Forums: Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia:
D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

 

First page Previous page 1 ... 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 Next page Last page  View All

SafecrackingPLF

Feb 1, 2008, 1:30 PM
Post #1626 of 1694 (3506 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [JohnRich] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Thank you John.

One reason why I said "if he makes his way to a road" and "average" for the 10 hours would be 1 mph. I certainly don't think he's going 20 miles in 10 hours, it's 10 miles or fewer unless he finds some type of transportation.


SafecrackingPLF

Feb 1, 2008, 1:37 PM
Post #1627 of 1694 (3499 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Thank you for the post Sluggo.

I understand what you're saying.

There are still some issues that have to be resolved if Cooper does not pull or pulls a defective chute or if he loses the money mid-air. Inconsistencies in reporting can take us far, but can they take us that far?

Look at the map I posted on pg 65, just before your post... the creators of this map do show the plane going back n forth like you describe, but generally it's heading where it ought to be.

Does it look like something "assumed" or does it appear to be based on ATC?


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 1, 2008, 1:57 PM
Post #1628 of 1694 (3487 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

I can't say.

WOW! That is a very old Seattle Sectional. I assume from 1971.

I would give my left... er...ah...something valuable to see a higher resolution version of that chart (and more coverage).

Who drew the squigly lines and why, I don't know. Surely (and don't call me Shirley) there is an old, commercial pilot on these boards, I would want an "expert opinion". It would be great if the "old Fart" had flown in the Northwest. Anybody know anyone like that?

Also, I was going to say that the Portland Class C Airspace was not a factor (see attached map), but after looking at that chart, they didn't even have Class C Airspace (at Portland) at least then.

I want that chart!

Thanx,
Sluggo_Monster
Attachments: Portland Class C Inset.jpg (36.4 KB)


SafecrackingPLF

Feb 1, 2008, 2:02 PM
Post #1629 of 1694 (3485 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

So my hypothetical skit of the captain nodding off would not have been required if they were that far off course?

Seattle sectional? The map posted shows Clark/Cowlitz county... but maybe it's all one in the same?

Ckret did mention that he might post a high res of that map. 290kb scan of it would be better than a 45kb picture of it.


377  (F 666)

Feb 1, 2008, 2:38 PM
Post #1630 of 1694 (3469 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

"Now at fifteen thousand, indicated airspeed is 160knts, Fuel Flow 4000 lbs/min (???I guess??), flaps at 15 degrees, gear down condition. Will stay at Ten Thousand until he has left.
Flt Operations: Received message."

Good catch Sluggo!!! Transcription error? Makes no sense. You would have had the crew donning oxygen masks if they were at 15K unpressurized, right? The 727 cabin pressure warning horn sounds if cabin altitude exceeds 10K.

To me, it says there are LOTS of small errors in all the "facts" reported about what happened that night possibly including radar info erroneously plotted onto ground maps. We need to go back to SOURCE MATERIAL, VHF radio tapes, ATC radar tapes which should have alt reporting from NWA 305's transponder, etc. Still, cannot fathom flying above 10K at any time if a guy with a bomb tells you not to.

Fuel flow is lbs per hour most likely, not per minute. The only plane I know that could burn anywhere even close to 4000 lbs a minute was an SR 71 in full afterburner at low altitude, and it probably burned less than half that number.

Jets flying at low altitude are fuel hogs big time. There was a UAL DC 8 that crashed into the Portand Oregon suburbs flying around the area at low altitiude trying to resolve a very minor problem. By the time they were ready to make their approach to land they didnt have enough fuel to reach the airport and went down with all four engines flamed out. No post crash fire, no fuel.

I too would like to see the TTY logs and also hear the voice tapes from ATC and NWA company radio frequencies on which NWA 305 communicated. There were no RTTY sets in NWA 727s in 1971, 99.9999% sure, so any info from NWA 305 was either data from their altitude reporting transponder or VHF voice comms. I am convinced that the TTY printouts we have seen were typed by company radio operators on the ground.


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 1, 2008, 2:52 PM)


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 1, 2008, 4:04 PM
Post #1631 of 1694 (3439 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Isn't there a 100 kbyte limit on post here?

Maybe he could post it on some other site that we could retreive it from.

Or personal e-mail.

CKret, I'll PM you my personal e-mail address.

Sluggo_Monster


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 1, 2008, 4:38 PM
Post #1632 of 1694 (3430 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [377] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Quote:
I too would like to see the TTY logs and also hear the voice tapes from ATC and NWA company radio frequencies on which NWA 305 communicated. There were no RTTY sets in NWA 727s in 1971, 99.9999% sure, so any info from NWA 305 was either data from their altitude reporting transponder or VHF voice comms. I am convinced that the TTY printouts we have seen were typed by company radio operators on the ground.

So, what's your read on the ommision of the "Aft Stair Lowered" condition?

a) They just forgot to tell Flt Ops that that's how they were configured?
b) The aft stair wasn't lowered at that time?

When you factor this into the timeline, it has major implications.

Sluggo_Monster


SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Feb 1, 2008, 5:54 PM
Post #1633 of 1694 (3402 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

 
I was looking at this chart that was posted earlier of the 727's flight path. After comparing it to other sectionals and low enroute charts I can see that the plane was east of V-23 and then overshot BTG VOR before turning back toward PDX VOR. The crew was busy with a lot of other things and I can understand why their navigation was not precise.
Attachments: Cooper Route.bmp (217 KB)


SafecrackingPLF

Feb 1, 2008, 5:57 PM
Post #1634 of 1694 (3397 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [SkydiveJack] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

It *might* be slightly east of V23... but it's really tough to say.

I'm also looking at the I-5 to gauge some real locations. We need a better scan to see the streets and such.

You're still, AT BEST, looking at the farm as the landing point... and you have to get the timeline out to 8:15-8:16


SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Feb 1, 2008, 6:08 PM
Post #1635 of 1694 (3391 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

 
An interesting thing I learned yesterday was that military radar back then had no recording device. As in no tape.

I am 100% sure about this.

So if this was the track from McCord (sp?) it was hand written lat/long's by the operator as the plane was being tracked.


Guru312  (C 6814)

Feb 1, 2008, 6:10 PM
Post #1636 of 1694 (3390 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [skyjack71] D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking [In reply to]  

Talk about hijackings!

Don't you get the impression that this thread has been hijacked by a bunch of whuffos?


(This post was edited by Guru312 on Feb 1, 2008, 6:11 PM)


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 1, 2008, 6:18 PM
Post #1637 of 1694 (3383 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Guru312] D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking [In reply to]  

Quote:
Talk about hijackings!

Don't you get the impression that this thread has been hijacked by a bunch of whuffos?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mr. Guru312,

Am I to understand that you are asking us to leave?

Sluggo_Monster


Guru312  (C 6814)

Feb 1, 2008, 6:35 PM
Post #1638 of 1694 (3377 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Sluggo_Monster] D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Am I to understand that you are asking us to leave?

Absolutely not!! And I apologize if my jumper humor came across that way.

I wrote that after reading post after post by non-jumpers and thought it kind of weird for that to be the case. You guys have added quite a bit of information and reasoning to this mystery.

But you've also made some blunders which have been quite funny. As with any discipline we have our own jargon which many of the whuffos are not getting.

Please...accept my apology I meant no offense.


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 1, 2008, 6:51 PM
Post #1639 of 1694 (3371 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Guru312] D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking [In reply to]  

Apology accepted, in fact not needed.

I'm just one of those people who don't want to go where I'm not wanted.

It is all a misunderstanding.

I guess I do feel a little odd, posting so much to a site that I am not involved with. But I lurked for a while, and just couldn't hold off any longer.

And, I understand about insider humor and how it can be misunderstood. In fact, I almost got fired once for using insider humor around the un-initiated.

Janitor: Wow! That spider is huge.
Sluggo: Yeah, the radiation makes them grow large, we had one get as big as a car at NTS.

Well, the janitor quit and gave the reason as; "I'm afraid of the big spiders that are caused by the radiation".

...and... that's when the Vigoro hit the mixmaster!

Anyway, as-you-were.

Sluggo_Monster, CW

CW = Chief Whuffo


(This post was edited by Sluggo_Monster on Feb 1, 2008, 7:05 PM)


Guru312  (C 6814)

Feb 1, 2008, 8:45 PM
Post #1640 of 1694 (3340 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Sluggo_Monster] D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I'm just one of those people who don't want to go where I'm not wanted.

I wasn't addressing whether you are wanted here.


skyjack71

Feb 1, 2008, 9:21 PM
Post #1641 of 1694 (3333 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
If this were a case you had to prosecute (he lived or died) which side would you seriously want to argue? If your career depended on winning, which way would you want to argue?

With absolutely NO evidence being found in 36 yrs except for money that had to have been protected for a period of time - I say he survived, but then of course that is why I am in this forum.

Duane Weber survived and to confess - 24 yrs later. Problem is the dumb blond didn't get it. There is more to the get away than I am willing to talk about in a forum...the FBI didn't hear me out 12 yrs ago and they aren't listening now.


skyjack71

Feb 1, 2008, 10:09 PM
Post #1642 of 1694 (3326 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
The closest thing to facts we have in this case, come from Ckret (at least thats my belief). So, when the material he supplies is full of contradictions, then we might as well be speculating.

Inconsistency and error - this is why the FBI needs to go and speak to the few witnesses still alive. Right now there are only 3 besides the passengers on that plane and one of those is reportedly ill.

Tina reported that Cooper had on ankle shoes - the only ankle shoes I know of are the boots that zips up to the ankle - something Duane wore 80% of the time. Yet, the media and FBI has reportedly stated loafers. Tina was studying everything she could about this man?

She tried to make conversation if for nothing more than to alleviate her own fear - I believe there was conversation other than what has been reported.

Tina made an impression on this man he never forgot - he died holding a Statue of Mary - he was not Catholic. I have prayed that Tina would reconsider and view some photos for me privately, but she never called me again...and I did not inflict myself upon her ... my ph.# changed and is not listed under my name.


Orange1  (B License)

Feb 1, 2008, 10:34 PM
Post #1643 of 1694 (3320 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [skyjack71] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Tina reported that Cooper had on ankle shoes - the only ankle shoes I know of are the boots that zips up to the ankle - something Duane wore 80% of the time. Yet, the media and FBI has reportedly stated loafers.

I can't remember exactly where it was to go back and look - but my reading of the shoes description was loafer-type shoes that extended to the ankles.

by the way Jo thank you for taking heed of the requests re the way you post, these latest posts are much easier to read!!Smile


377  (F 666)

Feb 1, 2008, 11:02 PM
Post #1644 of 1694 (3319 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [SkydiveJack] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
An interesting thing I learned yesterday was that military radar back then had no recording device. As in no tape.

I am 100% sure about this.

So if this was the track from McCord (sp?) it was hand written lat/long's by the operator as the plane was being tracked.

Been doing a lot of reading about military air defense GCI radar in the Cooper era. Looks like tapes running at GCI stations in that era only recorded radio voice comms, not radar video. UK GCI radar in the early 70s recorded the scope on 35mm film, one frame per sweep. US likely had the same radar scope film cameras, but I have yet to find a reference that confirms it.

McChord AFB was part of the SAGE system so it got data from VERY sophisticated surveillance and height finding GCI radars located at Mt Hebo AFB in Oregon. See below:

"The US Air Force's 689th Radar Squadron was a vital air defense unit during the Cold War. The Squadron was located at Mount Hebo Air Force Station, Oregon, from October 1956 to June 1979.

The 689th Radar Squadron's long range radars were part of the Air Force Semi-Automatic Ground Environment (SAGE) computer directed system for air defense. Available Squadron electronic equipment was able to support the detection, identification, and destruction of enemy aircraft. This was accomplished by communications between the SAGE computer at McChord AFB, the radars and communications systems at Mt. Hebo, and airborne fighter-interceptor aircraft such as the supersonic F-106 Delta Dart jet.

The 689th Radar Squadron was originally assigned to the SAGE Portland Air Defense Sector at Adair Air Force Station, Oregon. Later it became part of the 25th Air Division SAGE at McChord AFB, Washington."

One thing we do know: Cooper's caper took place in view of some of the very best air defense radar in the world. Whether and how the radar display was recorded, and whether any voice tapes or screen films remain, is still an open question. The scrambling of F 106 interceptors virtually guarantees that this radar was painting NWA 305 during the hijack.


377  (F 666)

Feb 1, 2008, 11:23 PM
Post #1645 of 1694 (3314 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Guru312] D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Talk about hijackings!

Don't you get the impression that this thread has been hijacked by a bunch of whuffos?

Almost no such thing as a whuffo anymore. You have to look hard to find anyone who hasn't made a tandem jump. Keep em coming, paying three figures per jump so that we can jump for 10% of what they pay and DZs can stay solvent. You will never ever hear me badmouth tandem jumpers, even if I get bumped off a load to accommodate them.

Let's welcome everyone to the Cooper forum, whuffos, one jump wonders and seasoned jumpers alike... even the guy who has his big macho truck plastered with skydiving stickers and has only jumped once, strapped to a tandem master.


377  (F 666)

Feb 1, 2008, 11:38 PM
Post #1646 of 1694 (3310 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [377] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

more first hand info from on McChord radar and SAGE from Richard (Dick) McLaughlin's website:

"My duty at McChord was a little different as instead of radar, it was now called "SAGE" for Semi-Automatic Ground Environment. It was a 4-story building and one entire floor was computers and instead of the small radar screen, it was large and took in a 600-mile radius of McChord. The smaller radar stations such as I had been stationed at were feeding their data to SAGE so it was a consolidation effect."


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 1, 2008, 11:39 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 2, 2008, 3:46 AM
Post #1647 of 1694 (3294 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [377] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Quote:
I am beginning to think a no pull may have occured. Consider the circumstances: night, cold, high speed exit, possibly no freefall experience, unstable, unfamiliar gear, and maybe an NB6 packed so tight that a normal pull force wouldn't dislodge the pins from the cones, making him think he was pulling on the wrong piece of hardware and letting go of it

Going on the no-pull theory would there not be a significant chance that the money that was found would be contaminated with blood. I don't mean soaked in it possibly just speckles?


Orange1  (B License)

Feb 2, 2008, 4:40 AM
Post #1648 of 1694 (3289 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [nigel99] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Quote:
I am beginning to think a no pull may have occured. Consider the circumstances: night, cold, high speed exit, possibly no freefall experience, unstable, unfamiliar gear, and maybe an NB6 packed so tight that a normal pull force wouldn't dislodge the pins from the cones, making him think he was pulling on the wrong piece of hardware and letting go of it

Going on the no-pull theory would there not be a significant chance that the money that was found would be contaminated with blood. I don't mean soaked in it possibly just speckles?

Not if the relatively small amount that was found was blown away on exit, as has been speculated a # of times by jumpers who have experience with high-speed turbulent exits. Someone (SCPLF?) has speculated that the money may not all have been bundled in the same place anyway. I don't think the money that was found tells us anything except that Cooper never ended up with all of it at the end, whatever that end was.


SafecrackingPLF

Feb 2, 2008, 8:06 AM
Post #1649 of 1694 (3262 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Orange1] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Quote:
Someone (SCPLF?) has speculated that the money may not all have been bundled in the same place anyway.
I think it was skyjack71 who mentioned this. I completely 100% disagree. There's nothing to suggest that Cooper took money out of the bag to stuff his pockets before the jump. I do think it might be a possibility after the jump if he had to make his way into civilization and didn't want to draw attention to himself "hey, who's that guy wearing a trashed up business suit and carring a large money bag with SeaFirst Bank written on the side?"

Before we go any further, it's obvious to me that we need a better scan of the flight path map and we need to shore up the timeline.

Right now, it's a free for all. We can't rule out anything... the flight was too far east... the crew never reported the aft stairs down... they missed a lot of details... everything we've been told is suspect... we can't believe anything that they've said...

In other words, the investigation was botched from day one because no one knew a damn thing. All this talk about pressure bumps, oscillations, and timelines have no relevence. Captain Scott must have been drunk in those interviews where he said "pressure bump occurred at 8:11"
Well, 8:11, 8:20... what's the difference?

Meanwhile everyone on this board as well as countless investigators worked off of faulty information, no information, or shotty information at best. It's clear what happened and this story is over.

Conclusion:
Money landed in a LaCamas lake tributary or directly on the Columbia itself. It was either seperated in air or at impact. It either floated in LaCamas lake before floating down the columbia, or it sat on the beach of the Columbia for 7 years until a wind storm came along and blew it into the water, where it floated downstream and was found in Feb 1980. Vultures and other animals ate Cooper's body (but it probably wasn't the cows on that farm) which explains why no body was found.

Case closed. Good work, we can now all go home.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 2, 2008, 8:33 AM
Post #1650 of 1694 (3257 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Case closed. Good work, we can now all go home.

In reply to:

GREAT!Cool

Now on to the Lindberg kidnapping? Wink


First page Previous page 1 ... 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Skydiving History & Trivia

 


Search for (options)