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Barrel roll during track?

 

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Poll: Barrel roll during track?
Yes - usually a good idea 54 / 28%
No - usually a bad idea 115 / 61%
Other - explain 21 / 11%
190 total votes
 
jheadley  (D 28710)

Mar 1, 2007, 7:10 AM
Post #176 of 203 (869 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

We are long past the time anyone should be doing these "zoo" dives. Plan the dive, and dive the plan. If you can't then the skill level for the dive is not high enough. No matter the "zoo-y-ness", size, or complexity of the dive, everyone on the dive should know where to go on break off. If a smaller dive, all jumpers should be able to account for the position of all others prior to break off, and on larger dives there should be a break off plan discussed prior to boarding the A/C.

"Break at 5" is not good enough anymore.

Barrel Rolls while tracking waste valuable altitude and separation.

Thanks, this is what I was getting at. I'd rather just not do a zoo-dive in the first place.


trigger  (D 101390)

Mar 1, 2007, 12:23 PM
Post #177 of 203 (829 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's all well and good saying 'zoo' dives shouldn't happen,but that's the ideal world.
Fact is they do,not just at club level,but large organised boogies to.
Take Vichy, France for an example.
AN72 reatively large tailgate jet capacity for 90 or so jumpers.
Minimum 15 jumpers per group organised freefly by world renowned professional coaches,mixed ability on groups. Now what have you gotShocked


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 1, 2007, 2:17 PM
Post #178 of 203 (811 views)
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Re: [trigger] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Minimum 15 jumpers per group organised freefly by world renowned professional coaches,mixed ability on groups. Now what have you gotShocked

Maybe a safe jump, maybe an accident waiting to happen, maybe something in between. Depends on a lot of factors per group.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 1, 2007, 3:31 PM
Post #179 of 203 (802 views)
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Re: [trigger] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

So you're going to say that because of lack of prior organization and planing and insufficient skill level, those low skill jumpers should be tasked with conducting an on heading full speed track barrel roll?

I'll let the obviousness of that scenario point it's self out.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 1, 2007, 4:48 PM
Post #180 of 203 (791 views)
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Re: [trigger] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Minimum 15 jumpers per group organised freefly by world renowned
> professional coaches,mixed ability on groups. Now what have you got?

A problem waiting to happen! And the only thing worse than people doing barrel rolls on breakoff are people forced to do barrel rolls for the first time because they are breaking off in a zoo.


DougH  (D License)

Mar 1, 2007, 5:11 PM
Post #181 of 203 (785 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Zoo or not what does it matter???

You are just as likely to have some one zip under you and pitch, as your are to have some one end up over your back if your break off resembles a Latin America soccer riot.

The danger is below, every one look down!!!

What will you barrel rollers do if you see some one above? Change course? How do you know that the jumper above didn't see you and change course. Did you just track back under that high jumper? So you are going to correct, and hope for the best, or do you barrel roll again, or maybe suck it down?

If the people on your dive aren't experienced enough to do a organized break off what would you rather them concentrate on... a barrel roll, or looking down??


(This post was edited by DougH on Mar 1, 2007, 5:21 PM)


Zing  (D 6343)

Mar 1, 2007, 5:32 PM
Post #182 of 203 (781 views)
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Re: [DougH] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can just imagine the alternative out come of this scenario if we'd been barrel rolling, or checking mirrors, for that matter.
Attachments: RingAroundThePC copy.jpg (29.1 KB)


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 1, 2007, 6:31 PM
Post #183 of 203 (766 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So you're going to say that because of lack of prior organization and planing and insufficient skill level, those low skill jumpers should be tasked with conducting an on heading full speed track barrel roll?

I'll let the obviousness of that scenario point it's self out.

It would be funny Laugh if it weren't serious.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Mar 2, 2007, 2:56 AM
Post #184 of 203 (736 views)
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Re: [kallend] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

 To all the young roosters out there who think us old blokes don't really know what we're talking about, consider this....we didn't get to make thousands of jumps over many many years without learning and sticking to a few basic rules.

Especially about breakoff and tracking....

Barrel rolls were never part of the deal.....

If you think they're OK you won't be on any dive that I have anything to do with.....and if you are on the dive, I'll be the one opening furthest away, and lowest on the load.

Top rooster today.....feather duster tomorrow....


trigger  (D 101390)

Mar 2, 2007, 5:43 AM
Post #185 of 203 (718 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
So you're going to say that because of lack of prior organization and planing and insufficient skill level, those low skill jumpers should be tasked with conducting an on heading full speed track barrel roll?

No thats the job of the higher skill jumpers who kept on pace and in at the base.


2shay  (D 1)

Mar 2, 2007, 10:01 AM
Post #186 of 203 (685 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

quesiton: on big ff jumps breakoff they are taught to 180 and look behind them and track on their backs and then barrel roll later. Is this wrong? the reson for the 180 is so they don't take off into someone in their track because they don't know if anyone is behind them. ive seen video of that its not pretty.

lot me know if you could


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 2, 2007, 10:18 AM
Post #187 of 203 (680 views)
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Re: [2shay] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

>on big ff jumps breakoff they are taught to 180 and look behind them
>and track on their backs and then barrel roll later. Is this wrong?

Right and wrong are hard to apply here. If you plan a jump with barrel rolling in mind (i.e, earlier breakoffs, smaller groups) then you can barrel roll to your heart's content during breakoff. Generally the priorities in RW are maximizing freefall time and ensuring safe breakoffs, so there isn't much barrel rolling going on. But if you plan for it, it can be done safely.

The only thing that bothers me is that people see barrel rolling as increasing safety during a normal breakoff (or worse, a scary breakoff) without any additional care taken to accommodate the manuever. That's the problem. It's as if someone stated that sashaying violently on short final was safer because it allows you to look above your canopy. Violent sashays on final _can_ be done safely, if there is no one anywhere near you and you will still reach the landing area. But they are a big mistake in a crowded pattern, and are not worth the tiny additional benefit of being able to see above you.

Personally I would not track on my back during breakoff because all the things that are going to kill me soon (i.e. people deploying, errant airplanes, high canopies, the planet) are below me, and I want to be looking at those things as I approach the lowest point of my freefall. But again, if you plan for it, it's not a problem.


Ms.sofaking

Mar 2, 2007, 10:57 AM
Post #188 of 203 (673 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I would not track on my back during breakoff because all the things that are going to kill me soon (i.e. people deploying, errant airplanes, high canopies, the planet) are below me,
Quote:

With all due respect, Someone above you could also kill you if you dump underneath them.Which IMHO is the entire purpose for the barrel roll.Agreed there may be a time and place, and most certainly an experience level capable of doing it in the first place.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 2, 2007, 11:04 AM
Post #189 of 203 (671 views)
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Re: [Ms.sofaking] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

>With all due respect, Someone above you could also kill you if you dump underneath them.

Just as someone above you could kill you by hookturning into you on final. Still a bad reason to sashay on final.


yjumpinoz  (D 13167)

Mar 2, 2007, 11:43 AM
Post #190 of 203 (663 views)
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Re: [Ms.sofaking] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

That is what a quick scan above you and a good wave off are for. I would not want to be on my back when someone below me is waving off and showing pilot chute.


Ms.sofaking

Mar 2, 2007, 11:58 AM
Post #191 of 203 (659 views)
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Re: [yjumpinoz] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
That is what a quick scan above you and a good wave off are for.

If you are capable of a barrel roll in max track, wouldn't that be considered a "quick scan above you"?


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 2, 2007, 12:20 PM
Post #192 of 203 (653 views)
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Re: [Ms.sofaking] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
That is what a quick scan above you and a good wave off are for.

If you are capable of a barrel roll in max track, wouldn't that be considered a "quick scan above you"?

I think some people overestimate their ability to do an on-heading barrel roll "in max track" without compromising either heading or speed of track.


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 2, 2007, 12:30 PM
Post #193 of 203 (645 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
That is what a quick scan above you and a good wave off are for.

If you are capable of a barrel roll in max track, wouldn't that be considered a "quick scan above you"?

I think some people overestimate their ability to do an on-heading barrel roll "in max track" without compromising either heading or speed of track.

I think Rook Nelson can do it. But he doesn't do it as part of breakoff.


(This post was edited by kallend on Mar 2, 2007, 12:31 PM)


DocJames  (B 49512)

Mar 2, 2007, 4:45 PM
Post #194 of 203 (613 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Unless there is evidence and I mean proof of people doing BRs during
>a track and then colliding with another jumper then whats wrong with it?

Quote:
I've seen perhaps a dozen close calls, two collisions and one fatality from people not looking below them during breakoff. The way to solve this is to pay more attention to what is going on beneath you, not to look away during the most critical part of the breakoff.


What I was asking was were those ppl who were not looking below them doing BRs?


DocJames  (B 49512)

Mar 2, 2007, 5:01 PM
Post #195 of 203 (606 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:


Quote:
Or "sorry about that collision, I was barrel rolling and didn't see you below me."


Any proof of that? I ask cause that seems to be one of the main points if not the main point for not doing a BR during a track. Seems to me that more than likely the person who is concerned and taking the necessary steps to avoid a collision from above is also considering the airspace below before deciding to do a BR. Unless there is evidence and I mean proof of people doing BRs during a track and then colliding with another jumper then whats wrong with it? It seems to have helped quite a few people.
Well I could send you off to ask a former S&T Director of USPA to give numerous examples.
Or I could send you off to look at the fatalities over the recent years.
These examples would be more along the lines of "I was not looking where I was going" as opposed to 'I did a BR'.

The *proof* that you are seeking is that the collider did not see the collidee in time to prevent the collision.
Unfortunately, the collider and collidee almost always die in the accident or cannot remember the accident.
So there is no 'this is what I saw and what I was thinking first hand accounts'
We have to go on the 3rd person accounts.

If you can find some accident that was prevented because the *low* guy got outta the way of the *high* guy, let me see it.

.
What about video? Of the guy who does the BR and then crashes into someone..that could prove it. I just figured with so many people doing it surely there is some hard proof...I just see alot more opions than proof being given. And your asking me to take third person accounts....but there are third person account for it..so which one? And they can be found in this thread. I was just looking for some black and white proof. Anyone got video of doing a BR and seeing someone right above you?


DocJames  (B 49512)

Mar 2, 2007, 5:12 PM
Post #196 of 203 (602 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
"A driving analogy to this scheme of BR during track off is similar to checking all your mirrors before hitting the brakes. Do you know any drivers that do that?
There might be some that check the rear view mirror while applying brakes if they have to slam the brakes on and have a bit of space in front of them to avoid being rear-ended."
The driving analogy doesn't really make sense. When your driving its completely acceptable and often expected for someone to be behind you when you hit the brakes. There are multiple lanes on the highway and multiple cars PER lane heading in the SAME forward/horizontal direction. It sounds stupid to explain such basic reasoning but unlike driving it is unacceptable while tracking for jumpers to share the same direction. That direction being vertical. Cars share horizontal lanes, skydivers do not share vertical lanes. You could be right in that one shouldn't do a barrel roll during a track. I don't have the experience or knowledge to determine that but I know a bad analogy when I see one. Tracking and driving have totally different rules.


Quote:
On bigways, you track off in groups.
Sometimes there is a double layer - all headed on the same radials.
Think of two Vs one set inside the other or like this >>

Even on smaller (16-20way) camps, we teach the track off as a group method, as preparation for a 100-way or larger.

On any load, if the airspace is congested for some reason (everyone goes the same way) you can sheepdog someone in front of you. You keep slightly offset from them, so that when they flare and wave off, you can go by them, waveoff and pull off to the side and lower than them. IOW, one person clears the space for two people.

It is very important to watch the tracking leader so that you do not run into them.

Just a slight clarification:

When you BO with a >> formation, the inner wave slows a bit to give distance to the outer wave at about the midpoint of the entire track time.

When you sheepdog someone on a jungle rules dive, you do go past them and pull, offest and below.

Depending upon your reading comprehension, this may clarify things or it may muddy the waters.


.
I've never seen a road that looked like ">>". I would say more like ==.


DocJames  (B 49512)

Mar 2, 2007, 5:20 PM
Post #197 of 203 (598 views)
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Re: [shermanator] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know your preaching to me bc i have low jump numbers but i didnt say i was going to do one. But when analogies make no sense. It doesnt help the side its supposed to be proving. Just wanted to point out a flaw in reasoning and maybe move toward a solid answer to the this BR controversy


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Mar 2, 2007, 5:25 PM
Post #198 of 203 (593 views)
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Re: [DocJames] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

>> is correct. Look at the post again.

The formation is breaking off in waves of "V's" or one > behind another >, like this >>>. With a leader at the point of each "V".

Makes sense now huh?

Matt


MakeItHappen

Mar 3, 2007, 8:08 AM
Post #199 of 203 (565 views)
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Re: [DocJames] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've never seen a road that looked like ">>". I would say more like ==.

That may be because you only have a few jumps.

Attached is a picture of tracking lanes.
Two waves of jumpers are leaving a formation.
(The formation would be at the bottom - off screen.)
Each wave sets up in a V formation.
The inside wave follows the outside wave and stays relative to their tracking leader (#8).
After about half the track time, the lanes diverge and the 2nd wave allows the first wave to gain distance.

.
Attachments: trackinglanes.jpg (54.5 KB)


DocJames  (B 49512)

Mar 3, 2007, 8:32 AM
Post #200 of 203 (569 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>> is correct. Look at the post again.

Quote:
The formation is breaking off in waves of "V's" or one > behind another >, like this >>>. With a leader at the point of each "V".

Makes sense now huh?

Matt
I totally got that a formation would look like ">>" when tracking off. So again when I say "ROAD" im not talking about tracking but a road you drive on bc some thought it made sense to compare the two in an effort to make some sense of why one shouldnt do a BR while tracking. Read the posts that I replied to and then it might make sense to you.


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