Forums: Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia:
D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

 

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Ckret

Jan 2, 2008, 4:28 AM
Post #826 of 1694 (2629 views)
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     Re: [dumstuntzz] 2003 post [In reply to]  

we provided the equipment to Cooper, we knew who it came from and where it came from and what it was


Ckret

Jan 2, 2008, 4:41 AM
Post #827 of 1694 (2625 views)
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     Re: [skyjack71] 2003 post [In reply to]  

Joe, I gave you my cell phone and told you to call me anytime. I have answered every question you have asked me, if you have more call me. If you have a question I can answer from the case file about the night Cooper jumped, post it here for the group as they may have the same question.


mark  (D 6108)

Jan 2, 2008, 7:11 AM
Post #828 of 1694 (2610 views)
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     Re: [happythoughts] 2003 post [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I think the difficulty would be hanging onto your loafers at 200mph.

Do we know "loafers" as opposed to, say, "wingtips?" The one is slip-on, the other laces.

In 1971, air travel was still a dress-up occasion. Athletic shoes or boots of any kind would have been unusual, and I can see where someone would want to avoid wearing something that would call attention. Lace-up shoes would be more secure than slip-ons, without being obvious as jumping shoes. Choosing slip-ons would be an indicator of not fully grasping what was involved in making the jump.

Mark


dumstuntzz

Jan 2, 2008, 7:50 AM
Post #829 of 1694 (2600 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

CKRET, you are missing my point! the FBI should have released those serial numbers to the rigging public. you could have had all those riggers looking for the gear if it came back into use as either a reserve (26' navy conicals were VERY much in use in the sport in the 60's and 70's)or as a pilot bail out rig.riggers keep track of what they have packed including names NAMES AND ADDRESSES OF THE OWNER. IF COOPER HAD SURVIVED THE JUMP, MAYBE HE SOLD THE GEAR TO SOMEONE WHO THEN PLACED IT BACK IN SERVICE. ok, so fbi has the serial numbers.they didnt do you a bit of good cause you sat on them.doesnt matter who you got the chutes from,share the serial numbers,and mfr. so that if the equipment shows up in someone elses hands , it can be traced back to whoever it was bought from(paper trail ya know!)that trail could lead you to cooper.riggers keep their records for years ( i stuill have ALL my logbooks dating back to 1973).


BGill  (D 28834)

Jan 2, 2008, 7:58 AM
Post #830 of 1694 (2594 views)
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     Re: [dumstuntzz] rigger trail [In reply to]  

I would think it would be very poor judgment if DB had sold the gear that was provided to him. Anyone in their right mind (I guess that is questionable for this scenario) would get rid of the equipment so it would never be found and traced back. Personally, I would've burnt it. Selling it to a jumper would leave a possible connection to the crime. I highly doubt the gear was ever sold to a skydiver/pilot/etc., but I guess there is always the chance.


Orange1  (B 2638)

Jan 2, 2008, 8:51 AM
Post #831 of 1694 (2574 views)
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     Re: [BGill] rigger trail [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I would think it would be very poor judgment if DB had sold the gear that was provided to him. Anyone in their right mind (I guess that is questionable for this scenario) would get rid of the equipment so it would never be found and traced back. Personally, I would've burnt it. Selling it to a jumper would leave a possible connection to the crime. I highly doubt the gear was ever sold to a skydiver/pilot/etc., but I guess there is always the chance.

agree, especially given that if cooper survived he had $200K (less whatever was found in the river).. how much would he have made selling the gear in 1971? Hardly worth it for the risk of being traced?

And back up to (sorry forgot poster) about HALO jumps from 727s - did these jumps not involve gear? In any case, excuse any ignorance on this subject, but how different would an exit from a 727 vs a herc or dak or whatever be with gear on? My money is still on Cooper as an ex-paratrooper, who would have had (as far as i can see) the skills necessary to survive a night jump in less-than-perfect weather, into hostile terrain, with a load attached.


skyjack71

Jan 2, 2008, 9:40 AM
Post #832 of 1694 (2557 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

UnsureAs usual you do not acknowledge the questions I have asked of you.

1.Did you receive the email - the one I copied from the witness who can place Duane in Wa?
2. Why haven't you found the hotel registration I asked of the FBI for yrs.
3.Did you receive the picture of the composite and the picture of Duane I have held?
4.Are you obtaining the information you requested regarding the fingerprint situation at Jefferson on your own or do you expect me to send that to you?
5. Did you recheck Duane Criminal file?
6.Have you done anything about checking into the individuals I mentioned?
7. What is your explanation of Duane knowing the area like the back of his hand?
8.Why did the FBI deny much of Duane's background?
9. Have you ever addressed the conspiracy situation?
10. Explain why Duane was not in the Canon City prison prior to his being release on probation?
11. Why did you badger me on the phone regarding the prints - without doing your homework?
12. Why was Duane so upset about a Private Eye who was coming to the store?
13. Why have you ignored the fact that the cigarette butts are lost?
14. Why have you ignored the question about the obvious - chain of custody on the evidence?
15. Why aren't you interested in the individuals in Duane's past?
16. Are you saying I am imaging or worse - what I saw with my own eyes?
17. Why would a man threaten my life when I told him about Duane?
18. Why didn't the FBI think this man's action not a normal response?
19. Why haven't you done some other things that I prefer not to mention in the forum - such as monies paid to individuals that are trackable, unless a certain man went to a lot of trouble to conceal the identity of another?
20. Why did Duane go to such extents to obtain new Identification in 1990 - after the episode with the private detective
21. Who was he in contact with that caused him to have this fear of being discovered?

After twenty-one questions:
22. Are you sure you want me to continue with this list?

I will note that you said questions about the night of the jump, but that is not why I am here - I have few questions about that night, but a lot to contribute. My quest is about Duane and I stated that clearly in the very first post.

Please do not give me answers like the one you gave on the phone about finger prints. Your answer did not wash - and there are Documents regarding Jefferson that do support what I have told about that.

Oh Dear my poor Mouse!
Mouse had no way to run and hide - Minnie was such a character - and so dear to his heart.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Jan 2, 2008, 10:01 AM)


skyjack71

Jan 2, 2008, 10:24 AM
Post #833 of 1694 (2539 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

NOTE:

UnsureBy the WAY when the FBI posts such things as ruling out Duane Weber due to DNA in their web site and not stating that they only found particial DNA and multiple DNA on the tie - Wouldn't it be fair to state that you LOST evidence. But then you don't want the public to know that.

SmileI for one am not taking it anymore. It is time to fight for the right of disclosure. This is America the last time I looked - And with the circumstantial I have presented along witness testimony of what I saw - in a Court of Law - Duane would have been found quilty a few yrs back. And add his confess to that.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Jan 2, 2008, 10:26 AM)


SwampThing  (D License)

Jan 2, 2008, 10:35 AM
Post #834 of 1694 (2528 views)
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     Re: [low_pull1] 2003 post [In reply to]  

In reply to:
landing in a tree was half the problem:

staying warm through the night was the other problem. ive slep in 20F while only using a canopy (Dry F111). stayed toasy warm. Is it possible to stay warm in wet material from a cheapo ....i believe so but am not sure. im thinking one would be warm...but still wet.

any experience sleeping in an older wet canopy?

anyone want to try? fbi man??

Camp Fire? Angelic


jose9878  (D 14316)

Jan 2, 2008, 2:03 PM
Post #835 of 1694 (2461 views)
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     Re: [Guru312] 2003 post [In reply to]  

Quote:
Where I see the planning being less than needed is with the issue I've read here recently about DB cutting up a rig to tie the money to his body. Am I correct that the FA told of DB securing the money to his body with line from one of the rigs?

If he did, in fact, tie the money to his body, I think this was his biggest error. I've made lots of jumps with equipment of various sorts and carrying, or attempting to carry, objects in freefall.

Can someone clarify or speculate "how" he actually tied the money to himself?

In my opinion, it is NOT a trivial issue to improvise a secure method for doing this. What tools/equipment did he use? Cutting nylon cloth and suspension line is not an easy task with good scissors or a sharp-edged tool. In the galley of the aircraft, or on the floor, is not an easy place to wrap the money securely and then secure the package to his body. What was the package like and how was it secured to his body?

He knew that the aft door could be opened in flight--HALO jumps were being made by Special Forces from 727s at that time--so that's pretty easy to accomplish. What I can't visualize is how he exited.

Any non-symmetrical body position--such as he'd have if he tried to hold the package as he pulled the ripcord--is going to exacerbate the turbulence and burbles which would tug at the package.

Bottom line: I think that--if he lived--he lost the package from the aerodynamic forces that tugged at the totally improvised tie-job. Even an experienced jumper would have difficulty staying stable while contending with forces on the precious payload package. I'd guess the money was ripped from his body...and he was left with nothing but a cool story to tell.

Speculation - One method of tying the money to himself. Much slower exit and the tie job holds.

Question for Ckret - How much suspension line was missing from the reserve parachute left on the plane? Is the missing amount enough to tie the bag to himself as shown in the picture?


(This post was edited by jose9878 on Jan 2, 2008, 2:30 PM)
Attachments: Practice.jpg (110 KB)


Ckret

Jan 2, 2008, 2:56 PM
Post #836 of 1694 (2428 views)
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     Re: [jose9878] 2003 post [In reply to]  

he cut quite a bit of line, there would have been more than enough to tie the bag as shown in the picture.


grimmie  (D 18890)

Jan 2, 2008, 4:19 PM
Post #837 of 1694 (2402 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

So today I opened my local fishwrap here in Ontario, CA and about fell over! There was an API article on page 3 begging the public for help in solving the DB Cooper case.

My question to you Ckret is, beside Jo Weber's accounts, and somewhat "evidence", are there any other people in the world that think their friend or loved one was DB?

And please keep us posted if the FBI receives any tips from the newspaper article.

It seems to me a meeting with Jo and her evidence, the flight crew and a few experienced 60's/70's jumpers might shed some new light on things. What would it hurt?


winsor  (D 13715)

Jan 2, 2008, 4:55 PM
Post #838 of 1694 (2382 views)
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     Re: [skyjack71] 2003 post [In reply to]  

I have been following this for some time, and have wondered idly what is the point?

The statute of limitations had expired, so why would the author of this act not have gone public in his lifetime (assuming it is someone who survived the jump and is no longer alive)?

I would guess that the liability regarding the $200k might be a problem. The statute of limitations for civil actions differs from criminal, and may well not apply here.

In any event, it would be rather ironic if the OP was successful in demonstrating that her departed husband was, in fact, the hijacker from 1971, and thus incurred the liability that her spouse was so carerul to avoid. All the effort spent claiming ownership of the deed by proxy could be used against her.

If his estate were proven to include responsibility for the $200,000 - treated as a loan at Prime Rate - as well as all the costs incurred by Law Enforcement and the airline flight, etc., it could add up to a pretty hefty tab.

Beware the Law of Unintended Consequences.

Just a thought.


Blue skies,

Winsor


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 2, 2008, 7:47 PM
Post #839 of 1694 (2322 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

Quote:
As soon as the jet took off, almost two hours after it had landed, Cooper sent flight attendant Tina Mucklow to the cockpit and told her to stay there. She glanced back on her way out of the narrow 126-seat passenger section and thought she saw him using cord to tie something, probably the money bag, around his waist.

Less than five minutes later, Cooper began trying to open the rear stairway. Sometime around 8:05 p.m., about 30 minutes after takeoff, a cockpit warning light showed the stairway was fully extended. The pilot got on the intercom and asked, "Is everything OK back there? Anything we can do for you?" Cooper yelled, "No!" and was never heard from nor seen again.

At 8:11 p.m. the crew felt pressure bumps, which the FBI believes were caused by Cooper jumping off the ramplike stairway, forcing it to snap shut briefly before re-opening.

Cooper jumped into a storm, with air temperatures around 7 degrees below zero, strong winds and freezing rain. It wasn't until the plane landed for more fuel in Reno, with the stairway still down, that the crew and FBI knew for sure he was gone.

Authorities estimated he landed near the small community of Ariel, east of Woodland and one ridge line over from the Washougal watershed. The weather was so bad that the manhunt was delayed a few days.

I'm starting to think that the search was in the wrong area and there are a number of ways the money found it's way to the river. I say this because I'm willing to bet that in an empty 727 with 5 people on board and a full load of fuel, that if I was to stand at the end of the airstair in full gear of the day and with the weight of 200K and jump up and down on it in flight, that the pilots wouldn't feel shit on the controls that big ass heavy jet is not going to feel the weight of ONE 200 pound guy leave. Now a 40 way chunk would be a CG shift and I bet they would feel that weight shift, but not one person.

Hell he could have walked down to the bottom taken a look at the weather and stayed put for a while before exiting. Maybe while looking the 5k was dropped, or he tossed, hell maybe Jo is right and DW dug up the cash and placed the 5k in the columbia to throw off the FBI?

For all anyone knows he could have jumped out way to the south, I can't find where the plane landed later that night, but I remember reading it was here in the US. No one saw him leave, and I'm buying the bump story, he could have left over Utah or NM under better weather conditions, IMHO.


Guru312  (C 6814)

Jan 2, 2008, 7:58 PM
Post #840 of 1694 (2317 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

In reply to:
he cut quite a bit of line, there would have been more than enough to tie the bag as shown in the picture.

In my estimation, the picture shows a package wrapped with no more than one length of suspension line. Why did he cut so much more than he'd really need?

The picture shows a package wrapped in plastic...and so neatly tucked and wrapped you'd think a Hadassah lady from the mall wrapped it.

I know nothing of the size, shape and weight of $200K in $20s. Is the package in the picture realistic for the amount of money? What would a package of money in a canvas bag look like? Certainly not like that picture.

The 'size of the money' in relation to volume of the bag could make wrapping it up neatly in the confines of an airplane galley a very difficult package to wrap. Under the duress of the situation, he'd have one hell of a time wrapping the package and securing it to himself.

After wrapping it he needs to tie it onto the harness. Stuffing one end through...and pulling...and reaching... and pulling and repeating it over... and over and over. A disaster of a tie job under the best of circumstances.

The more I think about the exit, the cold, the night, the hastily wrapped package and the effect of the slipstream on him..and the package...convinces me that he lost the package.

Think about it: he and his half-ass wrapped package went from zero to terminal in about one second. As soon as he and the package were hit by the windblast he was tossed around like going over Niagra in a barrel.

The found money is the evidence. Had he lived through the jump, the freefall, the opening shock and and a frigging night-rain-trees-freezing-landing, he wouldn't be dropping a few grand here and there in hope of throwing off those searching for him. His thoughts would be on finding shelter from the elements...and staying alive.

He lost the money...and probably his life


Ckret

Jan 2, 2008, 8:26 PM
Post #841 of 1694 (2301 views)
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     Re: [stratostar] 2003 post [In reply to]  

The pressure bump was caused when the weight was removed from the airstairs and they slammed back up into the aircraft. This caused a sudden pressure wave much like slamming a car door. the air stairs are gravity operated, as Cooper walked further down they lowered but would not lock, when he jumped and the weight was removed they slammed back up.

This was recreated with the help of the Air Force and the sudden removal of weight from the end of the airstairs was the only way the pressure bump could be re-created.


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 2, 2008, 8:33 PM
Post #842 of 1694 (2297 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

I see, was the USAF test done in flight and with a jumper leaving the AC?


SwampThing  (D License)

Jan 2, 2008, 9:17 PM
Post #843 of 1694 (2277 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

In reply to:
The pressure bump was caused when the weight was removed from the airstairs and they slammed back up into the aircraft. This caused a sudden pressure wave much like slamming a car door. the air stairs are gravity operated, as Cooper walked further down they lowered but would not lock, when he jumped and the weight was removed they slammed back up.

This was recreated with the help of the Air Force and the sudden removal of weight from the end of the airstairs was the only way the pressure bump could be re-created.


Somebody call Myth-busters and do a re-enactment! Cool


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 2, 2008, 10:22 PM
Post #844 of 1694 (2260 views)
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     Re: [SwampThing] 2003 post [In reply to]  

I got the rigs anyone want put up 200k, I do it, but if I live I get to keep the cash!


Muffy  (A License)

Jan 2, 2008, 10:35 PM
Post #845 of 1694 (2256 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

What is all this in the papers about his reserve chute being sewn shut.

Wikipedia: "Authorities inadvertently supplied Cooper with a "dummy" reserve chute"

FBI: "He also missed that his reserve chute was only for training and had been sewn shutŚsomething a skilled skydiver would have checked"


skyjack71

Jan 2, 2008, 11:28 PM
Post #846 of 1694 (2247 views)
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     Re: [skyjack71] 2003 post [In reply to]  

I made this post a couple of pages ago: Yet, the question of his tying the package to him goes on and on. I am going to shorten it.

Would someone please give me some feed back as the the FBI has ignored the things too long.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The below are from unrelated conversations in the past with Duane and/or something he did under another circumstance.

1. Talked about how to tie a package to one's self without fear of loosing it in "water"...he showed me a knot that would allow you to release the package so it would not pull you under and yet keep it close enough for maneuvering and that properly encased also lent itself as a buoy.

2. He was a master of knots. Close enough to hold, but able to release if necessary. He would have had another wrapper for the package (probably waterproof) fit easily in the briefcase. The briefcase -he would not leave it because of prints. A fact that may substantiate the other unusual clip in his belongings - remember that I describe two items.

3. How he exited the plane? Experiments with the Boeing (which Duane was aware of - remember Duane's brother was a consultant for the army for Boeing) was to back down the aftstairs to the very end and to drop off. Packages were dropped in this manner - they were not pitched out but slid down the aftstairs and then release. The other reason doesn;t count it was just a dream.

4. Packing a lot in small packages - I am sure he utilized all available. He would have quessed they might not deliver the package as requested.He would have utilized that dummy pack for parts or had clips with him or removed them from the other chute to secure it to himself. The money he pulled out to give Tina - he would have stuffed in his pockets and would have stuffed other pockets also...hence why some of the money was found if he did not put it there himself in 1979.

5. There were two different types of container after he died. One I still have - is a flat dark tan heavy bag about 12 x 9 with a spring like closure - what I thought to be used by a clerk to take money to a bank from a business. The other one was a small canvas bag with a handle and could be collapsed to almost nothing (had leather straps for attaching to something else...A very sturdy bag.)I mentioned these to the FBI yrs ago. Both bags would have fit inside of the briefcase behind the upper flap and would not have been seen.

6. I have asked the FBI if they had the cords that were cut - if so I have the knife that would have been use. Can't they match cut ends of cords with the knife that cut them?

Sorry about having to be redundant. P.S. sometimes they stuff the dummy chutes with anthing they have around - like unrepairable chutes. Wonder what Cossey packed in that dummy?


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Jan 2, 2008, 11:36 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 3, 2008, 12:03 AM
Post #847 of 1694 (2241 views)
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     Re: [skyjack71] 2003 post [In reply to]  

Quote:
Can't they match cut ends of cords with the knife that cut them?

There's a large difference between what is done on CSI and what can be done in real life.


skyjack71

Jan 3, 2008, 1:14 AM
Post #848 of 1694 (2233 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Joe, I gave you my cell phone and told you to call me anytime. I have answered every question you have asked me, if you have more call me. If you have a question I can answer from the case file about the night Cooper jumped, post it here for the group as they may have the same question.

TongueMy name is Jo without the extra digit. My questions are not about the Night Cooper jumped and you have not answered my questions or addressed the specific things I point out in this forum and have pointed out to the FBI since 1996.

The most important question I presented to you was not answered - you badgered me - I told you I was not feeling well more than once in the phone call - you kept on about one subject you had NOT researched...if you had then you would have known I was right. I cannot be sure that Duane was one of the individuals who did this thing in Jefferson - but it DID OCCUR and YOU need know your facts before taking a stand.

How many times do I have to ask about the hotel registration? I sent you an email the night clerk sent me from China - as that is were he is now. He has an ex-wife that stands by his story, when she has NO reason to do so - 36 yrs later. This is the one witness who sought me out who was not a fraud....what is the FBI doing waiting for him to die too?

This case is 36 yrs old and I contacted the FBI in 1996 to be laughed at and ridiculed. The FBI sat on everything I told them and one by one individuals have died.

SmileEveryone understands why I am angry and why I am pushing will all the strength I can muster - The lack-a-dazical attitude of the FBI leads me to believe that the conspiracy theory wasn't just a tale.

You claim to be interested in solving this - and you are here looking for leads - WELL...Why would anyone want to come forward? Look how I have been ignored by you and the other 2 agents I had to deal with. The exception has been Ralph Himmelsbach who is retired - and unable to help me. He has always been a kind gentleman and not a judgmental XXXXX..

FACE it after 36 yrs there is no one to come forward. Since 1996 when I first contacted the FBI - 9 (NINE) of the individuals who could have been of assistance have died. I don't know who is left that would be credibile. All you are doing is opening the door to every Kook or excon out there who wants his 15 minutes of fame and I got a list several pages long of those over the past 13 yrs. It is time consuming to pick out the cons from a real tip.......that is the hardest and most consuming task. SmileI could only wish I had been drawing a salary from our already financially stressed American government doing what my gut told me had to be done.

With all of that said - you nor the FBI want this case solved. Maybe the conspiracy theory is the right one.

Poor Mouse - he really tried to do what was right, but he waited too late. Oh but what about Minnie - he prayed - Would she know when to get off the Trolley.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Jan 3, 2008, 1:34 AM)


skyjack71

Jan 3, 2008, 1:41 AM
Post #849 of 1694 (2225 views)
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     Re: [stratostar] 2003 post [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I see, was the USAF test done in flight and with a jumper leaving the AC?

No it was done without a jumper (I believe they used a sled) - the insurance company felt it too risky.


skyjack71

Jan 3, 2008, 1:43 AM
Post #850 of 1694 (2223 views)
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     Re: [Muffy] 2003 post [In reply to]  

In reply to:

FBI: "He also missed that his reserve chute was only for training and had been sewn shutŚsomething a skilled skydiver would have checked"

He didn't miss it - he used what was in it.


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