Feb 16, 2007, 6:38 AM
Post #51 of 128
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Re: [brettski74] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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an efficient cardio-vascular system should be better at dealing with lower blood oxygen levels.
And yet, more muscular tissue will actually depleate the O2 in your blood quicker. Dont fool yourself into thinking "I'm in shape, hypoxia wont get to me".
I took this video. and I told people not to post it. I believe this conversation has happened before on these forums without the inflammatory video.
Please don't regret the taking or the posting of this video. Everyone's read, probably numerous times, about the effects of hypoxia but unless you've spent time in an altitude chamber you probably haven't actually seen how it can sneak up on people and to what degree it can affect them. Your video is a valuable tool in my opinion.
I took this video. and I told people not to post it. I believe this conversation has happened before on these forums without the inflammatory video.
You know what they say about pictures speaking 1000 words...I bet that video has done more to raise real awareness on hypoxia among the dz.com community than all the previous threads on hypoxia combined. Even if you didn't want it posted, thank you. I bet there are many people who are now for the first time thinking very seriously about what the risks on high altitude jumps are.
Feb 16, 2007, 10:15 AM
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Re: [Beerlight] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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I am interested in the NASA course. If you could post more information or where I could get more information on their classes, it would be appreciated.
I am interested in the NASA course. If you could post more information or where I could get more information on their classes, it would be appreciated.
Open the "NASA Physiological Training" pdf file which details application procedures. You'll contact the Houston Flight Standards office @ 281-929-7000 and let them know you'd like to get into an altitude chamber class with NASA. The pdf. is fairly explanatory.
Feb 16, 2007, 12:36 PM
Post #56 of 128
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Re: [brettski74] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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With regard to pre-breathing, are you actually breathing pure oxygen? For those not aware, oxygen is toxic.
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Prebreathing is with 100% oxygen. I've personally breathed pure oxygen via aviator oxygen mask for 8 hours straight on many many occasions. 4 hour prebreathe at ground level followed by 4 hours at 30,000 ft. (this was in an altitude chamber).
Medical oxygen protocols are entirely different.
And yes, breathing 100% below about 66 feet sea water pressure and you can experience oxygen toxicity quite rapidly.
Feb 16, 2007, 1:37 PM
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Re: [tvandijck] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXa4w4aYKEk
Ok, what the SHIT.
It was clear the guy stumbling around was experiencing issues within 20 seconds after the video started. He acted as if he had a very high alcohol content in his blood. Yet, at least two jumpers that I saw sat back and let him stumble to the door then fall out backwards on his back.
That is some irresponsible shit. Not only dangerous to their own lives, but the fact that they actually helped that jumper out the door is sickening.
I find myself a little pissed off after watching that video. I've had good experiences with other jumpers on the plane in the 24 jumps I've participated in so far and everyone has acted pretty mature and responsible. I have faith and trust in other jumpers due to my experiences with them to date, to see something like this makes me want me to be more cautious about who is on the plane.
Whoever that was helping that jumper out needs to be grounded for a long time and given a long speech. They were able to stand up and jump correctly out the door, but not able to see that person rolling on the floor like they were on LSD trying to get out the door was a very bad thing?
Then again, I'm one of those people that believe no matter how intoxicated you are on a substance your aware enough of your actions to prevent them and be responsible for them.
Don't get me wrong I'm also not one of those people that think we should stop skydiving, just because of the mishaps that do occur. All in all this community is more responsible and mature than any group of people I've ever met.
I'm just glad and very suprised the jumpers that did get out made it down alive.
Thank you for posting this. I was not aware of this kind of thing at all and I wanted to do a 18k jump in FL this year.
(This post was edited by chrismgtis on Feb 16, 2007, 1:47 PM)
Feb 16, 2007, 1:58 PM
Post #60 of 128
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Re: [chrismgtis] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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Then again, I'm one of those people that believe no matter how intoxicated you are on a substance your aware enough of your actions to prevent them and be responsible for them.
I don't agree with that entirely. Responsible yes, able to prevent them NO.
billvon (D 16479)
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Feb 16, 2007, 2:23 PM
Post #61 of 128
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Re: [chrismgtis] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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>Yet, at least two jumpers that I saw sat back and let him stumble to >the door then fall out backwards on his back.
Right. They were as "drunk" as he was. That's the insidious part of hypoxia - you can't fix the problem if your judgement is so impaired that you can't think straight. Often, hypoxic people will fix on one goal (i.e. getting out the door, tuning a radio, fixing a gauge) to the exclusion of all else.
One of the scariest stories I heard about hypoxia involved a pilot flying cross country alone at night. He was flying at 14,000 feet to clear some turbulence. He was going to stop enroute to refuel, but as he watched his fuel state he thought he could get to the next airport beyond that. He flew along a little longer. The fuel gauge still showed 1/4 of a tank, and he kept tapping it to see if the needle moved. It didn't. Heck, he could make it all the way home! He focused most of his attention on the fuel gauge, tapping it occasionally and watching it slowly drop.
Fortunately, at some point ATC heard something in his voice, figured out what was going on, and told him to descend immediately. He argued a bit, then descended to 8000 feet. As he descended, he realized - holy shit! I have less than 30 minutes of fuel left and I'm over unlit mountainous terrain at night! He asked for help and made it safely to an airport. Afterwards he said that everything else - the need for a 45 minute reserve at night, whether the next airport had runway lighting, his calculations for range based on headwinds - had completely left his mind. The only thing he was thinking about was that fuel gauge - and as long as it was above 0 he was fine.
The scary part was he was still functional enough to fly the airplane and use the radio. He was just hypoxic enough that flying all the way home sounded like a good idea.
>Whoever that was helping that jumper out needs to be grounded >for a long time and given a long speech.
He was no more responsible for what he was doing than the guy who couldn't stand up. Heck, the guy in the back appeared to be off O2 for longer than the guy who couldn't stand up - so it would stand to reason that he was _more_ impaired.
Feb 16, 2007, 2:28 PM
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Re: [chrismgtis] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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Whoever that was helping that jumper out needs to be grounded for a long time and given a long speech. They were able to stand up and jump correctly out the door, but not able to see that person rolling on the floor like they were on LSD
I took this video. and I told people not to post it. I believe this conversation has happened before on these forums without the inflammatory video.
Even though its not the nicest video to watch, I think this video is excactly what some people need to realise just how serious the effects of hypoxia are. As you sayd, people have talked about it more then a dozen times..but actually seeing it alerts people much more to how serious it can be..
Feb 16, 2007, 3:59 PM
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Re: [tvandijck] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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I've not read every reply to this vid yet but its scary as hell. One question that comes to my mind, well lots of questions but they are all answered, how far off the spot were the last two out of the plane? Seems to me they were in the door for a long time after the initial jumpers were out.
(This post was edited by Lastchance on Feb 16, 2007, 4:00 PM)
Feb 16, 2007, 4:38 PM
Post #65 of 128
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Re: [Lastchance] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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I've not read every reply to this vid yet but its scary as hell. One question that comes to my mind, well lots of questions but they are all answered, how far off the spot were the last two out of the plane? Seems to me they were in the door for a long time after the initial jumpers were out.
My buddy and I were the last out the door aproxamately 11 minutes after the first group left. I have no idea if I knew where we were. I don't remember leaving the plane or the first 10000 feet of freefall. my memory picks up at about 11000 feet wondering why i am on my belly in a freefly dive. the first 15 seconds or so the video is of the sun slowly spinning. we finished the dive on our feet and broke off at the planned alt. (5500). we landed about 1/4 mile away from the Landing Zone.
(This post was edited by rhanold on Feb 16, 2007, 4:39 PM)
Feb 16, 2007, 4:43 PM
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Re: [Lindercles] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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The other jumpers on the load were likely also hypoxic. Read the rest of this thread, there's some good information.
Oh, y'know, just people with significant military high-altitude experience and a few world records. What do they know?
chrismgtis, I sincerely hope you never have to face this type of situation, but if you do, I'm sure that *you* will be tough enough not to get hypoxic and won't be weak and sickening as the irresponsible people in that video.
Or maybe you can stand back and realize exactly how judgmental your post was by taking the time to learn something from the considerable amount of expertise shared in this thread.
Thanks for the reply. That video is an amazing testament to the effects of hypoxia. I'm glad it was posted and very glad that everyone came out of it alright and able to jump again. Blue Skies.
Feb 16, 2007, 5:27 PM
Post #68 of 128
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Re: [Lastchance] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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Thanks for the reply. That video is an amazing testament to the effects of hypoxia. I'm glad it was posted and very glad that everyone came out of it alright and able to jump again. Blue Skies.
Likewise. I think it was a PERFECT video to post. It ought to be mandatory viewing for safety day activities. It definitely ought to be mandatory viewing for people contemplating signing up for big-way jumps which involve flying around for extended periods (lining up planes in formation) above 13k waiting to exit.
The o2 sytem on that plane was the same kind of stuff you see on all the "civilian" high altitude jumps at boogies (minus the HALO crew at WFFC). Better for sure than the little hose stuck in your mouth or into your factory diver on World Team stuff. Again, all of those systems are crap and the people with any sense already know that.
Hell, I can't count the number of times I have seen people stumbling around in the back of CASAs at WFFC when the pilot gives extra altitude (16,000).
Feb 16, 2007, 6:06 PM
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Re: [chrismgtis] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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That is some irresponsible shit. Not only dangerous to their own lives, but the fact that they actually helped that jumper out the door is sickening.
They could easily have rationalized that he would be better off getting down to thicker air NOW, and that he was better off than staying in the plane.
The best time for others to have stepped in was early on when he was starting to lose it. By the time they were on jumprun, forget it. Just taking off the mask to put on the goggles and helmet is very taxing.
LouDiamond (D 25931)
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Feb 16, 2007, 6:07 PM
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Here are a few links to get you started on this topic. The first one explains a good deal of what goes on and then gives a link to FAA chambers. It's what'd I'd call High-alti cliff notes and is by no means exhaustive.
LouDiamond (D 25931)
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Feb 17, 2007, 8:41 AM
Post #72 of 128
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Re: [LouDiamond] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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Two additional, in depth articles can be found here. If you cannot access the articles and are asked to sign up, it is worth the 2 mins sign up to create a user name.
Feb 17, 2007, 9:22 AM
Post #73 of 128
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Re: [chrismgtis] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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chrismgtis- I'm disappointed by your response. Please read up on hypoxia and take a ride in a chamber. Hypoxia is very insidious- as it sneaks up on you, you really don't realize you're getting impaired and don't realize how badly your judgment is screwed. You may think, ya I'm feelin a little dizzy from it but no biggie. It's not like getting drunk etc! So that comparison is not valid. Sorry, but the way you ragged on the other jumpers bugged me!!! It could just as well have been you helpin that guy out the door!!!!
Feb 17, 2007, 10:31 AM
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Re: [LouDiamond] Hypoxia at 21000 ft.
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It was mentioned that the ability to see colors gets reduced. I wonder if that might be a good way to self test for hypoxia. Look at a poster with a old style TV type of color bar pattern, if the colors are clear, then OK? Of course you might just say yes to yourself no matter what.
Are there some self test methods that are commonly used?
