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Flat Vrs PRO

 

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DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jan 21, 2007, 11:33 PM
Post #26 of 59 (1557 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
has anyone tried the psycho packing method???
packing sequence looks revolutionary dude,,,,it adds another cool factor at the packing area,,,

Yes. Usually works fine. Gives better control over the lines. Makes it easier to bag new canopies. Slows down openings some, without causing closed end-cells like rolling the nose. Also makes it easier to pack a hard, long, skinny shape that catches more in the corners of the main tray than a conventional pack job which leads to line twists.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Jan 21, 2007, 11:34 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Jan 22, 2007, 6:32 AM
Post #27 of 59 (1535 views)
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Re: [aguila] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think that as the right side of the nose is folded over the left side of the nose the right cells get air before the left cells...

A flat/stack pack does not have to be done this way.

The nose can be symmetric (it can be rolled toward the center or left exposed) with the nose pointed forward.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jan 22, 2007, 9:52 AM
Post #28 of 59 (1500 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I would never PRO pack a canopy larger than 120 square feet....

Chuck

Is this a typo? Do you really mean 120 or did you mean 220?

If you ment 120 you must be REALLY short!Wink
Often (both I and the packers at my DZ) use PRO for the Tandems... no prob.

JW


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jan 22, 2007, 1:18 PM
Post #29 of 59 (1472 views)
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Re: [docwva] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Flat packing is good but it means your canopy comes out of the bag at a 90 degree angle. pro packing comes out on heading . it also takes up less room on the floor. my spectre manual recomends pro packing.

With a pro-pack, the canopy is accordioned from front to back with the l eft and right halves S-folded separately in mirror image.

With a flat pack, the canopy is accordioned from front to back with the left and right halves S-folded together.

There's no 90 degree turn.


aguila  (B 1009)

Jan 22, 2007, 6:11 PM
Post #30 of 59 (1413 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think that as the right side of the nose is folded over the left side of the nose the right cells get air before the left cells...

A flat/stack pack does not have to be done this way.

The nose can be symmetric (it can be rolled toward the center or left exposed) with the nose pointed forward.

I have not packed it like that. Does the asymmetrical deployment remain? If so the canopy will try to turn to the side with less lift


mark  (D 6108)

Jan 22, 2007, 6:35 PM
Post #31 of 59 (1404 views)
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Re: [aguila] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think that as the right side of the nose is folded over the left side of the nose the right cells get air before the left cells, producing more lift on the right side and causing a left turn. I think it would turn more if it took longer to open because the asymmetrical lift would last longer.

Odd. In the one or two thousand times I packed and jumped this way, I didn't notice any turning tendency.

But let's assume that you're thinking is correct. Would the same turning event happen if you rolled the nose on a pro-pack? Why or why not?

Also, I'm curious: most folks who claim that flat-packs have an inherent turn say that it's a 90-degree turn because of the orientation of the canopy. Is your idea that the canopy may turn more or less than 90 degrees depending on how long it takes to open?

Mark


sundevil777  (D License)

Jan 22, 2007, 8:25 PM
Post #32 of 59 (1386 views)
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Re: [aguila] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't noticed offheading openings from my version of stack packing.

First put the A line group on top of the B, then after dressing up the nose, flip the canopy (A and B line group 'stacked' at this point) back over so that the nose is pointed down, into the ground as the canopy is laid out - just like a pro pack. I then 'stack' the C and D lines, split and wrap the tail around. Not so different from a pro pack.


aguila  (B 1009)

Jan 22, 2007, 9:44 PM
Post #33 of 59 (1374 views)
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Re: [mark] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it also depends on the wing load, canopy size and shape, etc. When I jumped bigger canopies (280) I almost always noticed a slow turn to the left. When jumping 210 flat-packed I noticed the turn was faster (even cool Smile ). I found myself counteracting the turn with my body, legs and pulling the right rear riser when opening. I jumped different canopies and found the same issue.

When seeing students jumping SL I noticed a turn to the left when they exit stable.

PD publish some tips about packing their canopies and they discourage flat packing for very fast canopies and highly recommend pro packing for canopies like sabre2. There is a link here:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/pmd_faq.asp#2

It is a fact that smaller canopies react harder to asymmetrical openings.

I think the slower a flat-packed canopy opens the more it turns but the more time you have to counteract the turn.

It does not have to do with the orientation of the canopy as long as it has being correctly packed.

I just have 141 jumps and do not know much about this but my flat packed canopies almost always turned left when opening and cannot remember a right turn. Coincidence? It could be verified by flat packing with the nose to the left. I will not try it because I am sure of the left turn.

When you roll the nose when pro packing the opening is symmetrical because you roll both sides of the nose separately.

Many experienced skydivers naturally correct the turns with their body position when opening fast canopies. Maybe that is your case.

Anyway I am positive pro pack is better for smaller canopies like the sabre2 150. In my case: PD210 I love pro packing.

Now, talking about safety, I have seen 17 people with different expirence levels doing RW and some do not track before opening. That is heavy traffic and a turn like that would be very dangerous, mainly when there are fast canopies around.

IMHO, I prefer following the owner's manuals.


(This post was edited by aguila on Jan 22, 2007, 10:23 PM)


aguila  (B 1009)

Jan 22, 2007, 9:50 PM
Post #34 of 59 (1369 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you! I would like to know it when I flat packed my 280 Smile


peckerhead

Jan 22, 2007, 10:37 PM
Post #35 of 59 (1360 views)
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Re: [aguila] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

>>>"When you roll the nose when pro packing the opening is symmetrical because you roll both sides of the nose."

When you flat pack you can also roll both sides of the nose. Or, you can also roll the entire nose. You can also do this with a pro-pack.

This is an option.

I don't think you get it.

As was already mentioned earlier in this thread there is only one difference between pro packing and flat packing....

With pro packing you s-fold each side of the canopy (right and left) from nose to tail. When you flat pack you s-fold the entire canopy from nose to tail. The orientation of the canopy is exactly the same once it comes out of the bag.

It simply does not matter if you flat pack it or pro pack it. Once it comes out of the bag the canopy will not know the difference and it will open the same. It is just a different method to get it into the bag.

If you ever watch a canopy come out of a bag on video in slow motion you will know what I am talking about. It is controlled chaos at best. How the canopy is folded is not that important. The important part is the slider quartered, the stabilizers cleared, and the lines stowed properly. Every thing else is gingerbread.

Personaly if I am in a tight space I prefer to psyco pack but if I have a wide open space I flat pack because it is easier and faster for me. I don't like to pro pack really large canopies because I think it is stupid and a pain in the ass.

There is most definetly a COOLNESS factor. The old time jumpers say "wow" I thought I was the only one who still flat packs....The medium time jumpers say " dude, don't you know how to propack yet? The newtimers say " What are you doing?" Don't you know that PD says blah blah blah?

I have even had a few of the new guys think I invented something because they have never even seen a flat pack before.








aguila  (B 1009)

Jan 22, 2007, 11:23 PM
Post #36 of 59 (1357 views)
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Re: [peckerhead] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

I am sure you are right, but being pro packing so widely used during so many years, recomended by the manufacturer and providing important advantages, posibly most jumpers will stick to it for long ... and their canopies will not turn on opening, will open slower and will need less room to be packed


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jan 23, 2007, 12:26 AM
Post #37 of 59 (1348 views)
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Re: [peckerhead] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

You are right. Sometime it is really hard to pack faster using pro-pack than some old bones do in flat-pack. Cool


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Jan 23, 2007, 1:53 AM
Post #38 of 59 (1345 views)
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Re: [aguila] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am sure you are right, but being pro packing so widely used during so many years, recomended by the manufacturer and providing important advantages, posibly most jumpers will stick to it for long ... and their canopies will not turn on opening, will open slower and will need less room to be packed

Dude - you're not getting it - he's saying that flat packing is NOT going to cause a turn and is NOT going to speed up the opening.


aguila  (B 1009)

Jan 23, 2007, 8:18 AM
Post #39 of 59 (1301 views)
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Re: [mnealtx] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Dude - you're not getting it - he's saying that flat packing is NOT going to cause a turn and is NOT going to speed up the opening.

Please correct me if I am wrong: He said first: "When you flat pack you can also roll both sides of the nose." Smile

That way the canopy would not turn but most instructors do not teach it, I assume because most students would not need it for their bigger canopies that turn very slow. Maybe now, when you know several packing methods you feel comfortable doing so, but when starting you surely preffer the easiest way.

By the time the student is allowed to jump smaller canopies s/he already has an idea of how to pro pack which is one of the most popular packing methods.

Anyway, answering the original question of this thread, the recommended method for the sabre 150 is pro packing and flat packing is discouraged because of the shape of that canopy.

Please check these links

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/MainUsersManual.pdf

http://www.performancedesigns.com/pmd_faq.asp#2


Am I wrong? Tongue


(This post was edited by aguila on Jan 23, 2007, 8:24 AM)


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jan 23, 2007, 8:49 AM
Post #40 of 59 (1292 views)
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Re: [aguila] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Am I wrong? Tongue

Yeah. Notice that packing is like a religion.

You have to have:
-a special, outstanding technique
-faith in your technique
-enough effort to evangelize others to use your technique

And there are faithless people trying to prove that you are wrong, unholy and evil.

They are going to use any evil means to put Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt in your head.
They might say:
-it won't open
-it will blow up
-it will kill you
-it will kill you and others too
-it will spin up
-it will open off-heading

At last, but not least although you have done everything and anything and followed your way there can be the act of God and some unexpected might happen.

As you see packing is not about putting or stuffing anything into something. Its about a war of good and evil.


aguila  (B 1009)

Jan 23, 2007, 9:16 AM
Post #41 of 59 (1281 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah! I should have just replied: READ THE MANUAL! . . . it is online . . . Cool


highspeeddirt

Feb 7, 2007, 8:12 AM
Post #42 of 59 (1174 views)
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Re: [docwva] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

You are laboring under a misconception about flat packing the has persisted for years. Just like the one about canopies "weathervaning"


icevideot  (D 23833)

Feb 7, 2007, 1:57 PM
Post #43 of 59 (1138 views)
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Re: [aguila] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
and their canopies will not turn on opening,

CrazyDo you promise that PRO packing eliminates off heading openings?

I like pro packing because it takes less room on the floor but I can get good openings from either. I have also seen a few guys flat pack faster than I can pro pack and that is pretty quick if it needs to be.

I think it is important to find a method you are comfortable with and don't be quick to deviate from it.


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 7, 2007, 6:10 PM
Post #44 of 59 (1106 views)
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Re: [icevideot] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
and their canopies will not turn on opening,

CrazyDo you promise that PRO packing eliminates off heading openings?

Nope! I am sure many people will manage to make them turn Tongue . . . Just kidding. You know there are other factors involved


2shay  (D 1)

Feb 8, 2007, 6:43 PM
Post #45 of 59 (1036 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

i know that it depends on what type of flatpack: true flat pack or flat to pro pack, a true flat pack will have the nose pointing to the outside hence 90 degree off, if you are to take the nose and split it like you would in a flat to pro pack then it all will be the same i think flat pack can be a very subjective term just my 2 cents


2shay  (D 1)

Feb 8, 2007, 7:02 PM
Post #46 of 59 (1021 views)
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Re: [fallin] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

pro is recommended by the manufactuer and pro is more efficient for space, and time depending on who you are, might as well be as efficient as possible in my opinion. at worse, if this, or noone else's input helps call the manufacturer call and talk to isaiah at pd, he is a hell of a guy and he will steer you in the right direction guarnteed


(This post was edited by 2shay on Feb 8, 2007, 7:04 PM)


mark  (D 6108)

Feb 9, 2007, 7:16 AM
Post #47 of 59 (982 views)
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Re: [2shay] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
a true flat pack will have the nose pointing to the outside hence 90 degree off

One more time. I'll bet my thousand jumps of personal experience with flat packs against your thought experiment. A flat pack is no more likely to turn than a pro-pack. Once the canopy is out of the bag, chaotic airflow obscures any differences in folding method.

Mark


2shay  (D 1)

Feb 9, 2007, 2:46 PM
Post #48 of 59 (936 views)
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Re: [mark] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

didint say the canopy would twist or turn yes the 90 degree twist will clear when coming out of the bag im a rigger just like yourself very new one but done the course


(This post was edited by 2shay on Feb 9, 2007, 2:53 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 9, 2007, 2:57 PM
Post #49 of 59 (929 views)
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Re: [2shay] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i know that it depends on what type of flatpack: true flat pack or flat to pro pack, a true flat pack will have the nose pointing to the outside hence 90 degree off, if you are to take the nose and split it like you would in a flat to pro pack then it all will be the same i think flat pack can be a very subjective term just my 2 cents

Your use of the term, "true flat pack" is not helpful. Your definition of what is "true" won't agree with others.

What is a "flat to pro pack"? I've never heard that term.

I flat pack, with the nose facing "forward" in the same way that it does on a pro pack. I don't know why that should be considered not a "true" flat pack.


2shay  (D 1)

Feb 9, 2007, 3:07 PM
Post #50 of 59 (923 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Flat Vrs PRO [In reply to] Can't Post

if you can see it it will make sense ask you rigger to show you if they know what im talking about


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