they could. They had then coiled this ďropeĒ under the flap. It had been packed up for about three months and had set like that. The pilot chute spring had not been able to unroll it and instead of springing had just bent in half in a u kind of shape. ďWell, it would seem there is a new type of packing technique being practiced at the Sunpath factory. I should study this more closely.Ē I started to swing the PC back and forth trying to get it to inflate. No Joy. Even yanking on it I could only get it to expand to about a 90 deg. Bend in the spring. It still would not catch any air. ďThe others have got to see this.Ē So I go down stairs and find Terry and a couple of other riggers, you canít shoot a rubber band with out hitting one of us, and drug them up stairs to see the newest factory approved technique. Every one got a laugh playing with it. I think John McCollum still has the pictures. Within the next half hour every rigger on the drop zone managed to come up and look at this beauty. Of course Tom goes and grabs Appleton and tells him that he was ďGoing to fucking die.Ē And all that and gets him all scared. He didnít even know how to pack his main. I wouldnít have done that my self but it did get me a good tip. Not that I did any thing. We found it because he didnít care about pissing away $50. Now none of this has a damn thing to do with the story but this is why I remember the whole incident. So to conclude I pulled the RSL off, trimmed down a peace of Velcro and stuck it on the hook and repacked the rig. Took it down stairs and dropped the rig off with Terry and got paid. I did in fact mark on the card that Iíd removed the RSL so that no one would think that that out of cycle repack had been a ride. That nearly hung me.

We skip ahead to the day that I drove over to the DZ. We had our own Loft by then in town. I walk into the gear store and the mood is rather somber. I over heard part of a conversation on the phone. It sounds rather suspicious and I asked if something had happened. That was when I was told that Appleton had gone in. Iíve lost count of how many fatalities Iíve been present during. There is always the same kind of sick empty feeling especially when it was a friend.

Some of these things are boring and almost closed cases from the start. This one was odd and left some unanswered questions. Youíll hear fifty different stories from fifty different people but here is what I think we can say. He had a malfunction on his main. He attempted to cut away. One riser for whatever reason failed to release. The reserve deployed. It entangled with the main. The other riser released but the canopies were now entangled. At some point the reserve handle had been pulled. He spun in and did not survive. In the end thatís all that can really be said about the incident.

Now letís talk about the gear. There were several repacks on the rig since I packed it and removed the RSL. One at least was a cut away. The cut away handle had been replaced with one from RWS. Heíd specifically requested one with their larger ridged tube inside. It was inspected by Gene Bland from the FSDO, Master rigger from way back, and John Stanford, manufacturer and master rigger from just about the beginning of time. Bland is good but a little out of date. Stanford is just about the sharpest rigger I know. They do not miss things. They inspected the gear down at the morgue. They found no problems with it. The risers seemed it be in spec. When suspended the left side cut away about 1.5 inches of pull after the right. That sounds just about perfect.

I donít like to speak ill of the dead, especially a friend, but I think he just got casual. He pulled until he felt himself drop and punched the reserve. The rig did exactly as it was supposed to do. It chopped the right side first. The reserve went up and the main as it spun above him entangled with the reserve. I have no doubt it happened quickly and by the time he realized what was happening it was too late. He just got sloppy and failed to pull his handle to full arm extension. He failed to fully cut away before he himself fired his own reserve into the streamer above his head. Now that sounds harsh as shit but thatís how I read it. There are plenty of other stories to explain what happened. Every one has their own idea and there have been some doozies put forward.

Now lets talk about the aftermath. Iíd like to say that the fact that it was Appleton had nothing to do with the treatment of the case. The truth is he was well known. Not as old in the sport as some and he didnít go around waving his arms screaming ďLook at me. Iím so great!Ē as has become the fashion with people trying to make a living in this sport and aspire to eat stake and living in something more then a run down trailer. He was just always there. He went to all the big ways and record attempts. People saw him. They knew him. He was liked and he was respected even if he couldnít pack for him self. He kind of set the standard for being a rich yuppie skydiver at our drop zone. Nobody was going to try to blame this on him and no one would say that he fucked up. Well Bland starts to look at this and sees I pulled the RSL off. So he looks in the manual. What does it say? That from such and such a date the rigs came standard with an RSL. Ok, So he calls them to ask what standard means? They immeadeently latch on to this saying that ďRSLís are mandatory on all of their rigs and the removal of it is undoubtedly what killed AppletonĒ. Itís looking bad for the old Leemister. Removing RSLís was a common and accepted practice on Javelins across the country but they had no problem throwing me to the wolves and cutting my throat on the alter to appease the FAA. It only took one person pointing out that if that made the javelin unairworthy that they had just grounded 80% or more of their fleet. You could hear the screeching of tires as they back peddled. Then they said, ďIt was an illegal alteration done by a sen. Rigger.Ē Wait. That grounds your fleet as well unless you had issued an alteration and each rig was signed off by a master rigger. Panic and confusion. ďIf the RSL has been removed before now then itís ok and you can continue to jump it but if you remove a RSL from now on then itís an illegal alteration and unairworthey.Ē Wait itís ether airworthy or not in that configuration right? ďWell only if it doesnít piss off our customers and make us look bad.Ē Ok, in all honestly they didnít say the last one. They really just wanted this whole thing to go away. Then they tried to shift the spotlight off their RSL on to other things. They tried to tell every one that it was not a riser release problem but a packing problem. Supposedly they found damage to a side flap and some stitches popped at the corner of the tray? Now I guess itís possible that Bland and Stanford missed something but let me tell you Iíve watched Bland inspect a rig following a fatality. He used a magnifying glass. He chided me for not keeping one in my rigging kit for that purpose. Between the two of them I donít buy that they missed any thing. Never the less the next time Jay, now the Sunpath rep, showed up there they had a new theory. He was going around trying to tell every one that would lessen that it was the packer that had killed Appleton. The Packer and the long break lines of his Specter. So Jeff was the next one on the chopping block. They had this elaborate scenario where you laid the break line like this and pulled the flap like that, and passed the flap through the loop and closed the other side with all the line clearly visible on top of the flaps, some one had to help him by the way he needed a third hand to make it work. And then when he when he goes to demonstrate how it turned into a horseshoe all it did was unstow the toggle. I never saw him succeed in making it work. He could not replicate it. Never the less he was still going around telling any one that would lessen that Jeff, a perfectly good packer and rigger, had killed Appleton. And the more you tried to reason with him the louder he would say it as if he could make him self right and win the argument through greater dessable power. So they had no problem feeding Jeff to the lionís ether to save there own reputation when as far as Iím concerned it was never in doubt. I jump a Javelin always have. And like I said, I think the rig did exactly what it was supposed to. Perfectly.

Bland was in the middle of all of this. Now a lot of people donít like him. He is a Fed and his eyes are rather beady and he can be a pain in the ass but the truth is heís not a bad guy. We talked about this and he told me straight up that depending on how things turned out he might have to put a letter in my file. Iíve known him for years and he really wasnít out to get me. If he had been heíd have been picking his teeth with my bones. He wanted to address the issue of RSLís and there removal. He wanted to do it in a formal way so that there would not be any ambiguity in the future. The truth is that he was probably right. We have been rather blasť over the years about pulling them on and off. There has been a lot of discussion about cable length. We swap out handles all the time, trimming them to fit. Just like some one did to Johns rig. We should probable be more careful about how we do that. I did not retrim his cables when I pulled the RSL. Some might but the next guy to jump his rig, he resold them, might want to put it back on. The difference in length is considered safe with an RSL installed. Iím inclined to leave it rather then risk some one putting the RSL back on and then having a premature release on the wrong side. You could say I should have trimmed it but frankly I donít trust the next rigger to buy a whole new handle to replace that length and trimming the other side below min. is not a good answer. I stand by that call. And by the way that one worked fine. It was a replacement handle that was on there in the accident. I donít think that was an issue ether though. The functional test seemed to come out right on the dot and the pull was a comfortable length. Never the less Sunpath seemed to feel that that handle was wildly out of spec.

So to conclude, what can I really tell you? Skydivers today know less about their gear then any time in the past. They are afraid of it. Sunpath and other manufacturers fear rumor. A bad rep can bring down a whole company. Not to mention a lawsuit tried before a judge or God help you a jury of woofos that is even more of a disaster. They will say what ever it takes to protect their market share. They will not stand behind you or even what they previously said. They will look for anyone they can find to place the blame on rather then them selves. In this case they were not even willing to place the blame on a well known and liked skydiver and sought to find other people to march in front of the firing squad and had no compunction about throwing peoples reputation or even there ticket or career to the wind. Not to mention the possibility of a lawsuit if the family should come looking for some ones head. Their verbal statements change on a daily bases. They refuse to make any statement in writing. They will tell me verbally to pack a rig and that I am safe and covered but refuse to state the same thing in a written signed letter. Until they will give you a signed instruction every one of you right down to the rigger on the floor with Josť closing a main beside him. Is swinging in the wind. When your customer goes in with out pulling his reserve on the next main you closeÖ More then just your head is on the chopping block. And his ďOh, your fine packing that.Ē On the phone will not count for shit. Especially with this company. Hence why Iím spending a lot more time printing T-shirts.

Lee Hardesty
Sen. Rigger
Velocity Sportswear
P.O. Box 312
Whitewright, TX 75491
903 364 1700
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com


RiggerLee

Feb 25, 2007, 2:04 PM
Post #52 of 136 (2514 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Iíd like to add a question. We were having a conversation about the possible consequences of all of this. Iím specifically looking for some one with legal insight, i.e. a lawyer. Letís say a guy goes in in the next six weeks while we wait for a ruling from the FAA. For the sake of argument well say it was a no pull after a cut away. SP is confronted by the lawyer of the vindictive family. They cave and run for cover behind the statement that the rig was illegal with out the RSL. The question we were kicking around is what could this mean?

Letís take the drop zone here as an example. Guy showed up from out of town and filled out a waver. A rigger from the drop zone did a gear check and signed off on the waver that the gear was airworthy and good to jump. A packer on the floor packed his main. He is an employ of the drop zone with a 1099 on file. He is working under the supervision of yet another rigger, employ of the drop zone. The poor guy gets on a plane and goes in.

So where are we at. Weíve got the rigger at home, the rigger here that signed off the gear, the packer, the supervising rigger, and the pilot. All but the rigger at home are in one way or another employs of the DZ. Now let me clarify that. There are actually several companies that own different things and the paper work is probably good enough to hold up. The waver is pretty good. So I mean thy are doing the best to defend them selves. Still I know there are limits to all of this. I understand that if they can prove grows negligence that a lot of the protection granted by the wavers and the incorporation goes away. I guess the question is what could be the consequences for these people personaly and the DZ? Could this actually crack the structure of the drop zone and attack some of the real assets? If the DZ was not as well protected or they found a hole in the bookkeeping or the paper work how bad could it really be? Is it limited to the people involved or cold it go higher?

Lee


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 25, 2007, 3:24 PM
Post #53 of 136 (2499 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I guess the question is what could be the consequences for these people personaly and the DZ?

If you're asking about a civil suit, they go after EVERYONE. In a now-famous case, they once went after Square One because there was a Square One packing data card in the rig. Note that the rig was not manufactured or maintained by Square One, nor did they sell it or really have anything to do with it. The rig just happened to have a Square One packing data card. (Square One no longer prints packing data cards with their names on it.)

Could they have won the resulting case? Probably not. But they could certainly drag them into a courtroom and cost them tens of thousands in legal fees - and thus force them to settle for a few thousand.


RiggerLee

Feb 25, 2007, 9:26 PM
Post #54 of 136 (2460 views)
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Re: [billvon] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

This came in as a pm but it's relative enough that I thought it wouldn't hurt to share. Also I thought it might not hurt to clarify what I was asking.


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In Reply To
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I guess the question is what could be the consequences for these people personaly and the DZ?

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The attorneys need look no further than Part 105. The FFA all but spelled out the people that could be held responsible.

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ß 105.3____ Definitions.

For the purposes of this partó

Parachute operation means the performance of all activity for the purpose of, or in support of, a parachute jump or a parachute drop. This parachute operation can involve, but is not limited to, the following persons: parachutist, parachutist in command and passenger in tandem parachute operations, drop zone or owner or operator, jump master, certificated parachute rigger, or pilot.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Michael


I responded:


Yes, that is where the FAA would begin. I'm not sure where that would leave a private lawyer. They seem to in some ways have a lot more freedom in who they name in a law suit. On the other hand when the waver is signed the signe gives up a lot of rights. One of which is the right to sue some of these people. Now we come to the question of whether the waver covers 1099 employs? Does any of this constatute grose crimanal neglegence? If so how far can the law suit go? I guess it's mostly a question of cival law rather then the FAA. At least those are the questions I was trying to get at.

Lee


RiggerLee

Feb 26, 2007, 4:34 PM
Post #55 of 136 (2378 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I just got back to the shop. We got this in today from SunPath. It came as an e-mail. So it's not a signed document but it's probable good enough. I'm surprised they haven't posted it here them selves. They say that a more formal statement will apear on there web site soon. If nothing else this seems to be a fairly clear statement as to where their position is going to fall. I have no doubt that they've aganised over this and the repocusions of it. There is going to be whining but the pain should be over rather quickly. So... any body got stack of RSL's out there?


Lee,

I understant that there has been alot of talk recently about this subject. A more formal address and clarification will be made soon on our website. I will answer your questions below:

1. If a RSL has been previously removed is it legal and air worthy to jump?

Yes, however the removal of the RSL or any RSL components must be noted on the packing data card by a MASTER RIGGER. This is considered an "alteration" to a TSO'ed system by the FAA. And, only a master rigger can "alter" a TSO'ed component.

2. If a RSL has been previously removed is it legal for a rigger to repack the reserve with out the RSL in place?

Yes, as long as the removal of the RSL components has been noted on the packing data card by a MASTER rigger.

3. Is it legal for a master or a senior rigger to A) assemble or B)remove the RSL on a Javelin or Odyssey container?

You have 2 questions here:

A) assemble: Yes, a senior rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITH an RSL

Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITH an RSL

Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITHOUT an RSL

Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITHOUT an RSL as long as the removal of the components is noted on the packing data card by a MASTER RIGGER.

B) Remove: Yes and no. ONLY a Master rigger can remove components of the RSL from the system as long as that MASTER rigger notes it on the packing data card.

In these questions I use the word removed to mean not including the RSL in the assembly of rig when the ripcord is installed. If the Velcro or guide rings have been removed from the container how does that affect the legality and airworthiness of the rig?

I think the answers above have addressed this question.

If the Velcro and guide rings have been removed will you provide instructions and approve the reinstallation by a master rigger?

Yes, but we prefer it done here at the factory.

Is there a DOM or serial number at which your position on the RSL changes if so please clarify your position on each of these questions.

NO

The Sun Path policy regarding removal of the RSL components still holds true. The Javelin and Javelin Odyssey harness/container system incorporates the reserve static line as part of the complete system and permanent removal of this part is highly discouraged and NOT recommended. However, the last line in that letter will need to be amended to read, "Our reserve static line is built with a snap shackle for easy disconnect from the main riser, in the event of an emergency situation.

Please note: the USER or OWNER cannot legally remove the RSL lanyard unless he/she is a master parachute rigger. UNLESS, the user is in an emergency situation.

More to come on the website, I hope this is what you were looking for?

DAVE


Dave Singer
Engineer
SunPath Products, Inc
Phone (813) 782-9242
FAX (813) 788-3057
dave@sunpath.com


MrBrant  (B License)

Feb 26, 2007, 4:51 PM
Post #56 of 136 (2374 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

The Sun Path policy regarding removal of the RSL components still holds true. The Javelin and Javelin Odyssey harness/container system incorporates the reserve static line as part of the complete system and permanent removal of this part is highly discouraged and NOT recommended. However, the last line in that letter will need to be amended to read, "Our reserve static line is built with a snap shackle for easy disconnect from the main riser, in the event of an emergency situation.

Please note: the USER or OWNER cannot legally remove the RSL lanyard unless he/she is a master parachute rigger. UNLESS, the user is in an emergency situation.

This seems to mean that the user is not even "permitted" to un-shackle the RSL from the main riser.
Am I interpreting this wrong? I hope so - If not that's absolutely ridiculous! Unsure


MikeForsythe

Feb 26, 2007, 6:04 PM
Post #57 of 136 (2352 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, did that add more confusion. I would like to hear from the FAA and some of the DPRE's.

How does removing the RSL become an alteration if even the end user can undo the clip and disable it? If the clip is undone then removing the RSL changes no function of the reserve system. I can see removing the rings and Velcro being an alteration (maybe) but given the present language that they are using I can't see removing the lanyard as such. In addition they have even said that the system was tested and approved with and without the RSL.

Sun Path could easily resolve this by simply saying that the RSL is required and is not to be removed.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 26, 2007, 6:26 PM
Post #58 of 136 (2342 views)
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Re: [MikeForsythe] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sun Path could easily resolve this by simply saying that the RSL is required and is not to be removed.

If they did that, I think their sales would plummet.

I think they're trying to limit the impact of their previous stupid, cover-your-ass statements on their reputation and sales.


UDSkyJunkie  (D 25746)

Feb 26, 2007, 6:30 PM
Post #59 of 136 (2336 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The RSL is a specific component that is included in the *Approved Configuration* during the TSO process. That should make it pretty clear to any rigger, no?

I would reluctantly agree with you IF all jav's were sold with an RSL installed. Since they are also sold without them installed, clearly that configuration is also approved. This can quickly get into a big argument about the definition of a "modification", and rigger privalages and a bunch of other BS.

I have to agree that the statment "highly recommended" is a poor choice of words. They should say "the RSL shall not be removed" or "removal of the RSL is considered a modification and can only be preformed by the manufacturer or a certificated master rigger" or "removal of the RSL is not recommended, but the system is certified for use without it".


MikeForsythe

Feb 26, 2007, 6:40 PM
Post #60 of 136 (2330 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If they did that, I think their sales would plummet.
I completely agree. But they are the one who insisted that the RSL stay attached to make the rig as safe as possible. I do not think that leaving riggers and owners hanging (no pun intended) for as long as they have is right either. So in the end I guess it could be said that they want you to have a rig that is safe as possible..... as long as it does not affect the bottom line?


Samurai136  (D 26609)

Feb 26, 2007, 7:05 PM
Post #61 of 136 (2318 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
2. If a RSL has been previously removed is it legal for a rigger to repack the reserve with out the RSL in place?

Yes, as long as the removal of the RSL components has been noted on the packing data card by a MASTER rigger.

This is the worst answer I've heard from a manufacturer.Unimpressed

How many people at gear check-in (boogie/ new DZ) know all the master rigger's names, signatures and seals?Wink How many riggers have legible signatures?

Every gear check-in will require internet access to verify the rigger's certification (senior/ master) via the FAA database which can only be verified by a name search.


Someone tell me I'm wrong.
Tongue


Edit: True or false? Absence of an RSL lanyard does not make the rig unsafe or un-airworthy.


(This post was edited by Samurai136 on Feb 26, 2007, 7:07 PM)


kris2extreme  (C License)

Feb 26, 2007, 7:21 PM
Post #62 of 136 (2312 views)
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Re: [Samurai136] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I also would like a good clear yes or no answer. Because as it is right now, my rigger won't repack my rig... and the rsl guide rings and velcro are long gone.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 26, 2007, 7:21 PM
Post #63 of 136 (2311 views)
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Re: [Samurai136] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

People can always just put the visible portions of the RSL on the rig after it is packed (not actually functioning), and then remove it after passing gear check.


RiggerLee

Feb 26, 2007, 7:33 PM
Post #64 of 136 (2303 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Huh? What visible portion are you refering to? The ring goes around the cable. I'm not sure which comment your responding to.

Every one does understand that the rings have to be on the flap right? That with out them to directionalize the pull you can just bend the pin 90 deg and break the RSL. You just wait I'll bet in the next six months you'll find a rig where some one just put the RSL on with no rings on the flap.

Lee


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 26, 2007, 7:37 PM
Post #65 of 136 (2298 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wasn't being too serious. Many such boogie gear checks don't even bother to open up the reserve flap, so you'd only need the shackle and the webbing leading away from it to satisfy them.


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 26, 2007, 7:53 PM
Post #66 of 136 (2289 views)
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Re: [kris2extreme] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good time to get your own ticket, then.Wink


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 26, 2007, 7:55 PM
Post #67 of 136 (2286 views)
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Re: [Samurai136] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Absence of an RSL lanyard does not make the rig unsafe or un-airworthy.

True.


hookitt  (D License)

Feb 26, 2007, 8:13 PM
Post #68 of 136 (2278 views)
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Re: [RiggerLee] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

The way the email reads, a senior rigger can not pack a Javelin with the RSL removed whether it's signed off or not.


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 26, 2007, 8:19 PM
Post #69 of 136 (2273 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
2. If a RSL has been previously removed is it legal for a rigger to repack the reserve with out the RSL in place?

Yes, as long as the removal of the RSL components has been noted on the packing data card by a MASTER rigger.

Interesting your take on the email, my take on the above was as long as it was noted and signed off by a master rigger (who removed it of courseWink) that is ok for a SR to repack it. I guess it all in how you read it.


hookitt  (D License)

Feb 26, 2007, 8:54 PM
Post #70 of 136 (2261 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you read the first part it appears the senior rigger can pack it.
Quote:
1. If a RSL has been previously removed is it legal and air worthy to jump?

Yes, however the removal of the RSL or any RSL components must be noted on the packing data card by a MASTER RIGGER. This is considered an "alteration" to a TSO'ed system by the FAA. And, only a master rigger can "alter" a TSO'ed component.

2. If a RSL has been previously removed is it legal for a rigger to repack the reserve with out the RSL in place?

Yes, as long as the removal of the RSL components has been noted on the packing data card by a MASTER rigger.

but this part, aside from the bold, leaves the senior rigger out.
Quote:
A) assemble: Yes, a senior rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITH an RSL

Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITH an RSL

Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITHOUT an RSL

Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITHOUT an RSL as long as the removal of the components is noted on the packing data card by a MASTER RIGGER.

B) Remove: Yes and no. ONLY a Master rigger can remove components of the RSL from the system as long as that MASTER rigger notes it on the packing data card.

Choose which part to read and go with it.


TV1  (D 2227)

Feb 27, 2007, 2:20 AM
Post #71 of 136 (2246 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

A manufacturer has the right to do what he wants.... of course.
But - (in my eyes only...) Sunpath makes a problem where no problem is.
There are good reasons for skydivers all over the world to remove a RSL.
So it would be a great thing for every rig manufacturer to keep the RSL as what it is: An option...

A RSL can put more safty in a rig - but it can also create some problems I have not if I have no RSL, or isnīt?
The manufacturer is not with me in the air if something does not work properly. What will say the lawyer - and my wife - to the manufacturer if there is a problem with an RSL ??? It could be a better choice for the manufacturer to let be this a personal problem from the skydiver.
We mark the position RSL on the orderform - or not... Where is the real problem??? Crazy

But in the worst case there is in the real world always an opiton: the option to buy a rig with a different label on it.
(sorry for my bad english...Crazy)


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 27, 2007, 3:24 AM
Post #72 of 136 (2237 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hook,
Please don't take my post as a "your wrong". I also saw the second paragraph and had to triple take it, but then went back over the whole thing. So my take on "their words" was as I posted. So as we all can see, I read it one way and you read it another, interesting, the whole issue is FUBAR!

Back to regular programing......Sly


SethInMI  (A 47765)

Feb 27, 2007, 6:52 AM
Post #73 of 136 (2208 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
but this part, aside from the [1st line], leaves the senior rigger out.
Quote:
A) assemble: Yes, a senior rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITH an RSL

Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITH an RSL

Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITHOUT an RSL

Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITHOUT an RSL as long as the removal of the components is noted on the packing data card by a MASTER RIGGER.

Choose which part to read and go with it.

It seems to me that word Master I put in bold in the Sunpath email should read Senior. Otherwise that text line just restates the line above it, making no sense. If indeed that word was supposed to be Senior it was it was a bad misstatement by the Sunpath author. Just from reading the rest of the email it seems like that is what he is trying to say.

Seth


HSPScott  (D 22285)

Feb 27, 2007, 7:26 AM
Post #74 of 136 (2199 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I recently received my Odyssey back from Sunpath from have the #3 reserve flap replaced. Directly below this flap are where the RSL guide rings are located. They were previously removed from my container after I was told by Sunpath that was ok to do so.

From the homepage Sunpath.com : There is a$15.00 inspection fee on ALL equipment sent in for repairs. No repairs will be processed without a completed repair sheet.

If the RSL was mandatory, why wasnít I notified that the rings would have to be put back on the rig?

Why would Sunpath do a repair on a container and send it back un-airworthy?


hookitt  (D License)

Feb 27, 2007, 9:16 AM
Post #75 of 136 (2169 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hook,
Please don't take my post as a "your wrong".

Then post it as "You're wrong" and it's settled. I was just stirring the pot a little anyway. Wink

It appeared to be a typo, but how can one be sure given the ambiguous nature of previous writings Sun Path has bestowed upon the masses. Removing an RSL from a Javelin has occured for the life of the company. in 2007 a very lame ruling that is/was open for interpretation has being implimented.

Rigging is not rocket science. Preparing a closed ruling is pretty easy as well. Regardless, the new ruling is dumb.

From now on, any senior rigger is going to have to find a Master Rigger to sign off on the removal of an "Optional" item that does not change the function of the reserve system.

That's all I have time for with no time to proof read... Good day.


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