Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig?

 

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wlie  (D 27320)

Oct 28, 2002, 1:36 PM
Post #26 of 56 (2750 views)
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Re: [highfly] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing to do with being a jumper. Kapowsin offers observation rides. Even then the observers wear one and get briefed on how to use it. They mostly wear a student rig, otherwise a pilot's rig if they sit shotgun.

I figure if the pilot's gonna bail, you might as well.


Luna  (A 43126)

Oct 28, 2002, 6:49 PM
Post #27 of 56 (2725 views)
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Re: [wlie] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Our DZ allows observers, and they do not wear rigs, even if riding up front with the pilot.


Ron

Oct 29, 2002, 9:10 AM
Post #28 of 56 (2693 views)
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Re: [Cajones] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Many years ago at the old DZ.

A guy was walking to the Cessna with his leg straps undone....B12's. If you don't know what these are, buy beer for an old guy and he will teach you.

He was to cool and groovy to actually put the rig on before getting in the plane "It's uncomfortable" he would say. The pilot told him to put his rig on as if he were ready to go out the door or he was not going to fly the load..

This guy bitched and whined, but put the rig on. He then sat behind the pilot seat, and "Ill show him" Took of his B12's.

He left the plane with his group and noticed that something was wrong. He fliped over and tried to connect his B12's....Hell he was a good jumper. He managed to connect one of his leg straps...the right one, and flip over and deploy. He did all of this by 4,000 feet. Like I said the guy was good. However he had a 180 degree twist in the leg strap. It was a ROL....If you don't know what that is....buy lots of beer. He had a pilot chute in tow. He freaked out. Started trying to swim. He hit the ground in front of his family, and a DZ full of people....

Man he did look cool going to the plane with his rig loose.
He didn't look cool dead with his rig loose....Any questons?

This is why I yell at people who are to f--king cool to have the rig on when they go to the plane.

Another thing....Be standing infront of me when the pilot yells at us to "Get the He-- out of my plane!!!" With your rig loose. I am running right over you. I am not waiting for you to do something you should have done on the ground.
Be ready to jump when you get on the plane.

Ron


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 29, 2002, 10:00 AM
Post #29 of 56 (2682 views)
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Re: [Ron] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Another thing....Be standing infront of me when the pilot yells at us
> to "Get the He-- out of my plane!!!"

True story:

Years ago I was at Perris when the old Sikorsky helicopter was there. We loaded up for a helicopter jump. Engine started, rotor began spinning up, and across the runway comes another jumper carrying his rig. He jumps in right as the helicopter takes off.

Once inside we realized he hadn't quite finished packing his rig. He closed it, started to stow the pilot chute etc as we climbed.

At 1000 feet, we heard a BANG and saw a few pieces flying away from the helicopter. The helicopter hovered for a moment then pitched over and started a rapid descent. I wasn't sure what had happened, but I was pretty sure that it couldn't be good. You can only see the pilot's feet in that helicopter, and they were quite busy. We looked at each other, not sure what to do. Do we bail out and open right away, risking hitting the rotor disc? Do we actually take a delay at 1000 feet? And do we push that guy out the door who is just now putting his rig on? (he was in the way, of course.)

We stayed put, and the pilot managed to land the helicopter in a field with minimal damage - we hit hard and crushed the tailwheel, but no one was injured. He climbed up to the engine, fiddled with it, pronounced it fixed, and offered to fly us back to the DZ. We all walked.


edenney  (D 25288)

Oct 29, 2002, 4:41 PM
Post #30 of 56 (2651 views)
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Re: [Ron] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Another thing....Be standing infront of me when the pilot yells at us to "Get the He-- out of my plane!!!" With your rig loose. I am running right over you. I am not waiting for you to do something you should have done on the ground.
Be ready to jump when you get on the plane.

Amen to that!


weezil1  (Student)

Nov 6, 2002, 1:15 AM
Post #31 of 56 (2578 views)
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Re: [Parrot] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Question - With 8 jumps, I do not consider myself a "wuffo", but am very definitelly a "Newbie". So, if any of you more experienced jumpers saw someone heading towards Earth without rigging, would you attempt to get to him? Or is that just asking to be removed from the gene pool?


verticalflyer  (D 11313)

Nov 6, 2002, 6:01 AM
Post #32 of 56 (2535 views)
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Re: [highfly] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

At the Herc Boogie I was fortunate enough to meet an american guy, cannot remember his name but could find it, who was on the very flight you are talking about.

I am not going to state the obvious but he told me the following "We did not notice anything which was kinda strange as he walked up to me and asked if I could swap seats with him, I was in the co pilot seat and I said sure, so he walked past me and previously he had not been able to sit in the copilot seat as his rig and the front mounted video recorder were too big to allow him to sit in the seat. This time however he sat down fine and we both passed as I climbed past him.
I am not making any comments but those who believe there safety are in there own hands are right however, we are humans and tend to make mistakes, thats why a back up is useful. If everything was perfect and canopies containers were perfect and your 100% why have a reserve or AAD because things happen. Thats why we look out for each other. I am all for self preservation by knowing your gear and how to fly, however at the end of the day most accidents are traced back to human error not pure equipment failure. So an extra pair of eyes looking out for you has to be a good thing.

Cheers

Fraser


jumpy  (A 8109)

Nov 6, 2002, 11:29 PM
Post #33 of 56 (2487 views)
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Re: [weezil1] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Question - With 8 jumps, I do not consider myself a "wuffo", but am very definitelly a "Newbie". So, if any of you more experienced jumpers saw someone heading towards Earth without rigging, would you attempt to get to him? Or is that just asking to be removed from the gene pool?
At terminal its almost impossible to hang onto someone during deployment. And also you'd most likely be under canopy when you noticed this leaving you helpless..Crazy


weezil1  (Student)

Nov 7, 2002, 4:09 AM
Post #34 of 56 (2478 views)
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Re: [jumpy] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

DO'H! That makes perfect sense. Still, it would be rough watching someone auger in without doing something. But at my stage of training, I am having enough trouble trying to figure out what to do with these d@mn yellow handles dangling in my face!


outofit  (Student)

Nov 7, 2002, 2:26 PM
Post #35 of 56 (2442 views)
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Re: [wlie] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

i've been on a jump plane without a rig several times but i never had any intention on jumping at the time! i have a friend who owns a dropzone and he allowed me to ride to altitude and watch as others bailed out.


wlie  (D 27320)

Nov 7, 2002, 2:49 PM
Post #36 of 56 (2433 views)
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Re: [outofit] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I bet that kind sucks, like watching your friends play but you can't.Wink


Scoby  (A 41205)

Nov 7, 2002, 9:28 PM
Post #37 of 56 (2411 views)
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Re: [outofit] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't get on a jumpship without a rig, even if I was an observer. As they say, "have you seen our airplane?" I did an observer ride once, on a Bell Jet Ranger. It was reassuring wearing a rig even then.


lummy  (A 40776)

Nov 7, 2002, 10:22 PM
Post #38 of 56 (2401 views)
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Re: [Scoby] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't it a rule or somethin that you need to wear a bail out rig if you are flying or riding co pilot? Or is that just common sense practice?


Scoby  (A 41205)

Nov 7, 2002, 11:32 PM
Post #39 of 56 (2396 views)
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Re: [lummy] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think so. I've certainly sat up front in private planes with no bail-out rig. And I've noticed that a lot of jump pilots don't wear rigs. But I certainly would rather wear a rig on a small plane.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Nov 8, 2002, 12:06 PM
Post #40 of 56 (2361 views)
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Re: [lummy] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Isn't it a rule or somethin that you need to wear a bail out rig if you are flying or riding co pilot? Or is that just common sense practice

It depends on the plane, and where you're sitting in the plane.

In the US, most cesna 182's are type-certified so that everybody (including the pilot and obverservers) must wear rigs, due to the risk of a canopy/tail entaglement.

Larger planes like Caravans, Otters, etc do not require those in "seats" to wear rigs. In an otter, if you're in the right seat you don't need one, but if you're riding in the back you do.

I would have no hesitation about flying right seat in an otter without a rig. I would never even step into a 182 jump plane without one. In a caravan or king air I probably still would want one, because it has a low wing and still has entanglement risks.

_Am


skyblade  (D 27363)

Nov 9, 2002, 11:50 AM
Post #41 of 56 (2324 views)
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Re: [jumpy] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
At terminal its almost impossible to hang onto someone during deployment.

Does anybody know of a case where this happened (at terminal) and it worked out ok?. If this happens and the person manages to hold on would it be a good idea to deploy your reserve to improve your chances on landing? Especially if you have one of those postage stamp sized canopies.

I guess maybe not, fighting a possible downplane with a guy hanging onto you (with dislocated shoulders and covering up your cutaway handle) would "complicate" the situation. Wink

Jaco


masher  (D 3806)

Nov 10, 2002, 9:19 PM
Post #42 of 56 (2289 views)
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Re: [skyblade] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

Talking about bail out rigs...

One story I've heard. At a drop zone, the skydivers like to get as many people on the plane as possible. This particular plane is rated for 10 jumpers an a pilot, but if you sqeeze up you can get 11 or 12 in. After being warned about this, the JM still got 11 jumpers in the plane. At about 4000', the pilot turned around and counted the people in the back. He proceeded to get out of his seat and clamber his way to the rear door, saying 'I've told you before, only 10 jumpers' and proceeded to jump out. Needless to say, there was a mad rush to get out the door. Unbeknowenst to everyone, the jumper behind the pilot was also a pilot and he was flying the plane. The last two jumps saw this and didn't exit. The (new) pilot setup for jump run at 10000, and they had a great jump.

They only put 10 jumpers on that plane now.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Nov 11, 2002, 7:34 AM
Post #43 of 56 (2262 views)
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Re: [masher] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I don't understand why the pilot doesn't just refuse to take off if the plane is overloaded. He's the one with the keys. If the DZ owner is allowing them to overload the plane, and the pilot needs the job, there should be a better way.
But I'll bet it was funny... Reminds me of a time when supposedly a dummy was launched out of a 182 to scare a DZ owner who thought his pretty new airplane was going to stay pretty and new with jumpers...
Wendy


pchapman  (D 1014)

Dec 9, 2002, 8:26 PM
Post #44 of 56 (2203 views)
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Re: [highfly] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I finally came across what appears to be an actual news report from the time of the well known accident. There's no proof that its an actual AP press report, but it appears authentic.

(Found at http://www.aarrgghh.com/no_way/noChute.htm)

===========

LOUISBURG, NC--An experienced parachutist filmed his
own two-mile death plunge after he fell from an airplane
while carrying a video camera but apparently without
realizing he had no parachute, investigators said Tuesday.

Officials declared the death Saturday of Ivan Lester
McGuire, 35, of Durham, an accident.

Franklin County
sheriff's Capt.
Ralph Brown said
there was no foul
play and no
indication of
suicide, although "a
man who has
jumped 800 times
ought to remember
his parachute."
"A man who
has jumped
800 times
ought to
remember his
parachute."


The videotape shows McGuire leaving the plane,
apparently without problems, Brown said. Other
parachutists then jump and free fall, but disappear when
they pop their parachutes and McGuire plunges on
toward the ground at 150 mph.

McGuire, who was carrying a video camera mounted on
his helmet, was filming a student and an instructor at
Franklin County Sports Parachute Center about 20 miles
from Raleigh.

The plane's pilot, Mark Luman, couldn't be found for
comment and had no telephone listing. Brown said the
pilot "wasn't in any position to see what happened in the
back of the plane."

The videotape showed the divers making preparations
around the plane's door; then the camera went out with
McGuire.

With the camera aimed up toward the plane, the tape
then shows the instructor and the student jump and
freefall somewhat above McGuire. The jump appeared to
be proceeding normally until the instructor and student
opened their parachutes and receded rapidly from view as
McGuire hurtled below them.

"The pictures
get to moving
real fast
because he's
approaching
the ground at
150 mph"
"It kind of appears
he reached for his
parachute and didn't
have one," Brown
said. "But the
release for his
(McGuire's)
parachute is on his
right hip, and when
that right hand goes
down, the left hand
comes forward and
it comes into camera
view."


After several seconds of jerky motion, the tape shows the
ground approaching. "Then the pictures get to moving
real fast because he's approaching the ground at 150
mph," Brown said.

McGuire's body was found in woods about 11/ 2 miles
from the airfield. Footage of the final stage of the plunge
was destroyed on impact and what tape remained had to
be spliced in places, officials said.

Brown said blood samples will show whether McGuire
had alcohol or drugs in his system and test results should
be ready in about a week.

Although an expert jumper, McGuire could have
forgotten to put on his parachute because of fatigue or
preoccupation with his video equipment, Mrs. Fayard
was quoted as saying.

A Federal Aviation Administration investigator said
Monday he was checking to see if the pilot knew whether
McGuire was wearing a parachute when he entered the
airplane, as FAA regulations require.

Sheriff Arthur Johnson said Tuesday the investigation
showed the pilot thought McGuire was wearing a
parachute. But Walter L. Riggsbee, the FAA investigator,
said the video equipment may have been mistaken for a
parachute.

Copyright Associated Press, April 5, 1988


indyz  (D 28525)

Dec 9, 2002, 9:20 PM
Post #45 of 56 (2194 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I checked Lexis/Nexis (newswire database) and found three AP stories and two UPI stories:

AP 1
AP 2
AP 3
UPI 1
UPI 2


indyz  (D 28525)

Dec 26, 2002, 11:46 PM
Post #46 of 56 (2059 views)
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Re: [indyz] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I checked Lexis/Nexis (newswire database) and found three AP stories and two UPI stories:
Crap, I didn't realize that the links wouldn't work outside of my University's network. If anybody is interested in the text of the stories, I can post them after I get back to school (second half of January). Either that or somebody with access to a Lexis/Nexis subscription, which should include just about any library or newsroom (Jessica?), could post them.

If you are interested in looking them up on Lexis/Nexis, the search terms that I used were "Ivan Lester McGuire" with the date restricted to 1988.


winsor  (D 13715)

Dec 27, 2002, 12:12 PM
Post #47 of 56 (2013 views)
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Re: [weezil1] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Question - With 8 jumps, I do not consider myself a "wuffo", but am very definitelly a "Newbie". So, if any of you more experienced jumpers saw someone heading towards Earth without rigging, would you attempt to get to him? Or is that just asking to be removed from the gene pool?

It's worth a shot, but isn't likely to work.

IIRC, a parachuteless pilot attempted a Mr. Bill with one of the jumpers after exiting an inop airplane. Though they were both holding on as best they could, opening shock separated them.


Blue skies,

Winsor


michaelbolton2

Jun 30, 2010, 9:04 PM
Post #48 of 56 (1154 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Isn't it a rule or somethin that you need to wear a bail out rig if you are flying or riding co pilot? Or is that just common sense practice

It depends on the plane, and where you're sitting in the plane.

In the US, most cesna 182's.....

_Am

FAR 91.307 c
"Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds--
1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon
2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon."

I thought this rule also applied to any aircraft whenever the door is opened in flight, but couldn't find that published anywhere.


michaelbolton2

Jun 30, 2010, 9:05 PM
Post #49 of 56 (1153 views)
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Re: [michaelbolton2] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

I came across this thread because I recently got in a plane without a rig on. I'm fairly new at camera flying (about 75 total and 20 tandem video jumps). A tandem student was already geared up when they decided they wanted video and I was asked to do it. In my rush to get ready and do the ground interview I had everything ready except my rig. I don't know how long it would've taken me to notice (hopefully I would have) but the engine was running before someone came to the plane and told me.

I know complacency can be dangerous but...talk about a wake up call.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 30, 2010, 10:23 PM
Post #50 of 56 (1127 views)
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Re: [michaelbolton2] Can you get on a jump plane and jump without a rig? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're not the first camera man to do that.Crazy


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