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Stilleto as a Student Canopy

 

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Poll: Stilleto as a Student Canopy
A lightly loaded stiletto is acceptable 32 / 7%
A 1:1 loaded stiletto is acceptable 13 / 3%
A stiletto is NEVER an acceptable student canopy 387 / 90%
432 total votes
 
EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Jun 16, 2010, 5:09 AM
Post #251 of 397 (1373 views)
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     Re: [scratch69] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

scratch you assume it will take a few years to get to 500. I am betting I reach that in 2. 2 is otherwise known as a couple. I will take that offer by the way.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Jun 16, 2010, 5:29 AM
Post #252 of 397 (1360 views)
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     Re: [scratch69] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

Oh yeah something else you said

Quote:
how do you propose we go about deciding who these "elite" quick learning jumpers are ? Roll the dice? Perhaps the stars and planets have the answers? Have you spoken to your local psychic ?

The instructors who have watched me fly have the answers tough guy.


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Jun 16, 2010, 6:03 AM
Post #253 of 397 (1349 views)
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     Re: [EFS4LIFE] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Quote:
do you think I actually care what someone who has never met me types about me on the internet?

Yes I think you do. You keep coming back here attempting to justify yourself, trying to defend yourself, and seeking the approval of better and more experienced jumpers.

You give every indication of caring.

In reply to:
Quote:
The internet has made it easy for people to say shit they normally wouldn't without having to fear the consequences.

Welcome to 1990. Crazy


(This post was edited by NovaTTT on Jun 16, 2010, 6:04 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 16, 2010, 6:13 AM
Post #254 of 397 (1341 views)
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     Re: [Joellercoaster] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

Quote:
If you really believe that, ring up PD, tell them your experience level, and see if they'll sell you a Stiletto 190

He claims he did just that. Of course, more experienced jumpers have hard time believing that because PD has a reputation of being conservative with their demos, and would not send a Stiletto of any size to a guy with 100 jumps.

See post 206 of this thread, where the guy who works for PD seems to indicate that EFS4LIFE was less than truthful when dealing with PD.


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 16, 2010, 6:14 AM
Post #255 of 397 (1340 views)
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     Re: [EFS4LIFE] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

In reply to:
The instructors who have watched me fly have the answers tough guy.

Dude - what do you want people here to say? What would make you happy?

You seem to disregard anyone's opinion on here and you have the support of your instructors. Why are you even posting here?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Jun 16, 2010, 6:20 AM
Post #256 of 397 (1337 views)
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     Re: [davelepka] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

Quote:
See post 206 of this thread, where the guy who works for PD seems to indicate that EFS4LIFE was less than truthful when dealing with PD.

Nope, I'm not implying that at all. I have no idea if they'd send out a demo with to the individual - I'd assume not, but I don't honestly know.

Ian


Ron

Jun 16, 2010, 6:39 AM
Post #257 of 397 (1325 views)
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     Re: [EFS4LIFE] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

Quote:
The irony is you just want to say my decision is bad without actually explaining why other than I don't have the experience.

This just proves you have not been reading anything.

Quote:
Basically "I have this much, and you have this much" is all you keep saying.

No, it is all you keep hearing. Because it is all you want to hear.

Quote:
You don't want to debate how a 190 at a 1 to 1 actually performs.

There is no debate on how it performs... The debate is if it is suitable for a low time jumper. And if that low time jumper is really qualified to make that decision.

Quote:
You assume to know me.

No, I know your TYPE and I know your experience level. I have seen thousands of guys with your experience, seen hundreds with your attitude.

Quote:
You assume I am some hot shot who is going to get himself hurt without actually knowing anything about me


No, I assume you are a guy that only listens to advice that supports what he wants. It has been proven by you quoting Brian, but then ignoring how he say's elliptical's are NOT ALLOWED until after 300 jumps.

Here it is again:

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

Quote:
Canopy Design
Add one size for Fully Elliptical Canopies
-F.E.C. = More than 20% wing taper
-Fully Elliptical Canopies are not permitted for jumpers with less than 300 jumps.
-Prior to transitioning from a non-elliptical to elliptical planform, all jumpers should make at least 100 on a non-elliptical parachute of the same wingloading, or as dictated by the Canopy Transition Course Instructor.

So again you have shown you only hear what you want to hear. That just proves my assumption (along with a whole bunch of other things you have posted).

Quote:
You have assumed a lot.

Unfortunately, experience allows me to see the same ego filled personalities in new people year after year.

Quote:
do you think I actually care what someone who has never met me types about me on the internet?

It is pretty clear that you do... since you keep trying to prove you are correct and keep posting even after you have claimed several times that you were done.

Seriously.... How many times do you think in 16+ years I have been jumping that I have seen guys acting EXACTLY like you?


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Jun 16, 2010, 7:51 AM
Post #258 of 397 (1299 views)
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     Re: [Ron] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Everything said in Post 257, which is deleted because who likes having to scroll through the same "Reply""Reply" posts?

Once again, a single post summarizes all that needs to be said.

Once again, said single post is going to be ignored contextually, and argued ignorantly. Crazy


scratch69  (F 1)

Jun 16, 2010, 9:01 AM
Post #259 of 397 (1278 views)
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     Re: [EFS4LIFE] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

In reply to:

The instructors who have watched me fly have the answers tough guy.

You are so UNIQUE..... just like everyone else Unsure

It's like listening to a 3 year old throwing a fit. How can a person be so damn incorrigible ?? I truly believe that you started out with a serious post but then slowly morphed into a troll as this thread grew and you realized that you were striking a nerve with everyone. Now you are just trying to piss everyone off for sport. Good for you. When you see a femur injury right in front of your eyes for the first time, you will learn. Especially if its a friend, you will change your cocky tune. This sport is full of piss and vinegar know-it-alls, your not alone. If you hang around the dz enough to make 500 jumps in 2 years, you'll likely get to see some bad shit sooner or later. Until then, enjoy your invincibility cloak.

And remember, everything you wrote on here cannot be deleted. It will look great on your Darwin Award should you ever biff in on that canopy. Fly safe friend.


d123  (B 6134)

Jun 16, 2010, 9:07 AM
Post #260 of 397 (1268 views)
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     Re: [scratch69] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

Clasical spoiled kid. Parents if you read this please don't spoil your kids!


d123  (B 6134)

Jun 16, 2010, 9:16 AM
Post #261 of 397 (1261 views)
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     Re: [EFS4LIFE] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

Man, sigh ... they don't understand the light that you have seen. It's not their fault man. Its just you and me, again, and I still believe in you. PD does too. Don't let them old experienced skydivers, who lived plenty of good years in skydiving take your entusiasm down, on internet, with their "experience" (or whatever you call that thing that makes them good). They're wrong and they don't know that. They don't know that it's a new air that we're breathing now. It's thinker and more! It's swoopier!
I'll keep my Sabre2 but I want 2 b a stiletto brother with ya! I like your style BIG!

PD Recommends


(This post was edited by d123 on Jun 16, 2010, 9:23 AM)


LSD3rd  (A 11142)

Jun 16, 2010, 7:22 PM
Post #262 of 397 (1206 views)
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     Re: [jumpnaked69] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

Who's on Radio. Teach 4 landing priorities


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Jun 17, 2010, 4:50 AM
Post #263 of 397 (1141 views)
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     Re: [] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

I apologize for not being able to make a helpful post :(

It's just amazing how similar these sound http://www.dropzone.com/...ew_flat;post=3718663, though I am sure they are not the same person.

I think those two would make a great CRW team.


NickDG  (D 8904)

Jun 17, 2010, 6:38 AM
Post #264 of 397 (1119 views)
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     Re: [likestojump] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

LOL, as this guy makes his way through life I hope he keeps a good relationship with his dentist. I'm sure it'll come in handy . . .

NickD Smile


skydiverkeith

Jun 17, 2010, 8:00 AM
Post #265 of 397 (1085 views)
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     Re: [All] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

Ass bad as the posters attitude is, I would have to agree that a lightly loaded Stilleto is a pussy cat. I fly a Sabre 150, and have made ONE jump on a Stilleto 170. Knowing it was HP I set up earlier, made my turns more carefuly, played up high, and set it down just fine... ONE time.

However, with over 150 jumps on my Sabre, I still managed to twist my ankle on landing! Great flare straight into a 5-10mph headwind. Just set it down wrong I guess. I've also mis-judged when to let up on double fronts in a no wind situation and scared myself. No injury, just a long slide on my ass, but still enough to make me not want to downsize or go HP.

My point is this...

Even though I could probably grab a Stilleto 120 right now and set it down fine in good conditions, that's not what I'm worried about. What happens when I misjudge a double front in no wind on it, or stiupidly panic and turn low to avoid some asshole that cut me off?! I can see it now... He should have made a flat turn, but instead jerked a toggle. So sad. He'll be missed. Wasn't even his fault. That asshole cut him off. I probably won't die but call me a pussy, I don't even want a sprained ankle or grass stains on my beautiful container. I HATE CLEANING MY CONTAINER!

If I ever have the downsizing/HP bug, all I have to do is pull the shit out of one of my front risers, lol. I have a lot more respect for a low time jumper who thinks he's an exceptional canopy pilot and proves it by flying the shit out of his square, than the guy who rapidly downsizes/transitions.

Even so, I believe this is an individual sport where you set your own risk level. If you know its more dangerous and still want to do it, thats your perogative. Nobody should call him an idiot for jumping the Stilleto. Remember, this sport is all about safety second!


(This post was edited by skydiverkeith on Jun 17, 2010, 8:01 AM)


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Jun 17, 2010, 8:07 AM
Post #266 of 397 (1078 views)
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     Re: [EFS4LIFE] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I have said I did before. Stop being a moron.

Oh, I read the thread, and I honestly don't mind you calling me a moron. It's fine; after all, I'm calling you a liar.

(Either to us, or to PD - which is it?)

As regards debating the flight characteristics of a Stiletto loaded at 1:1... I've jumped a non-crossbraced eilliptical of that size compared to my weight. But you don't want to know what I thought of it... I'm just some guy on the internet.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 17, 2010, 8:34 AM
Post #267 of 397 (1059 views)
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     Re: [] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

Guys - he's apparently stayed away for a couple days now. I bet it's more useful at this point to stop hacking on him for the sake of learning than to keep it up.

And I think the message here for those that will take it to heart has been strongly made.


fun sport - we bring in all personality types and are richer for it


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 17, 2010, 8:36 AM)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jun 17, 2010, 8:41 AM
Post #268 of 397 (1053 views)
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     Re: [skydiverkeith] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Ass bad as the posters attitude is, I would have to agree that a lightly loaded Stilleto is a pussy cat.

Control sensitivity is mostly a function of the canopy shape, size, and line length not wing loading.

The Stiletto is more sensitive to toggle input than any other popular canopy. John LeBlanc detuned all the following PD designs including the Velocity and Katana because too many jumpers had problems with roll axis stability landing Stilettos.

Relatively small amounts of toggle input (whether intended or not) will quickly roll the canopy into a diving turn so you may end up headed at the ground fast in an unrecoverable attitude if you get surprised in the landing pattern (likely) or don't instinctively limit your control inputs when you get back low from a long spot.

That leads to issues like this where a guy with 480 jumps killed himself with a Stiletto 150 loaded to 1.2 pounds per square foot:

http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=3709212

In reply to:
I fly a Sabre 150, and have made ONE jump on a Stilleto 170. Knowing it was HP I set up earlier, made my turns more carefuly, played up high, and set it down just fine... ONE time.

Landing a parachute into a wide open field is not a big deal, even elliptical ones.

At dusk with a low turn to avoid unseen power lines to a down-wind landing on asphalt (think about what happens on the sunset load when the cute chicks flash the pilot for extra altitude and some one in your group gets hypoxic and gets their foot caught on the seatbelt so you take forever to climb out and have a long spot) it's a huge deal. Things seem to happen much faster and you may not stay flat enough in the turn to avoid a painful impact.

Avoiding that situation by flying larger less sensitive parachutes until you've built muscle memory is a wise idea.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Jun 17, 2010, 11:31 AM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 17, 2010, 8:50 AM
Post #269 of 397 (1039 views)
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     Re: [DrewEckhardt] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

In reply to:
flying larger less sensitive parachutes until you've built muscle memory is a wise idea.

what a great and productive comment!

a lot of newer jumpers hear the word "experience" and start to tune it out as just "time in sport" and quantity of jumps

REAL 'experience' is just that, the "muscle memory" - hopefully responses learned from correctly doing the techniques over and over (though we know a lot of high number jumpers that have a TON of incorrect repetitions also)

That's what most of us are asking aggressive new and good pilots to do when saying "get more jumps in play" - sure, they've done research and asked questions and got some coaching, etc (bravo). So they do 'know' what they are supposed to do, but only repetitions make the right responses more likely to be correct without thinking so the right actions also feel right and instinctive when it matters.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 17, 2010, 8:51 AM)


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jun 17, 2010, 8:51 AM
Post #270 of 397 (1037 views)
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     Re: [DrewEckhardt] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

It needs to be done....


IBTL







Hopefully, this will invoke the Gods of thread locking


scratch69  (F 1)

Jun 17, 2010, 9:05 AM
Post #271 of 397 (1031 views)
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     Re: [skydiverkeith] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

In reply to:

Even so, I believe this is an individual sport where you set your own risk level. If you know its more dangerous and still want to do it, thats your perogative. Nobody should call him an idiot for jumping the Stilleto. Remember, this sport is all about safety second!

Nice post but, this is NOT an individual sport. Its a community where everyone pays for one persons sins. If you biff in and die because your a hard-headed goof that wouldn't listen to reasoning, our sport looks bad yet again in the media. (they love the goofs) We all end up explaining, yet again, the strides that we've made over the years to make this sport safer and more accessible to the general public. It's still dangerous, but you can't argue that it hasn't evolved tremendously in the safety department over the decades. Unfortunately all of that is lost periodically from a bad newspaper article or worse yet, some biff video on YouTube.

There is a moral here. Canopy selection is not BLACK and WHITE. It is predominantly GREY. If it were black and white, we wouldn't be on here arguing. PD says one thing, Germain says one thing, USPA says one thing, a coach will say one thing, the S&TA will say one thing, the DZO will say one thing .... hell even your mom has an opinion. Who do you listen to ?? That's the grey area. And most fatalities don't happen in the black or white area, they happen in the grey area.

There is so much information out there, and some of it is contradicting, so you have to be a big boy (or girl) and make real responsible decisions in life that don't only take your thrill-seeking into account, but the safety and feelings of all of those around you.

If you are in this sport for the long haul, then start behaving like it. It didn't take me long to make my first 1000 jumps and even less time to make my next 1000. You'll get there.....or will you? Ask yourself that question ? Momma taught us about the tortoise and the hare, slow and steady wins the race. Take the time to learn from this sport, don't just become another line in the incidents forum. No one learns from the newbie, biff deaths anymore. We just stand around and poke at the body with a stick wondering why the hell they just wouldn't listen to reasoning.

Attached a little graphic for you.
Attachments: Canopy Selection Scale.JPG (41.5 KB)


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 17, 2010, 9:10 AM
Post #272 of 397 (1026 views)
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     Re: [Ron] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Seriously.... How many times do you think in 16+ years I have been jumping that I have seen guys acting EXACTLY like you?
Do you mean dead man walking?Wink


skydiverkeith

Jun 17, 2010, 11:12 AM
Post #273 of 397 (979 views)
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     Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

At DrewEckhardt,

Thanks for making my point much more articulately. The hypotheticals are why I'm sticking with my Sabre at 1:1.

At scratch69,

Good point. We need to do whats best for the sport, not ourselves. However, instead of telling someone who doesn't want to play it safe that they're idiots, we should simply inform them of the relevent dangers and then suggest if they still want to engage in overly risky behavior, they should seek a non-USPA(or other country's org) dz to make their jumps at.


scratch69  (F 1)

Jun 17, 2010, 11:19 AM
Post #274 of 397 (968 views)
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     Re: [skydiverkeith] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

In reply to:
At DrewEckhardt,

we should simply inform them of the relevent dangers and then suggest if they still want to engage in overly risky behavior, they should seek a non-USPA(or other country's org) dz to make their jumps at.

Sounds passive-aggressive. Not really my style and certainly not going to work on this hero. As you can see if you read through this long drawn-out thread, there were some "nice" attempts by some "nice" people to "kindly" inform him that what he was doing was dangerous to himself and to others.


skydiverkeith

Jun 17, 2010, 11:30 AM
Post #275 of 397 (959 views)
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     Re: [scratch69] Stilleto as a Student Canopy [In reply to]  

Got it. I think he may be done with this forum anyway, lol.

Some people don't like the truth, only personal validation. No matter what happens to him (though I hope it doesn't) I'll be just fine...


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