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Is the AFF rating too easy?

 

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davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 23, 2009, 7:37 AM
Post #376 of 447 (1474 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You could do that in the 1980s too.
You could get an AFF JM rating and go out with any level AFF student.
IIRC, the only thing that an AFF JM could not do that an AFF I could do was teach the FJC.

That's true, but in between a jumper with no experience and jumping alone with a student was the AFFJMCC.

If you want to bring back the Yharling standard to the AFF certification process, than all of this other talk is moot. In that case, all jumpers are welcome at the course, and if you can pass, you're in. Most people didn't pass.

If you want to continue with the current certification courses, than something needs to change. You can't make the course that much easier, and not change the rest of the system to match.

The only reason the old system worked was because the course was a meat grinder. Once you turn it into a hand-holding session where everyone gets to talk about their feelings, you may have to build up the rest of the system a little to match.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Dec 23, 2009, 7:39 AM)


kmills0705  (D 21696)

Dec 23, 2009, 8:38 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

So it seems to me we have a couple different topics going on here. The original question posed was "Is the AFF Rating too easy?". To me that means is the course too easy. Is it? I don't know. I never went through the "old" course. I certainly didn't think it was easy. It was one of the most mentally and physically challenging weeks of my life. I don't really hear many suggestions on what the requirements should be to pass such a course. USPA has it written out pretty clearly. What would you all suggest be done differently?

Maybe the question needs to be reworded to "Are the requirements for qualifying for an AFF Rating too liberal?". I am from the era of BIC, JCC's and ICC's. I first went to a BIC, then received my S/L JM and then went on (with a year requirement as a JM) to get my Static Line I.

I have spent years teaching static line students and first jump courses (static line). With times changing and the sport evolving my little drop zone determined the need to introduce AFF to our student program. Several of us with varying backgrounds went through the AFF I course. Not all passed. The course was not easy and I believe those of us who did pass all earned our rating.

There will always be I/E who will let someone slide or who have lower "standards". Those really aren't standards they just simply don't care. How they got to an I/E status makes me wonder.

As a newly rated AFF Instructor should I have to spend a year as a reserve side jumpmaster? I have mixed feelings on this. I feel I should be qualified and ready to be able to handle anything (main side or reserve side). If I am not then I shouldn't be in the air. On the other hand I do look to work with seasoned AFF I's simply to continue my personal growth as an Instructor.

While the "in-air" Instructor skills are crucial there is so much more to being an instructor. If you teach a student correctly and well on the ground (by actually spending time going over each and every objective on the ground through explaination, instructor demonstration and student practice) then you are going to produce a better student in the air.

If we go back to the JM rating with a year "apprenticeship" then what is the role of the JM while instruction is taking place on the ground?

Just one last thought. A good I/E will encourage newly rated AFF Instructors to continue to learn from those who have been AFF I's for quite some time. It was recommended that to gain experience we offer to work with a seasoned AFF I and just cover our jump rather than getting full pay so that we can be in the air and gaining the experience that will make us better Instructors.

Some of us do take this seriously. Some of us have a true love of working with students and are not doing this to make a few dollars.

Kimberly Mills D21696 S/L I, AFF I


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Dec 23, 2009, 9:19 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

The only reason the old system worked was because the course was a meat grinder. Once you turn it into a hand-holding session where everyone gets to talk about their feelings, you may have to build up the rest of the system a little to match.

If this is your view of the current program, then you've got a seriously poor I/E in your area or a completely ignorant awareness of the new program. I'd expect it's the former.
On the whole, exactly how many people get their coach rating on Monday and their AFFI on the following Monday? No one has to be injured or killed to provide that statistic. Just because it CAN be done doesn't mean it IS being done on a regular basis.
The current system _is_ set up to encourage candidates to teach as coaches prior to getting an AFFI rating, and it seems to work on the whole.
As much as I agree with changing minimal AFFI requirements, it seems like so much of this issue may be cleaned up by enforcing what is already in place, at the I/E level.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 23, 2009, 10:32 AM
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"At the next AFF standardization mtg I brought up the idea of using real AFF eval jumps to distribute to all the AFF IEs. Then they would watch each jump and grade it. Then the grades would be compared. That would help ensure a more uniform grading policy. The idea was shot down because several AFFCD did not want their vids distributed and there was a model release issue. There is also the difference between watching a dive 3rd person and actually being on it, & off-screen issues. But I think that enough vids can be gathered to help get the grading standardized."
In reply to:

I personally would support this idea with no problem.
As far as your reasons for keeping the coach rating where it is, thank you. Finally someone has filled me in on the resistance. I understand those concerns and I will go as far as to say they are at least valid reasons.
The flip side of the coin is the med to larger DZ that when an eager candidate has 100 jumps and gets his coach rating, he is being put in a precarious situation. I have seen him made fun of behind his back, ridiculed, and the majority of the skydiving community saying, "What the hell is a guy with 100 jumps actually going to teach anyone. knowing like you said there is a 1000 jump I ready to take the same student on a coach jump. Remember I am a Coach I/E and have defended and argued avery aspect of the coach requirements, advocating for the 100, B. The problem is, I see it so discouraging and embarassing to these new coaches. I have been a buffer in between the new 100 jump coach and every other instructor that basically says what the hell can that guy teach anyone. The new coach knows what people think and it is unfair to put them in this position. At a small DZ a 100 jumps may seem like alot and that person must be at the DZ quite often to acquire that many, so they are building relationships as an experienced jumper. This is a serious problem at a med to larger DZ.
I will give a bit of push back on all they must do is teach the basic of skills and act as a base. A coach is responsible for molding a future skydiver, and that includes giving or exposing him/her to every aspect of the sport. At 100 jumps what exactly experience can they draw from. I personally feel 100 jumps is not enough to be given this responsibility. Remember 25 jumps are AFF and made towards your A license. So 75 jumps is about what youare looking at give or take some. If we push it to 200, these prospective coaches are not going anywhere, they will still get the rating just in a better posisition as far as air time and ground DZ experience.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Dec 23, 2009, 10:35 AM
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

exactly how many people get their coach rating on Monday and their AFFI on the following Monday? .

With tandems it happens all the time. Iv seen at least 10 TI myself take the coach course one week and TI the next...
Thats why I think the one year as coach works in all systems. Make coach 200 jumps C with one year wait time to Get a I. Learn to work with student before you teach them as a I... Make the I a 3 year D requirement like it is for tandem. Make all I's the same. Simple is better.
As for IE's and there courses. The ones I dealt with handed me nothing. I worked my ass off for them..

A year IE meeting or every two years like AFF IE's have would be a good thing too


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Dec 23, 2009, 10:38 AM)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 23, 2009, 10:48 AM
Post #381 of 447 (1406 views)
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Re: [kmills0705] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As a newly rated AFF Instructor should I have to spend a year as a reserve side jumpmaster? I have mixed feelings on this. I feel I should be qualified and ready to be able to handle anything (main side or reserve side).
In reply to:

Kim,
you have a great post and I would like to hit on some of it but I only have some time here. The above is incorrect you can jump main or reserve or even alone as an AFFJM. You are just being supervised and have an Instructor to help debrief you and give you some usefull tips. If the DZ wants to throw a new AFFJM on one on one jumps have at it. But there will be a heirarchy between you and a AFFI that has been working with students and can give you some useful debriefing. As someone statd the only difference was that a AFFJM could not teach the FJC alone. So rest assured you are not losing anything.
As far as being ready for anything after your AFFCC, be careful with this one. An I/E can not nearly throw at you what you will have to deal with in the air. Yes more and thorough groundwork helps but the fact is you are going to have shit thrown at you that you have never seen before and you better be ready to handle it. If I told you that your next student would flip over, and go into a helicopter speed back spin and then said to you would you like someone who has dealt with this many times to be there with you? What would you say? Sure couldnt hurt to slowly be introduced to disasterous situations. I will tell you right now, NO AFFCC new graduate is ready for what they will encounter and if they think becuase they have a new shiny card that they were anointed with the experience to handle anything, that person is dangerous.
Fast forward down the road where you have 1000 aff jumps. now a brand new AFF shows up with his card saying, "I can handle anything I passed the course" Wouldnt youlike to have some oversight on him/her. The JM rating just allows youto keep an eye on Mr or Mrs. I can handle anything.
I have around 1500 AFF now, and I will tell you I have had some weird shit happen to me, but in the same breath the next jump could be the most harrowing experience of my life and I know it. I treat every jump as a mini war, me vs. student. and I can not lose one war. At larger DZ's these new AFF's are dangerous because they have that I can handle anything additude. I just would like to keep them in check.


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Dec 23, 2009, 11:05 AM
Post #382 of 447 (1399 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

exactly how many people get their coach rating on Monday and their AFFI on the following Monday? .

With tandems it happens all the time. Iv seen at least 10 TI myself take the coach course one week and TI the next...
Thats why I think the one year as coach works in all systems. Make coach 200 jumps C with one year wait time to Get a I. Learn to work with student before you teach them as a I... Make the I a 3 year D requirement like it is for tandem. Make all I's the same. Simple is better.
As for IE's and there courses. The ones I dealt with handed me nothing. I worked my ass off for them..

A year IE meeting or every two years like AFF IE's have would be a good thing too

Can we keep to one discussion?
I understand skydivers often have ADD (I do myself) but this conversation has now gone from the AFF rating to changing AFF and I/E's to changing AFF, I/E, Coach, Coach I/E, and now Tandem.
Focusing on broad sweeps is counter productive and a recipe for guaranteed failure.

I also don't believe this happens "all the time."
The numbers are fairly easy to prove. Prove em.


kmills0705  (D 21696)

Dec 23, 2009, 11:27 AM
Post #383 of 447 (1391 views)
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In reply to:
At larger DZ's these new AFF's are dangerous because they have that I can handle anything additude. I just would like to keep them in check.

Ok, maybe that was incorrectly worded. I definitely don't have an "I can handle anything" attitude. I am not a cocky person and hope I don't come across as such. I will always look towards those with experience for advice and guidance. I know I have a lot to learn and hope to gain experience over the years to pass back on to those just starting out.

I valued and respected the knowledge and insight from one of the AFF I/E I came to know. But when I took the course through another I/E it seemed I was no longer worthy of such knowledge and insight.... which is quite sad honestly.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Dec 23, 2009, 11:46 AM
Post #384 of 447 (1381 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

exactly how many people get their coach rating on Monday and their AFFI on the following Monday? .

With tandems it happens all the time. Iv seen at least 10 TI myself take the coach course one week and TI the next...
Thats why I think the one year as coach works in all systems. Make coach 200 jumps C with one year wait time to Get a I. Learn to work with student before you teach them as a I... Make the I a 3 year D requirement like it is for tandem. Make all I's the same. Simple is better.
As for IE's and there courses. The ones I dealt with handed me nothing. I worked my ass off for them..

A year IE meeting or every two years like AFF IE's have would be a good thing too

Can we keep to one discussion?
I understand skydivers often have ADD (I do myself) but this conversation has now gone from the AFF rating to changing AFF and I/E's to changing AFF, I/E, Coach, Coach I/E, and now Tandem.
Focusing on broad sweeps is counter productive and a recipe for guaranteed failure.

I also don't believe this happens "all the time."
The numbers are fairly easy to prove. Prove em.

Not sure why you see that way... Its one in the same.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Dec 23, 2009, 12:12 PM
Post #385 of 447 (1371 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[
Not sure why you see that way... Its one in the same.

No, they're not "one and the same." All three ratings carry very different courses, very different scopes, and very different requirements.

Changing one at the USPA level is a challenge. Changing all three at once is a near impossibility.
Get on the phone and speak with your RD. Attend a single BOD meeting, you'll "get it." Otherwise, you won't. The USPA isn't any different than a large coporation or military unit. The wheels move slowly and cautiously. Just because a very small and focused group of people are freaking out on the internet doesn't mean there is panic upstairs in the real world.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Dec 23, 2009, 12:34 PM
Post #386 of 447 (1366 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I love you guys and your ability to research but does it take statistical data to make a hypothesis that a coach will have more experience prior to the course with 200 jumps rather than 100? or if you coach for one year, and remain current 20 coach jumps, you will have more experience than if you go directly into an instructor course the next day?

What if we are successful in implementing change and then we have a rash of student incidents, (God forbid) does that mean we can go back to less stringent requirements? I have spoken about stats
x 10 during this monstrasity of a thread. They are not reported, period. Do not expect a call from a DZ or an instructor saying Hello USPA, I lost a student today, sorry just couldnt catch him/her. Here is my rating thanks,
Can we stick to the point can we raise the coach requirement to 200 jumps and a C license? and require 12 months in rating to be eligible for an instructor course.
The JM stuff and one year under a AFFI is gravy as far as I am concerned because I see that this is going to be an uphill battle. The resistance is pretty impressive to say the least. I just have no sane reason why it needs to be that way.
103 Skydivers so far think we need to do something. Take a look at the names, it is fairly impressive. I know that I/E's are on there, DZO's are on there, S&TA's are on there. and some BOD wish they could be on there.

If you want stats then maybe we can start a petition to keep it the same.
Then lets take the first 100 skydivers and add up the total number of combined jumps on each petition, the one with the most skydives wins. There are your stats. Of course I am being phasetious.

Next step after acquiring at least 200 signatures is to draft a letter to my regional director asking his assistance in getting this on the table for discussion. If any of you have suggestions please make them. and if you say they will want statistics then you guys are coming with me.

Para.... I would like to address the coach topic. I got my coach raqting at 120 jumps. I thought it was great that I could do that. I know I am improving everytime I jump but I feel very good about being able to coach students through the "CAT's" I am permitted to coach. I also feel good about teaching class (I have taught a long time in various situatuions). Also, My I/E's Greg and Kim kicked ass. They also were very tough on us. Greg said in the very beginning that we will earn this rating bc he will not sign off unless he knows that we can handle the rating. Sure enough our class was not easy and I feel I earned my rating! Thanks again Greg and Kim :). Now looking back with all of my experience Tongue I actually do see that the coach rating may benefit from more experience. Maybe 150 jumps? I am no stud in the air but I do think I do well with students but I can see some jumpers that have come off of student status and reached 100 jumps that I would be horrified if they got their coach rating. At my DZ we all know each other and it is small. I think that helps when someone wants to get a rating bc we are very honest with each other when saying someone is or is not ready. I do not think oir small DZ would be hurt that much by a coach rating requiring 150-200 jumps in in my thoughts..... that can be nothing but positive for future students being taught by them. I think the only down side is that some DZ's may suffer as a result needing coachs but whats more important.... the quality of the program and safty or being able to have more coach instructors at a DZ?


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Dec 23, 2009, 12:43 PM
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Im not sure anyone is freaking on the Internet. I know that USPA has seen this thread and some will agree that at least their need a discussion on this matter.

Can I ask you a question?
Do you think there needs to be a change?
If so sign the petition.
If not dont sign.

As stated before the petition is just to get them ( The Board ) to starting looking into it. To see if there is a better way to produce safer and more qualified instructors.

You clearly have more experience with the Board. If numbers is what you think they will want. Look into it. Again as stated before the thing going on at local DZ's are not reported , Like losing a student or cypress fire. If there were no injuries it wont get reported. So we dont know if that number is up or down as they didnt report it in the old system either.


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Dec 23, 2009, 1:23 PM
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Re: [ozzy13] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You clearly have more experience with the Board. If numbers is what you think they will want. Look into it. Again as stated before the thing going on at local DZ's are not reported , Like losing a student or cypress fire. If there were no injuries it wont get reported. So we dont know if that number is up or down as they didnt report it in the old system either.

Not in my job description. I have my own agenda with the Board, and I'm not interested in diluting my own efforts to promote yours. You want the change, YOU look into it. I have looked at two years worth of stats because it's relatively easy. It takes no effort at all to sign a petition. It takes no effort to blather on the internet.
It DOES take effort to get into a plane seat, fly to a BOD meeting, and take part. All of which I've now done five times.
And yes, I signed the petition, even though I don't agree with the stipulations recommended within it.
I also have reason to believe that change in the ratings program is imminent, and was so long before this thread began.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 23, 2009, 1:49 PM
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

A cuople added points:
I am not freaking out on the internet, I have been jumping for 18 years and have had this concern for probably the better part of the last 5. I just really did not have the time or method to speak to instructors from around the country. I will speak with Safety & Training and ask them the proper procedures and protocols. If they would like me to fly out and present my thoughts I will. If they want statistics, then I will get them to the best of my ability. This thread is really just to educate myself on othter areas and instructors views so I know what I am facing. I like to get my facts inline before I take any action, this way I do not look like an uneduacated asshole.
Whatever your agenda is, which I have no idea by the way, I would listen and support you in anyway that I could.
You bring up one very good point that some may not realize. This is run like a paramilitrary organization because there is a set up heirarchy in place. Far beit for me to violate any chain of command. I will go through proper channels. I agree with this organization being a slow moving process that is why it is imperative to take it slowly and incorporate as many people as possible. True change is easier if people have say in the change rather than having something crammed down their throats.
I am not screaming the sky is falling and as a side note I did not forward this to half the world. I wanted to accumulate thoughts and then go to S&T. It appears the petition beat me there. My bad.
One last note, and I am not refering to anyone particular but I have also been transparent with this giving my full name and contact information, which may have been a bad thing as I have spoken now to several dozen people on the phone and more than that via email.
DSE: If you have experience in dealing with the uspa bod and comittee's that can only help me by asking your opinion. You can sav3 me some time and effort, and I appreciate that. I just like to stay as positive as I can, I do not have time for negativity.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 23, 2009, 2:13 PM
Post #390 of 447 (1307 views)
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Re: [AFFI] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is it the evaluators or the system?

The evaluators and course driectors ARE the system. If slop gets through there, it manifests itself on the DZ with real students.


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Dec 23, 2009, 2:18 PM
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

You already know I'll help you, and you already know I'm in support of the concept of change, and in support of a couple of the mechanisms you wish to change.

Like you, I've received several PM's on both sides of the scale. There is indeed, a perception of hysteria about this subject. It may not be stemming from you, but it's there, nonetheless.

Folks that make ridiculous statements about what is going to happen sound pretty silly. Absolutes in the absence of fact are damaging.
Contrary to Kip's declaration, far more than one member of the BOD are following this post. And more than one feel this thread has gone beyond absurd, which is one reason I'm doing my best to play the middle. If you think I'm being objectionable by asking for facts or real-world support, wait'll you stand in front of the BOD.
My agenda is the Wingsuit Instructors Rating. Nothing more.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 23, 2009, 6:08 PM
Post #392 of 447 (1246 views)
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Quote:
If you think I'm being objectionable by asking for facts or real-world support, wait'll you stand in front of the BOD.

This is more or less why I've stated my doubts that any actual change will take place. However, I still feel that some change would be a good thing.

How about this - let's say you're a baker who bakes bread. This bread is for the exclusive consumption of people who have never tasted bread before, and you are only allowed to sample the first loaf you make to see if it tastes good.

Moving forward, how are you supposed to know if it tastes good? Your 'customers' have never had bread before, so they are of little help. The bread may suck, but they might just think that's what bread is supposed to taste like. If it doesn't kill them, or make them sick, you would never know if your bread was dry and salty and gross.

An AFF I/E is in the same position today. They are producing a product intended for the exclusive consumption of first time consumers (the students). These students don't really know a good instructional experience from a bad one, so if they don't end up injured or killed, they will be satisfied with the performance of the product (the instructor).

This is, of course, leaving out terrible instructors who would, say, bail out of a striken aircraft without their students. That is obviously a bad product.

So what it comes down to is an issue of quality. You can offer students an instructor who may or may not be ready to do a 'good' job, but are definitely ready to do an 'acceptable job'. It's always a good thing when students are not injured or killed, but it is a better thing when students are taught in a way that caters to their own learning style, by an intructor who can indentify and capitalize on that individual learning style.

Now we are all in agreement that becoming an instructor is a long process. It begins with passing the cert. course, and moves forward from there. The course provides that you are capable of the min. performance required to do the job, and nothing more. It's a baseline.

From there, experience will carry you forward. The more time you spend working with students, the more unusual circumstances and scenarios you encounter, and these will all get filed away in your personal 'hard drive'. Without these files to access, you may not know what to do in certain unusual situations. The abilities you used to pass the cert. course will allow you to produce an 'acceptable' solution to the situation in that nobody dies or gets hurt. Was this the best solution? Was it the one that gave the student the most opportunity to learn in the safest way possible? We don't know, and never will because an 'acceptable' solution was applied, making the event not worthy of further scrutiny.

I don't think any AFF course, or prerequisites to an AFF course are going to produce good instructors right out of the box. I don't think it's possible. There are too mnay variables in the business of humans teaching humans for an instructor to learn what they need to know without actually instructing. This is why I think that one year as a JM, only jumping with another instructor present is the way to go. It ensures that every 'I' has the benefit of real time experience to bring to the table.

Should they fly main and reserve side? Absolutely. Should they assist in training, ground prep, and debrief? Absolutely. These things are essential to building up your 'hard drive', and preparing you to work one on one with students. This is how you improve the quality of the instruction. Give the students, every one of them, experienced instructors (at least on one side).

This brings us back to the bakery. The AFF I in this example is an experiecned baker who works as your taste tester. He's there to sample the product, and adivse you along the way how to make it better. He's also there to make sure that you're at least trying to make the bread good, even if the customer doesn't know any better. Sooner or later, you too are an experienced baker, who can tell by the look and feel of the dough is the bread will taste good or not. (I'm not suggesting you eyeball and feel up your students)

I know you haven't had your rating for very long, and had a little down time since then, but ask yourself this - who got the better learning expereince from you, your first student, or your most recent?


KathleenL  (C 37482)

Dec 24, 2009, 5:54 AM
Post #393 of 447 (1177 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just my 2cents as a relatively new coach. I agree with the C license and 200 jump minimum to take the coach course. Actually, I had just gotten my C when I took the coach course because that is when I felt comfortable doing so.

Also, just a suggestion make the progression from coach a combo of time in rate and documented student jumps. I agree with most here that getting a coach rating one week and the AFFI or Tandem rating the next weekend is not good. I don't know how anyone can really believe that they would be a good AFFI who has not done any jumps with students. However, with the current system if you don't have a time in rate requirement for coach it is possible to obtain the AFFI rating without actual student jumps.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Dec 24, 2009, 9:59 AM
Post #394 of 447 (1141 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

to:
stratostar and airrage2
Pretty f****** easy to jump on this bandwagon and go after someone anonymously.
Typical of the internet.
Do either of you have the balls to identify yourselves or just say this stuff to someone face to face????
I thought so....
This whole "I'm afraid of being thrown off some dropzone" crap is just that.
The internet is the worst thing that ever happened to skydiving.
Used to be, if someone had a problem, we'd deal with it face to face, then get over it and have another beer.
Get a pair.......
or shut up


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Dec 24, 2009, 10:01 AM
Post #395 of 447 (1141 views)
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Re: [KathleenL] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't agree that someone with 100 jumps isn't ready to be a coach.
I do feel that a huge number of those that get their coach rating at 100 jumps aren't serious about the rating.

One year as a coach should be a requirement prior to challenging the AFF course, IMO, but so should be a minimum number of jumps as a coach, too. FAR too many coaches are pencil-whipped, again IMO.

The coach rating isn't about flying, it's about teaching. It's about pre-briefing (anyone with 100 jumps can do that), it's about gear checks (anyone with 100 jumps should be able to do that), and it's about debriefing (anyone with 100 jumps should be able to do that).
The coach rating (IMO) is a mindset, not a standard of excellence. Some/most get it and use it as a brag-bullet. Some get it and actually have a mindset of wanting to teach and improve themselves.
Too many get it merely cuz they have to if they want to become drogue-throwers and have no interest in being better, teaching, or progressing to anything but a TI.
But all of the SPECIFIC objectives of being a coach relate to TEACHING, not to flying. The flying skills challenged in the coach course are about communication and memory for debriefing. Nothing else. Coaches can't stop a spin, roll over a student on their back, nor harness hold. They can't pull for a student. All they can do is provide some hand signals and debrief the jump.
And at 100 jumps, anyone _can_ do that, it's a question of whether they care to or not.


KathleenL  (C 37482)

Dec 24, 2009, 10:29 AM
Post #396 of 447 (1129 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you hit the nail on the head DSE. Coaching is all about teaching. You have to be very aware in the air with a student. You will not be able to debrief them if you are not. And of course you have to be able to translate what you know to the student so that they understand. I also think that this applies to AFFI.
I taught adult skills based educational programs for years both civilian and military and that experience directly relates to coaching skydiving. I just felt that it took me more than 100 jumps to be aware enough in the air to actually be useful debriefing students.
As for flying skills, your right we as coaches are not required to stop them spinning, roll them over or pull for them. But we do have to be in the same air space with a student to see them and give signals. So some flying skills are necessary.

Laugh Hey I get enough flipping, rolling and fruitlooping doing combat RW with my mates. Laugh Sounds like it might be good practice if I ever wanted to go for AFFI. LaughLaughLaugh

To bad there is not some positive reinforcement in place to recognize the teaching skills of coaches and AFFI. Some one should organize a coaches and insturctors challenge to train students. AFFI's and coaches could team up and take a student from jump number one to the A license then take their students and have a mini competition. Just a thought, it sounds like fun to me. Plus, I think students would have a blast too.


AirRage  (F 1000)

Dec 24, 2009, 10:47 AM
Post #397 of 447 (1122 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
to:
stratostar and airrage2
Pretty f****** easy to jump on this bandwagon and go after someone anonymously.
Typical of the internet.
Do either of you have the balls to identify yourselves or just say this stuff to someone face to face????
I thought so....
This whole "I'm afraid of being thrown off some dropzone" crap is just that.
The internet is the worst thing that ever happened to skydiving.
Used to be, if someone had a problem, we'd deal with it face to face, then get over it and have another beer.
Get a pair.......
or shut up

HAHAHA, I was contacted by a few that wanted more specific information on the incidents that I spoke of. I've been identified to everyone that needs to know. Don't feel that bad that your not that important. As far as a face to face goes, if I see KL in person again that will certainly happen. Funny that you say "The internet is the worst thing that ever happened to skydiving." Ur using it buddy!!! Now go take some percocets.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Dec 24, 2009, 10:58 AM
Post #398 of 447 (1115 views)
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Re: [KathleenL] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess in my mind the ability to fly relative (and close) goes without saying. The purpose of the coach rating is to learn the skills of teaching in building blocks and assemble those blocks, brief pre-jump, check gear, and debrief post-jump.
If you can't fly relative, then you won't have much to brief, as student won't be docking with you if you're not relative.

In the past two years, I've observed at least 100 people going through various coach courses.
What I see the most of, is skydivers who start sitting on their ass in the sky as soon as they get their A license. They continue to mess around with freeflying until they hit 100 jumps, and they want their coach rating. Then they can't fly relative on their belly. And so then they don't pass.

I see the same thing every month with AFFI candidates. People who have spent the majority of their jumps freeflying (some are very good) but they can't do anything on their bellies. They don't pass either. The majority of unsuccessful challenges I've seen have been exactly these. Freeflyers that can't drive with their feet, can't match fall rate, can't quickly recover during major separation. Some of them work really, really hard to fix these problems. Others give up. Still others decide they'll be evaluated anyway and then get pissed when they get UnSats on their scores. Then there are the videographers that have been shooting tandems. Most of em' are pretty good.

If you wanna teach, then prepare to teach rather than playing with your ass from your A license forward.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Dec 24, 2009, 11:20 AM
Post #399 of 447 (1108 views)
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Re: [AirRage] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
to:
stratostar and airrage2
Pretty f****** easy to jump on this bandwagon and go after someone anonymously.
Typical of the internet.
Do either of you have the balls to identify yourselves or just say this stuff to someone face to face????
I thought so....
This whole "I'm afraid of being thrown off some dropzone" crap is just that.
The internet is the worst thing that ever happened to skydiving.
Used to be, if someone had a problem, we'd deal with it face to face, then get over it and have another beer.
Get a pair.......
or shut up

HAHAHA, I was contacted by a few that wanted more specific information on the incidents that I spoke of. I've been identified to everyone that needs to know. Don't feel that bad that your not that important. As far as a face to face goes, if I see KL in person again that will certainly happen. Funny that you say "The internet is the worst thing that ever happened to skydiving." Ur using it buddy!!! Now go take some percocets.
You've got to keep your log-ins straight. airrage to airrage2 in 2 days and gained a bunch of examiner ratings in the process.
Not a matter of MY importance, more a matter of YOUR integrity....


AirRage  (F 1000)

Dec 24, 2009, 11:23 AM
Post #400 of 447 (1106 views)
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Re: [KathleenL] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Very cool idea!


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