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D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

 

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JohnRich  (D License)

Dec 16, 2007, 4:00 PM
Post #701 of 1694 (4202 views)
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     Re: [NickDG] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

In reply to:
>>It was dark, the chute would have instantly disappeared from his sight the moment he let go of it.<<

You're making an assumption as even on the darkest nights you can see a jumper for a bit of time after they exit, and Nov 24th, 1971 wasn't exactly a pitch dark night . . .

Depends upon your definitions of "instantly" and "bit of time". They could both be the same thing, depending upon your frame of reference.

The horizontal airspeed would make it disappear quicker than the vertical fall rate.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Dec 16, 2007, 4:01 PM
Post #702 of 1694 (4201 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

Hi there,

It takes a LOT of work to remove D-rings from a B-4 harness. I have known Earl Cossey since the 60's and I doubt that this occured.

Do you have something factual regarding this removal of the D-rings?

JerryBaumchen


peckerhead

Dec 16, 2007, 4:05 PM
Post #703 of 1694 (4201 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

In reply to:
The rigger removed the D rings from the back packs, there was nothing for Cooper to clip the reserve to.

The rigger?






SafecrackingPLF

Dec 16, 2007, 6:15 PM
Post #704 of 1694 (4185 views)
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     Re: [NickDG] Reserve Chute [In reply to]  

Great points by the both of you!

The moon half full, though we don't know where on the horizon it was at 8:11. I'm sure there's a way to figure it out.

Still, being able to see the pack fly & trying to see the pack fly are two different things. If he does throw the pack, does it really matter if he sees it or not?? In other words, he may have THOUGHT "it's worth a try, let's see if I can figure out the slipstream."

To decide if he actually jumped with a faulty pack or not, I'll pose the question... without D rings, does this mean he could not harness it? If it's not harnessed, then how would he jump with it on?


skyjack71

Dec 16, 2007, 7:53 PM
Post #705 of 1694 (4177 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

In reply to:
The rigger removed the D rings from the back packs, there was nothing for Cooper to clip the reserve to.

ShockedWhy did the rigger remove the D-rings?

SmileThe item Duane kept in his desk drawer that he was very protective of - a triangle very shiny and a bar that slid up and down on a rectangular piece. Many on this forum have tried to assist me with identifying the pieces, but time has taken much of it from my memory..the man who bought it told me it was part of a parachute. This was only a couple of months after Duane died.

SmileI was sent some pictures of the chutes by the man who provided the chutes for Cooper - but without actually seeing it and holding it my hands I am still uncertain.

My Questions: [;)The parachute he tore apart for the cords - Was it missing any parts that could have been used to assist Cooper in securing the money to him? and Are you sure Cooper didn't use the dummy chute or parts from it for this purpose?

There had to be a reason for him to toss this dummy out - maybe anger. Some people throw things to make their point.

Also speculate - what if there was something hidden inside of it - who packed that dummy and laced it? Was this one of their regular packers or a substitute? I beg the forgiveness of you jumpers out there, but I do not know how these things are done.

Final Question: How did the FBI determined where to get the chutes? I have heard lots of stories, but what did the FBI put in their file - did they call several places or would there have only been one place available on that Thanksgiving eve?


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Dec 16, 2007, 7:58 PM)


skyjack71

Dec 16, 2007, 11:20 PM
Post #706 of 1694 (4144 views)
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     Re: [peckerhead] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
The rigger removed the D rings from the back packs, there was nothing for Cooper to clip the reserve to.

The rigger?



CoolThat's what I said. Did you see these pictures - a composite done by a TV program for Florence Shaffner and an old photo of Duane that I never posted? Take a look and tell me what you think. Forget the Widows peak as not one witness said there was a Widows peak.

Remember that the TV programs put on what they want to and the one getting interviewed becomes exhausted and just wants to get it over with.

I will note that Carr has made no statement regarding these.
Attachments: Ace in Hole.jpg (80.3 KB)


Ckret

Dec 17, 2007, 9:07 AM
Post #707 of 1694 (4099 views)
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     Re: [JerryBaumchen] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

In Cossey's statement to the FBI on 11/26/1971, 4th paragraph "...he described the missing back pack parachute as having a sage green nylon container, model NB6 with sage green nylon harness, which harness has no "D" rings to mount a chest pack."


Ckret

Dec 17, 2007, 9:20 AM
Post #708 of 1694 (4094 views)
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     Re: [skyjack71] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

The chutes were secured through NWA's Seattle flight operations. The flight ops manager called an individual from Pacific Aviation who in turn called an individual he knew who had two back packs. This person put the two back packs in a cab and the cab driver delivered them to Boeing Field and then onto SeaTac by private car.

The chest chutes were picked up in Issaquah at Seattle Sky Sports and transported to SeaTac by the State Patrol.

I don't know why the D rings had been removed.


Zing  (D 6343)

Dec 17, 2007, 9:38 AM
Post #709 of 1694 (4092 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

An NB6 is a pilot/crewmember emergency rig. They don't have front mount D-rings. Unless the harness has been modified for sport parachuting use that requires both a main and a reserve parachute, there is no reason to install the front mount attachment points.
The emergency rigs for some crew members and pilots were a harness worn by the person that has no backpack containing a parachute. If the need to jump arises, the person must locate the chest pack parachute and attach it to the D-rings on the front of the harness.
Some cockpits and crew member stations did not have enough room for a person to occupy the station with either a backpack style emergency rig or the chest pack in place.
The crewman on a Lancaster bomber in WWII who survived after jumping without a parachute crawled out of his station to find that his emergency chest pack parachute was on fire. He jumped out anyway after deciding that bouncing was a better way to die than burning to death, but he got lucky and crashed down through tall pine trees and hit the ground on a steeply inclined, snow-covered hillside.
As I recall, when the British flyer was captured, the Germans, at first, refused to believe he had jumped without a parachute and lived and threatened to execute the man as a spy.

Ckret, what type of rig was the other backpack supplied to Cooper that night?


Ckret

Dec 17, 2007, 10:45 AM
Post #710 of 1694 (4083 views)
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     Re: [Zing] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

26' canopy, made by Steinthal, model 60-9707.

Thanks for the clarification on the D rings.


SKYWHUFFO  (D License)

Dec 17, 2007, 12:37 PM
Post #711 of 1694 (4061 views)
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     Re: [NickDG] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

I have a dumb question for the experts. How are they 100% sure Cooper was the only one on the plane once the crew went into the cockpit? Could sombody else have been hiding in the lavatory or under a seat, and be an accompliss? JO- did your hubby ever mention any friends? This would explain a couple of things, one why 2 chutes were requested, where the other chute went and by dividing up the cash it's less weight to carry. Didn't the crew state feeling two bumps they thought the first was him jumping and the second was the stairs closing? one guy jumps it make a bump think of jumping a tailgate now. the second guy goes, second bump and the gate closes. at that speed and jumping rounds and winds they probably would have landed in two seperate areas. One bundle of money was found is it from part of the money. If there was a second person did they bring on other clothes more suitable for the climates, because people keep saying he jumped in loafers and a thin suit. If you are trained enough to know how to make this jump then you know you are going to freeze your a$$ off at altitude in Washington in Nov. wouldn't that be a basic thought if you were planning this? I love reading this article every day to see what new comes out. Jo, goodluck on your quest if your hubby is Cooper then let's show the world, if not the greatest sky ledgend still lives. My second question is did Cooper really even exist? Could it have been the flight crew making him up and stashing the money and splitting it? Makes sense cause nobody else is ever referenced seeing him except the crew/ employees of the airline. Can sombody help with my questions because it has been somthing that is bugging me everytime i read this thread.


SafecrackingPLF

Dec 17, 2007, 12:47 PM
Post #712 of 1694 (4057 views)
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     Re: [Zing] Why his choice of chute? [In reply to]  

The obvious question...

Why select the NB-6 over the 26' Steinthal 60-9707?

1. NB-6 cannot mount any of the front packs, dummy or otherwise.

One seems like a logical choice for the sport jumper, the other??? Is the NB-6 good for freefalling? I'd love to know the pros/cons to this chute.

Why not use the NB-6 to cut the cords for securing the money and then use 60-9707 along with the front pack he DID cut up?

Was he just unaware of what he was doing? Or, did he rethink the whole front pack thing when he realized how heavy the money was? Or was he uncomfortable with the 60-9707? Didn't Cooper specify sport chutes verses military ones?

Maybe someone can run us through Cooper's probable thought process when he sees these four chutes, the NB-6, the dummy, the 60-9707, and the one he actually cut up. Put it this way, you're in his shoes, what are YOU thinking? Keep in mind, maybe he didn't realize the dummy was a dummy, as Ckret said, he looked them over and didn't really say anything "such as, this one is garbage"


SafecrackingPLF

Dec 17, 2007, 12:58 PM
Post #713 of 1694 (4054 views)
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     Re: [SKYWHUFFO] Confederate on Board? [In reply to]  

I'm the furthest thing from an expert, but I'd still like to chime in.

I was mistaken when I asked Ckret about two "blips". He corrected this. I was under the impression that there was a loss of pressure when the stairs lowered. From Ckret's response, I gather that the cabin was not pressurized. Though I do know the cockpit said something about an "ear popping experience".

The blip, from what I've gathered, was actually a bit of an odd response by the plane. They figured this was from a sudden change of lift properties of the plane when the aft stairs recoiled due to removal of Cooper & immediate air drag pushing the stairs up.

2 jumpers would not really explain the dummy chute. One wears a backpack and the other wears a dummy chute? Better than this would be to use both back chutes and jettison all other chutes as to leave no questions, but this didn't happen.

As for the crew hoaxing the whole thing... an interesting thought. They were never happy with the first composite sketch, if this was a fraud, why be upset with the Bing Crosby sketch? It should suffice. Plus, the money found on the river... that's quite a perplexing thing for a conspiracy. Someone actually has to dump that money... and then, why, and how? Another thing too, is that Tina was a devout Catholic, and for her to be an accomplice to larceny... I'm not thinking so. But those are my few cents.


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 17, 2007, 2:08 PM
Post #714 of 1694 (4032 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Why his choice of chute? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
The obvious question...

Why select the NB-6 over the 26' Steinthal 60-9707?

1. NB-6 cannot mount any of the front packs, dummy or otherwise.

One seems like a logical choice for the sport jumper, the other??? Is the NB-6 good for freefalling? I'd love to know the pros/cons to this chute.

< snip>

"such as, this one is garbage"

NB-6 is a Navy back container, usually assembled with a 26' conical, possibly a Steinthal.

26' Steinthal is a canopy; could be assembled with an NB-6.

Which one were you thinking would be a logical choice for the sport jumper?

Steinthal made parachutes mainly for the military market. They made a only limited amount of equipment for the skydiving market -- much later, in 1977 and 1978.

Rigger logbooks would not necessarily show both harness/container and canopy information; common practice at the time was to record only canopy info.

The NB-6 is not good for freefalling. It is good for stopping freefalling.

Mark


Ckret

Dec 17, 2007, 2:33 PM
Post #715 of 1694 (4023 views)
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     Re: [mark] Why his choice of chute? [In reply to]  

Lots of great questions.

The crew did it? for many reasons I say no but the main one is human nature. It would have been far too complex to pull it off with to many people involved. Not to mention if one person knows your secret, or ckret, and there is any incentive at all to tell, it will be told.

Two jumpers? if there was, one of them jumped leaving his chute on the plane. Cooper left one reserve and one back pack on the plane.

One pressure bump occurred at 8:10 to 8:11 PM caused when the stairs hit back up against the plane. Much like slamming the door of a tight German made car.


SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Dec 17, 2007, 3:29 PM
Post #716 of 1694 (4013 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

 
In reply to:
The chutes were secured through NWA's Seattle flight operations. The flight ops manager called an individual from Pacific Aviation who in turn called an individual he knew who had two back packs. This person put the two back packs in a cab and the cab driver delivered them to Boeing Field and then onto SeaTac by private car.

The chest chutes were picked up in Issaquah at Seattle Sky Sports and transported to SeaTac by the State Patrol.

I don't know why the D rings had been removed.

Zing's post explains why there were no D-rings on the parachutes. Most of us oldtimers have seen these kind of rigs used by jump pilots. They were thinner than a standard military surplus sport rig because there was no sleeve on the canopy. A sleeve is basically a large sock that slides over the round canopy and is used to reduce opening shock.

Anyway, these emergency rigs were also used by aerobatic pilots, glider pilots and warbird pilots to name a few. I can imagine the guy from Pacific Aviation calling someone he happened to know off the top of his head who had a couple of chutes. A non-skydiver, meaning the Pacific Aviation guy and the owner of the rigs would probably not have any idea about D-rings for a chest mounted reserve. After all, to them a chute is a chute is a chute.

Now, the reserve chutes. Why one of them was a dummy container used for training only is anyone's guess but it's a moot point for now because of no D-rings on the emergency rigs harness to attach it to. I read a statement earlier in these posts that the dummy container was empty. I think what was meant was that there was not a parachute in the container.

First a little explanation on these training reserves for those unfamiliar. These training reserve containers normally had just a sewn shut sleeve filled with scraps or rags to give it some bulk and a few lines to attach it to the inside of the container. There is a ripcord and the container can be closed so students in a suspended harness can practice pulling a ripcord, throwing it away and hand deploying an un-pilotchuted reserve parachute. The instructor could quickly stuff everything back in the container and close it up for the next student. And as mentioned earlier, these training containers are normally well marked stating Training Use Only, Do Not Jump.

So, now back to the 727 and Cooper. I don't know the time line was of when he knew that he could not attach a reserve to the harness of his main. But he might have figured it was a delaying tactic and decided to get airborn and go with just the main and no reserve. Now, he has a bag of cash and might have decided to use the training container to stuff the money bag into. You see those containers still have clips and loops and lots of ways that they can be securely attached to the harness. Probably more secure than holding onto the money bag or putting the cash into a briefcase.

To tie the cash/reserve container to his rig or body he would need some strong cords. The cords in the training container were quite possibly worn and frayed. Hmmm... well he had that other good reserve that he can't use. Might as well open it and cut some good lines off of it and use them to tie on his just fashoned cash/reserve container.

Now I have a question for you Ckret Agent Man (to steal the name)! What is the bulk of $200,000 in twenty dollar bills? From something you posted earlier about the weight of the money I am going to guess that he could have gotten much but not all the cash in the reserve container. So... in this scenario he has a bunch of money securely straped to himself in the reserve container. So the other cash is carried how? If he tried to hold on to it or had it poorly attached to himself then he could have lost this portion during the jump. It might be the cash that was found by the river.

This is just beer fueled speculation on my part. But it might give an insight into Coopers knowledge and background with parachutes as well as explain why certain items were found in the condition they were in.

So again Ckret, what is the bulk or volume of the money?

BTW, I still think Cooper was a smoke jumper.

JMHO Cool


SafecrackingPLF

Dec 17, 2007, 3:42 PM
Post #717 of 1694 (4006 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveJack] Front Chute Dilemma [In reply to]  

Quote:
To tie the cash/reserve container to his rig or body he would need some strong cords. The cords in the training container were quite possibly worn and frayed. Hmmm... well he had that other good reserve that he can't use. Might as well open it and cut some good lines off of it and use them to tie on his just fashoned cash/reserve container.

I like your line of reasoning. My only addition here is that the cut up reserve chute is no good only with the harness that he jumped with. The one left behind might (Ckret?) have had the D rings needed. If this happens to be the case, then you must ask yourself, why would he cut up the good reserve when he could have just switched harnesses to use it?

Maybe he got antsy and decided the hell with it. In other words, maybe he was short on time and didn't want to take the time to get out of the harness and strap on another just so he could use the reserve. Or, maybe NickDG's original idea is correct... that Cooper just wanted to stuff the front pack with the money. It's possible, that was his plan all along.


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Dec 17, 2007, 3:43 PM)


SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Dec 17, 2007, 4:06 PM
Post #718 of 1694 (3996 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Front Chute Dilemma [In reply to]  

 
I like your line of reasoning. My only addition here is that the cut up reserve chute is no good only with the harness that he jumped with. The one left behind might (Ckret?) have had the D rings needed. If this happens to be the case, then you must ask yourself, why would he cut up the good reserve when he could have just switched harnesses to use it?

Maybe he got antsy and decided the hell with it. In other words, maybe he was short on time and didn't want to take the time to get out of the harness and strap on another just so he could use the reserve. Or, maybe NickDG's original idea is correct... that Cooper just wanted to stuff the front pack with the money. It's possible, that was his plan all along.
First of all, maybe I missed it, but was it actually established if the the other emergency rig did or did not have D-rings?

Second, since I missed many of these posts over the last few weeks I was not aware that NickDG had already brought up using the training container to stash the cash in. Sorry Nick, I didn't mean to steal your idea.

Crazy


Ckret

Dec 17, 2007, 4:26 PM
Post #719 of 1694 (3990 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveJack] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

Cooper's plan was to have the money delivered in a knapsack. When he realized it did not come as requested he tried to secure the money in the reserve's container but could not make it fit. He then decided to use the cords to tie off the top of the money bag, then wrapped the cords several times top to bottom and fashioned some type of handel out of more cord. Tina stated the last time she saw Cooper he was tying cord around his waist.

The money was approximately the size of an average toddler, a point of reference most can visualize.


SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Dec 17, 2007, 5:24 PM
Post #720 of 1694 (3975 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Cooper's plan was to have the money delivered in a knapsack. When he realized it did not come as requested he tried to secure the money in the reserve's container but could not make it fit. He then decided to use the cords to tie off the top of the money bag, then wrapped the cords several times top to bottom and fashioned some type of handel out of more cord. Tina stated the last time she saw Cooper he was tying cord around his waist.

The money was approximately the size of an average toddler, a point of reference most can visualize.

You said that he tried to secure the money in the reserve's container. So this means to me that he knew it was a training reserve. That seems to eliminate a lot of previous discussion that he was a non- jumper and didn't know what he had. Was the training reserve container found in the aircraft? If not maybe he threw it and other items out of the aircraft to distract any other airplanes he thought might be shadowing the 727.

Ckret, can you please confirm that both of the emergency backpack parachutes did not have D-rings?

If this was the case then Cooper must have figured that he was committed to jumping with just one parachute and the money bag tied to his body. Either that or landing somewhere else to get another set of gear and risk getting captured in the airplane. And not to mention that he would possibly be far away from the Northwest part of the country where he probably intended/wanted to land in.

If all the money was in the bag provided then it kind of kills my previous speculation about some money being lost from a second container. Back to the drawing board.

I still think he was a smoke jumper. Any thought on that?

Unimpressed


Ckret

Dec 17, 2007, 5:59 PM
Post #721 of 1694 (3959 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveJack] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

He tried to secure the money in the functioning reserve chute he took apart. If he knew what he was doing he would have tore open the dummy chute leaving the functioning reserve for it's intended purpose.

I'll go over the file but I don't beleive either had D rings. Can anyone shed light on the model that was left on the plane that I posted earlier.


skyjack71

Dec 17, 2007, 7:12 PM
Post #722 of 1694 (3945 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveJack] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
plan was to have the money delivered in a knapsack. When he realized it did not come as requested he tried to secure the money in the reserve's container but could not make it fit. He then decided to use the cords to tie off the top of the money bag, then wrapped the cords several times top to bottom and fashioned some type of handel out of more cord. Tina stated the last time she saw Cooper he was tying cord around his waist
SkydiveJack replied:
" he knew it was a training reserve."
" Was the training reserve container found in the aircraft?
" please confirm that both of the emergency backpack parachutes did not have D-rings?"
"I still think he was a smoke jumper. Any thought on that?"
Unimpressed

Sorry SkyDiveJack, I had to shorten some of that, but I need to ask Ckret and the skydivers more questions.

ATTENTION CKRET!
Questions:

CrazyThe money is not delilvered in the manner in which Cooper demanded. He has to Jerry rig - what Tina saw may not have been how he jumped. It was my understanding that she went into the cockpit after that and remained there for the rest of the flight.
CrazyThe dummy pack if empty - note that I say if empty - he could have made a container out of that for part of the money. Did it have any loops or rings of some kind on it - he may have used those and cords from the other chute to secure it to himself and to close the container? The chute he cut up - was any of the hardware removed?
CrazyWho packed that dummy X pack and why was it given to the FBI for the jump? Why was the X pack obtained from a certain location?I believe that someone has already said that the dummy was not packed by a jumper - So who packed it? A part-time worker, a volunteer, someone claiming they wanted experience working in this field, active or inactive service personel or was it someone known to the FBI and was this person investigated and do you have the name used by this person? Was this person maybe a woman? You can bet I have a reason for asking all these questions.

ShockedI have been counseled not to post certain information in a forum - but, right now I don't give a XXXX. You post but have yet to say one thing about the prison photo and it's comparison to another composite.

CrazyI have made pleas to the FBI about his prison experiences - obviously the FBI has never looked or they would have found the other things I found in his files such as any identifying marks, tattoos, scars,etc. not to mention the photo that I posted with a very specific expression - mentioned by the witnesses...they definitely mentioned it to the composite artist who did the redo of the composites.
CrazyI have repeatedly over the yrs asked the FBI about his experiences in certain prisons -Duane had ranger training - it is up to the FBI to find where.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Dec 17, 2007, 7:21 PM)


SafecrackingPLF

Dec 17, 2007, 7:21 PM
Post #723 of 1694 (3942 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveJack] Front Chute Dilemma [In reply to]  

Skydivejack, my apolgies, NickDG suggested Cooper tied the bag of money to his chest and threw the dummy. You're the one who thought he attempted to use the front chute to stuff money.

So he tried to stuff the front pack that he already tore open... now that makes some sense. I'm perplexed that he doesn't figure out the dummy chute is sewn shut and probably less work to stuff it full of cash.

It appears Tina saw exactly how Cooper was planning on jumping with the money. I didn't know this, I had always thought it was speculation about him wrapping the cords around the top, etc. He allowed her to see a lot.


low_pull1

Dec 17, 2007, 7:31 PM
Post #724 of 1694 (3931 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveJack] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

.................
I still think he was a smoke jumper. Any thought on that?
.....................................

after you mentioned this, i searched smoke jumpers on google. Interesting that i found this picture of these guys in ties.

what do ya think? any smoke jumping experts still alive from the time? Any smoke jumpers with big balls? wild enough to fit the situation? Any Skydivers/pilots/smoke-jumpers fit the profile?


(This post was edited by low_pull1 on Dec 17, 2007, 7:48 PM)
Attachments: original_smokejumpers_450.jpg (43.0 KB)
  smokejumper site picture 70s.JPG (54.0 KB)


Ckret

Dec 17, 2007, 7:39 PM
Post #725 of 1694 (3926 views)
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     Re: [skyjack71] Video of Cooper Evidence [In reply to]  

Cossey actually packed all four chutes, the two back pack chutes were sold or given to the individual who sent them in the cab to Boeing field. Cossey also packed the reserve chutes, but they were provided not by Cossey but the owner of Issaquah Sky Sports. Cossey discovered the mistake later on.


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