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Barrel roll during track?

 

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Poll: Barrel roll during track?
Yes - usually a good idea 54 / 28%
No - usually a bad idea 115 / 61%
Other - explain 21 / 11%
190 total votes
 
DougH  (D License)

Feb 19, 2007, 2:38 PM
Post #76 of 203 (918 views)
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Re: [Pulse] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I like to do my barrel-rolls on exit!

That is a lie, I saw your other post. Tongue


(This post was edited by DougH on Feb 19, 2007, 2:39 PM)


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 19, 2007, 4:14 PM
Post #77 of 203 (896 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Your expertise on not doing things is only overriden by the
>absolute value of your intelligence

Do NOT use this forum for cute insults.

Blush I thought he would take it as a compliment. Anyay, in the case he would not, I already excused myself in advance


(This post was edited by aguila on Feb 19, 2007, 4:51 PM)


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 19, 2007, 4:21 PM
Post #78 of 203 (894 views)
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Re: [aguila] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have used the mirror and it works great. Please check this links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokol_space_suit

They call it hand wrist mirror http://www.spankysparts.com/page33.html

I have seen other skydivers using it. I really do not understand what the big deal is about it.

Hope it helps!


(This post was edited by aguila on Feb 19, 2007, 4:53 PM)


tbrown  (D 6533)

Feb 19, 2007, 4:37 PM
Post #79 of 203 (892 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

You tell 'em Jan !

Actually, no matter how hard you look over your back, you have big blind spot that you simply cannot see. especially when you get older and can't crank your head around the way you used to in years gone by. People really do have an obligation to look out for trackers below them. The low jumper gets the right of way - and it's NOT because they're half a second closer to impact than you ! It's because YOU can see them and get the hell off their back !


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 19, 2007, 4:47 PM
Post #80 of 203 (888 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Kevin, you have 3100 jumps I have just 151. I do not feel comfortable doing a barrel roll before opening.

A barrel roll could take 200 ft down and if I see any skydiver over me I will need to track fast for at least 3 seconds which means at least other 200 ft down plus another barrel roll to be sure the space above me is now clear. That all means 600 ft down and if I am opening at 3000, for my experience (just 151 jumps) I think it is not safe no matter how comfortable I feel doing it.

My mirror just takes less than a second if I am falling stable, which means just 200 ft down.

I already posted two links about it. Maybe you want to check them.


pilotdave  (D License)

Feb 19, 2007, 5:23 PM
Post #81 of 203 (892 views)
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Re: [aguila] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not that looking at a mirror is hard, it's that you're unlikely to get any useful information from it. You may have a false sense of security that the airspace above you is clear because you don't see anything in your mirror.

I wouldn't recommend a barrel roll either though. Track hard, track straight, and try to keep track of anyone that went low earlier in the skydive. If you went low, it's your job to track farther than everyone else.

Dave


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 19, 2007, 5:59 PM
Post #82 of 203 (879 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's not that looking at a mirror is hard, it's that you're unlikely to get any useful information from it.
Dave

After trying both, I found the mirror easier to use.
Please see the picture. I removed the vendor's info because I do not know if they allow it here.


(This post was edited by aguila on Feb 19, 2007, 6:24 PM)
Attachments: mirror.jpg (25.1 KB)


pilotdave  (D License)

Feb 19, 2007, 6:43 PM
Post #83 of 203 (872 views)
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Re: [aguila] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, looking in a mirror is easier than tracking really well.... I agree with you! I also agree that mirrors exist and can even be purchased over the internet. No argument there!

Dave


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 19, 2007, 7:41 PM
Post #84 of 203 (850 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes, looking in a mirror is easier than tracking really well.... I agree with you! I also agree that mirrors exist and can even be purchased over the Internet. No argument there!

Dave

OK. Now:

Your going toward the ground at 120 mph and just have 500-1000 ft to safely brake:

If you lose balance you risk your life, if you do not brake (open your canopy with no mals) you might die, if you hit someone below you, you and they might die, if someone over you hits you, you and they might die.

alternatives:

1- you keep looking where your going to so that you can see all obstacles below you. 63% now prefer it

2- You roll while tracking to look who is coming over you but stop looking where are you going to. Just 25% now think is a good idea. 63% think is a bad idea

3- same as the first alternative but you use a $6.49 wide angle wrist mirror (it is easy looking in a mirror than tracking and rolling simultaneously) that you can easily purchase over the Internet so that you can easily see simoultaneously obstacles all around you and see where are you going to. Some have not tried and think is a good idea. Some have not tried and think is a bad idea. A few use it and like it (I have seen two more skydivers using it) Why not trying it?

I should ask for a comission Wink

edit to add the last sentence


(This post was edited by aguila on Feb 19, 2007, 7:51 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 19, 2007, 7:50 PM
Post #85 of 203 (844 views)
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Re: [aguila] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Why not trying it?

Nothing wrong with trying it! However, to use it, your hands have to be in front of you, rather than behind you as they would be in a good track. So you'd have to spend an extra second (or half second) in the flareout to use it, which isn't a problem as long as you plan for it. I would also recommend you still wave and look as you would ordinarily, in case the mirror misses someone.


icevideot  (D 23833)

Feb 19, 2007, 7:50 PM
Post #86 of 203 (844 views)
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Re: [aguila] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

What percentage of the sky can that mirror see at one time?

How many seconds do you spend looking?

Do you still wave off before you deploy?

I can tell you are putting thought into your decision but personally, I agree with the others that the effort would be better spent on developing an effective and flat track. The time you spend with your hand up wouldn't count for much and if you look at it while you should be braking then you are not loosing speed effectively and risk a harder opening than necessary.
I also see the potential for a false sense of security.

It is always good to see jumpers thinking things through.

Edited to add: Billvon beat me to some of this.Tongue


(This post was edited by icevideot on Feb 19, 2007, 7:52 PM)


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 19, 2007, 8:09 PM
Post #87 of 203 (834 views)
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Re: [icevideot] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What percentage of the sky can that mirror see at one time?

It depends on the mirror. I think you should try it on the ground first

In reply to:
How many seconds do you spend looking?


It depends on you but in my case is about the same time I spend when using my car's rear view mirror (just a fraction: I drive pretty fast mainly when I am going to the airport Laugh)

In reply to:
Do you still wave off before you deploy?

Yes! I think this is a must. The mirror is just a backup device as the AA & AAD

In reply to:
I also see the potential for a false sense of security.

I agree. We always must wave off


In reply to:
Edited to add: Billvon beat me to some of this.Tongue

Tell him it was my fault! I have a guilty face Sly Just kidding Laugh


pilotdave  (D License)

Feb 19, 2007, 8:36 PM
Post #88 of 203 (827 views)
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Re: [aguila] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

One step farther? ... Smile

Dave
Attachments: trackingmirror.jpg (46.0 KB)


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 19, 2007, 8:38 PM
Post #89 of 203 (823 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Laugh


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 19, 2007, 8:49 PM
Post #90 of 203 (818 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes! IMHO I prefer tracking without rolling because I see where I am going to.

I use my mirror when flaring after tracking and just before pulling. I also use it with my canopy open before turning.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 19, 2007, 9:03 PM
Post #91 of 203 (815 views)
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Re: [aguila] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I also use it with my canopy open before turning.

Do you use it to see the ground when you're flaring your canopy?


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 19, 2007, 9:14 PM
Post #92 of 203 (813 views)
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Re: [billvon] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I also use it with my canopy open before turning.

Do you use it to see the ground when you're flaring your canopy?

sorry... i do not understand your question ....

edited to add this:

Hey! You are an excellent instructor! You made me think! I could use it when landing in very high winds (obviously: upwind) LOL Laugh LaughLaughLaughYou are great!


(This post was edited by aguila on Feb 19, 2007, 9:51 PM)


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Feb 20, 2007, 7:21 AM
Post #93 of 203 (763 views)
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Re: [aguila] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In tracking away after a jump, we are all traveling downward and, presumably, outward from some more or less central point. Since the primary direction of flight is forward and downward, that is the direction that a person can most effectively look for traffic.

The convention that has been agreed on for safety, is that the low person has the "right-of-way" and the higher person, who is looking forward and down, will maneuver to avoid them. We have agreed to trust each other to follow these guidelines to assure each other's safety. One of the things that a person is expected to be able to do in order to jump with other people is to competantly perform this action. Of course newer jumpers are not expert at this, and it is something that they need to be taught and evaluated on as part of the decision, "Should this person jump on a load with these other people?" When a new person is still learning this, the other folks on the load should know about that, so that everyone else can keep an eye on the new guy. If no one knows, or if there are a bunch of new guys, this doesn't work, and it will be an unsafe skydive.

Back to the point. If the process works properly, everyone is moving away and looking downward and avoiding the people in front of them. This involves an element of trust. It also involves an assumption of risk associated with the competance of your fellow jumpers. Skydiving has risks, and this is one of them. You can't properly do your job of looking ahead of you if you're barrell-rolling to look above you.

If you don't trust the abilities of the people you're jumping with, don't jump on that load. But don't further jeapordize others because of your lack of confidence in your fellow jumpers.

In some cases, skydiving culture has moved away from that where people knew the experience levels of newer people and where everyone helped the newer jumpers grow in their experience and expertise. It is common, now, for people to not even know each others names when they get on the plane. And keeping low-experience people off of a big group is considered discrimination and bad for their self-esteem. Low timers should work on the necessary skills one-on-one or in small groups until they are ready to assume the responsibilities (and earn the trust) required to operate in a bigger group. Remember - Just saying, "It's all Good", doesn't make it so.

Kevin K.


(This post was edited by kkeenan on Feb 20, 2007, 7:27 AM)


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Feb 20, 2007, 7:53 AM
Post #94 of 203 (750 views)
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Re: [aguila] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I use my mirror when flaring after tracking and just before pulling. I also use it with my canopy open before turning.

The problem with a hand-held mirror for these applications lies mostly in the interpretation of the images. A convex mirror shows a wide angle of the sky. This means that everything in it will appear smaller and farther, thus small things are hard to see. When tracking, if someone is behind or above you, and they are pointed directly at you, almost all you will see is the front view of their helmet. Not a big target.

I think the biggest challenge is the aiming of the mirror. On your car, you set the mirrors to a certain angle. Once you know what that angle is, then you can tell the location of an object whose reflection you are seeing. With a hand-held mirror, you don't have a set angle for the mirror. It is moving freely with your hand. If, in scanning around with the mirror, you pick up the image of another jumper, how do you know the spacial relationship of that jumper to you ? It is unlikely that you will be keeping the other jumper in view, so all you will see is a flash of something in the field of view of the mirror. So, all you know is that there is someone somewhere around you. The worst case is that they are already moving to avoid you and you make a turn that messes that up and causes a conflict. I contend that aiming a convex mirror with the back of your hand in freefall is not a reliable enough imaging system to rely on for freefall separation. It adds a needless distraction without producing a tangible benefit.

Under canopy, unlike freefall, you can look behind you without rolling over. So, clear your turns and your airspace under canopy by turning your head and looking around. Keeping head and eyes locked forward also contributes to a lot of accidents.

Kevin K.


kallend  (D 23151)

Feb 20, 2007, 9:14 AM
Post #95 of 203 (725 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I use my mirror when flaring after tracking and just before pulling. I also use it with my canopy open before turning.

The problem with a hand-held mirror for these applications lies mostly in the interpretation of the images. A convex mirror shows a wide angle of the sky. This means that everything in it will appear smaller and farther, thus small things are hard to see. When tracking, if someone is behind or above you, and they are pointed directly at you, almost all you will see is the front view of their helmet. Not a big target.

I think the biggest challenge is the aiming of the mirror. On your car, you set the mirrors to a certain angle. Once you know what that angle is, then you can tell the location of an object whose reflection you are seeing. With a hand-held mirror, you don't have a set angle for the mirror. It is moving freely with your hand. If, in scanning around with the mirror, you pick up the image of another jumper, how do you know the spacial relationship of that jumper to you ? It is unlikely that you will be keeping the other jumper in view, so all you will see is a flash of something in the field of view of the mirror. So, all you know is that there is someone somewhere around you. The worst case is that they are already moving to avoid you and you make a turn that messes that up and causes a conflict. I contend that aiming a convex mirror with the back of your hand in freefall is not a reliable enough imaging system to rely on for freefall separation. It adds a needless distraction without producing a tangible benefit.

Under canopy, unlike freefall, you can look behind you without rolling over. So, clear your turns and your airspace under canopy by turning your head and looking around. Keeping head and eyes locked forward also contributes to a lot of accidents.

Kevin K.

Could have etched into the mirrors "Caution, objects in the mirror are closer than they appear".Wink

Maybe someone will come up with a TCAS system for skydivers.

Me, I'll just track as hard and as far as I can.


dontiego  (C License)

Feb 20, 2007, 9:33 AM
Post #96 of 203 (716 views)
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Re: [kallend] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Mirrors are so 20th century...
Get a couple of these ultrasound distance sensors behind your helmet and have them beep according to the distance to obstacle!

Disclaimer: this is irony.
Actually I thought the mirror idea was also irony, but i seem to be alone of this opinion.


DJL  (C License)

Feb 20, 2007, 9:39 AM
Post #97 of 203 (712 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't because it does not offer any improvement over MY ability to turn my head and look over my shoulder.


Zing  (D 6343)

Feb 20, 2007, 11:53 AM
Post #98 of 203 (678 views)
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Re: [kallend] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

From the Para-Death Black Death Products catalog, circa "The Guy Manos Nightmare At Ghoulidge," 1989.

Other products featured were Levelidity Goggles, and Bench Goggles, aka sunglasses.
Attachments: ProximityGoggles.jpg (23.3 KB)


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 20, 2007, 6:22 PM
Post #99 of 203 (653 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The problem with a hand-held mirror for these applications lies mostly in the interpretation of the images. A convex mirror shows a wide angle of the sky. This means that everything in it will appear smaller and farther, thus small things are hard to see. When tracking, if someone is behind or above you, and they are pointed directly at you, almost all you will see is the front view of their helmet. Not a big target.

Out of curiosity... Have you tried it when skydiving?


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 6:28 PM
Post #100 of 203 (658 views)
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Re: [aguila] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Out of curiosity... Have you tried it when skydiving?

Have you ever identified anyone above you when you've used it?


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