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Is the AFF rating too easy?

 

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MakeItHappen

Dec 18, 2009, 11:57 AM
Post #301 of 447 (1724 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Members of the Exec Committee have been made aware of, and read this thread. That was how I learned of the very recent "issuance" of a "conditional AFF rating."

FWIW, a "conditional AFF rating" is for someone who is only allowed to jump reserve side.

I imagine that is for the "conditional student" who will do everything right.

DSE- I seriously doubt that the EC is reading this or any other thread.

.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Dec 18, 2009, 9:38 PM
Post #302 of 447 (1678 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Members of the Exec Committee have been made aware of, and read this thread. That was how I learned of the very recent "issuance" of a "conditional AFF rating."

FWIW, a "conditional AFF rating" is for someone who is only allowed to jump reserve side.

I imagine that is for the "conditional student" who will do everything right.

DSE- I seriously doubt that the EC is reading this or any other thread.

.

I was present as one member was reading it a few days ago and when same EC member had a conversation with another EC member on the phone at a later date.
As mentioned previously, I had a face to face discussion with a member of the EC about the BS issuance of a so-called "conditional AFFI" rating.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 18, 2009, 11:51 PM
Post #303 of 447 (1666 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is so easily solved. The BOD and USPA needs to grow a set.

Just make the coach rating 200 and c license. You must be a coach for 12 months before being elligible for the AFF course.

then once you graduate the AFFCC you are a AFFJM.

for 12 months you will apprenticeship with seasoned AFFI's, learning as much as you can.
Then you are elligible for your AFFI.
I still have not heard any negative to this suggestion. Why is this a problem, we are trying to giv some integrity to the process and to Instructors.
OK I will say it, the current process is a JOKE>..

What is the problem with that?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 19, 2009, 5:26 AM
Post #304 of 447 (1658 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is so easily solved. The BOD and USPA needs to grow a set.

Just make the coach rating 200 and c license. You must be a coach for 12 months before being elligible for the AFF course.

then once you graduate the AFFCC you are a AFFJM.

for 12 months you will apprenticeship with seasoned AFFI's, learning as much as you can.
Then you are elligible for your AFFI.
I still have not heard any negative to this suggestion. Why is this a problem, we are trying to giv some integrity to the process and to Instructors.
OK I will say it, the current process is a JOKE>..

What is the problem with that?

Sounds good on paper but...integrity is not something you can give. There seems to be a shortage of instructors with integrity.

Pairing a candidate with an I that has no integrity will do more damage than what is currently going on, IMHO.

There's much more to AFFI than flying skill.


stratostar  (Student)

Dec 19, 2009, 6:09 AM
Post #305 of 447 (1654 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There seems to be a shortage of instructors with integrity.

No Pop's your wrong, the main problem is a few AFF I/E course directors have a lack of integrity and choose to bend the rules as they see fit or for that matter make up a new class of rating on the spot and issue a "conditional rating". (must have been one great blow job)

You can't expect instructors to "fly right" or act with integrity if the people who are training them is a Low rent classless asshole who has proven no matter how high of a ranking with in the USPA instructional program or even as a regional director, they get they pick and choose the rules that apply to them only, all the while going around bitching loudly about how people need to follow the rules, they seem fit to disregard.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 19, 2009, 6:59 AM
Post #306 of 447 (1649 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I still have not heard any negative to this suggestion

To you, or anyone who already has a rating, there clearly is no downside.

To a jumper on the cusp of earning any of those ratings, or any jumper who holds future ambition of earning any of those ratings, all of your suggestions represent addiitonal time and effort, both of which would be considered downsides.

To an I/E, those are all downsides as well. The longer the process, the more possible candidates you'll loose to attrition, injury, or marriage. Fewer candidates mean less money in the I/Es pocket.

To a DZO those are downsides because it gives them fewer intrsuctors to work with. It's supply and demand - the more intructors there are, the more valuable the instructor employment slots at the DZ become. You don't want to toe the DZOs line? Well fuck you, there are ten guys with a rating in the hanger who would love your job.

For the USPA, less intructors means less money. Even if you put the money issue aside for the USPA, you can see how it would effect I/Es and DZOs, and those poeple seem to be high on the USPAs list of 'friends of the board'.


propofol65  (D 29502)

Dec 19, 2009, 8:23 AM
Post #307 of 447 (1638 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quality vs quantity? Damn, that should be a no brainer. Safety, safety, safety. And quantity doesn't equate to safety.

Strato, throw some names out there so I can stay away from those I/Es that don't strive for ensuring AFFIs earn their rating.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Dec 19, 2009, 10:33 AM
Post #308 of 447 (1625 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is so easily solved. The BOD and USPA needs to grow a set.

Just make the coach rating 200 and c license. You must be a coach for 12 months before being elligible for the AFF course.

then once you graduate the AFFCC you are a AFFJM.

for 12 months you will apprenticeship with seasoned AFFI's, learning as much as you can.
Then you are elligible for your AFFI.
I still have not heard any negative to this suggestion. Why is this a problem, we are trying to giv some integrity to the process and to Instructors.
OK I will say it, the current process is a JOKE>..

What is the problem with that?

I entirely agree with the concept. I do have a problem with a few of the I/E's that hand these things out regardless of qualification.
Rather than considering them AFFI's in training, it could simply be said that they're "conditional AFFI's."Angelic


dninness  (D 19617)

Dec 19, 2009, 10:54 AM
Post #309 of 447 (1621 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
<snip>
Of course instituting a one year min. as a coach to even qualify for the AFF course would put another level of experience and education into the perspective instructors tool kit.

See, I tend to agree with this. Upping it to "one year as a coach" doesn't specifically guarantee you have any jumps with students as a coach (I've seen too many instances where a coach didn't jump with the required number of students during the year, but got signed off as having done so anyway...), but it does put another year under your belt. Whether you got any experience during that year is another matter, but its a start, and its a fairly low/no cost change that could happen quickly without a lot of teeth gnashing.


In reply to:
Of the least importance is upping the requirements for the coach rating. Coaches themselves can do very little harm, as they don't get near a 'student' in the air until an AFF I has cleared them for self supervision. These jumpers could make the skydives with no help what-so-ever, but thanks to the ISP, they end with a 'buddy' to tag along and watch.

I disagree that coaches can do very little harm. I think they can have both a great positive and a great negative impact on a student. If they're a marginal coach, I think the student doesn't any advancement for what they just paid for their coach jump and in fact can pick up bad habits..

I had the opportunity to jump with a newly-minted coach and a student on a 3-way jump this last year and was utterly amazed at how this new coach paid more attention to a camera helmet than the student (I did the gear checks and briefings) during the ride to altitude, and this coach was hardly in the skydive for a substantial part of the jump. The student said to me later "I hardly saw XX for the whole jump. Is that the way RW goes?" and I had to explain to him that zooming past the base in a track is probably not the best way to win friends and impress load organizers.

So, IMHO, a person who marginally qualifies for their coach rating and then does a repeated shitty job on coach jumps is doing more harm than good to students.

(and no, I was not an instructor at that time, so this coach was not 'under my supervision,' although I did have a conversation about performance with another instructor at the DZ and got a shrug of the shoulders and "What are you going to do?" for my troubles..)

Frankly a lot of what I'm reading in this thread speaks to what I referred to earlier as that so-called "journeyman" period. I'd caution calling it an apprenticeship (and I agree: why should someone pay for someone else's apprenticeship?)

Once you get your rating, while technically you're "fully rated," you're still "learning" or perhaps more accurately "experiencing" AFF. I guarantee that nothing I've seen in the AFF course is exactly like what I'll see in the real world. Not possible. So I need to build that base of experience.

Of course, what do you do at DZs where sometimes the dude who just got his rating is the only instructor on the DZ at the moment? There are a lot of small DZs in the country where this is the case. They don't have legions of instructors laying around wating. Do you tell the student "Sorry, dude, I can't do your D-1 jump, I can only do 2-instructor jumps.."?


(This post was edited by dninness on Dec 19, 2009, 10:58 AM)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 19, 2009, 11:15 AM
Post #310 of 447 (1616 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

The problem I have with calling them conditional AFF is that I do not want to make them feel as if they are substandard. They earned the AFF JM rating by passing the course and should have the title AFF Jump Master. Also what student wants to jump with a conditional AFF? That will allow them to jump with AFF students and intervene if necessary. The year as a JM is just to keep a close watch on them and give them the tools necessary to teach on the ground and fly with unpredictable students. I have taken new AFF's on jumps and on each jump we see something that they learn from. One year later they are ready to go. An example is when a student starts to twist at the waist to attempt a turn, expect them to flip and be ready. If I sit down with the new jm and show them and they see it on a jump we are still teaching them. You never stop learning ever. If you think you have seen it all stop instructing because you are a danger. If you think you can handle any situation stop instructing. I do not care how many AFF you have.

Remember we actually already had the Jm rating, so we are not recreating the wheel here. It is a very easy transition.
To those future instructors: If you are upset that you may have to gain more experience, I apologize but if you stick with it, you will acquire all the necesaary skills to be an outstanding intructor. You will also be respected for doing so. If you think respect is not important go and ask some of the new AFFI's that are laughed at behind their backs, because one weekend they were taking the coach class and the next they were an AFFI.
Further: remember that bullshit word that everyone seems to forget "Safety". Nobody can argue that this will not be a safer progression, and I mean nobody. IF the USPA, I/E's, Or DZO's are honest they will admit that it will be a much more sound transition process. I think that if the DZO's are thinking of income, and the USPA is thinking of fees, and the I/E's are thining of income, there is something seriously wrong with the whole system. This is almost ludicrous that we have to argue for the safer method. If you take money out of the equation then the only person who would have a gripe would be someone close to going for the rating. I say to them, "Trust me you will be much happier if you earn the rating as apposed to going to one class and getting it. I had a new AFFI say something to the effect of, "I got the rating I am qualified to jump with students one on one." My answer to that is you can take that rating card and wipe your ass with it. Until you have acquired the experience to ensure that the student will under the supervision of the most qualified person we can put out, be safe. I do not care what AFF I/E says you are okay. And I will say that to any I/E. A rating means you are allowed to jump with a student in a instructor capacity, but nowhere does it say we have to allow you.
What scares the hell out of me is the mind set of some of these new guys. I was a AFFJM and rode reserve side and sat through first jump courses with a shut mouth learning. I was scared to go one on one, second guessing my ability. I did not care that Don Yarling signed a card saying I was ok. All I could think about was god forbid I lost a student. A year later I was scared shitless to jump on upper levels alone. That fear is what keeps you sharp and on top of your game. I see now adays is that lacsadazical, it will be fine additude or even worse, "wow I just couldnt catch that one glad he deployed.".
Lets talk about liability for a moment: I have discussed a student sueing everyone. How about an Instructor who turns around and sues because we said he was okay and something went wrong. The whole process will be put to the test.
Please, try to put monitary reasons aside for a moment and think of the safety of new students.
Now engage in debate, why cant we start the process to change this?. Any I/E's willing to give their two cents? You are either going to not like my view because of cash loss or you will respect it because I have no vested interest in this. Other than I do not want to do a student fatality investigation. I am trying to be procative, here.


(This post was edited by Para5-0 on Dec 19, 2009, 11:26 AM)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 19, 2009, 11:23 AM
Post #311 of 447 (1612 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

As if that wasnt long enough one more thing: when you get that new instructor that you cant tell anything because he knows it all. Everyone knows that guy!! Currently, he is on an even playing field with any AFFI, with no experience. With the JM rating he will be under the thumb for at least one year where he still needs you to say he is okay. Now he must at least listen to your thoughts. Whether or not it sinks in is another topic. It will create a much needed post class heirarchy.


(This post was edited by Para5-0 on Dec 19, 2009, 11:24 AM)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 19, 2009, 11:47 AM
Post #312 of 447 (1603 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have started a petition to see if there is support amongst the USPA general community to increase current requirements. If there is support I will deliver this to the Safety and Training comittee.
If not I tried.
Remember this is just to start debate, positive and negative.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/instructorchanges/


(This post was edited by Para5-0 on Dec 19, 2009, 12:08 PM)


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Dec 19, 2009, 12:50 PM
Post #313 of 447 (1589 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.ipetitions.com/...n/instructorchanges/

Signed!!!!


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Dec 19, 2009, 12:51 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Dec 19, 2009, 1:45 PM
Post #314 of 447 (1570 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Any I/E's willing to give their two cents? You are either going to not like my view because of cash loss or you will respect it because I have no vested interest in this. Other than I do not want to do a student fatality investigation. I am trying to be procative, here.

The "conditional AFFI" rating had an Angelic icon next to it because it was a joke, just as it was when the rating was recently issued.

Where does the line get drawn? It's a well known fact that at least a couple I/E's will hand out a rating if the candidate is cute enough and will provide sexual favor. It's well known that this occurred under the old program and new.
Is this the fault of the USPA? Fault of way the programs are set up? Fault of the I/E? Fault of the candidate?

It's one thing to scream the program is broken.
Even when you offer a mostly complete solution, they will be exceptionally hesitant to fix the problem you feel you've identified.
Further, has a problem been truly identified? So far, all I see is a number of opinions, all of which come from those who already have their rating and have nothing to lose.
Absent injury stats, fatality stats, no actual incidents that specifically can be attributed to AFFI failure, negligence, error, nor even contribution, a collection of very biased opinions is as meaningful and valuable as gum on the bottom of a shoe. C'mon...if the problem is SO bad, then at least provide an ATTEMPT at listing statistics. If there are incidents, collate them to make at least a semblance of argument not based on emotion.
This is entirely a subjective topic when presented without one iota of fact to back up the position.

My opinion is that the Coach rating is a stepping stone for the AFFI rating, and it would seem that a fair percentage of those that get the Coach rating do go on to earn the AFFI.
100 jumps is a fine milestone, IMO, for someone to achieve a Coach rating, assuming they can be able to teach, and are allowed/encouraged to use those skills on the ground, with perhaps a required # of coached jumps signed off by a DZO or S&TA prior to challenging the AFFI course. I believe you're wrong that this will produce "outstanding" instructors. I believe it will provide greater opportunity for "outstanding" instructors. I like the idea of a petition, even if I don't believe the problem is as deep as you suggest. Some facts might change my perspective.

I can't agree with your petition in toto, but applaud the attempt.

However, this still doesn't address the ethically challenged AFFI/E question.

Dissatisfaction is a catalyst for change. Good luck.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 19, 2009, 2:39 PM
Post #315 of 447 (1561 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

DSE,

All good stuff. Ilike your points and that is exactly why we should debate this thoroughly. The safety and training commitee should do the same thing. I have my own thoughts on problems and solutions but I respect all opinions.
As far as statistics, I mentioned earlier it will be difficult to get accurate results. AFFI's and DZ's do not report the type of incidents I am speaking about. Sure we can look at reported data but I am talking about lost students, AFFI's not inthe proper spot to respond to problems, not riding the student through deployment, student cyprus fires.. How do we get those results? and if we do we can not compare them to anything because we dont have those results from days of old.
signing the petition does not mean you agree one way or another, it just says we would like to open it up for debate.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Dec 19, 2009, 3:32 PM
Post #316 of 447 (1558 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As far as statistics, I mentioned earlier it will be difficult to get accurate results. AFFI's and DZ's do not report the type of incidents I am speaking about. Sure we can look at reported data but I am talking about lost students, AFFI's not inthe proper spot to respond to problems, not riding the student through deployment, student cyprus fires.. How do we get those results? and if we do we can not compare them to anything because we dont have those results from days of old.
.

I'm not looking for "accurate statistics," I'm interested in ANY statistics.
A few examples that can be tied to the Incidents database going back four years would suffice. You know the USPA is going to ask for them too.

I'm reasonably sure the number of tandem incidents outnumber AFF-related incidents at least 50:1. Is anyone suggesting the TI rating (which carries a TREMENDOUSLY greater responsibility), is "too easy?"


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 19, 2009, 3:46 PM
Post #317 of 447 (1557 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes I am...

I think the 12 month in coach rating will help for Tandem Instructors as well. That will stop the coach course this weekend and the Tandem Instructor rating next weekend. It boggles my mind that we give Instructor status to Tandem Instructors that have never made a coach jump, or technically may never once worked with a live student.
I cant possibly open this can of worms but I think the Tandem Rating should be 1000 jumps and coach rating for 24 months. I am a dickhead I guess but some will agree. Lets just stick to the Coach and AFF though. One step at a time.


diablopilot  (D License)

Dec 19, 2009, 9:53 PM
Post #318 of 447 (1523 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Members of the Exec Committee have been made aware of, and read this thread. That was how I learned of the very recent "issuance" of a "conditional AFF rating."

FWIW, a "conditional AFF rating" is for someone who is only allowed to jump reserve side.

While I appreciate the attention, that result is utter BS. Quite frankly, someone is ready to do the job or they are not. At any time a reserve side may be forced into being the main side during the jump.

We're having trouble seasoning instructors, maybe we should actually make them learn the material they are going to teach, before letting them jump. Apprenticeship starts with coaches, so the "drive by-coach one weekend-AFF instructor the next" rating courses HAVE to go, and a requirement for time in sport, and time as a coach/apprentice needs to be developed.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 20, 2009, 7:04 AM
Post #319 of 447 (1503 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Apprenticeship starts with coaches, so the "drive by-coach one weekend-AFF instructor the next" rating courses HAVE to go, and a requirement for time in sport, and time as a coach/apprentice needs to be developed.

That is what I have been screaming for 13 pages. Thank you. 12 month requirement for coach rating prior to an Instructor rating. In theory that will give them 20 coach jumps at a minimim.

Sign..
http://www.ipetitions.com/...n/instructorchanges/

If you beleive that we can make a difference, please pass it around to all your skydiving friends.


(This post was edited by Para5-0 on Dec 20, 2009, 7:14 AM)


Skymonkey2  (D 20527)

Dec 20, 2009, 7:26 AM
Post #320 of 447 (1494 views)
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There is one that is reading it, but that is the only one, and he has called me twice. But has no answers to the problem, someone should bring this thread to the B of D. If more are reading it we would here from them


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 20, 2009, 7:36 AM
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Re: [Skymonkey2] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I promise to bring it personally, once I see that enough people feel the same way that I do. Once I have enough names on the petition, I hope to initiate good debate. As I have said many times, I have no horse in this race other than a love for the sport and a concern for student safety.

http://www.ipetitions.com/...n/instructorchanges/


diablopilot  (D License)

Dec 20, 2009, 10:20 AM
Post #322 of 447 (1475 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

You and me both, I've been saying it at the last 2 years worth of BOD meetings.....

IMO the biggest challenge to this change is convincing the BOD that the change is wanted/needed. Letters of support seem to work, anyone care to write some I can take with me? Tell your fellow instructors about this as not that many communicate online......

Para, am I gonna see you in Phoenix?Smile


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 20, 2009, 11:11 AM
Post #323 of 447 (1463 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

If I can get enough people on this petition I think the BOD will at least acknowledge we have concerns.
I will try my best..

What is in Phoenix? I thought the standardization meeting was in San Diego. I go to Phoenix now and then for work.

Smilenever used a smiley face but why not,

USPA strives to make sure all skydivers who are instructional rating holders are highly skilled and receive thorough training. A high-degree of competence from our instructors ensures that new students feel safe and confident to take that first leap, be it a tandem, AFF, IAD or static-line jump.(USPA.org)


(This post was edited by Para5-0 on Dec 20, 2009, 2:20 PM)


AirRage  (F 1000)

Dec 20, 2009, 8:44 PM
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Re: [Skymonkey2] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Skymonkey2, you are a part of this problem as well. Ive noticed that you have chosen to pick on an Indiana dropzone three or four times in this thread. Lets talk about that.

You said that you watched a SLI harness hold exit an AFF student right? I know of the incident that you speak of and the student was actually on his low 20s in jumps and that SLI and AFFI were trying to work out a few problems he was having. (Im not going to agree or disagree with this practice.) In fact, you helped debrief that student after the jump and had no problem with it at that time. The very next day you used the same AFFI and SLI as evaluators for your coach course candidates. So are you saying that you will let instructors that you have these serious problems with evaluate your course candidates?

While teaching that coach course you informed the candidates that a current instructor at their dropzone had pulled below the hard deck on a coach course eval jump in the years past and you still passed that candidate. Could it be that the candidate is a friend of yours? Maybe a little favoritism there?

When this dropzone decided to create an AFF program (it had never been done there before) you were contacted first as their IE of choice to work with the AFFI candidates. You had no problem at all with this at the time. In fact, the only time that you developed a problem with it is when you informed that DZ that your schedule would not permit you to be there when it was convenient for the group. So they went with another IE and then all the sudden you develop a problem with it? Every dropzone has to start somewhere, like this fact or not its irrelevant. I just want to know why you were ok with it when they asked you and then had to go with another IE because you wouldnt be able to make it, your problem begins?

Those that know you know that you have a certain IE out there that you love to bash. In fact you complain about this IE almost every course you put on. Care to tell us all who you got your ratings from? So everyone else that got a rating from this guy did not earn it but you did?

You are a very skilled skydiver. You are an amazing instructor. So the truth may hurt but you also suffer from a case of double standards.

All this being said, I couldnt agree with DSE anymore. Where is the data to support the claim that there is a problem? We can all sit around and tell stories, but what are the stats? Are we trying to create a solution to a problem that does not exist? Is there and issue with IEs. yes, all of them, they are human. I am lead to believe that the process works. If you wish to prove me wrong, then show me the stats and quit telling stories.

Thanks DSE for bringing the stats question up!


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Dec 20, 2009, 9:18 PM
Post #325 of 447 (1395 views)
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Re: Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking more this kind of progression:

Coach ---20 coach jumps---> AFF Course ---12 months---> AFF I ---2 years---> AFF I/E

Once the person passes the AFF course, they have to be signed off by an experienced AFF I after doing a year of actual AFF work. I think in the case of small DZs where there isn't another AFFI, the AFF could go back to an AFFI/E to get signed off.

The problem with the statistics are that they're easily dismissed because they aren't conclusively saying what all these people feel. The form on the USPA's site for submitting incidents allows for the selection of license but are they actually entered? Are the incidents even recorded? There was one at my DZ recently and, on the face of it, may be relevant to this discussion but when you know the people involved, you know it's not.

For the record, I don't have any rating and would be happy to do a more difficult coach course.


(This post was edited by danielcroft on Dec 20, 2009, 9:18 PM)


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