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how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock?

 

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weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 26, 2009, 8:01 AM
Post #51 of 88 (2866 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

I have also succesfully yanked a baglock clear by pulling on risers on my personal gear.

After watching the video, I did reach up to grab the risers, but made a quick decision to not lose precious altitude trying to clear the mal with a Tandem Passenger on front. This was a quick decision made due to my spot, because I had a video guy still in freefall (he still landed out), and I wanted max time to deal with the reserve due it being a Tandem.

In retrospect, I think I made the right decision because pulling on the risers would not have met any resistance due to the collapsed drogue - unlike a sport rig which has an inflated pilot chute to pull against.

On another note, I have seen the UPT mod for extending drogue kill lines to help prevent this. The file is a 3MB .pdf so not postable, but I have not yet found on the UPT website. While they recommend only mod'ing canopies with long trap doors, our owner is going to mod all of our SIGMAs to prevent this near fatal mal happening again (the alternative is potentially harder openings).

I can email the file if wanted.

Mark


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 26, 2009, 1:38 PM
Post #52 of 88 (2817 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is. The better question to ask is - with the normal drag of a collapsed drogue, and the risers DO release during a bag lock - after the riser activates the RSL, is there data that the bag and drogue will clear the opening reserve and not fall into it? I believe the answer is yes.I would like to have input from UPT. There is a good deal of drag from the collapsed drogue to clear the baglock as you fall away( watch how much time it takes the Drogue/baglock to hit the ground). If you do a test and pull the risers on the ground you get plenty of extension to activate the RSL.

The guy in the picture screwed up. If you do the procedure correctly, you can't be holding the cutaway handle and the reserve handle at the same time


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 26, 2009, 3:19 PM
Post #53 of 88 (2792 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
After watching the video, I did reach up to grab the risers, but made a quick decision to not lose precious altitude trying to clear the mal with a Tandem Passenger on front. This was a quick decision made due to my spot, because I had a video guy still in freefall (he still landed out), and I wanted max time to deal with the reserve due it being a Tandem.

I'm not second guessing you, you're walking and talking, so job well done.Smile

Quote:
In retrospect, I think I made the right decision because pulling on the risers would not have met any resistance due to the collapsed drogue - unlike a sport rig which has an inflated pilot chute to pull against.

In fact a collapsed Sigma drogue has more drag than a standard skydiving pilot chute.

Quote:
On another note, I have seen the UPT mod for extending drogue kill lines to help prevent this. The file is a 3MB .pdf so not postable, but I have not yet found on the UPT website. While they recommend only mod'ing canopies with long trap doors, our owner is going to mod all of our SIGMAs to prevent this near fatal mal happening again (the alternative is potentially harder openings).

Trapdoor has nothing to do with the canopy and everything to do with the drogue.


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 26, 2009, 3:58 PM
Post #54 of 88 (2782 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Utah,
Can you please elaborate on how the guy in the picture (me) screwed up? I recognized a high speed malfunction, pulled the cutaway handle and then the reserve handle in accordance with the UPT manual (I believe chapter 4).

Also, the point of me posting this is to let TMs know that sometimes the collapsed drouge does NOT have enough drag to lift the risers off the 3-ring which requires manually clearing the risers (which is not covered in the manual)

I'm also willing to learn so I look forward to any constructive input.


lowpull  (D 18385)

Mar 26, 2009, 7:47 PM
Post #55 of 88 (2745 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

"The guy in the picture screwed up. If you do the procedure correctly, you can't be holding the cutaway handle and the reserve handle at the same time "


What???

Please Explain


camamel  (D 333)

Mar 27, 2009, 10:11 AM
Post #56 of 88 (2695 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

My understanding is yes you can if the pictures was taken after the second handles was released.

Richard


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Mar 27, 2009, 1:06 PM
Post #57 of 88 (2672 views)
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Re: [meakins] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I got an email stating that UPT has issued a fix for drogues that collapse too fast and have a trap door too long. The fix adds one main slink to the drogue kill line.

At some point a few years ago RWS/UPT changed their drogues. I ordered a couple, and the comparatively long trap door was scaring me! I checked back with RWS (it was before the name change), and they advised of the a fore mentioned modification to extend the kill line. I've done it to every drogue I've purchased from UPT since! Reasoning for the change? Something to do with performance at sea level or some crap. I suppose Bill Booth might be able to explane.

Martin

Maritn


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Mar 29, 2009, 12:36 PM
Post #58 of 88 (2578 views)
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a similar experience with an original Vector Tandem system in about 1992-1993 in Canada.

Bag lock malfunction, pulled the cutaway. The RSL side released and the reserve went immediately into it. The other riser eventually released, but I watched the reserve (swimming in lines and crap), eventually open, with an enormous knot of lines, risers and such on the right side just above my head.

Hook-knife my ass, I needed a chainsaw. The knot of those old Dacron lines was the size of a football. The right toggle was stuck as it slid through all that and the reserve was spinning hard to the right.

I had the student hold the left toggle down to stop the spin, worked enough of the knot loose so that I could steer a bit with the right toggle. But it was so sticky, I just chose to do left turns for the entire pattern. All this time the main started to come out of the bag, creating more and more drag behind the right side.

In the end, a stand up landing in the peas, with the now-deploying main parachute trailing behind me.

In my entire skydiving career, the only time I eve thought I was going in was when I looked up and saw the reserve deploying into al that shit over my head......

Clearing the risers when you have a bag-lock does not matter a shit if the RSL side releases - the bottom line is that the collapsing drogue does not offer enough drag to pull the 3-rings free.

TK Hayes


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 29, 2009, 3:52 PM
Post #59 of 88 (2551 views)
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Re: [lowpull] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is going to be long, but I'm copying the dialog between me and the TM. We also had a great conversation on the phone... Please call, I love talkin' about this stuff...

Steve -
I'm interested in you expanding your comment about the SIGMA Malfunction. You mentioned that I screwed up by having both handles and i'm not sure what you meant (as well other people).

Please update your response so I can learn.

Sorry if I sounded abrasive, I tend to do that to get someones attention especially during an evaluation. Being allowed to operate a tandem rig means you are in a professional capacity with another person relying on your skill to keep them as safe as possible. When I do a UPT Tandem eval. course, one of the first things the candidate hears is the absolute need to RESPOND intelligently to a situation, not REACT. There is a huge difference. To work our gear safely, we must use correct sequencing. To do that, we must begin the action(say cutting away), observe the RESULTS of the action, and then RESPOND accordingly. In your case, the fact that the risers had not cleared but the reserve handle had been pulled meant you did not observe the result of the act of cutting away to insure clean air for the reserve. You reacted instead of responded, which is why your hands are full of handles with the risers still attached. It also may have been an over sight in your training.

Please let me pose you a question and a phone call would be great... I have 13 tandem chops in 22 years. 2 high speed, the rest low. All on Vector 2 or Sigmas(all with RSL's, with and without skyhook). On all 13 I've had my hand on the reserve handle during the cutaway but have never pulled it,and I mean never. Why didn't I pull the reserve handle? 914-588-0190

Utah

Steve -
thanks for the clarification, that actually helps explain your comment. Like I said, i'm here to learn, and I think that putting the gist of this PM on the thread is good learning (the respond vs react).

I've tried to be open and honest in this thread because my point was explain to other TMs that there is a possibility of risers not releasing. For better or worse - in my 15 years of jumping - that scenerio has never happened or been discussed. Therefore, I reacted as I had been trained and never even considered that the risers wouldn't release.

My hope is that my pictures will gain attention, and other experts can help teach other TMs how to better handle emergencies so we avoid fatalities...in your case, the respond vs react is a great addition.

Finally - to answer your question, your RSL has worked on your chops. Yesterday, all of our instructors were discussing this and came to the same conclusion - get away from what i was taught and been teaching for 14 years during FJCs (i.e. RSL is a backup - don't rely on it - always pull reserve), and move towards a version of what you say - CHOP - Look (if all is well RSL will pull reserve) - and if necessary - clear problems and pull reserve.

I'm about to head out to the DZ, we have our first busy day of the season so i'll be busy. I may try to call you in about 45 minutes if that's okay (its a short drive to the DZ). My number is (512)964-0408 and email is weavermc@hotmail.com.

Again - thanks for the clarification, and I hope you put a version of this on the thread to help teach others. I'm just glad my fate wasn't the same as the Guam fatality.


Absolutely. Reading between the lines in the 'finally" paragraph, you can see the oversight that is rife in the industry... We are taught and then teach single harness dual parachute thinking. which is basically 'dump' then 'holy shit!' then 'ka-ching, ka-ching, hope this works' then 'ha ha, f'you reaper'. Respond vs. React is easy to say but real hard to do in our environment and double hard in tandem.

A tandem rig has 6 sequences that are used vs. 3 on sport rigs (without RSL's) 1)drogue deployment, 2-3) primary/secondary pilot chute (drogue) release handles, 4)cutaway, 5)primary reserve deployment device(RSL) 6)secondary reserve deployment device(red handle). That is the correct method of thinking with this gear. It is a complex piece of equipment.

Some folks look at me like I'm crazy never to have pulled the reserve handle; not realizing that I didn't need it. I've heard stuff like "just making sure" "makes me feel good" "it's the right thing to do", etc. The "just making sure" is the most egregious because they are saying that they don't know what the gear is doing. and are operating in the 'boogey-man vs.reality'; 'hope vs. know' world.

We all get the 'holy shit' kick when something happens like a mal, but the true pro then goes 'OK, got that in check, let's go to work gettin' this right' which is 'action, check results, respond accordingly'. That type of thinking is the difference between a skydiver with a tandem rating and a Tandem MASTER.


Utah


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 29, 2009, 4:06 PM
Post #60 of 88 (2550 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yo TK, can't wait to see ya again, my friend. 80's, early 90's when tandem was 'oh yeah!... I was considering what would happen on the same jump today with a Collins/RSL/RDS. A whole lot different, I bet... Deb sends her love and you don't wanna know what I'm thinkin' 'bout you, you 'hunka, hunka'...


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 29, 2009, 4:36 PM
Post #61 of 88 (2544 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the post Steve!

I try to teach more advanced skydivers the necessity of taking that "step" in the EP of making sure things are going the way they should and RESPOND to the situation accurately. With an FJC student we have the challenge of making sure there isn't an unintended "dear in the headlights" freeze, but since we should be ever learning in this sport, there is room for additional training along the way.

Oh, and I just had lunch, so if you an TK could flirt elsewhere......tell Deb she's still to good for ya. Tongue


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 29, 2009, 6:33 PM
Post #62 of 88 (2523 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm, fliritng, hmmm, OK, 'nuff said(only you know how it could be...). The Idea of getting people to understand that 'Sully's' are created(a combo of self and institutional training) and should be what we aspire to and Examiners should direct toward. Tandem should be 'no room for yahoos, this is serious shit with the innocent public, yo'...


Mixoligist  (D 26787)

Mar 29, 2009, 7:08 PM
Post #63 of 88 (2518 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is the first good thread with valuable information and opinions in a long time.
Utah and T.K. clearly know what's what.
Good food for thought.

Thanks


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 30, 2009, 3:01 PM
Post #64 of 88 (2421 views)
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Re: [Mixoligist] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a cheat cheat I've been handing out for years to my candidates and any TM who wants it. I suggest briefing with something like this everyday of operation.

SIGMA AND TV2 TANDEM PROCEDURES

AIRCRAFT EMERGENCY ALTITUDE MINIMUMS:
1. 0’ to 1500’ Ride the aircraft down. Student should be unhooked and belted in.
2. 1500’ to 4500’ Reserve only.
3. 4500’ to altitude Standard main deployment.

MALFUNCTION DECISION ALTITUDE:
3000’ is the decision altitude minimum (hard deck) for cutting away from a malfunctioning main canopy. This is the minimum you need to stay out of trouble with the AAD. (Imagine the AAD firing the reserve into a high speed streamer!)

EMERGENCY PROCEDURES IN FREEFALL:

1. No Drogue (stuck in pouch)

2. Trapped Drogue (against the body)

3. Entangled Drogue (wrapped around something)
All of these problems are to be considered as TOTAL MALFUNCTIONS.
The correct procedure is the same as in solo jumping: Try to clear
2-3 times, then go immediately to the reserve only.

A DROGUE IS NOT A PILOT CHUTE!!!

Everything else, from a pilot chute in tow (which is very different from an entangled drogue), to a low or high-speed malfunction, will be handled in the proper sequence only.
An entangled or trapped drogue must be discovered before any handles are pulled! If you make the mistake of assuming that your drogue is deployed properly (no visual check and no foot check on the back of the container), you may use the wrong procedure and potentially murder your student and kill yourself. (especially on a V-2)

A deployed drogue becomes a pilot chute-in-tow only when both the main and the secondary pilot chute release handles have been pulled with no results or, the handle(s) won’t come out for some reason. Arguments go either way on whether you should cutaway or not.
An out of sequence deployment, responded to improperly, is responsible for the most tandem fatalities. The Tandem Master must re-sequence the deployment.

If for any reason the main container comes open in freefall you must:

1. Deploy the drogue (if not deployed) and turn it into a pilot chute with the pilot chute(drogue) release handles and observe the results.

2. Cut away the malfunction and observe the results.

3. Pull the reserve

Obviously, if you react without thinking, instead of thinking and responding, and cut away and pull the reserve, or just pull the reserve, the chance of a main-reserve entanglement is well documented.

A deployed drogue is not a pilot chute until the pilot chute(drogue) release handle(s) have been pulled.

DO NOT REACT DURING AN EMERGENCY OR ANY OTHER TIME!

RESPOND

There’s a big difference. Take that deep breath to pull it all together, or spend the rest of your short life wishing you had.

GEAR AND HANDLE CHECKS:
DO THEM!
(On the ground, in the plane, in the air, the same way, and every time)
Not doing these checks is just F*****G STUPID. And F*****G STUPID people should stay on the STUPID F*****G ground. This goes for all other checks, too. Don’t let someone else screw up because you weren’t keeping an eye out for other jumpers’ gear mistakes.

SIDE SPINS and OUT-OF CONTROL TUMBLING

You must remember not to let the dynamic that creates the spin or tumble to continue. You must break the problem created by the TM and Passenger body position, then present to the relative wind. The following procedure will ALWAYS work. It is just simple physics…

Forcefully pulling down the students arms as far as possible with your own and holding them, keeping your legs as wide as possible (do not waste time trying to get the passengers legs with your legs) will eventually stop any spinning or tumbling and turn it into a head down barrel roll. You then recover to your belly with an explosive, hard arch by the TM, then immediate drogue throw.

REMEMBER: FLY FIRST, THEN PLACE THE DROGUE, CHECK IT’S PLACEMENT, DO ALL HANDLE CHECKS, THEN HAVE FUN!

Please contact me at anytime regarding harnessing, deployment body positioning, containment and/or landing procedures concerning ‘outside the ordinary’ passengers, etc.

Thanks,

Steve ‘Utah’ Webb
914.588.0190
steve@utahsteve.com


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 30, 2009, 3:38 PM
Post #65 of 88 (2414 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a little more(yeah, right)

Concerning UPT bag- lock procedures. If you have cutaway with no riser release. first of all, correct eye positioning prior to the chop is two-fold; check to see if the RSL is connected, then look at the left riser for release during the chop. There is the possibility that after the chop, the right riser releases to pull the reserve pin and the left riser stays put. I would think you would want to know that to grab and manually release it. If you have both risers attached after the chop, if you grab and manually remove the risers you should take at least the right riser and pull it to full arm extension to activate the reserve(you might also want to let it go after that, duh).

Another scenario...Whens the last time y'all considered the correct procedure for a skydiver entangled in your drogue? How's this sound? Say it looks like he's tied up real good. There is no potential for a drogue release. This is a reserve only situation. You must immediately upon determining that he is not going to untangle, disconnect the RSL and cutaway. This move sets you and your passenger up for future clean air. Next, try to cut the drogue bridle with the hook knife to free you from the entangled skydiver. Why? Because I bet he would much rather just have to deal with a bridle and drogue vs. drogue, bridle, d-bag, main, suspension lines, risers, I mean cut the guy some slack (bad pun) IF YOU'VE GOT THE TIME. Then move to clean air and deploy the reserve only.
The alternative is if you can't for some reason cut the drogue bridle, you have to dump your main into the poor guy, fall away, move to clean air and deploy the reserve(don't look back).
Now let's say that just after you chop and disconnect the RSL the SOB manages to clear himself and your back to drogue fall. I personally am going to deploy the main, fall away, get clean air and deploy the reserve. I would just as soon not deploy into a drogue if I don't have to(although it appears to relatively safe to do so).

I think that covers it for now.... thanks


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 31, 2009, 10:37 AM
Post #66 of 88 (2342 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just brought to my attention. In the last 2 sentences it should read 'and you are (not your) back to ' and
'(although it appears to be relatively safe to do so).


hairymango

Apr 5, 2009, 1:27 AM
Post #67 of 88 (2102 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Great posts - good food for thought on skydiver tangled with your drouge/bridle!

Maybe adding in the EP for main container opening, and also not being able to depoy drouge would be a good addition to your cheat sheet.


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Apr 5, 2009, 7:10 AM
Post #68 of 88 (2090 views)
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Re: [hairymango] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the input, I was beginning to think I frightened everyone away! I agree about the cheat sheet. I use it as a catalyst to jump start/set the verbal training side of the eval. process with the goal of getting everyone on the same page before we get into the air(the whole primacy/recency thing). I feel that is the best time to cement the respond vs. react paradigm. I should get off my ass and flesh it out a bit. I felt it was pretty pretentious putting all that out on the thread and hope it wasn't too much(I just couldn't help myself!).

Thanks,


Mixoligist  (D 26787)

Apr 5, 2009, 12:00 PM
Post #69 of 88 (2068 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

shut up steve, you talk too muchTongue


mnskydiver688  (D 30125)

Apr 5, 2009, 12:02 PM
Post #70 of 88 (2064 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it bad that I am reconsidering becoming a tandem master after reading this thread? Thanks for the read. First thread in a long time I have come away thinking, a lot.


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Apr 5, 2009, 6:16 PM
Post #71 of 88 (2028 views)
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Re: [Mixoligist] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I know, but considering the...


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Apr 5, 2009, 6:32 PM
Post #72 of 88 (2023 views)
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Re: [mnskydiver688] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tandem is not for everyone, which is hard to swallow for some considering the earning potential. It is easy to say that the first thought should not be about the money, but come on... All I can say at my experience level is that I am convinced there is no 'boogey man' and that if you are attracted to a certain discipline, pursue it until it doesn't make sense and then suck it up and move on. The idea is not to allow yourself to get into something that is over your head, but at the same time don't avoid it until you can make an informed decision. Tandem is intense not because of the complexity of the gear but the fact that you are dealing with the general public, start to finish, completely relying on your skill. It is a different 'ballgame'


Mixoligist  (D 26787)

Apr 6, 2009, 5:51 AM
Post #73 of 88 (1974 views)
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Re: [mnskydiver688] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is it bad that I am reconsidering becoming a tandem master.

No it is good, at least you are thinking.


Personally I think there are many "tandem masters" who should reconsider what they are doing and/or hang it up.
There are very few reasons why a man or woman can't be a tandem instructor.......There are a ton of reasons why they shouldn't.

In skydiving we are ALL capable of anything....that is why we must ALL choose wisely.

I'm an asshole though so don't just listen to me.Wink


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Apr 6, 2009, 6:04 AM
Post #74 of 88 (1970 views)
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Re: [Mixoligist] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah, Yoda Bob... Love your last sentence, I thought I was the only one...Laugh


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Apr 10, 2009, 9:22 AM
Post #75 of 88 (1832 views)
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

TI / Skydivers - please think why all these "Bag Locks" were created ?

Before we move on with what the TI should do - think WHY ???

Most of any Skydiving system issues can be eliminated on the ground.

Any comments please.

Be Safe !!!


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