Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock?

 


skydiveoc  (D 12721)

Feb 19, 2007, 8:59 AM
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how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? Can't Post

I have video of a sigma bag locking and the cut away not releasing the mal. RWS said SOP was to clear risers manually in the event of a bag lock after cut away then deply reserve.

josh


crazydiver  (D 28022)

Feb 19, 2007, 12:41 PM
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

I always check to make sure the canopy is clear before deploying the reserve. So if the risers were hung up I would catch the issue.

Luckily...every sigma rig I jump, the riser covers pop open on the ground...I'd be very surprised and it would be super ironic if they were to NOT release in the air. Wink And yes, I know...magnetic riser covers...new, improved, bla bla bla


(This post was edited by crazydiver on Feb 19, 2007, 12:43 PM)


skydiveoc  (D 12721)

Feb 19, 2007, 3:02 PM
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Re: [crazydiver] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Riser covers were open. Lots of slack in the lines to the bag lock gave the mal the appearance that there was not enough tension to release the 3 ring. Similar to a horseshoe. TM fired the reserve with the baglock and it clears. Sickening to watch.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Feb 19, 2007, 5:25 PM
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

If the three rings are not properly maintained they can take a set that can make them slow to release in a baglock or other "low-lift" malfunction. UPT says to perform maintenance on any rig with a 3-ring once a month (see attached document).

If you have the video of the mal you are talking about, can you post a link? I would like to see it.
Attachments: 09219.pdf (57.2 KB)


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Feb 19, 2007, 6:46 PM
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have video of a sigma bag locking and the cut away not releasing the mal. RWS said SOP was to clear risers manually in the event of a bag lock after cut away then deply reserve.

josh

That is NOT the current SOP according to the UPT Tandem Examiner handbook received in Sept 2006. Maybe that has changed and word hasn't got around to the 3 T/E's that I talked to about it. I think any TI should have the awareness that the risers didn't clear, but....


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 19, 2007, 8:14 PM
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

by any chance was it the RSL side that hung up?

The fatality in Guam comes to mind here.


billbooth  (D 3546)

Feb 20, 2007, 7:51 AM
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Re: [linestretch] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
by any chance was it the RSL side that hung up?

The fatality in Guam comes to mind here.
It is probably possible that a collapsed-drogue-bag-lock will not generate enough force to unstrip the RSL velcro on a Sigma. However, that was not the cause of the Guam fatality. The reserve lines were wrapped around BOTH main line groups, just above the risers. This clearly indicates that BOTH main risers were still hooked up when the reserve was pulled.


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 20, 2007, 12:16 PM
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Re: [billbooth] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanx for the clarification. I don't remember reading that back when the report was filed or put out. That does make a big difference.


But....not to open this can of worms AGAIN....was it taken into consideration how much the gear was molested by the time it got to you or whoever did the analysis? I worked over there and know a little how the locals operate and what was relayed to me about scene. Just a thought.....I don't really see it as cut and dry.


billbooth  (D 3546)

Feb 20, 2007, 6:28 PM
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Re: [linestretch] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

The evidence looked pretty convincing to me. I came in a sealed container, and was opened at a neutral location in front of me, an FAA observer, and several other witnesses. We were also supplied with video and still pictures from the site, which agreed with the actual condition of the rig as I saw it. If someone played with something, I don't know how.


tsalnukt

Feb 21, 2007, 2:36 PM
Post #10 of 88 (7916 views)
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Shouldn't you always make sure the risers are clear before dumping a reserve....sport rig or tandem? That's just common sense to me.


billbooth  (D 3546)

Feb 21, 2007, 6:15 PM
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Re: [tsalnukt] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Shouldn't you always make sure the risers are clear before dumping a reserve....sport rig or tandem? That's just common sense to me.
It is possible with any rig to have a bag lock, or other low drag malfunction, that will not open tuck tab riser covers (which can take well over 30 lbs. of pull to open). You should always be sure that your risers are completely free before pulling your reserve ripcord.


skydiveoc  (D 12721)

Feb 22, 2007, 6:02 AM
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Re: [billbooth] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Shouln't a bag lock supply at least 30 pounds of pull force?


billbooth  (D 3546)

Feb 23, 2007, 7:13 PM
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Shouln't a bag lock supply at least 30 pounds of pull force?
Yes, (usually) if your main pilot chute is properly designed and fully open...No, if your main pilot chute is improperly designed or streamered. A common cause of a bag lock is forgetting to cock you pilot chute. The streamered pilot chute lifts the bag off so slowly, that the lines blow up over and around the bag. Pilot chutes can also knot up with their bridle. Remember, some people have landed fully open canopies that NEVER opened their tuck tab riser covers.


RTB  (D 582)

Feb 25, 2007, 3:18 AM
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Re: [billbooth] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You should always be sure that your risers are completely free before pulling your reserve ripcord.

This is interesting, does this mean that if you are using the RSL and have a baglock, that has not released the riser covers, you should manually release them before cutting away?


billbooth  (D 3546)

Feb 25, 2007, 7:55 AM
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Re: [RTB] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You should always be sure that your risers are completely free before pulling your reserve ripcord.

This is interesting, does this mean that if you are using the RSL and have a baglock, that has not released the riser covers, you should manually release them before cutting away?
Yes, if you have time.


Laszloimage  (D 22468)

Feb 26, 2007, 2:13 PM
Post #16 of 88 (7679 views)
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Re: [RTB] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Always makes me wonder what causes a bag-lock on a tandem? On the Sigma or systems with a similar d-bags (just like sport rigs) you really have to work on it to pack a baglock!!!
Just don't pack them, it super easy to prevent them.
-Laszlo-


bclark  (D 22626)

Mar 2, 2007, 5:20 PM
Post #17 of 88 (7589 views)
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Re: [Laszloimage] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that bag locks are largely preventable.
I would like to hear from some TI's who have actually HAD bag locks on Sigmas. What were your experiences? Did risers release on their own? Did you have to manually clear them? How about with Skyhooked Sigmas? I have heard the theory that with such a quick reserve extraction a cut away bag lock may fall into the reserve canopy.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Mar 6, 2007, 12:36 AM
Post #18 of 88 (7530 views)
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have video of a sigma bag locking and the cut away not releasing the mal.

Please post is here.


toronto_bill  (C 3085)

Mar 19, 2007, 11:05 PM
Post #19 of 88 (7445 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm....I do tandems on a Sigma. The chute always comes out the same. How many people use tube stows on all or some of the stows. Our DZ uses large elastics. They break a lot but we like that !


RMURRAY

Mar 20, 2007, 2:43 AM
Post #20 of 88 (7433 views)
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Re: [toronto_bill] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hmmm....I do tandems on a Sigma. The chute always comes out the same. How many people use tube stows on all or some of the stows. Our DZ uses large elastics. They break a lot but we like that !

elastics = rubber bands eh

Wink
rm


skydiveoc  (D 12721)

Mar 21, 2007, 6:03 AM
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Re: [RMURRAY] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

The rig in question here had medium stoes through the grommets and large tandem bands on the sides. No tube stoes and the same experienced packer with thousands of tandem packs. I feel every sigma master should have it in their mind to clear risers and plan to have a bag lock at any time.


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 15, 2009, 8:26 PM
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Re: [bclark] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

FYI -
I recently had a SIGMA Baglock where the risers did not release after I cutaway, and the reserve almost entangled with the main/drogue. It appears that the riser covers were open.

One TM who was at the DZ that day reported that he had been told always manually clear the risers for a baglock (due to low-drag), but most of us had not heard that response emphasized.

Therefore, two points
1-The pics showing my reserve going by my main made my stomach sick - i'm glad to be here.
2-Please help spread the word - manually clear risers on a collapsing-drogue systems (like SIGMAs) that experience a baglock. (This thread also discusses low-drag malfunctions not opening riser covers which is a similar situation to be concerned about).

Mark

FYI: We are evaluating the pictures/vid and will be sending to UPT for review, until then, they will not be posted.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Mar 16, 2009, 9:24 AM
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Re: [weavermc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Unfortunately easier said than done.

Deploy
Bag lock
release RSL
Cut Away
Manually clear risers
Stability?
Reserve.

Whew!


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 16, 2009, 9:28 AM
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Re: [Para5-0] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know its a lot - and to be honest, had I thought to do it, it would have been taxing.... however, looking at the "after" pics, I will now try to find a way to do all that in this situation.

I also read about the Guam Tandem fatality which involved a reserve/main entanglement and I feel lucky mine did not turn out that way.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Mar 16, 2009, 7:08 PM
Post #25 of 88 (6697 views)
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Re: [weavermc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Frick! Glad you're ok! If I was jumping a system where if I had a baglock I would have to unhook the RSL, cutaway, clear the risers, then pull the reserve - I would at least never hook the RSL up to save one step! That costs a LOT of time - where you're still going freefall speeds...

The skyhooks are a good system, and I like the idea of RSLs on tandems, but having to disconnect it during a high-speed malfunction just seems like a bad idea..


fincher  (E License)

Mar 16, 2009, 7:52 PM
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Re: [weavermc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

ok, I'm going to chime in here with my experience with this. I feel this is a worth while thread. I had a baglock on a IAF jump with the student pulling. I will no longer give the student much leeway for pulling. I will be dumping it at 5.5 myself. He is not getting till 5 to pull and there is no way im going to 4500 myself.
here is what happened. The student fumbled around and pulled. I felt the trap door 2-3 seconds nothing. I initiate ep's. cutaway then reach reserve. As i reach for reserve i can see out of corner of eye that left side riser is clear. I never checked the right. I was only focused on getting the reserve out. By this time we were above 160mph according to my alti. I pull reserve. It opens in typical rock and roll style. About that time I feel something bounce off my foot. I look down to see that lines from the still connected right riser have wrapped on my foot. with main trailing still in the bag. Right side then disconnects but does not free my foot. Now the main begins partially snaking out of one corner of a partially open D-bag. The pressure on my leg and hip was torture. I was becoming a human wishbone. A hook knife was useless. I would have needed a 3 foot long handle to reach those lines on my foot. I tried to pull hard against it to slip my shoe hoping that the lines would slip off with it. But the shoe was cinched down tight. I landed uneventful and very softly with a nice head wind. But if that main would have inflated it would be game over. However if the main did inflate it probably would have pulled my shoe off and freed me of the lines. By the time I landed I had almost slipped free. None the less I dont care to ever try it again to find out.

Bottom line. PULL HIGH! and CLEAR BOTH RISERS. if you are low then CLEAR BOTH RISERS. Dont be afraid of a cypres fire. Rather have a clear reserve by cypres than a entangled conglomerate of death by a manual reserve deployment.

I took for granted that the right side cleared. learn from my mistake. I was purely focused on getting a canopy out, which is a normal reaction and probably the most natural one. SO really visualize this scenario and train yourself mentally for it.


meakins  (D 5870)

Mar 18, 2009, 9:14 AM
Post #27 of 88 (4148 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

weavermc had a stand up landing in the DZ after having a near death experience last weekend. Having seen some of the photos to which weavermc refers, I can provide some input.

In one photo you see an unsmiling weavermc looking over his shoulder.

In another photo you see the bag lock. Zooming in to the bag shows a lot of pull on one of the locking rubberbands stretched out 8 - 10 inches. Sure I can't measure the force, but it is clear it's not just floating there. It's being pulled.

In another photo the reserve bag is next to the main bag. Reserve lines are all over the place. The reserve pilot chute is fully inflated. The reserve is coming out of the bag. Indication here is that both bags are entangled. In the same photo you can see that the instructor has pulled both handles and the main is still in tow only by the risers.

In another photo you see the reserve inflated and surging from the opening. The main appears to be still attached by the risers to the three rings. At the same moment the reserve bag is wrapped around an 'A' line and the drogue's entangled with reserve bridle just below the reserve pilot chute.

The still photos I examined do not show the sequence in which the handles were pulled. Need to rely on the instructor and watch the video for that information. But the photos do verify that the main did not release when the cutaway handle was pulled.

If I find out more factual information, I will post it here.

Mike
D-5870

Now some editorial comment...

No one wants to think there might be a problem with the gear. It's calming to think the instructor did something wrong, especially if you're jumping similar equipment. Oh, ya... It's all the packers fault, anyway.

Someone will ask me to post these photos. Don't bother. Still photos provide frozen moments during a period of time and can easily be doctored up. I know the photos, as I received them, are not changed in anyway.

Why did someone give them to me? I've been in the sport 36.5 years, am a tandem examiner with 6,000 tandem jumps (yes, I still jump) and understand the importance of learning from the experience of others. I want all of you to die of old age.

I've noticed over the years how intently we all examine the situations around fatalities. Yet, we seem to gloss over incidents which resulted in a stand up landing in the DZ, when in fact someone almost died. In the latter situation, we have the added benefit of a witness, the instructor!

One note:

I don't see "RELEASE THE RSL" or "CLEAR THE RISERS" in the flow chart for -main malfunction- in any tandem system. Every time I've pulled a cutaway handle on a tandem jump you feel the the release instantly, and the RSL beats me to the reserve pull. Every time! Even when it was a bag lock.

One question:

Who thinks additional procedures should be added and the flow chart(s) be changed?


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 18, 2009, 2:35 PM
Post #28 of 88 (4107 views)
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Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Once the DZ owner has had a chance to talk to UPT, we will probably post one or two of the pics, but I'd like to expand on what Mike correctly expalined from my Mal.

"In another photo the reserve bag is next to the main bag. Reserve lines are all over the place. The reserve pilot chute is fully inflated. The reserve is coming out of the bag. Indication here is that both bags are entangled."

**My addition/clarification is based on looking at the pics over and over - I can't confirm this is the sequence 100%, but this is what the pictures seem to indicate to me (Mike - please review the pics again and comment)**

-As the Reserve Pilot Chute launched, it "snaked/wrapped" around the righthand set of lines as it launches off my back.
-Fully inflated, the reserve pilot chute continues launching, pulling the reserve freebag out of the container and dumping the lines out of the freebag - BUT, still wrapped one time around one set of lines.
-The Reserve PC continues to launch until the freebag hits the main d-bag. At this point, the reserve bridle is still wrapped around one set of lines and is holding the reserve pilot chute in place, preventing reserve line stretch. I THINK that the 'banging' of the freebag against the d-bag knocked the reserve out of the freebag, and then starts to inflate - WHILE - the main drogue, d-bag, lines and reserve pilot chute/bridle/freebag are still entangled.
NOTE: Even the drag created by the Reserve Pilot Chute (which was wrapped around the lines at the d-bag) was not enough to release the risers from the 3-ring.

(VERY) Luckily for me, the reserve was able to open, and as it fully opened, the drag on the deflated drogue/d-bag/reserve PC stopped, allowing it to fall below me. Then, the pressure/force of the falling & baglocked d-bag pulled the risers off of the 3-ring system.

Again, as I mentioned previously, the sequence of events started with a baglock, and was aggravated due to the low-drag of the collapsed drogue/d-bag failing to "pull" the cutatway risers off of the 3-ring system. This is despite the fact that there was enough pressure to open the magnetic riser covers (a related issue to this that Bill Booth discusses earlier in this thread).

It is true that picture(s) will be worth a thousand words, but until we post them, please learn from this near-fatality (like Mike mentioned) and educate TM's to check risers after chopping a baglock -
The life you save may be your own.

Thanks
Mark


skydiveoc  (D 12721)

Mar 19, 2009, 5:55 AM
Post #29 of 88 (4056 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess for the next 50 tandems or so without video, I am going to imagine myself having a baglock and "handles checking" my RSL and 3 rings on the way down. Repetition and mind awareness drills to a new reaction.


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 19, 2009, 7:22 AM
Post #30 of 88 (4037 views)
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Re: [skydiveoc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Good idea - I know for me it is going to be a big change to the last 15 years of thought-processing about high-spped malfunction emergency procedures.


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 21, 2009, 6:18 AM
Post #31 of 88 (3963 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

To further add to my posts above, pics are now posted below in an attempt to emphasize the near fatality I had on this jump.

I personally think that the Tandem Manufacturers should include this in the training and, at least in SIGMAs case, update the "Malfunction Flowchart" to add "clear risers" following cutaway from a baglock (or horseshoe).

At the very minimum, I hope TMs see this and realize to add the step of manually checking risers during high-speed, low-drag malfunctions.

Baglock 9 - Shows both handles out, Reserve PC launching and wrapping around the right side lines.

Baglock 12 - Shows the Reserve PC hindered by the bridle wrapped around lines & caught on d-bag. The freebag is banging against the d-bag (causing - i think - the reserve to be knocked out)

Baglock 13 - Shows the the same as 12 but more reserve out

Baglock 16 - Shows the reserve opening with the dbag connected by at least one riser, the drogue above the reserve, and everything inter-mingled.

Baglock 18 - Shows the d-bag still connected by at least one riser while falling away and the reserve PC/freebag still wrapped (although coming free)

Please PM me if you need better quality pics to show TMs (These are already cropped from originals but I had to resize them from 500-700KB down to 250KB to upload)
Attachments: 090314 Baglock - 09.jpg (250 KB)
  090314 Baglock - 12.jpg (251 KB)
  090314 Baglock - 13.jpg (247 KB)
  090314 Baglock - 16.jpg (214 KB)
  090314 Baglock - 18.jpg (233 KB)


scrub  (D License)

Mar 21, 2009, 9:11 PM
Post #32 of 88 (3823 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks for the info glad to see people talking an learning from that an not shine it on like i lived no big deal.. i hope we all know that was a close one.


hairymango

Mar 22, 2009, 2:27 AM
Post #33 of 88 (3778 views)
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Seen three bag locks in the last few months on Sigmas which havent cleared after TM cutaway. Both TMs had to clear risers, once they cleared, skyhook did its job and beat them to the reserve. Im told by the TM that had two of the mals that it becomes easier the second time Smile


baronn  (D 22387)

Mar 22, 2009, 8:22 AM
Post #34 of 88 (3744 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Holy Crap! That is some scary stuff! Your camera person must have thought they were witnessing a double mal. Glad you got thru that OK. The real question here is, have you figured out what caused this? The mains not releasing seems like a big problem to me. the photos clearly show the cutaway handle out. I'd really like to know what UPT and anyone else has to say about this.


(This post was edited by baronn on Mar 22, 2009, 8:37 AM)


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 22, 2009, 8:36 AM
Post #35 of 88 (3735 views)
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Re: [baronn] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Unfortunately UPT has yet to respond to the owner.

As you read through the threads, there are several theories on the cause of the baglock. However, the non-release of the risers Is caused by the collapsed drouge not having enough drag to pull the risers off (or in some cases even open the riser covers)

Hopefully word gets out to clear the risers


baronn  (D 22387)

Mar 22, 2009, 8:45 AM
Post #36 of 88 (3729 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems a bit hard to tell from the angle of the photo but, it looks like the tension from the baglock is on the left side. I'm not sure if the riser covers are released or not. Whether it's the angle of the shot or not but, that is WAY too close for comfort. It could have gone real bad. I still don't understand why the risers didn't release? Even with a collapsed drogue, it should have enough tweak to separate them. Please see about getting a definite answer here, I'm already scared enough.


koppel  (F License)

Mar 22, 2009, 3:23 PM
Post #37 of 88 (3688 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad it all worked out.

One question please, how often is 3-ring maintenance done on that rig? Is it a set number of jumps, ie every 25/50 jumps? A set time frame ie every week/fortnight etc Is there a system that tracks and ensures that in fact the schedule that is in place is followed?

Not casting doubts on your systems, just wondering what they are.


Wharewaka  (D License)

Mar 23, 2009, 2:12 AM
Post #38 of 88 (3625 views)
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Re: [baronn] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Take a person with a tandem rig, put person flat on the ground, ask him to cutaway, pull the risers up in an angle like a baglock, watch the result. Might be that it will take some force to release, have not done this test but heard of it.

I wasn't there for the making of the 3 rings but looks like they are designed for more vertical use, isn't it even important that the loop that goes through the riser is long enough that the rings get the right angle when under canopy?

In the case of a baglock the 3 rings will have to release in a different angle, 90 or so degrees different from most cutaways. That is one reason that the tm might need to help the 3 rings release. Or so I heard.

This is not new, just seems like its not been passed on to everyone.

If RSL is on right side, then clear left first. I would try to do so anyway.
it's hard to see the risers on a tandem baglock. I heard that some instructors looking at the 3 rings itself.

My last baglock I could only see that the main was not gone and tried to bang the risers. They came off, like they seem to always do, just have to stay cool.

Maybe less mid day changing of underwear if the droug had more drag after collapsing, but sometimes there is a knot on the drouge after exit or some shit like that and if you get a baglock then, you might have to help to release the risers.


meakins  (D 5870)

Mar 23, 2009, 6:42 AM
Post #39 of 88 (3598 views)
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Re: [koppel] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

"Not casting doubts on your systems..."
You're not? Sorry, that's hardly the case here.

The Sigmas at SMB are all new! The oldest right around six months in use. The newest just a couple weeks in service. Maybe a couple have been through one reserve pack cycle.

I'd like to put the question out there. Does this situation occur when there is a malfunction that doesn't have enough drag to open the riser covers?

Mike


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 23, 2009, 7:57 AM
Post #40 of 88 (3583 views)
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Re: [hairymango] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Seen three bag locks in the last few months on Sigmas
Unimpressed
That right there is an attention-grabber.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Mar 23, 2009, 11:02 AM
Post #41 of 88 (3543 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Unfortunately UPT has yet to respond to the owner.

As you read through the threads, there are several theories on the cause of the baglock. However, the non-release of the risers Is caused by the collapsed drouge not having enough drag to pull the risers off (or in some cases even open the riser covers)

Hopefully word gets out to clear the risers

My reaction is different. What the hell are we doing jumping gear where a collapsed drogue will lift the bag but won't clear the risers?

On what planet is this airworthy?!?

Here's another question: How many Sigma TM's check that the drogue is cocked before each jump? On a busy Saturday?

_Am


TheCaptain  (D License)

Mar 23, 2009, 11:14 AM
Post #42 of 88 (3540 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

On the checking for cocked drogue, I check my gear on ever jump even it I am turning in the field(so does everyone I work with) and that includes check that the drogue is cocked.
I would be very leary of a DZ or instructor that did not to preflight your rig every single jump.


(This post was edited by TheCaptain on Mar 23, 2009, 11:17 AM)


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 23, 2009, 6:46 PM
Post #43 of 88 (3415 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

"What the hell are we doing jumping gear where a collapsed drogue will lift the bag but won't clear the risers?"

I won't go into details, but the system is designed to collapse the drogue and I believe that all (most?) Tandem Systems do the same. (See Bill Booth's post above about this scenerio)

Now, based on my reading throughout this forum, I think that a Tandem Baglock creates a unique situation unlike a sport rig where the collapsed drogue does not stand you up or have the force to pull the risers off. On a sport rig, I chopped a baglock and it released instantly - BUT - it had the fully inflated pilot chute (The note above is interesting about the on-the-ground test to replicate this issue)

That all said - my intent for adding to this thread is to spread the word that a Tandem baglock is different than a sport baglock, and the procedures should be amended to ensure the TM clears the risers. It appears that some TMs know about this, but my personal opinion is not enough (like I didn't), and I would like the SIGMA manual and training (and possibly others) updated to refect this seemingly minor change. (My stomach is still uneasy after looking at pic: baglock 12 and realizing how bad it could have gotten)

As for checking the drogue, the compressed bridle to the upper left of the 'chimney' and the cocked 'window' allow TMs to check the drogue (and other items) efficiently before jumping. I have yet to see an Instructor put gear on the bus, or on their back, without doing a pre-gear inspection.


eric.fradet

Mar 23, 2009, 7:31 PM
Post #44 of 88 (3396 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

"What the hell are we doing jumping gear where a collapsed drogue will lift the bag but won't clear the risers?"
_______________________________________________

as a technical adviser I have to deal twice a year with exactly this same type of incident in France, with exactly the same scary situation as yours, not enough drag from a baglock cannot separate risers from the harness specially with a light passenger, it happens with any Tandem ( Atom, Advance, Vector) except maybe the Strong where the drogue collapses after the main will be deployed so the Dual Hawk has enough drag to release the risers,


VerticalRush  (D License)

Mar 23, 2009, 7:41 PM
Post #45 of 88 (3380 views)
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Re: [eric.fradet] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

What about creating a drogue with a staged collapse, or building pockets into the main d-bag that could catch some extra air the event of a rare low-drag mal??


meakins  (D 5870)

Mar 23, 2009, 9:00 PM
Post #46 of 88 (3364 views)
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Re: [VerticalRush] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

I got an email stating that UPT has issued a fix for drogues that collapse too fast and have a trap door too long. The fix adds one main slink to the drogue kill line. The mod will lengthen the kill line. Which will not collapse the drogue completely, therefore increasing the drag of the drogue even when collapsed. The thought is that this should also fix the problem of risers not releasing when a bag lock is cut-away.

I recommend all users of Sigma drogues verify this information then take appropriate measures. Don't delay. Two lives could be on the line.

Mike

PS I tried to upload the Word document from UPT. Says it's too big. You should get it from UPT anyway.


(This post was edited by meakins on Mar 23, 2009, 9:02 PM)


LavaLady  (F 387)

Mar 23, 2009, 9:13 PM
Post #47 of 88 (3358 views)
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Re: [meakins] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you have a PDF maker? if yes, the document will usually be smaller than a word doc - might be easier to upload.


meakins  (D 5870)

Mar 23, 2009, 9:29 PM
Post #48 of 88 (3352 views)
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Re: [LavaLady] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you have a PDF maker? if yes, the document will usually be smaller than a word doc - might be easier to upload.

Sorry, Even a PDF file is still too big...

Mike


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 24, 2009, 3:14 PM
Post #49 of 88 (3200 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

I got to watch the video today and wanted to add a few quick notes.

1. Drogue release to pulling handles was approx 5 seconds. While I confirmed that I pulled in the correct sequence, I was surprised about how quickly I pulled the reserve after the cutaway. I think it was the "Oh S@$t" factor, but I do wonder if intentionally waiting a second or two would have helped clear the risers

2. Reserve pull to full canopy was about 3 1/4 seconds. I think its amazing that the video (Shawn Foust) got off as many great shots as he did during that time.

Since my spot was a little long, I pulled arond 6200' and my altitrack recorded a 4450' opening.

Like Mike mentioned above, stills capture moments and I wanted to put the sequence in some type of time and altitude frame.
Mark


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 24, 2009, 8:36 PM
Post #50 of 88 (3159 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you ever grab the main risers before the breakaway? I've cleared a bag lock/hesitation that way more than once.


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 26, 2009, 8:01 AM
Post #51 of 88 (2837 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

I have also succesfully yanked a baglock clear by pulling on risers on my personal gear.

After watching the video, I did reach up to grab the risers, but made a quick decision to not lose precious altitude trying to clear the mal with a Tandem Passenger on front. This was a quick decision made due to my spot, because I had a video guy still in freefall (he still landed out), and I wanted max time to deal with the reserve due it being a Tandem.

In retrospect, I think I made the right decision because pulling on the risers would not have met any resistance due to the collapsed drogue - unlike a sport rig which has an inflated pilot chute to pull against.

On another note, I have seen the UPT mod for extending drogue kill lines to help prevent this. The file is a 3MB .pdf so not postable, but I have not yet found on the UPT website. While they recommend only mod'ing canopies with long trap doors, our owner is going to mod all of our SIGMAs to prevent this near fatal mal happening again (the alternative is potentially harder openings).

I can email the file if wanted.

Mark


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 26, 2009, 1:38 PM
Post #52 of 88 (2788 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is. The better question to ask is - with the normal drag of a collapsed drogue, and the risers DO release during a bag lock - after the riser activates the RSL, is there data that the bag and drogue will clear the opening reserve and not fall into it? I believe the answer is yes.I would like to have input from UPT. There is a good deal of drag from the collapsed drogue to clear the baglock as you fall away( watch how much time it takes the Drogue/baglock to hit the ground). If you do a test and pull the risers on the ground you get plenty of extension to activate the RSL.

The guy in the picture screwed up. If you do the procedure correctly, you can't be holding the cutaway handle and the reserve handle at the same time


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 26, 2009, 3:19 PM
Post #53 of 88 (2763 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
After watching the video, I did reach up to grab the risers, but made a quick decision to not lose precious altitude trying to clear the mal with a Tandem Passenger on front. This was a quick decision made due to my spot, because I had a video guy still in freefall (he still landed out), and I wanted max time to deal with the reserve due it being a Tandem.

I'm not second guessing you, you're walking and talking, so job well done.Smile

Quote:
In retrospect, I think I made the right decision because pulling on the risers would not have met any resistance due to the collapsed drogue - unlike a sport rig which has an inflated pilot chute to pull against.

In fact a collapsed Sigma drogue has more drag than a standard skydiving pilot chute.

Quote:
On another note, I have seen the UPT mod for extending drogue kill lines to help prevent this. The file is a 3MB .pdf so not postable, but I have not yet found on the UPT website. While they recommend only mod'ing canopies with long trap doors, our owner is going to mod all of our SIGMAs to prevent this near fatal mal happening again (the alternative is potentially harder openings).

Trapdoor has nothing to do with the canopy and everything to do with the drogue.


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 26, 2009, 3:58 PM
Post #54 of 88 (2753 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Utah,
Can you please elaborate on how the guy in the picture (me) screwed up? I recognized a high speed malfunction, pulled the cutaway handle and then the reserve handle in accordance with the UPT manual (I believe chapter 4).

Also, the point of me posting this is to let TMs know that sometimes the collapsed drouge does NOT have enough drag to lift the risers off the 3-ring which requires manually clearing the risers (which is not covered in the manual)

I'm also willing to learn so I look forward to any constructive input.


lowpull  (D 18385)

Mar 26, 2009, 7:47 PM
Post #55 of 88 (2716 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

"The guy in the picture screwed up. If you do the procedure correctly, you can't be holding the cutaway handle and the reserve handle at the same time "


What???

Please Explain


camamel  (D 333)

Mar 27, 2009, 10:11 AM
Post #56 of 88 (2666 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

My understanding is yes you can if the pictures was taken after the second handles was released.

Richard


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Mar 27, 2009, 1:06 PM
Post #57 of 88 (2643 views)
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Re: [meakins] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I got an email stating that UPT has issued a fix for drogues that collapse too fast and have a trap door too long. The fix adds one main slink to the drogue kill line.

At some point a few years ago RWS/UPT changed their drogues. I ordered a couple, and the comparatively long trap door was scaring me! I checked back with RWS (it was before the name change), and they advised of the a fore mentioned modification to extend the kill line. I've done it to every drogue I've purchased from UPT since! Reasoning for the change? Something to do with performance at sea level or some crap. I suppose Bill Booth might be able to explane.

Martin

Maritn


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Mar 29, 2009, 12:36 PM
Post #58 of 88 (2549 views)
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a similar experience with an original Vector Tandem system in about 1992-1993 in Canada.

Bag lock malfunction, pulled the cutaway. The RSL side released and the reserve went immediately into it. The other riser eventually released, but I watched the reserve (swimming in lines and crap), eventually open, with an enormous knot of lines, risers and such on the right side just above my head.

Hook-knife my ass, I needed a chainsaw. The knot of those old Dacron lines was the size of a football. The right toggle was stuck as it slid through all that and the reserve was spinning hard to the right.

I had the student hold the left toggle down to stop the spin, worked enough of the knot loose so that I could steer a bit with the right toggle. But it was so sticky, I just chose to do left turns for the entire pattern. All this time the main started to come out of the bag, creating more and more drag behind the right side.

In the end, a stand up landing in the peas, with the now-deploying main parachute trailing behind me.

In my entire skydiving career, the only time I eve thought I was going in was when I looked up and saw the reserve deploying into al that shit over my head......

Clearing the risers when you have a bag-lock does not matter a shit if the RSL side releases - the bottom line is that the collapsing drogue does not offer enough drag to pull the 3-rings free.

TK Hayes


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 29, 2009, 3:52 PM
Post #59 of 88 (2522 views)
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Re: [lowpull] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is going to be long, but I'm copying the dialog between me and the TM. We also had a great conversation on the phone... Please call, I love talkin' about this stuff...

Steve -
I'm interested in you expanding your comment about the SIGMA Malfunction. You mentioned that I screwed up by having both handles and i'm not sure what you meant (as well other people).

Please update your response so I can learn.

Sorry if I sounded abrasive, I tend to do that to get someones attention especially during an evaluation. Being allowed to operate a tandem rig means you are in a professional capacity with another person relying on your skill to keep them as safe as possible. When I do a UPT Tandem eval. course, one of the first things the candidate hears is the absolute need to RESPOND intelligently to a situation, not REACT. There is a huge difference. To work our gear safely, we must use correct sequencing. To do that, we must begin the action(say cutting away), observe the RESULTS of the action, and then RESPOND accordingly. In your case, the fact that the risers had not cleared but the reserve handle had been pulled meant you did not observe the result of the act of cutting away to insure clean air for the reserve. You reacted instead of responded, which is why your hands are full of handles with the risers still attached. It also may have been an over sight in your training.

Please let me pose you a question and a phone call would be great... I have 13 tandem chops in 22 years. 2 high speed, the rest low. All on Vector 2 or Sigmas(all with RSL's, with and without skyhook). On all 13 I've had my hand on the reserve handle during the cutaway but have never pulled it,and I mean never. Why didn't I pull the reserve handle? 914-588-0190

Utah

Steve -
thanks for the clarification, that actually helps explain your comment. Like I said, i'm here to learn, and I think that putting the gist of this PM on the thread is good learning (the respond vs react).

I've tried to be open and honest in this thread because my point was explain to other TMs that there is a possibility of risers not releasing. For better or worse - in my 15 years of jumping - that scenerio has never happened or been discussed. Therefore, I reacted as I had been trained and never even considered that the risers wouldn't release.

My hope is that my pictures will gain attention, and other experts can help teach other TMs how to better handle emergencies so we avoid fatalities...in your case, the respond vs react is a great addition.

Finally - to answer your question, your RSL has worked on your chops. Yesterday, all of our instructors were discussing this and came to the same conclusion - get away from what i was taught and been teaching for 14 years during FJCs (i.e. RSL is a backup - don't rely on it - always pull reserve), and move towards a version of what you say - CHOP - Look (if all is well RSL will pull reserve) - and if necessary - clear problems and pull reserve.

I'm about to head out to the DZ, we have our first busy day of the season so i'll be busy. I may try to call you in about 45 minutes if that's okay (its a short drive to the DZ). My number is (512)964-0408 and email is weavermc@hotmail.com.

Again - thanks for the clarification, and I hope you put a version of this on the thread to help teach others. I'm just glad my fate wasn't the same as the Guam fatality.


Absolutely. Reading between the lines in the 'finally" paragraph, you can see the oversight that is rife in the industry... We are taught and then teach single harness dual parachute thinking. which is basically 'dump' then 'holy shit!' then 'ka-ching, ka-ching, hope this works' then 'ha ha, f'you reaper'. Respond vs. React is easy to say but real hard to do in our environment and double hard in tandem.

A tandem rig has 6 sequences that are used vs. 3 on sport rigs (without RSL's) 1)drogue deployment, 2-3) primary/secondary pilot chute (drogue) release handles, 4)cutaway, 5)primary reserve deployment device(RSL) 6)secondary reserve deployment device(red handle). That is the correct method of thinking with this gear. It is a complex piece of equipment.

Some folks look at me like I'm crazy never to have pulled the reserve handle; not realizing that I didn't need it. I've heard stuff like "just making sure" "makes me feel good" "it's the right thing to do", etc. The "just making sure" is the most egregious because they are saying that they don't know what the gear is doing. and are operating in the 'boogey-man vs.reality'; 'hope vs. know' world.

We all get the 'holy shit' kick when something happens like a mal, but the true pro then goes 'OK, got that in check, let's go to work gettin' this right' which is 'action, check results, respond accordingly'. That type of thinking is the difference between a skydiver with a tandem rating and a Tandem MASTER.


Utah


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 29, 2009, 4:06 PM
Post #60 of 88 (2521 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yo TK, can't wait to see ya again, my friend. 80's, early 90's when tandem was 'oh yeah!... I was considering what would happen on the same jump today with a Collins/RSL/RDS. A whole lot different, I bet... Deb sends her love and you don't wanna know what I'm thinkin' 'bout you, you 'hunka, hunka'...


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 29, 2009, 4:36 PM
Post #61 of 88 (2515 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the post Steve!

I try to teach more advanced skydivers the necessity of taking that "step" in the EP of making sure things are going the way they should and RESPOND to the situation accurately. With an FJC student we have the challenge of making sure there isn't an unintended "dear in the headlights" freeze, but since we should be ever learning in this sport, there is room for additional training along the way.

Oh, and I just had lunch, so if you an TK could flirt elsewhere......tell Deb she's still to good for ya. Tongue


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 29, 2009, 6:33 PM
Post #62 of 88 (2494 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm, fliritng, hmmm, OK, 'nuff said(only you know how it could be...). The Idea of getting people to understand that 'Sully's' are created(a combo of self and institutional training) and should be what we aspire to and Examiners should direct toward. Tandem should be 'no room for yahoos, this is serious shit with the innocent public, yo'...


Mixoligist  (D 26787)

Mar 29, 2009, 7:08 PM
Post #63 of 88 (2489 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is the first good thread with valuable information and opinions in a long time.
Utah and T.K. clearly know what's what.
Good food for thought.

Thanks


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 30, 2009, 3:01 PM
Post #64 of 88 (2392 views)
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Re: [Mixoligist] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a cheat cheat I've been handing out for years to my candidates and any TM who wants it. I suggest briefing with something like this everyday of operation.

SIGMA AND TV2 TANDEM PROCEDURES

AIRCRAFT EMERGENCY ALTITUDE MINIMUMS:
1. 0’ to 1500’ Ride the aircraft down. Student should be unhooked and belted in.
2. 1500’ to 4500’ Reserve only.
3. 4500’ to altitude Standard main deployment.

MALFUNCTION DECISION ALTITUDE:
3000’ is the decision altitude minimum (hard deck) for cutting away from a malfunctioning main canopy. This is the minimum you need to stay out of trouble with the AAD. (Imagine the AAD firing the reserve into a high speed streamer!)

EMERGENCY PROCEDURES IN FREEFALL:

1. No Drogue (stuck in pouch)

2. Trapped Drogue (against the body)

3. Entangled Drogue (wrapped around something)
All of these problems are to be considered as TOTAL MALFUNCTIONS.
The correct procedure is the same as in solo jumping: Try to clear
2-3 times, then go immediately to the reserve only.

A DROGUE IS NOT A PILOT CHUTE!!!

Everything else, from a pilot chute in tow (which is very different from an entangled drogue), to a low or high-speed malfunction, will be handled in the proper sequence only.
An entangled or trapped drogue must be discovered before any handles are pulled! If you make the mistake of assuming that your drogue is deployed properly (no visual check and no foot check on the back of the container), you may use the wrong procedure and potentially murder your student and kill yourself. (especially on a V-2)

A deployed drogue becomes a pilot chute-in-tow only when both the main and the secondary pilot chute release handles have been pulled with no results or, the handle(s) won’t come out for some reason. Arguments go either way on whether you should cutaway or not.
An out of sequence deployment, responded to improperly, is responsible for the most tandem fatalities. The Tandem Master must re-sequence the deployment.

If for any reason the main container comes open in freefall you must:

1. Deploy the drogue (if not deployed) and turn it into a pilot chute with the pilot chute(drogue) release handles and observe the results.

2. Cut away the malfunction and observe the results.

3. Pull the reserve

Obviously, if you react without thinking, instead of thinking and responding, and cut away and pull the reserve, or just pull the reserve, the chance of a main-reserve entanglement is well documented.

A deployed drogue is not a pilot chute until the pilot chute(drogue) release handle(s) have been pulled.

DO NOT REACT DURING AN EMERGENCY OR ANY OTHER TIME!

RESPOND

There’s a big difference. Take that deep breath to pull it all together, or spend the rest of your short life wishing you had.

GEAR AND HANDLE CHECKS:
DO THEM!
(On the ground, in the plane, in the air, the same way, and every time)
Not doing these checks is just F*****G STUPID. And F*****G STUPID people should stay on the STUPID F*****G ground. This goes for all other checks, too. Don’t let someone else screw up because you weren’t keeping an eye out for other jumpers’ gear mistakes.

SIDE SPINS and OUT-OF CONTROL TUMBLING

You must remember not to let the dynamic that creates the spin or tumble to continue. You must break the problem created by the TM and Passenger body position, then present to the relative wind. The following procedure will ALWAYS work. It is just simple physics…

Forcefully pulling down the students arms as far as possible with your own and holding them, keeping your legs as wide as possible (do not waste time trying to get the passengers legs with your legs) will eventually stop any spinning or tumbling and turn it into a head down barrel roll. You then recover to your belly with an explosive, hard arch by the TM, then immediate drogue throw.

REMEMBER: FLY FIRST, THEN PLACE THE DROGUE, CHECK IT’S PLACEMENT, DO ALL HANDLE CHECKS, THEN HAVE FUN!

Please contact me at anytime regarding harnessing, deployment body positioning, containment and/or landing procedures concerning ‘outside the ordinary’ passengers, etc.

Thanks,

Steve ‘Utah’ Webb
914.588.0190
steve@utahsteve.com


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 30, 2009, 3:38 PM
Post #65 of 88 (2385 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a little more(yeah, right)

Concerning UPT bag- lock procedures. If you have cutaway with no riser release. first of all, correct eye positioning prior to the chop is two-fold; check to see if the RSL is connected, then look at the left riser for release during the chop. There is the possibility that after the chop, the right riser releases to pull the reserve pin and the left riser stays put. I would think you would want to know that to grab and manually release it. If you have both risers attached after the chop, if you grab and manually remove the risers you should take at least the right riser and pull it to full arm extension to activate the reserve(you might also want to let it go after that, duh).

Another scenario...Whens the last time y'all considered the correct procedure for a skydiver entangled in your drogue? How's this sound? Say it looks like he's tied up real good. There is no potential for a drogue release. This is a reserve only situation. You must immediately upon determining that he is not going to untangle, disconnect the RSL and cutaway. This move sets you and your passenger up for future clean air. Next, try to cut the drogue bridle with the hook knife to free you from the entangled skydiver. Why? Because I bet he would much rather just have to deal with a bridle and drogue vs. drogue, bridle, d-bag, main, suspension lines, risers, I mean cut the guy some slack (bad pun) IF YOU'VE GOT THE TIME. Then move to clean air and deploy the reserve only.
The alternative is if you can't for some reason cut the drogue bridle, you have to dump your main into the poor guy, fall away, move to clean air and deploy the reserve(don't look back).
Now let's say that just after you chop and disconnect the RSL the SOB manages to clear himself and your back to drogue fall. I personally am going to deploy the main, fall away, get clean air and deploy the reserve. I would just as soon not deploy into a drogue if I don't have to(although it appears to relatively safe to do so).

I think that covers it for now.... thanks


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Mar 31, 2009, 10:37 AM
Post #66 of 88 (2313 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just brought to my attention. In the last 2 sentences it should read 'and you are (not your) back to ' and
'(although it appears to be relatively safe to do so).


hairymango

Apr 5, 2009, 1:27 AM
Post #67 of 88 (2073 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Great posts - good food for thought on skydiver tangled with your drouge/bridle!

Maybe adding in the EP for main container opening, and also not being able to depoy drouge would be a good addition to your cheat sheet.


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Apr 5, 2009, 7:10 AM
Post #68 of 88 (2061 views)
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Re: [hairymango] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the input, I was beginning to think I frightened everyone away! I agree about the cheat sheet. I use it as a catalyst to jump start/set the verbal training side of the eval. process with the goal of getting everyone on the same page before we get into the air(the whole primacy/recency thing). I feel that is the best time to cement the respond vs. react paradigm. I should get off my ass and flesh it out a bit. I felt it was pretty pretentious putting all that out on the thread and hope it wasn't too much(I just couldn't help myself!).

Thanks,


Mixoligist  (D 26787)

Apr 5, 2009, 12:00 PM
Post #69 of 88 (2039 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

shut up steve, you talk too muchTongue


mnskydiver688  (D 30125)

Apr 5, 2009, 12:02 PM
Post #70 of 88 (2035 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it bad that I am reconsidering becoming a tandem master after reading this thread? Thanks for the read. First thread in a long time I have come away thinking, a lot.


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Apr 5, 2009, 6:16 PM
Post #71 of 88 (1999 views)
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Re: [Mixoligist] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I know, but considering the...


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Apr 5, 2009, 6:32 PM
Post #72 of 88 (1994 views)
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Re: [mnskydiver688] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tandem is not for everyone, which is hard to swallow for some considering the earning potential. It is easy to say that the first thought should not be about the money, but come on... All I can say at my experience level is that I am convinced there is no 'boogey man' and that if you are attracted to a certain discipline, pursue it until it doesn't make sense and then suck it up and move on. The idea is not to allow yourself to get into something that is over your head, but at the same time don't avoid it until you can make an informed decision. Tandem is intense not because of the complexity of the gear but the fact that you are dealing with the general public, start to finish, completely relying on your skill. It is a different 'ballgame'


Mixoligist  (D 26787)

Apr 6, 2009, 5:51 AM
Post #73 of 88 (1945 views)
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Re: [mnskydiver688] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is it bad that I am reconsidering becoming a tandem master.

No it is good, at least you are thinking.


Personally I think there are many "tandem masters" who should reconsider what they are doing and/or hang it up.
There are very few reasons why a man or woman can't be a tandem instructor.......There are a ton of reasons why they shouldn't.

In skydiving we are ALL capable of anything....that is why we must ALL choose wisely.

I'm an asshole though so don't just listen to me.Wink


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Apr 6, 2009, 6:04 AM
Post #74 of 88 (1941 views)
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Re: [Mixoligist] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah, Yoda Bob... Love your last sentence, I thought I was the only one...Laugh


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Apr 10, 2009, 9:22 AM
Post #75 of 88 (1803 views)
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

TI / Skydivers - please think why all these "Bag Locks" were created ?

Before we move on with what the TI should do - think WHY ???

Most of any Skydiving system issues can be eliminated on the ground.

Any comments please.

Be Safe !!!


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Apr 10, 2009, 9:33 AM
Post #76 of 88 (2669 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

First thought for me is the stows must not be proper. Maybe the stows are double wrapped and the band used is too tight or maybe the stow is just to tight, maybe the stow is to long allowing the bite to be stuck.


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Apr 10, 2009, 10:39 AM
Post #77 of 88 (2663 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

I do know some TM's jumping UPT(me included) and packers use 2 tandem bands put together to make 1 longer band. This is done to make it easier to do the first 2 locking stows. These first 2 stows are very tight due to the size of the canopy and bag configuation. Using a single band and excessive bite size on the first 2 stows say 3 or more inches, may be a contributing factor. I've never come close to a bag lock maybe because of less tension on the primary stows and I never stow more than 1 1/2" interior. The 2 high speed mals I've had were slider streamers on old 421's, which is a whole different subject.


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Apr 10, 2009, 12:15 PM
Post #78 of 88 (2652 views)
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Re: [utahsteve1] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

Using 2 rubber bands to create a longer band is a big mistake & is NOT approved by UPT !!!

We jump Sigma 370 mains in the Sigma V13 tandem systems & there is NO issue to close the main D bag.

We use only the 2" X 3/4" Tandem rubber bands from UPT - works great, easy to handle & do the job just fine.

Packers have NO rights to take any action or use NON Approved packing methods like the double long bands for the D bag grommets area.

There is no problem closing the 2 center grommets on the Sigma main D bag with the UPT rubber Bands.

Yes, this kind of method might be a factor in the Bag lock mal.

Too long bites / loops might be a factor as well.

Be Safe !!!


(This post was edited by RIGGER on Apr 10, 2009, 12:18 PM)


utahsteve1  (D 10822)

Apr 10, 2009, 2:30 PM
Post #79 of 88 (2642 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Knew that would get a rise... Please, instead of dogma, add to the conversation by offering a real world suggestion as to why some have more locks than others. I know on all the rigs I've owned, a single band works fine and so does 2(the amount of usable band out of the grommet is the same, just less tension). I'm asking for real world input about these locks. Is high tension on the primary 2 stows combined with too big a stow, a viable reason we're seeing more locks? Are the bands too strong, have they changed? Tube stows used to be wrong, too. Look what comes with the rigs now.

Many years ago(late 80's early 90's) I went on a personal crusade against the long bands. They were showing up on most of the rigs where I jumped. I'd cut 'em off and get into all kinds of fights. So I took a different look and approach. I went down to RWS and had Lucky And Bobby build me 2 tandem d-bags with the 4 grommet flap extended 2" and I put them in my 2 rigs. The results were more efficient (easier) locking stows, locking stow band breakage reduced by at least 2/3 due to reduced tension. I reported the results and let it go. Never saw another set of bags like 'em. Packers loved 'em. Depending on all of the different variables when putting a 370, 340, 384, 421 in the bag, sometimes it can be a bitch at the 2 primary locking stows and so I understand using the longer band method. I do not condone it or teach it, but accept the reality of it. If a rig I jump has that configuration, I pack it. If it's a single, I pack it. Real World. I do know that higher than necessary tension at the stows can create lots of problems(breakage of the locking stows prior to extraction from the container is one that comes to mind). Should we make tandem tube stows at the grommets mandatory and solve it for good? (I'm sure that'll get a rise, can't stop stirrin'...Blush)


(This post was edited by utahsteve1 on Apr 10, 2009, 3:55 PM)


camamel  (D 333)

May 7, 2009, 11:31 AM
Post #80 of 88 (2479 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know almost everything have been said in this thread.
At my place we also have only Sigma rigs and Sigma mains as well as Micro Sigmas with 340's.We do a few thousands jumps with theses each summer.
When UPT says we can and should use tandem tube stoes for the two middle grommets we did it. But what we found last summer, most of the time after bad openings, is that tandem rubber bands were still in one of the last two outside grommets after landings!! That mean there is no way the main can go out of the bag ...clean. This kind of situation can create tension nuts as well as line over and for sure bads openings. We call UPT about that and they told us to use tubes stoes for all the 4 grummets.
When you land have a look at your outside grummets.

Richard


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Mar 23, 2010, 3:30 PM
Post #81 of 88 (2328 views)
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Re: [camamel] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Here is a nicew Sigma baglock mal, with the drogue collapsed Shocked:

http://www.youtube.com/...lcf-kll7E&fmt=18


timmyfitz  (D License)

Mar 24, 2010, 6:21 AM
Post #82 of 88 (2234 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Here is a nicew Sigma baglock mal, with the drogue collapsed Shocked:

http://www.youtube.com/...lcf-kll7E&fmt=18

At least the video guy got plenty of shots of his own hands in the video. Laugh


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Oct 22, 2010, 3:02 AM
Post #83 of 88 (2011 views)
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Re: [billbooth] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It is probably possible that a collapsed-drogue-bag-lock will not generate enough force to unstrip the RSL velcro on a Sigma.

My Infinity routes the RSL lanyard without a Velcro (the lanyard is secured by a special 'flap', which creates a 'channel', instead). Maybe this is the solution...? You can see it here:

http://velocityrigs.com/...;film=5&flmpos=3


Some scary tandem bag-lock videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5lcf-kll7E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-EJLcPjMVk


 


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Oct 22, 2010, 3:59 AM
Post #84 of 88 (1995 views)
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Re: [meakins] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I got an email stating that UPT has issued a fix for drogues that collapse too fast and have a trap door too long. The fix adds one main slink to the drogue kill line. The mod will lengthen the kill line. Which will not collapse the drogue completely, therefore increasing the drag of the drogue even when collapsed. The thought is that this should also fix the problem of risers not releasing when a bag lock is cut-away.

I recommend all users of Sigma drogues verify this information then take appropriate measures. Don't delay. Two lives could be on the line.

Mike

PS I tried to upload the Word document from UPT. Says it's too big. You should get it from UPT anyway.

I believe this is the document in question (attached).


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Oct 22, 2010, 4:00 AM)
Attachments: Lengthening the kill line in drogues.pdf (102 KB)


deadcentre  (F License)

Sep 2, 2012, 10:27 PM
Post #85 of 88 (1117 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

The solution is simple! Have the drogue collapse after the canopy is out of the bag the same as a sport rig deployment works. No more baglocks at normal deployment altitude and no more problems with risers not releasing! Problem fixed!


deadcentre  (F License)

Sep 2, 2012, 10:30 PM
Post #86 of 88 (1118 views)
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Re: [crazydiver] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

sounds like you have never had a tandem baglock.


deadcentre  (F License)

Sep 2, 2012, 10:37 PM
Post #87 of 88 (1114 views)
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Re: [weavermc] Why you need to clear risers after a Tandem Baglock Malfunction [In reply to] Can't Post

Our company made the mods with extended kill lines nearly 2 years ago and the openings are not harder infact they are generally softer because you dont have increased fall rate due to the trapdoor. Also on the same note i have done nearly 3000 tandems on systems that deploy the canopy with fully inflated drogues before they collapse and the openings are the same'


deadcentre  (F License)

Sep 2, 2012, 11:32 PM
Post #88 of 88 (1101 views)
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Re: [Laszloimage] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not the D bag that causes the bag lock its the amount of drag supplied by the drogue. The greater the drag the less chance of a baglock. A standard sigma drogue in the collapsed configuration does not have enough drag to snap the elastic bands on the mouth of the bag. (keep the drogue inflated avoid the problem)



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