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D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

 

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jonstark  (D 8298)

Feb 3, 2008, 11:54 AM
Post #1676 of 1694 (7665 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] High IQ arguments vs. Low IQ arguments [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Quote:
Of yes it is. In fact, it's downright hilarious.
Why I shouldn't really laugh at someone so intellectually challenged as yourself, part of me finds it amusing...
a troll who comes in with half a brain and an oversized mouth who wants to get their rocks off by breaking up the forum.

So be it. You're laughing, but what you don't realize is that we aren't laughing with you...

Yes Virginia, we're laughing at you.
Do what you will, but I recommend you get some chromosomes while you're at it.


Ouch! That's gotta sting Huh. Jim? After all what could be more poignant and timely than this discussion. How will you go on living after such ostracism?


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Feb 3, 2008, 11:55 AM
Post #1677 of 1694 (7665 views)
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     Re: [Guru312] D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Talk about hijackings!

Don't you get the impression that this thread has been hijacked by a bunch of whuffos?

I don't do impressions, but it certainly has been hijacked by a bunch of DB Cooper conspiracy theorists.

At least, that's my theory.

One of the things I learned a LONG time ago is that it's better to give them -A- place to put it, but not to take any of it all that seriously. The issue is that it's nearly impossible to prove something didn't happen so pretty much anybody can make up anything that vaguely falls within the "lore" of the event and who's to say who is right and who is wrong.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Feb 3, 2008, 12:01 PM
Post #1678 of 1694 (7658 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Safe, if there is one thing I've learned its that the best your going to do is please 50% of people. The rest are going to think your an idiot and tell you in many different ways how they came to that conclusion.

Look at how many views this thread has got and the info that has come from it. Your playing right into Jim's hands and those like him by letting his posts cut into you. Its the internet, people like Jim troll it, spew crap and when it hits and sticks he gets a little thrill of superiority. See it for what it is, and who he is and more importantly who he is not.

I don't care who you are or what affiliations you might have.

Stop the personal attacks.

Consider this your first and last official warning. If you continue, you will be banned.

Further, everyone, if you do not want this thread trashed . . . tone it down.


(This post was edited by quade on Feb 3, 2008, 12:04 PM)


Ckret

Feb 3, 2008, 12:36 PM
Post #1679 of 1694 (7643 views)
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     Re: [quade] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

http://www.stevenrinehart.com/uploads/LarryCarrInterview.mp3


1969912

Feb 3, 2008, 12:40 PM
Post #1680 of 1694 (7637 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

clicky:

http://www.stevenrinehart.com/...rryCarrInterview.mp3


Ckret

Feb 3, 2008, 12:43 PM
Post #1681 of 1694 (7640 views)
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     Re: [quade] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

"Attacks" as in the plural? I have never attacked anyone on this thread. I agree with you, however, that things should be toned down. Thanks for your help in doing that.


377  (F 666)

Feb 3, 2008, 3:36 PM
Post #1682 of 1694 (7605 views)
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     Re: [Zing] High IQ arguments vs. Low IQ arguments [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I've been bitten on the ass by a couple of parachute harnesses.

Damn, wish I had thought of that clever (and true) reply. Good one Zing!

We need a few more laughs on this forum. The mood seems to be getting a little thick lately.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Feb 3, 2008, 3:42 PM
Post #1683 of 1694 (7602 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
"Attacks" as in the plural? I have never attacked anyone on this thread. I agree with you, however, that things should be toned down. Thanks for your help in doing that.

Go back and look at the second paragraph of the post I quoted from you.

Yes. That is what a personal attack looks like.

Please avoid them in the future.


377  (F 666)

Feb 3, 2008, 4:40 PM
Post #1684 of 1694 (7582 views)
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     Re: [377] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Radar fanatic here again, ignore if this bores you.

I have found a website, very technical, all about SAGE including posts from fighter intercept controllers, programmers, designers etc. I have reached out to these folks seeking info on what role SAGE may have played in tracking NWA 305 and vectoring F 106 interceptors from McChord's GCI/SAGE center. Will let you know if I get any useful info. I have asked about what kind of records were kept about SAGE tracking. It was a MONSTER system, used tens of thousand of VACUUM TUBES performing as digital logic elements with the world's largest digital magnetic core memory at the time. The memory may have just been for CPU computation use, not to create replayable radar track records. Will keep the forum posted on any feedback I get. We will get a lot more certainty if we learn EXACTLY where Cooper exited.


awsee1  (Student)

Feb 3, 2008, 5:33 PM
Post #1685 of 1694 (7561 views)
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     Re: [quade] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
"Attacks" as in the plural? I have never attacked anyone on this thread. I agree with you, however, that things should be toned down. Thanks for your help in doing that.

Go back and look at the second paragraph of the post I quoted from you.

Yes. That is what a personal attack looks like.

Please avoid them in the future.

Hang in there Quade. I ADMINISTER no less than 10 sites I put up myself. That's right Quade..server, site and admin...Lock stock and barrel.

You're entitled to your "opinion" but the second paragraph was third party reference plain and simple. No personal attacks in sight.

Maybe we need to move this discussion. I for one am enjoying the incredible knowledge leveraged on this site, and can't believe the censorship and abuse of "perceived" power I'm seeing on this site.

I've got to wonder if "progress" is the real problem.

Bren


377  (F 666)

Feb 3, 2008, 5:58 PM
Post #1686 of 1694 (7551 views)
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     Re: [quade] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Quade, is it fun scolding an FBI agent, and from a position of superior online power? Cut him some slack, even once more if needed. I think he got the message and his transgression was so minor.

I have gotten in FBI agent's faces, but in a very safe environment: courtroom cross examination. There the only downside was possibly pissing off a judge who saw all defendants as guilty. That kind of judge didn't really appreciate me grilling men who he considered national heroes in the fight against crime. The FBI agents (actually they were all FBI "Special Agents", never heard of one who was just an FBI Agent) generally took it stride. We both had jobs to do. City cops sometimes took it personally and gave me dirty looks or a single finger salute in the hall outside the courtroom. Never had an FBI agent do that.

I used to jump with some prosecutors at Lake Elsinore back in the 70s. Quite a few criminal defense lawyers jump. Wonder if we have any FBI agents in the skydiving ranks? There must be a few, but they don't get paid very well and skydiving is not a cheap sport if you are really active in it. Maybe they married rich and spend all weekend at the DZ using multiple rigs and paid packers. Ckret: any jumpers in your office? What do they think? Did Cooper go in with no pull or did he make it?

Lets keep this forum alive: no personal attacks. Tolerate others no matter how wacky, obsessed, inexperienced or ill informed they seem to be. Like Rodney K. said: "Can't we all just get along?"


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 3, 2008, 6:08 PM)


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Feb 3, 2008, 6:11 PM
Post #1687 of 1694 (7543 views)
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     Re: [377] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Quade, is it fun scolding an FBI agent, and from a position of superior online power?

It's neither "fun" nor "not fun", it's simply what I am supposed to do when people step over the line.

There is a fairly famous saying of nobody being above the law. I don't actually know him nor his credentials and nor do I care. Absolutely nobody in this thread is "special"; not even "Special Agents".


Ckret

Feb 3, 2008, 6:36 PM
Post #1688 of 1694 (7528 views)
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     Re: [quade] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

My position or who I am have nothing to do with it, "Jim" enters this thread and begins to fling "skreechy monkey poo" and as a moderator you nothing. He calls people kooks, idiots and a few other names and you do nothing but agree with him in one of your posts. No admonishments, no "official warning" nothing but agreement.

I then point out that Jim is acting like an internet bully looking to get a charge from people, that crosses the line with you? All of the vitrolic nonsense that has been posted here and me pointing out that Jim appears to be an internet bully gets you so worked up that I get my one and only "official warning."

I absolutely agree with you that you should keep this thread civil, so do it and you may want to start with yourself.


377  (F 666)

Feb 3, 2008, 6:37 PM
Post #1689 of 1694 (7526 views)
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     Re: [377] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

SAGE DID have film records: 35 mm film radar screen shots, one per sweep. Believe it or not they were chemically processed automatically to be shown in a big screen projector as a continuously updated slide show for a big USAF air defense radar display board. Time delay was less than 30 seconds!

This MUST have been superseded by more modern technology. SAGE was working through the early 1980s.

Here is some stuff that will amuse the techies here. It is arguably (barely) Cooper related because it is about the SAGE radar at McChord AFB. I am trying to find out more info from McChord SAGE techs who worked there in the Cooper era. Q7 was the digital computer that ran the SAGE system.

" There were also programs written to play music on the Q7. The DMC had a speaker on it, with a volume control and a switch to select one of four register bits to monitor. During normal air defense operation, the speaker was usually turned to a low level to monitor the operation of the system. The air defense program had a certain rhythm to it while cycling normally, and an experienced tech could often catch a problem early by hearing a change in the pattern. In standby mode, by toggling the register bit on and off at a defined rate, you could produce definite musical pitches through the speaker. The problem with the existing music programs was that it was a complicated process to write a program to play a tune, and each program could only play one tune. Over the course of several mid-shifts, I wrote a music interpreter, which would read a short data deck (punch cards) telling which notes to play and for how long, making it easy to program new tunes. After one productive mid-shift, the day crew arrived to hear the standby system playing "The Liberty Bell" march, with big block letters on the display scope spelling out "Monty Python's Flying Circus". I wish I had saved that program!

When McChord's Q7 was dismantled in 1983 after 25 years of operation, the crew saved a couple of pieces for me: a switch/indicator assembly from the DMC and a 64Kbit core plane from Big Mem. I've also acquired a few other parts over the years, including two PUs, some panel faceplates and a LRI test panel assembly. I have a page dedicated to my SAGE artifacts."

http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/SAGE/


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 3, 2008, 6:41 PM)


1969912

Feb 3, 2008, 6:42 PM
Post #1690 of 1694 (7517 views)
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     Re: [377] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Quote:
Radar fanatic here again, ignore if this bores you.

I have found a website, very technical, all about SAGE.....

Boring? Heck no. More please. Got a link to that site?

EDIT: Here's the link. Thanks 377.

http://ed-thelen.org/...tml#Special-Features


...and the 377 SAGE PAGE:

http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/SAGE/


(This post was edited by 1969912 on Feb 3, 2008, 7:41 PM)


377  (F 666)

Feb 3, 2008, 6:44 PM
Post #1691 of 1694 (7511 views)
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     Re: [1969912] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Quote:
Radar fanatic here again, ignore if this bores you.

I have found a website, very technical, all about SAGE.....

Boring? Heck no. More please. Got a link to that site?

http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/vs-ibm-sage.html#Special-Features


awsee1  (Student)

Feb 3, 2008, 7:09 PM
Post #1692 of 1694 (7502 views)
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     Re: [quade] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:

There is a fairly famous saying of nobody being above the law. I don't actually know him nor his credentials and nor do I care. Absolutely nobody in this thread is "special"; not even "Special Agents".

The "LAW" does not apply to this forum. Only civility and that which is accepted. I'm about to report your performance to the Administrators of this site. For the record you're only a "moderator".

Quade, you remind me of a time when all the 5th and 6th graders left the school bus. They handed the last 4th grader that guarded "orange patrol" belt, and he certainly felt he was "KING".

The difference was he was a 4th grader, and the fact that he probably had no more education than you, despite your age, is absolutely NO excuse for your actions.

Bren


(This post was edited by awsee1 on Feb 3, 2008, 8:11 PM)


377  (F 666)

Feb 3, 2008, 8:55 PM
Post #1693 of 1694 (7447 views)
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     Re: [377] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

SAGE old timers are checking in and are politely destroying my fantasy.

Early feedback is that if NWA 305 had its transponder active (a certainty) then SAGE, in its infinite computer wisdom, would display only the transponder hit and filter out the raw radar echos within the "data cell" which was about 1/8 mile wide. Cooper would only show up when he separated from the plane horizontally by more than the remaining data cell width, which would be about 1/16 mile if the transponder hit were centered in the data cell. Sweeps were slow, about 6-10 seconds per sweep (nobody is certain, but it was slow), so do the math. Cooper might have showed up for one maybe two sweeps, not much to go on. My sacred "SAGE solves Cooper mystery" scenario is unraveling fast.

SAGE did apparently have electronic recording means besides 35 mm film, but the old timers tell me that there is almost no chance of any electronic records surviving unless they were preserved during the initial case investigation.

Here is the actual quote from a SAGE expert:

"In any event, it is doubtful if digital tapes showing tracks and radar data at the direction center for that day still exist, or 35 mm film of a PPI at the radar sites or of a device called a RAPPI (Random access PPI). The large Kelvin Hughes Projector 35 mm film for the Direction Center command post display, more of a situation map, likewise is not available but it likely wouldn't show the detail needed for this process."

OK, back to the drawing board. Sigh.

The thrill of the chase... the disappointment when you see what is found. If this is what real detective work is like, I think I'll keep my day job. Carry on Ckret.


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 3, 2008, 9:24 PM)


377  (F 666)

Feb 3, 2008, 9:47 PM
Post #1694 of 1694 (7430 views)
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     Re: [377] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Cooper on a real SAGE scope.

I just knew if I searched long enough I'd find it.


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 3, 2008, 9:48 PM)
Attachments: SAGEScope showing Cooper echo.jpg (50.1 KB)


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