Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Flare turns and flat turns

 


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 10, 2006, 10:51 AM
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Flare turns and flat turns Can't Post

Scenario - you are on final, about 200 feet off the ground. You have planned your pattern well, and are going to land close to the peas, into the 3 knot wind. Suddenly you see someone swooping down in front of you. They have started a crosswind hook, and by your best judgement, they will hit you in a few seconds. What do you do?

The wrong answer is to pull down a toggle to avoid him. This will turn your parachute, but will also cause it to lose airspeed, because a turn is also in part a flare. It will also start to dive, since the lift that once held you up is now turning you instead. If you release the toggle, the parachute is now in a dive that it CANNOT immediately recover from because it doesn't have normal airspeed yet. This mistake kills a few people each year, and causes countless broken ankles and legs.

A slightly better (but still not great) answer is to not turn, or turn very gently with toggles. You may still miss him; the big sky-little parachute theory has saved a lot of people in this sport. It's better than a toggle turn, but it's not ideal.

The ideal way to avoid that oblivious jumper is to flat turn away from him - or, if you're too low for that, flare turn away. Below are some tips on doing those two things.

TYPES OF FLAT TURNS

A flat turn is basically a turn you can make with losing very little altitude, which is exactly what you want in an emergency like this. They are not hard to do, but absolutely must be practiced before you need them for real. There are two ways to do them - braked turns and true flat turns.

BRAKED TURNS

The good news about braked turns is that they are easy to do, and are now covered in the ISP. To do a braked turn, go to about half brakes (or whatever brake setting gives you minimum descent rate, just before a stall.) Then let one toggle up a little bit. This will allow the canopy to turn while descending very slowly. To stop the turn, bring that toggle back down to the same position. Now you are back at minimum descent rate. Try this a few times above 1000 feet to get a feel for how it works. Practice turning exactly 90 and then stopping on heading.

If you ever need to do this in a panic situation, immediately flare to that position. This will slow down the canopy and give you more time to think about it. Then let one toggle up a bit until you have turned just far enough to avoid the hazard, then go back to the flare position. IF, and only if, you have enough altitude, then you can let the toggles back up and flare normally. However, in most cases you are going to have to land with your brakes halfway down (i.e. in an accuracy approach) so prepare to do a very good PLF. You should NOT try to flare any more, since you have already brought the canopy to a near-stall.

BTW the braked turn is also a great way to dodge people shortly after opening, since going to half brakes slows you down so much.

FLAT TURNS

A true flat turn is a bit different, because it relies on the extra lift your canopy can generate. Your canopy has a limited amount of that extra lift available, and that comes from your available speed. To make the flattest possible turn you have to use that speed to get as much lift as possible - changing your direction requires lift just as keeping you in the air does. To start a flat turn, pull down one toggle then _immediately_ follow through with the other one. If you go to half brakes before you start the turn, you lose some of that speed (and available lift) and thus you can't make as flat a turn.

To practice flat turns try the following: (all above 1000 feet of course)

1. Toggle turn your canopy, then let go of the toggle. Note the resulting dive and notice how your canopy is now going faster. This is too fast to exit a flat turn.

2. Now flare your canopy and release the toggles suddenly. Note how the canopy sort of "pauses" for a second then dives to recover its lost airspeed. This is too slow to exit a flat turn.

3. Start a toggle turn and immediately follow with a little opposite toggle. Continue with the opposite toggle until you've straightened out and the canopy is over your head again. At this point release both toggles. If you came out too fast, try again with more opposite toggle. If you came out too slow, try again with _less_ opposite toggle. Once you get to the point where you exit with normal flying speed you're in good shape. That means that after you flat turn, if you find yourself at 10 feet, you can immediately flare and get a normal landing. This is the main difference between a braked turn and a flat turn, and can be important if you have a high performance canopy that cannot be safely landed with an accuracy approach (i.e. what happens with a braked turn.)

FLARE TURNS

All the above can help you if the guy cuts you off at 200 feet. But what if he appears heading straight at you after you have started to flare? In that case, you have to flare turn. To do this, flare the same as you always do, but flare slightly more with one hand than the other. This starts a turn. Before your feet touch down you _must_ stop the turn by continuing to flare and by bringing the _other_ hand down farther. The objective is to start the turn with one hand, then keep flaring, and use the other hand to get the canopy back over your head before your feet touch the ground.

This is a useful trick for dodging people who are about to hit you, or whuffos who end up standing in front of you - or even dodging that broken bottle you didn't see until the last second. Learning flare turns is also an excellent way to improve your landings. Many jumpers "stick out their hand to break their fall" during the flare, which of course turns them hard in that direction. Learning to turn yourself cures you of this, because you learn to automatically compensate for that tendency.

Some tips on doing flare turns:

1. Start the flare going straight, with both hands coming down the same amount.

2. At some point bring one toggle a little lower than the other. Resist the urge to stick that hand out to "protect yourself."

3. Once you turn even a little, continue the flare by bringing the _other_ toggle lower. This will straighten you out.

4. End with your feet touching down with the toggles both pulled down the same amount. Don't give up when your feet touch - keep flying the canopy until you've stopped and all your weight is on your feet.

Flare turns can be practiced above 1000 feet, and should be done at that altitude until the jumper is comfortable getting the canopy back over his head. Unfortunately there are no ground references at 1000 feet, and the difference between a good flare turn and a bad one can be two feet. At some point you have to try it during the flare, five feet above the ground. The key to not getting hurt is to start _slowly_ - ten degrees is more than enough turn to start with.


QSilver2005  (B 2555)

Mar 10, 2006, 11:10 AM
Post #2 of 31 (8124 views)
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Awesome post! Thanks B for sharing this!

Another bit of information to add to the basket that can save some bones.


AFFI  (D 25538)

Mar 10, 2006, 12:33 PM
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

 Bill, thank you so much for posting this most thorough and informative dissertation. A lot of this information I know and teach but you have not only taught me a few other aspects of these techniques but offered explanations that I have not quite heard put this way. I am not going to make any comments to the contents or clarifications or enlightenments at this moment due to the fact that this essay requires that I sit down and give this information very close attention and consideration. Not exactly FJC material but perhaps something every A license holder should be familiar with and practiced to some extent, ergo way up there.

One fact I would like to reemphasize to any skydivers deciding to attempt any of these maneuvers low to the ground in a live fire exercise is to please practice a lot with the kind of altitude that is friendly. Bill, you advised above 1,000 feet which is safety oriented, just dont forget one thing kids, you will be landing soon. Dont forget that by 1,000 AGL you should be in position in the sky that is a favorable position to begin your landing pattern, remain altitude and traffic aware and KNOW THY STALL POINT!

Hats off Bill for a most excellent article, thank you.


Mae it a great day,


Orange1  (B 2638)

Mar 10, 2006, 12:37 PM
Post #4 of 31 (8068 views)
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

I suggest this article be added to the "Safety" section of the site so it doesn't get "lost".

Thanks Bill.


uponone  (B 2829)

Mar 10, 2006, 2:26 PM
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been told that a rear riser turn is good to use in a low altitude - avoidance situation as it acts just like a flat turn but requires less "feel" then a toggle flat turn. What are your thoughts on this?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 10, 2006, 2:35 PM
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Re: [uponone] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

>I have been told that a rear riser turn is good to use in a low altitude - avoidance situation . . .

I would tend to disagree there. You have your toggles in your hand, so they're really easy to use quickly. The last thing you need to be doing just before a collision is trying to get a good grip on a rear riser.

What you may be thinking of is that _during_opening_ you can steer your canopy with rear risers before it is 100% open, and before you release the brakes. This can help if you open very close to someone. For this to work you have to have your hands on your risers as the canopy starts opening.

Now, that being said, learning to use rear risers to land is something most swoopers do eventually, and knowing how to use rear risers close to the ground will give you one more trick to put in your bag, so it's definitely worthwhile to know. But I wouldn't make it your primary way to avoid someone down low.


uponone  (B 2829)

Mar 10, 2006, 4:10 PM
Post #7 of 31 (7990 views)
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I would tend to disagree there. You have your toggles in your hand, so they're really easy to use quickly. The last thing you need to be doing just before a collision is trying to get a good grip on a rear riser.

Very good point buuuuut say your hands were already on your rear risers, would a rear riser flat turn lose less altitude than a toggle flat turn?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 10, 2006, 4:24 PM
Post #8 of 31 (7983 views)
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Re: [uponone] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

>Very good point buuuuut say your hands were already on your rear
> risers, would a rear riser flat turn lose less altitude than a toggle flat turn?

I don't know. I've tried rear riser flat turns, but I never really compared the two in terms of altitude loss. However, based on my experiences with it I think that a rear riser turn would be:

-harder to learn
-harder to pull off under pressure
-more likely to stall the canopy during the turn


uponone  (B 2829)

Mar 10, 2006, 5:49 PM
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, you sparked many questions that I will ask tomorrow at safety day.


azureriders  (D 28830)

Mar 10, 2006, 7:04 PM
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill,

I have read your canopy check list article in the safety section of DZ.com. I have been planning to begin working on this as soon as I get my own gear, which I will have in the next few weeks.

Two weeks ago the winds were a little gusty/squirrelly and blowing just below my personal cut off. I was watching them extremely close all day as well as asking my old Instructors for their opinion of me jumping them.

My third jump of the day I was on final, going to land 20ft or so off to the right side of another jumper chaining his lines on the ground. As I was getting fairly low I caught a gust or something and very quickly drifted to the left, putting me on a direct collision course with Bill.

My course of action was to apply a slight amount of right toggle; just enough to leave Bill untouched and hopefully keep the canopy over my head. At about 20ft off the ground my heading was clear of Bill and my hands were up, but all of a sudden my decent rate increased very quickly. I immediately flared hard and fast but as my hands reached my waist my feet had already met the ground and began my PLF.

At first read I know this sounds like a diving canopy, but the amount of right toggle was very slight and others watching said it did not look as if the canopy was diving at all, maybe another rouge gust was the comment made more than once????????

I know a flat turn would have been better here but as I have not practiced them I decided not to attempt one for the first time, under pressure.

Questions:

1. Given my experience, should I have tried a flat turn based on what I have read about them? (It did cross my mind at the time)

2. Given my course of action, should I have toggled left and went 'with' the drift instead of fighting against the drift? (the air and ground was clear in both cases and also crossed my mind, but at the time going with the drift, was in my mind like going 'with' the wind)

3. In my case I am sure I had plenty of altitude to perform a 10 degree flat turn and miss Bill, but if I would have been a little lower would I have been better to break turn and PLF into the Accuracy Approach, or wait a bit longer and flare turn to a stand up landing? (I think I know this one but thought it good for conversation)

4. I have also read some of Brian Germans works and believe that airspeed is important in turbulent areas. Given the wind conditions of my example, how much danger does braked/flat/flare turns put you in, in regard to collapse in turbulence.

Obvious answers to some other questions:

1. Practice up high before this happens and you need it.

2. Don't be landing with in 20ft of someone when you know the winds are not favorable. (Our landing area is no less than huge)

I plan on asking all these questions Tomorrow at Safety Day, but thought it would be good to get some input here as well and I thought it relevant to this awesome thread. Hope this fuels more discussion, for the good of us all.


mattjw916  (D License)

Mar 10, 2006, 7:22 PM
Post #11 of 31 (7926 views)
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Re: [uponone] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to add to the good info that Billvon posted... rear riser turns vary from canopy to canopy. I know my particular canopy (a mildly aggressive elliptical) tends to want to bank on the roll-axis more than turn flat-ish when you do a rear riser turn. Consequently it is a good idea to make your bail-out flat turn with toggles IMHO. Hitting the brakes so to speak will give you more time to react since you are arresting both your forward drive and your decent rate when you pull down on both toggles and give slight input left or right to "flat turn" the canopy.

Just my $0.02. Have fun at Safety Day!!! Cool


chri

Mar 10, 2006, 7:44 PM
Post #12 of 31 (7915 views)
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Bill for this great posting.
Hard to remember when you have never tried it and you need it!
I have had to make a flat turn the first time approx 100 ft. Im on final, look down at the landing area , look up. Shit, whats this? A canopy on the right side coming straight against me. The following things were more brainstorming than thinking about it: I need only 5-10 feet to the left. Left toggle, get away from here (other canopy passed at this moment). Right toggle, dont let the canopy dive too much at this height. Some altitude left, gently let the toggles up, gain up a little speed for my final flare.
There was not very much energy left for the flare but i ended up only pissed about the grass strains on the leg straps of my brand new rig.Mad
I wished i had tried this turn you describe up high before.

btw, beer was free at this eveningWink


(This post was edited by chri on Mar 10, 2006, 7:56 PM)


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Mar 12, 2006, 8:44 AM
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Re: [uponone] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

I would also go with toggles instead of risers here. After a turn with the risers the canopy will dive and the control range on rears is short enough that you will be hard pressed to avoid a stall and try to minimize decent rate at the same time.

Toggles are there to save your ass, so practice on them. The toggles should never leave your hands so I doubt much time would be lost in starting a braked turn as soon as you see trouble.

Try it for yourself up high, but my vote is definetly for toggles.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 12, 2006, 6:52 PM
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Re: [azureriders] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

>1. Given my experience, should I have tried a flat turn based on what
>I have read about them? (It did cross my mind at the time)

I generally recommend you never make a flat turn at 100 feet in an emergency situation unless you have first made a successful practice turn at 100 feet. If you haven't practiced them yet, a braked turn is safer, and going straight ahead is (generally) safer still.

>2. Given my course of action, should I have toggled left and went
>'with' the drift instead of fighting against the drift?

Depends. If that results in you landing downwind, you may not want to attempt that unless winds are light. But if it's a small turn, and winds are light, probably no harm in landing 20 degrees off the wind line. (Which BTW is the perfect time for a flare turn to get back into the wind!)

>3. In my case I am sure I had plenty of altitude to perform a 10
>degree flat turn and miss Bill, but if I would have been a little lower
>would I have been better to break turn and PLF into the Accuracy
>Approach, or wait a bit longer and flare turn to a stand up landing?

The ideal is to flat turn away, straighten out, land normally and flare turn back into the wind. That takes a _lot_ of practice though. At the stage you're at, a braked turn and a PLF would probably produce the best results.

>4. I have also read some of Brian Germans works and believe that
>airspeed is important in turbulent areas.

Brian and I disagree on this a bit. I think that speed can increase the canopy's rigidity, but that near the ground, speed can be your enemy. Speed also makes turbulence more violent. I recommend flying at normal airspeed with some tension on the brakes so you can better feel the canopy. If the canopy really does collapse (i.e. some lines or the brakes actually go slack) then immediately go to 1/4 to 1/2 brakes to get a good chance at reinflation.

Note that during a flat turn, airspeed doesn't change much, so it shouldn't be any better or worse than normal flight.

Often, what people call a canopy 'collapse' is just the canopy weathervaning into wind gusts and surging forward/rearing back as airspeeds change due to minor wind shears. Best to fly the canopy through these sorts of minor upsets - add a bit of brake if it surges ahead (but anticipate that you will get more lift!) turn the canopy back into the wind if it turns away.


Extrakt  (B 5926)

Mar 16, 2006, 7:37 AM
Post #15 of 31 (7481 views)
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Re: [uponone] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

This article by Jonny Utah goes into why toggles are better than risers for emergency stuff. Check it out, good read.

http://miller28.server101.com/...risersortoggles.html


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Mar 16, 2006, 9:40 AM
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That's BASE stuff. Different environment, different hazards.

I don't think thats really relevant in skydiving.


tbrown  (D 6533)

Mar 16, 2006, 9:08 PM
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

The flat turns really work very nicely. I started practicing them last year, after reading some of Bill's other articles and posts on the subject. And then a flat turn saved my bacon. I was on final and getting pretty close to the ground when another canopy flew up alongside and started crowding me, enough that I yelled at the guy. He then looked me right in the eye and cut directly across my flight path. The first thing I thought was "Do NOT bury a toggle!". Then I gave my right toggle just a little tug and immediately matched it with the left toggle. I slipped neatly around and behind the a-hole who had just cut me off and in another moment had to flare - there was no time to raise the toggles back up. The flare wasn't perfect, but was still pretty decent and I stood up a landing that was just a little harder than I'd ordinarily like to have. The a-hole was looking nervously over his shoulder at me as he scooped up his canopy, then he RAN like hell - he knew what he'd done.

But the turn worked beautifully. All I'd like to add is that it doesn't take much of a course correction to miss somebody. If you miss somebody by six feet, it's as good as sixty. You don't need a dramatic turn, just enough to not thump into them.


AFFI  (D 25538)

Mar 16, 2006, 9:39 PM
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Re: [tbrown] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The flat turns really work very nicely. I started practicing them last year, after reading some of Bill's other articles and posts on the subject. And then a flat turn saved my bacon.
The first thing I thought was "Do NOT bury a toggle!".

Bravo! Stood it up and everything!

"Do NOT bury a toggle!" indeed. I miss someone with lots of "time" in the sport who never learned the full range of canoy piloting and is dead because of it. Glad you did...

I have been able to enjoy the benifit of lots of practice up high when the chips were down close to the ground as well, just how to encourage others?

What a great posting!

Thanks dude...


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Mar 17, 2006, 12:06 AM
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for this, Bill!

Any chance of making it sticky, or a post in the Safety section?


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Mar 17, 2006, 1:09 AM
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, billyvon. This reminds me. I need to practice these again.

I've done a few crosswind and flare turn landings as practice last year, but now I'm feeling uncurrent on these. I can't wait for the skydiving season to start up here in Canada... Unsure

A high hop-n-pop is warranted.


chachi  (B 3406)

Mar 22, 2006, 1:49 PM
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Re: [mdrejhon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

i do not think this belongs as information for skydives. in fact with the altitude that we have and the fact that nobody in skydiving has big grab toggles a riser is the best collison avoidance in my opinion.


(This post was edited by chachi on Mar 22, 2006, 1:50 PM)


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Mar 22, 2006, 2:38 PM
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Re: [chachi] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i do not think this belongs as information for skydives. in fact with the altitude that we have and the fact that nobody in skydiving has big grab toggles a riser is the best collison avoidance in my opinion.

Flat turns are primarily useful when you're down low and need to make a turn. In the skydiving envrionment, you should have your toggles in your hands at all times, meaning that we don't need BASE-style big grab toggles.

Or am I misunderstanding you?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 22, 2006, 2:49 PM
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Re: [chachi] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

>in fact with the altitude that we have and the fact that nobody
>in skydiving has big grab toggles . . .

What are big grab toggles?

We start with lots of altitude. But we have to land at an altitude of 0 feet AGL, so we all go through that potentially deadly 200 to 0 foot range. When a near-collision happens at 2000 feet, you have plenty of altitude to recover from a turn. When it happens at 200 feet, you don't - which is why you need to know how to turn low.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Mar 22, 2006, 2:56 PM
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>in fact with the altitude that we have and the fact that nobody
>in skydiving has big grab toggles . . .

What are big grab toggles?

BASE toggles - kinda like those used in CReW, making them much easier to grab when object avoidance is a timely and pressing issue.


(This post was edited by bob.dino on Mar 22, 2006, 3:04 PM)


chachi  (B 3406)

Mar 22, 2006, 5:33 PM
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Re: [bob.dino] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

you are misunderstanding my post. collision avoidance usually happens on opening therefore we should be using risers to turn

the rest of the info on flare and flat turns is especially useful stuff for people to learn if they want to increase their survival odds in bad places down low.

i was not saying this thread is useless, in fact i preach this. just saying posting johnny utahs collision avoidance ideas are.


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Mar 23, 2006, 7:33 PM
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We start with lots of altitude. But we have to land at an altitude of 0 feet AGL, so we all go through that potentially deadly 200 to 0 foot range.
Sometime ago at a dropzone I was jumping at, for a very brief moment, one planeload landed in 3 different directions when the windsock started randomly flying in all directions (zero wind with minor intermittent gusts). Two landing directions apparently happened near the pea gravel, and a separate direction for the swoopers 100 feet away. I flat turned at about 150 feet altitude to a parallel ramair runway 100 feet away from another guy landing in the opposite direction. I wondered if I did something wrong... Had I not flat turned at about 150 feet, our ramair parallel runways would have been only about 30-40 feet apart, a bit too close for comfort for opposite-direction landers... so it wasn't a head-on collision course originally but I wanted more space for myself. It was definitely a tense "air traffic" moment for a newbie like me. Full recovery and still had 100% flare with a great soft landing otherwise.

Needless to say, DZO took down the spare pea-gravel windsock (there were backup windsocks elsewhere), this is the indicator to tell everyone to land in a specific compass direction, usually east-to-west. That solved the problem.

Some of us, myself included, got some reminders about the dangers of chasing the windsock (an important lesson).


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Mar 23, 2006, 7:40 PM)


flyinghonu  (A 45403)

Mar 23, 2006, 7:37 PM
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Re: [mdrejhon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Geez - that would scare the shit out of me Crazy

I guess this is why some DZs have the first one down rule.


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Mar 23, 2006, 7:41 PM
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Re: [flyinghonu] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I guess this is why some DZs have the first one down rule.
Just want to be clear...

Yes, it did scare me for a moment.

And yes, that's what we had too about "first one down", but two non-swoopers (me included) landed nearly simultaneously somewhere in the non-swooper field in opposite directions. This was a one-time thing affecting just one plane load on one dropzone visit. It happens to pretty much all dropzones occasionally, it appears (even if it's just once a year), even if there are no near-collisions imment, just opposing landing directions somewhere in the same landing field -- be ready for it, simply... Never have been any perfect dropzone, ever...

The swoopers have their own separate ramair runway grass strip adjacent to the main landing area (At that time, they were landing crosswind relative to the windsock direction I decided on, and another jumper decided 180 degrees).

There was no other problems earlier in the day or later in the day -- just for that one specific planeload when the windsock started going beserk. There were two of us that kind of chased the windsock (myself included). It wasn't exactly clear who was the first non-swooper down, and that may have been my fault as well. But nobody placed a fault on a specific person, and the matter was solved immediately for the next load by switching to compass landing mode as it was near zero wind anyway.

It only happened once for me but it was a learning experience for myself (and probably at least one or two others.) The first-one-down rule was reminded to me too, but they recognized the special circumstance of a confusion of two simultaneous landings (And simultaneously distinguishing swoopers from non-swoopers), and a windsock going beserk so I wasn't "singled out"

But it's my real life use of a slight flat turn (just 10 degrees or so). I knew how to flat turn and it gave me "more space" which was important to me after I found myself in that situation. I stress, no collision was imminent, but with a minor 10 degree flat turn, I turned it from something "too close for a newbie's comfort" into something with a lot more safety margin than there otherwise was.

It was removal of only ONE windsock only -- as an indicator that the main field is in compass landing mode. Declared compass landing mode is quite safe (safer than a randomly dancing windsock) on weak/zero wind days. For the rest of the day, the other windsock was pointing straight down (zerowind). I simply doublechecked that other windsock to make sure landing on the compass was still safe to me. I could land in any direction I want if I wanted to land in an alternate fields, all a healthy distance away (lots of landing areas and adjacent outs, more grass landing fields than there are individual jumpers!) so I am not necessarily forced to do an unsafe compass landing if it suddenly became strong wind later in the day while we were still in compass landing mode ...

One lesson I learned is that if I ever become confused again about landing direction (dancing windsock and the first-ones-down is not clear) -- simply land in a separate landing field away from traffic.

P.S. This is just my experiences. This varies from dropzone to dropzone. I'm still a 100-plus jump newbie with less than double the jumps you have. Your/instructor rules may be different... (disclaimer, disclaimer...)


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Mar 23, 2006, 8:26 PM)


Divalent  (C 40494)

Jan 1, 2012, 1:58 PM
Post #29 of 31 (633 views)
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Re: [billvon] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm bumping this (the OP, not the followup comments) since it was one of the many excellent posts I found early in my training that helped me sort out and understand an important aspect of controling my canopy, particular as a newbie, and I found myself seaching for it recently to refresh my understanding of low level turns.

On a related note: does anyone else think it would be a great idea if Dave Lepka and Bill Von and a few others of the most prolific and best writers and teachers/explainers here would cull through the archives and package up their best in single comprehensive book? With a good editor, it would be the skydiving bible that (IMO) this sport needs. Most of the important stuff has already been written, it would just be a matter of hunting it down and integrating it into an organized whole.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jan 3, 2012, 6:59 AM
Post #30 of 31 (498 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Guys as a N00B this was a great thread! Thank you!


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Jan 4, 2012, 4:29 PM
Post #31 of 31 (399 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Flare turns and flat turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for bringing this thread back.



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