Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not?

 

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councilman24  (D 8631)

Feb 20, 2007, 7:02 PM
Post #26 of 136 (2417 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Mark Schlatter (sp? I never remember how) was the one that had personnal knowledge of this incident. I don't have a contact for him.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Feb 20, 2007, 7:02 PM
Post #27 of 136 (2417 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

So it really doesn't matter what Sunpath means if that is how the FAA is gonna interpret it.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 7:04 PM
Post #28 of 136 (2416 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
They also said that it was tested with the rsl and that is how it SHOULD remain.

Very wishy washy if you ask me.

Should is not the same as must, so it is only wishy washy in that they want it to happen without it being required, however, there is the reported case of a rigger being reprimanded by the FAA...

Yeah, that is the part I have a rub with and would still like somemore details (evidence) on.

If Sunpath is going to be wishy washy about what they say about RSLs on their rigs in writting, but their representatives verbally state more positively that the RSL must stay on, hooked up or not, to the FAA that the FAA is taking action based on this / the mfgr's intent vs. a rigger that packed a Jav sans RSL; bad on Sunpath for hanging someone out like that.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 7:09 PM
Post #29 of 136 (2411 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Mark Schlatter (sp? I never remember how) was the one that had personnal knowledge of this incident. I don't have a contact for him.

Terry, thanks. I wish someone could come up with some written documentation on this incident. I'd love to write Sunpath about it.


Basically, IMO, this all boils down to if you own a Jav or Odyssey, you'd best leave the RSL lanyard on, even if you never hook it up. Bummer for the folks out there that have had it removed and now take it to a rigger that doesn't want to put his or her name on the card.

To a certain extent, I think Sunpath has brought this on themselves by writting down one thing and saying another.


(This post was edited by ZigZagMarquis on Feb 20, 2007, 7:11 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 7:13 PM
Post #30 of 136 (2401 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So it really doesn't matter what Sunpath means if that is how the FAA is gonna interpret it.

Unfortunately, that is how many riggers will see it.

Sunpath should know darn well the meaning of the words they use in their publications. To go to the trouble of writing a special letter concerning the issue, and then to contradict that at PIA, is really bad form, in my opinion.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 7:18 PM
Post #31 of 136 (2391 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

1) When it gets to the point where the FAA has to "interpret" things... we're screwed.

2) The "fix" to this is for Sunpath to more clearly and positively state things with regards to RSLs on their gear AND when updating their owners manuals clearly and specifically state that this "such and such" revision supercedes pervious versions... why... refer back to #1.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Feb 20, 2007, 7:21 PM
Post #32 of 136 (2385 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I doubt there is any documentation available. They may have put the reprimand in writing but I'd doubt that it's publicly available unless we can find out who it was and he/she shares it. It may have been verbal, I don't remember if Mark said. And I expect is was one field inspector. Your mileage may vary with your local inspector.


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 20, 2007, 8:51 PM
Post #33 of 136 (2369 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I jump camera 95% of the time and when I got my new Jav in 98 the RSL was the first thing that was removed, I don't want it or need it, I don't lone my gear, I don't plan on reinstalling it period. But I guess every rigger out there will have to keep an eye out for rigs with them removed and get them replaced.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Feb 20, 2007, 9:11 PM)


Samurai136  (D 26609)

Feb 21, 2007, 1:48 AM
Post #34 of 136 (2340 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
PZone... thanks for posting that.

I agree with you that Sunpath's statement... "permanent removal of this part is
highly discouraged and NOT recommended."... coming from the mfgr should carry a lot of weight, but it doesn't specifically state that permanent removal of the RSL from a Jav or Odyessy is something illegal that voids the TSO, SHALL NOT be done, etc.

My suspision is that if one were to talk to someone from Sunpath, that's what they would say, but they don't want to write it down.

Also, another good point is if they're DO update their manuals, what they should also do is clearly state which previous manuals and rigs (by DOM and s/n) the update supercedes... but they probably won't do that. Mad


The parts list in the Sunpath manual makes no mention of an RSL.Smile

The RSL assembly instructions/ user orientation are supplemental. If you follow the packing instructions the rig will be sealed, dated, tools counted and put away before you find the first page that mentions the RSL. Wink

I hope Sunpath updates their manual with precise specific language on this topic.


Slyde  (D 7365)

Feb 21, 2007, 4:02 AM
Post #35 of 136 (2319 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Investigating the John Appleton fatality, Dallas FSDO inspector Gene Bland (a Master Rigger with 8000 jumps) questioned whether the rigger could legally have removed Appleton's RSL as he had done.
In an unsigned letter on Sunpath letterhead, Sunpath said they DO NOT recommend that the RSL be removed.
Bland (now retired) sent the letter to me and I circulated it to local riggers around Skydive Dallas.
I believe the rigger was NOT violated, only advised by FAA.

Mark Schlatter (DPRE)
mschlatter@msn.com

You nailed the spelling Terry.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 21, 2007, 5:39 AM
Post #36 of 136 (2301 views)
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Re: [Slyde] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Investigating the John Appleton fatality, Dallas FSDO inspector Gene Bland (a Master Rigger with 8000 jumps) questioned whether the rigger could legally have removed Appleton's RSL as he had done.
In an unsigned letter on Sunpath letterhead, Sunpath said they DO NOT recommend that the RSL be removed.
Bland (now retired) sent the letter to me and I circulated it to local riggers around Skydive Dallas.
I believe the rigger was NOT violated, only advised by FAA.

Mark Schlatter (DPRE)
mschlatter@msn.com

You nailed the spelling Terry.

So, there is nothing to get worked up about. We know Sunpath's postion, and have confirmed that all the FAA did was circulate their request, nothing more.


Slyde  (D 7365)

Feb 21, 2007, 5:52 AM
Post #37 of 136 (2295 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Right Cliff, nothing at all to get worked up about; unless you have not yet learned to understand how the muddy water remains stirred to minimal translucence such than none can see through with certainty. It's a lot like the muggings at PIA and the way PIA chose to respond ... or not.


Slyde  (D 7365)

Feb 21, 2007, 6:02 AM
Post #38 of 136 (2290 views)
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Re: [Slyde] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Post Script: Just received an email from a jumper whose writes: "
I just got my Javelin back from SunPath Yesterday. They wanted to pack my reserve and would have been quite happy to without an RSL."

Clear as mud. No?


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Feb 21, 2007, 6:11 AM
Post #39 of 136 (2283 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The RSL is a specific component that is included in the *Approved Configuration* during the TSO process. That should make it pretty clear to any rigger, no?

OBE at this point in the discussion, I suppose, but this is what I was thinking of:


4.3.6.2 Breakaway Drop Tests:

Eight drops shall be made by a person weighing not more than the maximum
operating weight by breaking away from an open and normally functioning main
parachute canopy with a vertical velocity of less than 20 FPS (6.1 m/s) at the time
of breakaway and actuating the reserve pack within 2 s of the breakaway. If a
reserve static line is part of the assembly, no less than 4 of the breakaway
drops shall be made with the reserve static line actuating the reserve pack.
The parachute canopy must be functionally open within the time +2 s, or
altitude, obtained in 4.3.6 from the time of breakaway.



i.e. ... during the TSO tests, if an RSL is part of the assembly, it has to be used to activate teh reserve for SOME OF, but not ALL OF the drop tests.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 21, 2007, 7:24 AM
Post #40 of 136 (2262 views)
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Re: [Slyde] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

...minimal translucence...Laugh

What muggings? I must have missed that thread.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Feb 21, 2007, 8:32 AM
Post #41 of 136 (2263 views)
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Re: [Slyde] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Post Script: Just received an email from a jumper whose writes: "
I just got my Javelin back from SunPath Yesterday. They wanted to pack my reserve and would have been quite happy to without an RSL."

Clear as mud. No?

To be clear as to what your jumper wrote... was his rig originally made with an RSL? (not all were, and that might have lead to what on the surface seems to be an inconsistancy.)

JW


Slyde  (D 7365)

Feb 21, 2007, 11:53 AM
Post #42 of 136 (2219 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes. He went on to say his rig has velcro applied to cover the velcro on his reserve risers.


AirDive  (D License)

Feb 21, 2007, 12:56 PM
Post #43 of 136 (2196 views)
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Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems that as long as it does not require stitching to restore the RSL it's not permanently removed. Since an RSL alone can be fatal in some situations it would be a mistake to require it, that might be why they don't.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Feb 21, 2007, 1:18 PM
Post #44 of 136 (2186 views)
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Re: [AirDive] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since an RSL alone can be fatal in some situations it would be a mistake to require it, that might be why they don't.

AirDive... sorry, I'm going to call you on this one... What are these situations, specifically, are these where an RSL can be fatal?


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Feb 21, 2007, 2:38 PM
Post #45 of 136 (2159 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
AirDive... sorry, I'm going to call you on this one... What are these situations, specifically, are these where an RSL can be fatal?

I can think of at least 5 where the jumper would have probably lived if they did not have an RSL. Tandem breaking a riser and the RSL firing the reserve into the main. A SEAL having the reserve deployed into their main when they deployed.

The rapid deployment of the reserve via the RSL resulted in his capturing the reserve pilot chute on his right arm. One report indicates the reserve lines also entangled with his neck. The reserve never cleared the freebag.

Description: The Navy was at Elsinore training Seals; they had their own instructors and their own equipment. At the time of this report, no detailed analysis of the rig has yet been made. This report is based on preliminary examinations and eyewitness accounts. The student ( training under the Navy's equivalent of AFF) deployed his main normally at around 4500 feet. During the main deployment the RSL somehow deployed his reserve which then entangled in the main. Someone supposedly had seen that his main was square and apparently flyable while the reserve was completely fouled and entangled in his main lines. No one directly witnessed the incident while the student was between 4000 and 2500 feet. Somewhere during that interval the student apparently cutaway his main which then collapsed and remained entangled with his fouled reserve. It was believed that if he had not cutaway, he may have been able to land relatively safely on his main. The reserve was apparently NOT deployed by his CYPRES: the preliminary examination revealed a kink in the reserve ripcord where the RSL must have pulled against it while it was still under tension from the closing loop. As soon as the rig is released by the coroner more detailed examinations are going to happen by the DZO, the USPA, the rig manufacturer and the Navy. It is unknown at this time what pulled the RSL, it may have been improperly routed and was pulled on line stretch, or it may have been caught by a toggle. It is also unknown if this type of malfunction is particular to this type of rig or is an industry-wide concern. The Navy has stood down their training and grounded all of their equipment until more is known about the true cause of the incident"

"Description: After a four way jump, the deceased suffered a violently spinning malfunction on his Startrac 2 main canopy, which he cutaway from at a low altitude. While unstable, at about 800-900 ft, he deployed his reserve. It (a Swift) opened into into serious line twists, potentially due to his unstable attitude during reserve deployment. He landed extremely hard under a partially-inflated reserve. The reserve was found to still have about 5 line twists. Reportedly, the risers were tangled around his throat, perhaps strangling him during decent. He weighed about 215 lbs and was jumping a Racer with a Pull-out main deployment system. He had been involved in the sport for 35 years."

Search the incident databases, RSL's have killed people.

Kind of a pet peeve of mine when people think that RSL's have never killed anyone. The information is out there.

Also, do a search for: "Facts about the "Reserve Staticline Lanyard"

Derek


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 21, 2007, 2:46 PM
Post #46 of 136 (2152 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have yet to meet a camera flyer that jumps with an active RSL, while there maybe some out there who do, I don't know of any and I think most would say not a good idea to do so.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Feb 21, 2007, 2:56 PM
Post #47 of 136 (2149 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I've heard that dogma before... but I also know a... dead... camera man that would probalby be alive it he had an RSL or AAD... cut-away a mal and spent the rest of his life trying to locate and pull his reserve handle with blood curdling screams just before impact.

Anyway... HNS posted some good info too.... to which... MY pet peave is folks to bang RSLs or AADs or this or that in the sport because of "hearsay" or bcause of what the "cool guys do or say" and not because of a decission based on real info... at least HNS makes his decission / opion based on real info, can't argue with that.


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 21, 2007, 5:59 PM
Post #48 of 136 (2114 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
MY pet peave is folks to bang RSLs or AADs or this or that in the sport because of "hearsay" or bcause of what the "cool guys do or say" and not because of a decission based on real info

Well I can't speak for every other camera flyer out there, but I made the decission based upon the size of some of the crap placed on top on my helmet and the very real possiblity that due to the sizes involved a wrap/snag could happen very easy, even in a cutaway, say with line twist that travel to the risers and twist them up. If you have ever had that happen to you with a large camera set up to the point where your head is pinned downward and you can't look up to see WTF is going on then you would understand. My decission to remove my RSL had nothing to do with "hearsay" or because the "cool guys" do it. It come down to common sense, if I have to cutaway and get wraped/snag I want the chance to use the helmet cutaway (if your neck isn't snapped) to remove it before my reserve gets dumped into a ball of shit over my head. The bottom line is, it is up to each jumper to assess the risk level and make choices that best fit their level of risk for the type of skydive they do. I decided over 11 years ago an RSL added more risk to me as a camera flyer, that is my personal choice and if you feel more comfort jumping an RSL for your the type of skydiving you do, that is your choice.

No where in any of my posts have I ever said jumping with and AAD or RSL is a bad idea, for most jumpers. I do however feel mandatory AAD's is stupid and no one should be forced to jump one, that should remain a personal choice.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Feb 21, 2007, 6:01 PM)


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)
Moderator
Feb 21, 2007, 6:24 PM
Post #49 of 136 (2104 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is already spinning off into a "to RSL or not to RSL" conversation, which is important but has been discussed at length in several other threads. This thread is about removal of the RSL being legal or not.

Please keep this thread on track - feel free to resurrect one of the other RSL debate threads to continue that particular conversation.

Thanks,


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Feb 21, 2007, 7:49 PM
Post #50 of 136 (2080 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

SLP... true enough.

Frankly... my "take-away" from this reserected argument over the permanent removal of an RSL from a Jav is my advice to folks that want a Jav, but don't want an RSL is to just leave the thing on and not hook it up... ya never know, you might change your mind. Smile


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