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how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock?

 

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fincher  (E License)

Mar 16, 2009, 7:52 PM
Post #26 of 88 (4309 views)
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Re: [weavermc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

ok, I'm going to chime in here with my experience with this. I feel this is a worth while thread. I had a baglock on a IAF jump with the student pulling. I will no longer give the student much leeway for pulling. I will be dumping it at 5.5 myself. He is not getting till 5 to pull and there is no way im going to 4500 myself.
here is what happened. The student fumbled around and pulled. I felt the trap door 2-3 seconds nothing. I initiate ep's. cutaway then reach reserve. As i reach for reserve i can see out of corner of eye that left side riser is clear. I never checked the right. I was only focused on getting the reserve out. By this time we were above 160mph according to my alti. I pull reserve. It opens in typical rock and roll style. About that time I feel something bounce off my foot. I look down to see that lines from the still connected right riser have wrapped on my foot. with main trailing still in the bag. Right side then disconnects but does not free my foot. Now the main begins partially snaking out of one corner of a partially open D-bag. The pressure on my leg and hip was torture. I was becoming a human wishbone. A hook knife was useless. I would have needed a 3 foot long handle to reach those lines on my foot. I tried to pull hard against it to slip my shoe hoping that the lines would slip off with it. But the shoe was cinched down tight. I landed uneventful and very softly with a nice head wind. But if that main would have inflated it would be game over. However if the main did inflate it probably would have pulled my shoe off and freed me of the lines. By the time I landed I had almost slipped free. None the less I dont care to ever try it again to find out.

Bottom line. PULL HIGH! and CLEAR BOTH RISERS. if you are low then CLEAR BOTH RISERS. Dont be afraid of a cypres fire. Rather have a clear reserve by cypres than a entangled conglomerate of death by a manual reserve deployment.

I took for granted that the right side cleared. learn from my mistake. I was purely focused on getting a canopy out, which is a normal reaction and probably the most natural one. SO really visualize this scenario and train yourself mentally for it.


meakins  (D 5870)

Mar 18, 2009, 9:14 AM
Post #27 of 88 (4202 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

weavermc had a stand up landing in the DZ after having a near death experience last weekend. Having seen some of the photos to which weavermc refers, I can provide some input.

In one photo you see an unsmiling weavermc looking over his shoulder.

In another photo you see the bag lock. Zooming in to the bag shows a lot of pull on one of the locking rubberbands stretched out 8 - 10 inches. Sure I can't measure the force, but it is clear it's not just floating there. It's being pulled.

In another photo the reserve bag is next to the main bag. Reserve lines are all over the place. The reserve pilot chute is fully inflated. The reserve is coming out of the bag. Indication here is that both bags are entangled. In the same photo you can see that the instructor has pulled both handles and the main is still in tow only by the risers.

In another photo you see the reserve inflated and surging from the opening. The main appears to be still attached by the risers to the three rings. At the same moment the reserve bag is wrapped around an 'A' line and the drogue's entangled with reserve bridle just below the reserve pilot chute.

The still photos I examined do not show the sequence in which the handles were pulled. Need to rely on the instructor and watch the video for that information. But the photos do verify that the main did not release when the cutaway handle was pulled.

If I find out more factual information, I will post it here.

Mike
D-5870

Now some editorial comment...

No one wants to think there might be a problem with the gear. It's calming to think the instructor did something wrong, especially if you're jumping similar equipment. Oh, ya... It's all the packers fault, anyway.

Someone will ask me to post these photos. Don't bother. Still photos provide frozen moments during a period of time and can easily be doctored up. I know the photos, as I received them, are not changed in anyway.

Why did someone give them to me? I've been in the sport 36.5 years, am a tandem examiner with 6,000 tandem jumps (yes, I still jump) and understand the importance of learning from the experience of others. I want all of you to die of old age.

I've noticed over the years how intently we all examine the situations around fatalities. Yet, we seem to gloss over incidents which resulted in a stand up landing in the DZ, when in fact someone almost died. In the latter situation, we have the added benefit of a witness, the instructor!

One note:

I don't see "RELEASE THE RSL" or "CLEAR THE RISERS" in the flow chart for -main malfunction- in any tandem system. Every time I've pulled a cutaway handle on a tandem jump you feel the the release instantly, and the RSL beats me to the reserve pull. Every time! Even when it was a bag lock.

One question:

Who thinks additional procedures should be added and the flow chart(s) be changed?


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 18, 2009, 2:35 PM
Post #28 of 88 (4161 views)
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Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Once the DZ owner has had a chance to talk to UPT, we will probably post one or two of the pics, but I'd like to expand on what Mike correctly expalined from my Mal.

"In another photo the reserve bag is next to the main bag. Reserve lines are all over the place. The reserve pilot chute is fully inflated. The reserve is coming out of the bag. Indication here is that both bags are entangled."

**My addition/clarification is based on looking at the pics over and over - I can't confirm this is the sequence 100%, but this is what the pictures seem to indicate to me (Mike - please review the pics again and comment)**

-As the Reserve Pilot Chute launched, it "snaked/wrapped" around the righthand set of lines as it launches off my back.
-Fully inflated, the reserve pilot chute continues launching, pulling the reserve freebag out of the container and dumping the lines out of the freebag - BUT, still wrapped one time around one set of lines.
-The Reserve PC continues to launch until the freebag hits the main d-bag. At this point, the reserve bridle is still wrapped around one set of lines and is holding the reserve pilot chute in place, preventing reserve line stretch. I THINK that the 'banging' of the freebag against the d-bag knocked the reserve out of the freebag, and then starts to inflate - WHILE - the main drogue, d-bag, lines and reserve pilot chute/bridle/freebag are still entangled.
NOTE: Even the drag created by the Reserve Pilot Chute (which was wrapped around the lines at the d-bag) was not enough to release the risers from the 3-ring.

(VERY) Luckily for me, the reserve was able to open, and as it fully opened, the drag on the deflated drogue/d-bag/reserve PC stopped, allowing it to fall below me. Then, the pressure/force of the falling & baglocked d-bag pulled the risers off of the 3-ring system.

Again, as I mentioned previously, the sequence of events started with a baglock, and was aggravated due to the low-drag of the collapsed drogue/d-bag failing to "pull" the cutatway risers off of the 3-ring system. This is despite the fact that there was enough pressure to open the magnetic riser covers (a related issue to this that Bill Booth discusses earlier in this thread).

It is true that picture(s) will be worth a thousand words, but until we post them, please learn from this near-fatality (like Mike mentioned) and educate TM's to check risers after chopping a baglock -
The life you save may be your own.

Thanks
Mark


skydiveoc  (D 12721)

Mar 19, 2009, 5:55 AM
Post #29 of 88 (4110 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess for the next 50 tandems or so without video, I am going to imagine myself having a baglock and "handles checking" my RSL and 3 rings on the way down. Repetition and mind awareness drills to a new reaction.


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 19, 2009, 7:22 AM
Post #30 of 88 (4091 views)
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Re: [skydiveoc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Good idea - I know for me it is going to be a big change to the last 15 years of thought-processing about high-spped malfunction emergency procedures.


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 21, 2009, 6:18 AM
Post #31 of 88 (4017 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

To further add to my posts above, pics are now posted below in an attempt to emphasize the near fatality I had on this jump.

I personally think that the Tandem Manufacturers should include this in the training and, at least in SIGMAs case, update the "Malfunction Flowchart" to add "clear risers" following cutaway from a baglock (or horseshoe).

At the very minimum, I hope TMs see this and realize to add the step of manually checking risers during high-speed, low-drag malfunctions.

Baglock 9 - Shows both handles out, Reserve PC launching and wrapping around the right side lines.

Baglock 12 - Shows the Reserve PC hindered by the bridle wrapped around lines & caught on d-bag. The freebag is banging against the d-bag (causing - i think - the reserve to be knocked out)

Baglock 13 - Shows the the same as 12 but more reserve out

Baglock 16 - Shows the reserve opening with the dbag connected by at least one riser, the drogue above the reserve, and everything inter-mingled.

Baglock 18 - Shows the d-bag still connected by at least one riser while falling away and the reserve PC/freebag still wrapped (although coming free)

Please PM me if you need better quality pics to show TMs (These are already cropped from originals but I had to resize them from 500-700KB down to 250KB to upload)
Attachments: 090314 Baglock - 09.jpg (250 KB)
  090314 Baglock - 12.jpg (251 KB)
  090314 Baglock - 13.jpg (247 KB)
  090314 Baglock - 16.jpg (214 KB)
  090314 Baglock - 18.jpg (233 KB)


scrub  (D License)

Mar 21, 2009, 9:11 PM
Post #32 of 88 (3877 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks for the info glad to see people talking an learning from that an not shine it on like i lived no big deal.. i hope we all know that was a close one.


hairymango

Mar 22, 2009, 2:27 AM
Post #33 of 88 (3832 views)
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Seen three bag locks in the last few months on Sigmas which havent cleared after TM cutaway. Both TMs had to clear risers, once they cleared, skyhook did its job and beat them to the reserve. Im told by the TM that had two of the mals that it becomes easier the second time Smile


baronn  (D 22387)

Mar 22, 2009, 8:22 AM
Post #34 of 88 (3798 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Holy Crap! That is some scary stuff! Your camera person must have thought they were witnessing a double mal. Glad you got thru that OK. The real question here is, have you figured out what caused this? The mains not releasing seems like a big problem to me. the photos clearly show the cutaway handle out. I'd really like to know what UPT and anyone else has to say about this.


(This post was edited by baronn on Mar 22, 2009, 8:37 AM)


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 22, 2009, 8:36 AM
Post #35 of 88 (3789 views)
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Re: [baronn] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Unfortunately UPT has yet to respond to the owner.

As you read through the threads, there are several theories on the cause of the baglock. However, the non-release of the risers Is caused by the collapsed drouge not having enough drag to pull the risers off (or in some cases even open the riser covers)

Hopefully word gets out to clear the risers


baronn  (D 22387)

Mar 22, 2009, 8:45 AM
Post #36 of 88 (3783 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems a bit hard to tell from the angle of the photo but, it looks like the tension from the baglock is on the left side. I'm not sure if the riser covers are released or not. Whether it's the angle of the shot or not but, that is WAY too close for comfort. It could have gone real bad. I still don't understand why the risers didn't release? Even with a collapsed drogue, it should have enough tweak to separate them. Please see about getting a definite answer here, I'm already scared enough.


koppel  (F License)

Mar 22, 2009, 3:23 PM
Post #37 of 88 (3742 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad it all worked out.

One question please, how often is 3-ring maintenance done on that rig? Is it a set number of jumps, ie every 25/50 jumps? A set time frame ie every week/fortnight etc Is there a system that tracks and ensures that in fact the schedule that is in place is followed?

Not casting doubts on your systems, just wondering what they are.


Wharewaka  (D License)

Mar 23, 2009, 2:12 AM
Post #38 of 88 (3679 views)
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Re: [baronn] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Take a person with a tandem rig, put person flat on the ground, ask him to cutaway, pull the risers up in an angle like a baglock, watch the result. Might be that it will take some force to release, have not done this test but heard of it.

I wasn't there for the making of the 3 rings but looks like they are designed for more vertical use, isn't it even important that the loop that goes through the riser is long enough that the rings get the right angle when under canopy?

In the case of a baglock the 3 rings will have to release in a different angle, 90 or so degrees different from most cutaways. That is one reason that the tm might need to help the 3 rings release. Or so I heard.

This is not new, just seems like its not been passed on to everyone.

If RSL is on right side, then clear left first. I would try to do so anyway.
it's hard to see the risers on a tandem baglock. I heard that some instructors looking at the 3 rings itself.

My last baglock I could only see that the main was not gone and tried to bang the risers. They came off, like they seem to always do, just have to stay cool.

Maybe less mid day changing of underwear if the droug had more drag after collapsing, but sometimes there is a knot on the drouge after exit or some shit like that and if you get a baglock then, you might have to help to release the risers.


meakins  (D 5870)

Mar 23, 2009, 6:42 AM
Post #39 of 88 (3652 views)
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Re: [koppel] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

"Not casting doubts on your systems..."
You're not? Sorry, that's hardly the case here.

The Sigmas at SMB are all new! The oldest right around six months in use. The newest just a couple weeks in service. Maybe a couple have been through one reserve pack cycle.

I'd like to put the question out there. Does this situation occur when there is a malfunction that doesn't have enough drag to open the riser covers?

Mike


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 23, 2009, 7:57 AM
Post #40 of 88 (3637 views)
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Re: [hairymango] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Seen three bag locks in the last few months on Sigmas
Unimpressed
That right there is an attention-grabber.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Mar 23, 2009, 11:02 AM
Post #41 of 88 (3597 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Unfortunately UPT has yet to respond to the owner.

As you read through the threads, there are several theories on the cause of the baglock. However, the non-release of the risers Is caused by the collapsed drouge not having enough drag to pull the risers off (or in some cases even open the riser covers)

Hopefully word gets out to clear the risers

My reaction is different. What the hell are we doing jumping gear where a collapsed drogue will lift the bag but won't clear the risers?

On what planet is this airworthy?!?

Here's another question: How many Sigma TM's check that the drogue is cocked before each jump? On a busy Saturday?

_Am


TheCaptain  (D License)

Mar 23, 2009, 11:14 AM
Post #42 of 88 (3594 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

On the checking for cocked drogue, I check my gear on ever jump even it I am turning in the field(so does everyone I work with) and that includes check that the drogue is cocked.
I would be very leary of a DZ or instructor that did not to preflight your rig every single jump.


(This post was edited by TheCaptain on Mar 23, 2009, 11:17 AM)


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 23, 2009, 6:46 PM
Post #43 of 88 (3469 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

"What the hell are we doing jumping gear where a collapsed drogue will lift the bag but won't clear the risers?"

I won't go into details, but the system is designed to collapse the drogue and I believe that all (most?) Tandem Systems do the same. (See Bill Booth's post above about this scenerio)

Now, based on my reading throughout this forum, I think that a Tandem Baglock creates a unique situation unlike a sport rig where the collapsed drogue does not stand you up or have the force to pull the risers off. On a sport rig, I chopped a baglock and it released instantly - BUT - it had the fully inflated pilot chute (The note above is interesting about the on-the-ground test to replicate this issue)

That all said - my intent for adding to this thread is to spread the word that a Tandem baglock is different than a sport baglock, and the procedures should be amended to ensure the TM clears the risers. It appears that some TMs know about this, but my personal opinion is not enough (like I didn't), and I would like the SIGMA manual and training (and possibly others) updated to refect this seemingly minor change. (My stomach is still uneasy after looking at pic: baglock 12 and realizing how bad it could have gotten)

As for checking the drogue, the compressed bridle to the upper left of the 'chimney' and the cocked 'window' allow TMs to check the drogue (and other items) efficiently before jumping. I have yet to see an Instructor put gear on the bus, or on their back, without doing a pre-gear inspection.


eric.fradet

Mar 23, 2009, 7:31 PM
Post #44 of 88 (3450 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

"What the hell are we doing jumping gear where a collapsed drogue will lift the bag but won't clear the risers?"
_______________________________________________

as a technical adviser I have to deal twice a year with exactly this same type of incident in France, with exactly the same scary situation as yours, not enough drag from a baglock cannot separate risers from the harness specially with a light passenger, it happens with any Tandem ( Atom, Advance, Vector) except maybe the Strong where the drogue collapses after the main will be deployed so the Dual Hawk has enough drag to release the risers,


VerticalRush  (D License)

Mar 23, 2009, 7:41 PM
Post #45 of 88 (3434 views)
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Re: [eric.fradet] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

What about creating a drogue with a staged collapse, or building pockets into the main d-bag that could catch some extra air the event of a rare low-drag mal??


meakins  (D 5870)

Mar 23, 2009, 9:00 PM
Post #46 of 88 (3418 views)
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Re: [VerticalRush] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

I got an email stating that UPT has issued a fix for drogues that collapse too fast and have a trap door too long. The fix adds one main slink to the drogue kill line. The mod will lengthen the kill line. Which will not collapse the drogue completely, therefore increasing the drag of the drogue even when collapsed. The thought is that this should also fix the problem of risers not releasing when a bag lock is cut-away.

I recommend all users of Sigma drogues verify this information then take appropriate measures. Don't delay. Two lives could be on the line.

Mike

PS I tried to upload the Word document from UPT. Says it's too big. You should get it from UPT anyway.


(This post was edited by meakins on Mar 23, 2009, 9:02 PM)


LavaLady  (F 387)

Mar 23, 2009, 9:13 PM
Post #47 of 88 (3412 views)
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Re: [meakins] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you have a PDF maker? if yes, the document will usually be smaller than a word doc - might be easier to upload.


meakins  (D 5870)

Mar 23, 2009, 9:29 PM
Post #48 of 88 (3406 views)
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Re: [LavaLady] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you have a PDF maker? if yes, the document will usually be smaller than a word doc - might be easier to upload.

Sorry, Even a PDF file is still too big...

Mike


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 24, 2009, 3:14 PM
Post #49 of 88 (3254 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

I got to watch the video today and wanted to add a few quick notes.

1. Drogue release to pulling handles was approx 5 seconds. While I confirmed that I pulled in the correct sequence, I was surprised about how quickly I pulled the reserve after the cutaway. I think it was the "Oh S@$t" factor, but I do wonder if intentionally waiting a second or two would have helped clear the risers

2. Reserve pull to full canopy was about 3 1/4 seconds. I think its amazing that the video (Shawn Foust) got off as many great shots as he did during that time.

Since my spot was a little long, I pulled arond 6200' and my altitrack recorded a 4450' opening.

Like Mike mentioned above, stills capture moments and I wanted to put the sequence in some type of time and altitude frame.
Mark


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 24, 2009, 8:36 PM
Post #50 of 88 (3213 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you ever grab the main risers before the breakaway? I've cleared a bag lock/hesitation that way more than once.


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