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D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

 

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SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Dec 17, 2007, 7:56 PM
Post #726 of 1694 (2941 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Front Chute Dilemma [In reply to]  

In reply to:
So he tried to stuff the front pack that he already tore open... now that makes some sense. I'm perplexed that he doesn't figure out the dummy chute is sewn shut and probably less work to stuff it full of cash.

I want to clarify something. The chest mounted training reserves used back in the day were not sewn shut. The container had a ripcord that could be pulled and inside the container was usually about a ten foot section of a sleeve that was stuffed with some soft material and sewn shut. This represented the reserve parachute. Then there was a handful of lines sewn to one end of this representative parachute and they attached to the risers or were sewn into the container. The instructor could quickly stow this stuff back inside the container and re-install the ripcord. These devices were normally soft and squishy because they didn't really fill the whole container and made it easier to quickly close it.

They were normally well marked as a training device not to be used for jumping and if you compared it to a real reserve container you could at least tell that they were different in bulk.

Ckret just said Cooper tried to put the money in the good reserve container. This bit of information has me confused, again!

But he didn't answer my question asking if the dummy reserve was found in the aircraft or not. Any gear missing from the plane could have been thrown out as a decoy and wasn't necessarily carried or worn by Cooper when he jumped.


SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Dec 17, 2007, 8:02 PM
Post #727 of 1694 (2938 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Cossey actually packed all four chutes, the two back pack chutes were sold or given to the individual who sent them in the cab to Boeing field. Cossey also packed the reserve chutes, but they were provided not by Cossey but the owner of Issaquah Sky Sports. Cossey discovered the mistake later on.

You say he packed all four chutes.

Am I correct with the understanding that one of the reserves was a training reserve?

Because basically there really isn't a parachute in there and it is closed up by anyone involved with training at the DZ. So if you are using the word "packed" or "packing" in regard to this particular container you might have a misconception about what it actually is. See my previous post.


NickDG  (D 8904)

Dec 17, 2007, 8:47 PM
Post #728 of 1694 (2929 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

The big question, and the one we "might" be able answer if we put our heads together, is what kind of jumper was DB Cooper?

1. Non-Jumper?
2. Experienced Military Jumper?
3. Experienced Smoke Jumper?
4. Experienced Sport Jumper?

First let's look at the "experience" aspect of military and smoke jumpers.

What is an "experienced" smoke or military jumper exactly - and what kind of experience is it? If talking about your standard issue military or smoke jumpers, either one having 50 jumps would be considered very experienced. Military jumpers might average one currency jump a month, maybe, and smoke jumpers probably the same (during the fire season) not counting actual fire jumps.

So even the most experienced of them arent all that experienced in a "sport" frame of reference. And all the jumps they make are static line jumps under the supervision of a Jumpmaster. But they both would be experienced enough to know that a freefall jump is a whole different kettle of fish. And I doubt either would try it other than to do maybe a hop and pop.

But both would know enough about rough landings under big rounds not to want to try it on the smaller canopies Cooper had, at night, and over that terrain. And I would imagine a smoke jumper would have felt almost naked without the usual protective gear they wear. Also military jumpers make only a few night jumps outside of actual combat jumps, and I doubt if smoke jumpers ever jump at night.

No, I don't think Cooper was either of those two types.

How about a non-jumper?

It's too beyond the pale to even contemplate. It's not a thing a non-jumper would want to even try. Walk into a bank with a note and a gun, sure, jump out of a plane, forget about it. As Instructors we know how hard it is sometimes to get people who want to jump to jump. And never mind he wouldn't have had a clue about the gear. No, not a wuffoe.

Experienced sport jumper?

The biggest argument against this (I believe) is an experienced jumper would have brought his own gear aboard in a kit bag. Or, at the very least, would have been much more specific in the type of gear he asked for.

So what does that leave us with?

I think Copper had just enough jumps to be dangerous and we all know that type. He was someone with just enough jumps to do it, but not enough jumps to know how stupid his plan was.

I'd look for a military or smoke jumper who washed out after only a few jumps, or a student sport jumper who got the "bowling speech" around the time of his first freefall.

Being kicked off the DZ, or washed out of airborne or smoke jumper status can create a disgruntled type with something to prove.

"I'll show them I can jump . . .

NickD Smile


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Dec 17, 2007, 9:09 PM
Post #729 of 1694 (2924 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

Hi Ckret,

Quote:
the owner of Issaquah Sky Sports

Just to keep everything factual; Issaquah Sky Sports was a club operation. All members were owners. It was not 'owned' by any one person.

Lynn Emerich ( RIP ) was the club Treasurer, collected the money, paid the bills and held the lease on the airport.

JerryBaumchen


skyjack71

Dec 18, 2007, 12:10 AM
Post #730 of 1694 (2901 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Cossey actually packed all four chutes, the two back pack chutes were sold or given to the individual who sent them in the cab to Boeing field. Cossey also packed the reserve chutes, but they were provided not by Cossey but the owner of Issaquah Sky Sports. Cossey discovered the mistake later on.

You had better go back and get your story straight. Cossey had the two rigs and the front packs came from another source . Cossey did NOT pack all four items. If Cossey was to read this he would have your XXX. HAVE YOU EVER TALKED TO COSSEY? - well I have. And you better not get in his face.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Dec 18, 2007, 12:19 AM)


skyjack71

Dec 18, 2007, 1:43 AM
Post #731 of 1694 (2893 views)
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     Re: [Zing] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

In reply to:
An NB6 is a pilot/crewmember emergency rig. They don't have front mount D-rings. Unless the harness has been modified for sport parachuting use that requires both a main and a reserve parachute, there is no reason to install the front mount attachment points.
The emergency rigs for some crew members and pilots were a harness worn by the person that has no backpack containing a parachute. If the need to jump arises, the person must locate the chest pack parachute and attach it to the D-rings on the front of the harness.
Some cockpits and crew member stations did not have enough room for a person to occupy the station with either a backpack style emergency rig or the chest pack in place.


GUYS! let me interrupt.
Smile I have actual pictures of the chutes used by Cooper sent to me by Cossey. This is three pages of chutes and I asked him not to tell me which one was used. If we know which one it is - with the picture this would clear all of this up.

TongueCossey sent me an email asking me to remove him from my files. I don't have to be told more than once. If anyone is on friendly terms with him maybe he can bring this part of the conversation to an end. I have his adress and phone numbers, but would never divulge them in the forum.

LaughBest IDEA is for the FBI agent to go talk to Cossey himself - because he can't seem to get it right. Two posts stating two different things regarding the same item. One of the posts was to me.

FrownBy the way CKRET you chose only to answer that one question and gave me a wrong answer? WHY? I have been screaming for yrs for the FBI to check the files at McNeil, SanQuentin, Folsom and Canon City - regarding the programs about smoke jumpers and if Duane participated. Duane told me he had ranger training - I thought he was talking about the army - but that could also be forestry.

MadMcNeil - Received on Feb 1945, but his crime was in SanFrancisco, Ca. - his family was living in Montebello. He is release on Jul 19, 1946. They also show a birthdate of 1920, but birth certificate shows 1924 and the family claimed he was born in 1925. His discharge is shown as Conditional. The archivist was not able to tell us his work detail. The prison destroyed the inmate files 30 yrs after the expiration of the sentence. McNeils history shows they used prisoners in to fight fires because all our man power was overseas in the war.

MadThe only thing I have been able to find on my own is that programs existed during the time Duane was a resident at the following prisons. In 1951 Duane is in SanQuentin and then transferred to Folsom in 1955 and then paroled in 1957 with a full discharge in 1959. According to that record he had a scar on on the back of his right index finger, a cut on his upper left arm and tattoos - right forearm -heart, horsehoe with names in it (he must have altered that somehow because it was different when I met him).

MadThey also state that he had on his left upper arm a tattoo with an Anchor - "Dusty" and "USN 41V " with the anchor. There are words like Soledad, SQPV WNT@CIM and HC29B. Other codings are TFA,
Tm.GPTD,

MadThen I have papers that show he was in Canon City from 1960 until 1962 -Jun 16 - and worked as a Office Clerk, BUT a big Problem with that - he is known to be in Miami prior to June 16 of 1962. Duh, explain that. He is shown to be on Parole until Nov. 16, 1964 - it has always been my understanding that you have to stay in the area until being released from parole. Staring in 1962 he resided in the Ks and Mn area during those yrs working for Pyramid Life Insurance as John C. Collins (by the way Pyramid carried the insurance policy for NorthWestern). I keep having to repeat myself on that subject.

The information you have just been provided was the obtained by an investigative journalist - Doug Pasternak and myself.

LaughCoolSlyNow, you find out what he did in McNeil, SanQuentin and Folsom. You NEED to find out his assignments in Jefferson BEFORE those are destroyed. 1 will get you 10 that he worked as a Office Clerk at Jefferson. This is what his wife of the time claimed.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Dec 18, 2007, 1:50 AM)


Ckret

Dec 18, 2007, 4:23 AM
Post #732 of 1694 (2879 views)
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     Re: [JerryBaumchen] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

Thanks for clearing that up, and (according to the reports in the file) it was Emerich who gave out the chest chutes.


Ckret

Dec 18, 2007, 4:26 AM
Post #733 of 1694 (2878 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveJack] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

According to Cossey's interview he said the dummy contained a white canopy.


Ckret

Dec 18, 2007, 4:28 AM
Post #734 of 1694 (2877 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveJack] Front Chute Dilemma [In reply to]  

The good reserve he tore apart was found on the aircraft along with another back pack. The dummy reserve was not found.


Ckret

Dec 18, 2007, 4:39 AM
Post #735 of 1694 (2876 views)
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     Re: [skyjack71] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

Jo, I can only provide information available to me from the reports in the case files. Those reports state Cossey packed all four chutes, in fact the recovered chutes have his seal on them. Since the reserves and back pack's were delivered from two different places and the recovered chutes had Cossey's seal and his statement says he packed them, I can only report to you that he packed all four.

If you have documents that state otherwise please forward them to me.


(This post was edited by Ckret on Dec 18, 2007, 4:42 AM)


Ckret

Dec 18, 2007, 4:46 AM
Post #736 of 1694 (2872 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregonian/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/119588193341980.xml&coll=7

This is the best piece to date on what I am trying to accomplish.


labrys  (D 29848)

Dec 18, 2007, 5:16 AM
Post #737 of 1694 (2869 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

http://www.oregonlive.com/...41980.xml&coll=7


SafecrackingPLF

Dec 18, 2007, 7:32 AM
Post #738 of 1694 (2839 views)
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     Re: [NickDG] What type of Jumper [In reply to]  

Great Post NickDG!

I think you're right about an experienced jumper wanting either his own gear or specified gear. McCoy, for example, brought his own gear.

Speaking of McCoy, Ckret, I agree with your conclusion for different reasons. From what I've read his alibi for Thanksgiving was weak. Still, he does not match the description including his age, he's far too experienced to fit the profile, and he has different signatures to the crime (such as growing out his facial hair before the jump and then shaving it afterwards). In the McCoy book though, it has a brief description of the indictment against Cooper where it describes side burns... Ckret, what information are you aware of regarding sideburns on Cooper?

NickDG, going off of what you've posted... that Cooper obviously knew something about skydiving but wasn't all that experienced, does that support how he specifically said not to get the chutes from McCord? Personally, I would say yes because he might have known he needed something good for freefalling... and if he needed something good for freefalling, then my theory about Cooper wanting to jump right at take off near SeaTac would be totally incorrect (yes?). Plus, Cooper jumping right away would make it easy to be seen and subsequently caught.

Maybe the idea that Cooper wanted to jump in the SeaTac area just doesn't hold water given what we know... Cooper asked the chutes NOT come from McCord, and if he did jump at low alt right upon take off, there was good odds someone would have seen him. Maybe Cooper wanted to jump in SW washington all along??


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Dec 18, 2007, 7:33 AM)


Ckret

Dec 18, 2007, 8:03 AM
Post #739 of 1694 (2828 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] What type of Jumper [In reply to]  

Cooper never made the request that the chutes not come from McCord, his only demand was two back and two front chutes. In fact he assumed they were coming from McCord from a mistake the pilot made in relaying information to Tina. At 5:15 Tina called the cockpit to find out why they had not landed (Cooper wanted everything by 5 PM), the pilot told Tina they were still waiting for the front chutes from McCord. When Tina relayed this to Cooper his response was, "McCord is only 20 minutes from Tacoma, it doesn't take that long."

Cooper was described as having narrow sideburns.


SafecrackingPLF

Dec 18, 2007, 8:08 AM
Post #740 of 1694 (2826 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Back to the Tie [In reply to]  

It's assumed this was the tie Cooper wore that night and that he took it off inorder to put on the harness.

Is this true?

Do we know for fact, not that the tie belonged to Cooper (because that's very evident) but that it's the tie he was wearing during the crime?

If what you're saying regarding Tina watching him harness up, then you'd know if she also saw him remove the tie.

Personally, I still find it extremely suspect that Cooper purposely removes the tie with the clasp still on it. The fact that the tie was permanently damaged by the clasp is not really conclusive to Cooper having a habit of always leaving the clasp on the tie. Clasps nototiously ruin ties, even after wearing it only once. Further, multiple DNA donors only allow other possibilities to enter into the equation, such as: the tie was second hand, the tie was stolen from prison or commune, or the tie was grossly mishandled by authorities leading to multiple DNA.

If the tie was not mishandled, then that leaves us with the first two... a second hand tie or one that was used by several people (I say prison because I'm trying to think of a place where multiple people would need to borrow a tie)... if Cooper knew that someone other than himself had used that tie, it's quite possible, and I'd argue more probable given that the clasp was left on it (you generally remove a clasp first before you remove a tie) that Cooper purposely left the tie inorder to leave exculpatory evidence. Unbeknownst to Cooper, the clasp was too small to retrieve any prints.

I don't know, maybe I'm way off in that, or maybe it's on the mark. However, personally, I'd be unwilling to accept any DNA results unless we know with 100% certainty that 1. We have Cooper's DNA and 2. We know with 100% certainty we have a suspect's DNA. The only way to know 100% on either is to have multiple matches from different pieces of evidence.

Do we have that?

Not yet. DNA, so far, has been good, but not verified. If we cannot say with 100% certainty that we have Cooper's DNA & any suspect to test against, then we cannot say 100% that anyone is or isn't Cooper based on that testing alone.

If the tie was a plant, then you'll probably never match a suspect against it, even with multiple donors. The tie would exonerate everyone whether they did it or not.


SafecrackingPLF

Dec 18, 2007, 8:11 AM
Post #741 of 1694 (2824 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] What type of Jumper [In reply to]  

Ckret,

VERY helpful. As you can see, there has been a lot of misinformation out there over the years.

Him not specifying what type of chute certainly eliminates the professional jumper. Now we're talking about someone with limited experience.

It also ressurects the idea that Cooper may have wanted to jump in the SeaTac area, not the woods.


SafecrackingPLF

Dec 18, 2007, 8:17 AM
Post #742 of 1694 (2819 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Interesting... [In reply to]  

Quote:
McCord is only 20 minutes from Tacoma, it doesn't take that long.

He referenced the distance of McCord from TACOMA and not the airport?

Hmmm. I find this interesting.

I find it interesting because his statement seems to put his point of reference in Tacoma and not Seattle (which SeaTac is a suburb of).

I was going to crack a joke... it may not have taken that long back then, but today... that would take at least 3 hours at this time of day (3-5pm), ha ha ha.


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 18, 2007, 8:19 AM
Post #743 of 1694 (2816 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] What type of Jumper [In reply to]  

In reply to:
(G)oing off of what you've posted... that Cooper obviously knew something about skydiving but wasn't all that experienced.

A description that applies to more than just Cooper.

In reply to:
(D)oes that support how he specifically said not to get the chutes from McChord? Personally, I would say yes because he might have known he needed something good for freefalling...

As opposed to static lining out of a 727? Among other things, where would you propose to hook up a static line?

McChord is an Air Force base. Their pilot emergency rigs would have been equipped with 28' steerable parachutes, much better than 26' Navy models. BTW, pilot emergency rig = bailout = freefall.

In reply to:
(I)f he needed something good for freefalling, then my theory about Cooper wanting to jump right at take off near SeaTac would be totally incorrect (yes?). Plus, Cooper jumping right away would make it easy to be seen and subsequently caught.

Maybe the idea that Cooper wanted to jump in the SeaTac area just doesn't hold water given what we know... Cooper asked the chutes NOT come from McChord, and if he did jump at low alt right upon take off, there was good odds someone would have seen him. Maybe Cooper wanted to jump in SW [W]ashington all along??

To jump at low altitude (1000-2000 feet), he would have had to jump within a minute or so after take-off.

Mark


Ckret

Dec 18, 2007, 8:31 AM
Post #744 of 1694 (2808 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Interesting... [In reply to]  

In reference to the tie, we only know Cooper was described as wearing a black tie with a clasp and a black tie with a clasp was found in the seat Cooper had been sitting in. In regards to the DNA, if it is Coopers tie (more likely his than not) then at least one of the donors would most likely be Cooper.

Having said that and given the facts surrounding the tie and DNA, DNA in this case could not 100% rule anyone out or in as being DB Cooper. Even if a subject matched as being one of the donors, that would not absolutely make him DB Cooper.


SafecrackingPLF

Dec 18, 2007, 8:36 AM
Post #745 of 1694 (2807 views)
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     Re: [mark] What type of Jumper [In reply to]  

Mark,

Good points. Would it have been safe for Cooper to assume they'd give him emergency rigs and not some other (paratrooper) gear?

From the sounds of it, you say yes.

My primary question is if Cooper wanted to jump at low alt (Seatac) or if he planned all along to jump in mid west to SW Washington.

He had to of thought at least somewhat to a getaway.

Ckret, how many bankrobbers do you know of who never think about getaway? I'm sure there have been some idiots, but for someone putting at least this much thought into it, he had a plan A. Was his plan A to jump at low alt, or was his plan A to jump in mid Washington? Or did he not care one way or the other?


Ckret

Dec 18, 2007, 8:40 AM
Post #746 of 1694 (2803 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Interesting... [In reply to]  

Also, keep in mind that Cooper would not have known which flight path the NW crew would have taken out of SeaTac. Had they gone north to turn out over the coast, Cooper would have ended up in the Puget Sound.

However, I do believe Cooper wanted to get out of the plane as soon as possible. He knew the airstairs could be lowered in flight, but he wanted them down on take off, which it can't do. If he knew they could be lowered in flight and he wanted to bail out later, why have them down at takeoff. Also, within minutes after takeoff he began trying to get the stairs down. All this points to bailing out sooner rather than later.


SafecrackingPLF

Dec 18, 2007, 8:46 AM
Post #747 of 1694 (2799 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Interesting... [In reply to]  

I understand the DNA cannot prove a person was Cooper but that it can exclude. That part I totally get.

What I'm saying is:
Quote:
Cooper was described as wearing a black tie with a clasp and a black tie with a clasp was found in the seat Cooper had been sitting in

Ok, I'm following here. The tie belonged to Cooper, this much I think we can safely say with near 100% (99.99999999%).

Quote:
if it is Coopers tie (more likely his than not) then at least one of the donors would most likely be Cooper.

Only if Cooper actually wore the tie. That's the part I'm questioning.

I realize from your standpoint the odds here certainly would favor that he did wear it. What I'm saying is that 1. We have a multiple donor tie 2. It was left with the clasp on, and 3. Cooper carried a paper sack with him onto the plane, and 4. from what I've heard, this is the only evidence he left behind

What I'm suggesting is that there's some possibility this tie was left behind purposely. If it was left behind purposely, then we have to ask why. Did he simply not care? Did he think it didn't matter? Or, did he have another idea when he left it behind?

I don't know! I'm trying to figure this out. Right now, I'd put it at least 1:5 chance Cooper left this tie thinking exculpatory fingerprints would be found on it. If my probability is anywhere close to reality, that would mean at least a 20% chance that Cooper's DNA is not on the tie.

That's all I'm saying... we can maybe say with 80% certainty that anyone tested against the tie isn't cooper (if they don't match a donor) but we cannot say with 100% certainty.


SafecrackingPLF

Dec 18, 2007, 8:49 AM
Post #748 of 1694 (2793 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] The Aft Stairs [In reply to]  

Quote:
why have them down at takeoff

Well, Cooper didn't know how to lower the stairs. Having them down on take-off solves that little problem.

Quote:
Also, within minutes after takeoff he began trying to get the stairs down.

I agree with you here. My initial thinking is that he wanted to jump right away into a urban/suburban area, not necessarily the heavy woods. This would imply his escape plan involved the SeaTac area or at least that region (Tacoma, Seattle...)


SafecrackingPLF

Dec 18, 2007, 9:26 AM
Post #749 of 1694 (2776 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Clarification [In reply to]  

Quote:
was found in the seat Cooper had been sitting in

Was the tie on the seat, or in the pouch on the rear of the seat in front of him?

If it was found in the pouch, then I'm assuming the FBI looked at all the passengers who sat in that area from (DC? Did the flight originate from DC?)... still, even if they didn't, the odds of someone on an eariler flight wearing a similar tie & clasp leaving it in the pouch would be fairly remote (1:1,000,000).


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Dec 18, 2007, 9:27 AM)


Ckret

Dec 18, 2007, 9:39 AM
Post #750 of 1694 (2764 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Clarification [In reply to]  

The tie was found on the seat.

Can't lift prints from fabric, or should I say the vast majority of fabrics. In 1971 there really would be no reason to leave behind the tie to throw off investigators. There would have been far better choices than the tie. Having said that almost anything is possible, however, nothing I know of points in the direction that the tie was planted by Cooper.


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