Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Stalling my canopy

 


glyrenden  (B 48926)

Feb 16, 2006, 12:07 AM
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Stalling my canopy Can't Post

OK, so I search through the forums and found a little info but not the answers I want. so I thought that I would just ask you all. first things first, I intend to talk to my instructors about this but I would still like to get your answers.

1. is it safe to stall the chute? when I learned to fly airplanes we stalled the plane alot to learn what an approaching stall felt like. is it ok to stall the chute up high to learn?

2. I'm currently flying a saber 2 210 and I'm 175lbs + gear. How will this canopy stall? I've read that some bow in the middle others end cells colaspe.

3. how high would you recommend that I be to try stalling? I normally pull at around 5000. mostly because I like to play under canopy. should I plan to pull even higher?

Thank in advance for the answers.
-Jason


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Feb 16, 2006, 12:33 AM
Post #2 of 65 (4901 views)
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

1. It depends. I've stalled a big, 250+ sqft on low WL with spring loaded PC several time up high without any problem.

2. I donno. You might try it :). You might use your reserve in worst case.Wink

3. Over your hard deck, not in the way of traffic. Over 800m-1000m.

You are on the right track. How would you know how stall is if you never tried?


rasmack  (D 647)

Feb 16, 2006, 1:26 AM
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

You may need to wrap the steering lines several times around your hands to get that canopy to stall. Be sure to talk to your instructors about how to do this (or not do it) safely.


pincheck  (C 105040)

Feb 16, 2006, 3:30 AM
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

get a brief from your instructor before doing a canopy stall as he will be able to point out what will happen and how to deal with it, but knowing your stall point on a canopy is a good thing.Smile


darkwing  (D 4164)

Feb 16, 2006, 3:51 AM
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Stall practice is part of most canopy control classes. It certainly was in Scott Miller's class. Some high performance canopies he would recommend you not do stalls, but a sabre2 is fine for stalls. I recommend you do it, but I'm a nobody. Get some coaching on the details.


lilchief  (D 78149)

Feb 16, 2006, 4:45 AM
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

A tip:

When it stalls, don't let your arms fly high immediatly. That will cause the canopy to surge forward and dive, and you'll eat up a lot of altitude to recover control and the canopy may do funky things(During a demo on a S2 190, to center cells collapsed due to this for 5-7 seconds and started a medium turnCrazy). Raise your toggles up a few inches to when you feel you get the same control as on deep brakes. Your instructors can fill you in on the details, since I'm not an instructor and my english is crappy.Wink


Reginald  (D 28162)

Feb 16, 2006, 5:28 AM
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

As an instructor if I had a student with 15 jumps come up to me and say he got advice on how to stall a canopy on the internet I’d be mortified.

Scott Miller (who’s class I suggest to everyone) has a 5 step progression in learning about a canopy. Toggle and rear riser stalls are part of that progression.

Do you know the effect on flight of front and rear risers, do you know what surging the canopy does? Have you finished all the canopy control items on you “A” license card? If not than your ahead of yourself with wanting to stall a canopy.

You should be getting canopy coaching as part of your “A” license. Tell your instructors your desire to stall your canopy and let them build a progression path for you.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 16, 2006, 5:36 AM
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Not to be an asshat or anything but at 15 jumps you have a LOT to learn about your canopy before you get involved with stalls.

Don't try to outfly your ass.


John4455  (D 22657)

Feb 16, 2006, 6:43 AM
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

My first jump on my pilot 150, I pulled really high to put it through the ringer. I gave it a deep stall and coming out of it, it spun up on me about 6 or 8 times. I had major line twist to kick out of.


glyrenden  (B 48926)

Feb 16, 2006, 7:39 AM
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Re: Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks guys, I know that I am most likely getting ahead of myself. I guess I want to find out more about stalling because I don't know how the chute will react to a stall, so in turn it scares me a little. (insert tuff guy cover up here) it was the same way when I was learning to fly airplanes. stalls were very unnerving, till I did one and realized that when the wing stops flying it is manageable. I'm getting the Idea that it is simaler in parachuting. I am planing to take more advanced canopy control classes. so not to fret I am taking this advice as nothing more then advice I will talk to my instructors (today hopefully) and build a plan. I just want to learn this not to just play with it but so I feel safer under the canopy. and your experience is a great learning tool.

Thanks again guys
Jason


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 16, 2006, 8:20 AM
Post #11 of 65 (4720 views)
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

 
If you can pull your toggles down as far as you can reach, and the canopy does not stall, you're pretty safe from an unintentional stall, and may not be getting 100% of the flare performance. So it's good and maybe a little bad (just maybe, and only a little).

That, said, you jump at one of the top DZ on earth. Ask for some help there. Maybe book a canopy coach for an hour, and get some ground training. Do a hop n pop, try some stalls, and have the coach critic your landing. It should be cheap and well worth the price.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Feb 16, 2006, 9:48 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you can pull your toggles down as far as you can reach, and the canopy does not stall, you're pretty safe from an unintentional stall, and may not be getting 100% of the flare performance.

I have the same with my Pilot150. I can fly as long in deep breaks as I want to. I have soft landings too. I get not get my breaks shorten I would pull some breaks in front riser turns.


DJL  (C License)

Feb 16, 2006, 9:53 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Not to be an asshat or anything but at 15 jumps you have a LOT to learn about your canopy before you get involved with stalls.

Do you think this is a matter of not being able to handle the canopy or the ability of someone with 15 jumps to gauge the traffic/altitude and determine that it's safe for everyone else?


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Feb 16, 2006, 10:02 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

I've played with stall during my SL jumps from 1200-1500.
Why not? I was told to do so.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 16, 2006, 10:07 AM
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks guys, I know that I am most likely getting ahead of myself. I guess I want to find out more about stalling because I don't know how the chute will react to a stall....I am planing to take more advanced canopy control classes. so not to fret I am taking this advice as nothing more then advice I will talk to my instructors (today hopefully) and build a plan.

This is very good to hear.

As for the stall, what you will feel is that you will stop moving forwards. You'll feel a loss of weight on your leg straps and begin to fall backwards...and it will probably scare the shit out of you.

Your canopy will do one of several different things depending on chute type and size, air currents, how quickly you stall it, and just plain chance. Some of those things are bad - your instructor will explain.

The first time I did a stall, I released slam-bang quick because it scared the shit out of me and the canopy surged and I saw the horizon WAY above the tail of the chute - and this was on a 190 Triathlon.

After you get the hang of it, it becomes fun but really not something you want to do an a daily basis tempting fate.


DJL  (C License)

Feb 16, 2006, 12:33 PM
Post #16 of 65 (4617 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
After you get the hang of it, it becomes fun but really not something you want to do an a daily basis tempting fate.

What fate is he tempting? I do this all the time. I usually have to tell my arms out loud to stay at my hips. They get scared and want to go back to a normal parachute.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 16, 2006, 12:39 PM
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Re: [rasmack] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You may need to wrap the steering lines several times around your hands to get that canopy to stall. Be sure to talk to your instructors about how to do this (or not do it) safely.

Wrapping the steering lines around your hands several times may make it very hard to release them if you need to cutaway. You might need to cutaway if you let the toggles up too fast after stalling, this can cause such a quick turn that you can get severe line twists.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Feb 16, 2006, 3:10 PM
Post #18 of 65 (4573 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not to be an asshat or anything but at 15 jumps you have a LOT to learn about your canopy before you get involved with stalls.

I did my first intentional canopy stall at about 15 jumps. To get an A licence in Australia, you need to complete a canopy handling table, which includes static & dynamic stall recovery.

If properly briefed, I fail to see the problem. Now's exactly the right time to start learning about the performance envelope of the canopy. Up high, of course.


(This post was edited by bob.dino on Feb 16, 2006, 3:21 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 16, 2006, 3:41 PM
Post #19 of 65 (4564 views)
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Re: [DJL] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you think this is a matter of not being able to handle the canopy or the ability of someone with 15 jumps to gauge the traffic/altitude and determine that it's safe for everyone else?

Both

In reply to:
What fate is he tempting? ...

Folding up the canopy for good and having to cutaway and all the other bad shit that "could" happen.
John4455 (read above) got caught on only one of the several possible outcomes.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 16, 2006, 3:47 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 16, 2006, 3:55 PM
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Re: [bob.dino] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...I did my first intentional canopy stall at about 15 jumps. To get an A licence in Australia, you need to complete a canopy handling table, which includes static & dynamic stall recovery.

Congrats, Dave. I'm sure there's someone out there who has done it in less jumps - not good IMHO. I would not recommend everybody doing so at 15 jumps. I am part of the "slower progression" school of thought.

In reply to:
.If properly briefed...

I think that has already been addressed with several comments about "talk to your instructor." 15 jumps is not a magical number for anyone to start anything. It is an indicator of inexperience, though.

You will get a more definitive answer from Brian Germain, if that's what you are looking for.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 16, 2006, 4:01 PM)


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Feb 16, 2006, 5:06 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone in Australia who holds an A licence has stalled their canopy. I think you're overestimating the danger of stalling a large lightly-loaded square canopy.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 16, 2006, 5:21 PM
Post #22 of 65 (4529 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Could be...so what do you want to hear?
Something like, "I will lower my standards on safety?"

Thanks, but no.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Feb 16, 2006, 6:20 PM
Post #23 of 65 (4520 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Could be...so what do you want to hear?
Something like, "I will lower my standards on safety?"

is it really a lowering?

BTW, Brian has people try to do that on their first jump in his weekend course, if only to see if it would stall or not. As might be expected, my rental was happy to fly slowly at full toggle (w/o wraps).


Genn  (D 22590)

Feb 16, 2006, 7:40 PM
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Jason,

On The Ranch's website, under the student corner section of the website, there is an article that may or may not answer some of your questions.

http://www.skydivetheranch.com/stall.htm

HOW TO DETERMINE THE STALL POINT OF A PARACHUTE

Before we discuss how to find the stall point of a parachute let's define Stall Point and what happens to a parachute when it stalls.

The Stall Point of a parachute can be described as the point when the parachute is no longer producing Lift. This is caused by an excessive Angle of Attack. Angle of Attack is often defined as the angle between the cord line (a straight line between the leading edge and the trailing edge of a parachute)and the Relative Wind.

When a Standard Ram Air Sport Type Parachute opens properly its shape is typically rectangular or elliptical. The cells of the parachute are inflated with air. These cells will normally remain inflated as long as the Angle of Attack has not been exceeded.

A simple way to Stall or exceed the Angle of Attack of a parachute while airborne is to Pull Down on Both Steering Toggles at the same time till the Parachute Deflates or Collapses.

It is important that Skydivers be able to recognize when a parachute is approaching its Stall Point, How to Stall, and How to Recover from a Stall.

To find the point where a parachute is approaching its Stall Point:

1. Check to see that the parachute is working properly

2. Check that you are clear of other traffic

3. Check that your location and heading will allow you to land safely

4. Check that your altitude (2500 feet the first time) is sufficient to recover

5. With steering toggles in each hand, pull them smoothly down together while looking up at the bottom skin of the parachute. As you approach the Stall Point, the bottom skin of the parachute will start to wrinkle.

6. Look to see where your hands are, this position should not be exceeded for the Landing Flare, to do so may cause the parachute to Deflate or Collapse


To Stall the parachute ( refer to above 1 thru 5 on approaching the Stall Point), then continue to pull down both steering toggles till Collapse or Deflation occurs. Standard 9 Cell parachutes when Stalled will normally turn initially, then with further deflation the corners of the tail will touch each other and the parachute will descend at a higher than normal rate. It is Important to note that Skydive The Ranch sets the Steering Toggles on the Main Parachutes so they are difficult to Stall, while the Reserve Parachutes are set to manufactures limits and will normally Stall if the Steering Toggles are pull down too far.

To Recover a Stalled Parachute, smoothly return both steering toggles to the half brake position (Some high performance parachutes may have difficulty reinflating properly once stalled due to severe self induced line twist. Always check the manufactures operating instructions before attempting to stall a parachute.) If Stall recovery techniques are done too quickly, it increases the parachutes tendency to surge forward ahead of the skydiver. If this happens close to the ground, the parachute and the skydivers body can hit the ground at approximately the same time. This type of landing is normally refereed to as a Face Plant or Full Body Slam.


Hope this helps.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Feb 16, 2006, 9:01 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Could be...so what do you want to hear?
Something like, "I will lower my standards on safety?"

I'm not lowering my standards on safety. I'm saying that stalling your canopy in controlled conditions gives you the tools you need to avoid doing it unexpectedly. At, for example, 20ft.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 16, 2006, 9:36 PM
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Re: [bob.dino] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Some of the tools, yes, I totally agree with you there, Dave.

But to do it just for the hell of it (as one poster hinted at) and at low jump numbers when you aren't even comfortable yet with landing it in perfect conditions and not yet really comfortable with even being under a good canopy? I dunno.....still a proponent of slow, gradual progression.

Another poster brought up a good point about not being able to stall a student canopy and that's usually the case (unless you take wraps, of course) so at least that eliminates one potential source of low-altitude stalls and that feature of student canopies is there for a reason, wouldn't you think?

Look...think and do what you want. For me, it's simple.
Learn your canopy but don't out-fly your ass doing it.

As for the original poster, as has been said many times already, he should be talking to his instructors. They will know his capabilities much better than either you or I.


Nuff said, thanks.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 16, 2006, 9:48 PM)


shermanator  (B License)

Feb 16, 2006, 11:25 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

After reading about stalls in SIM, i had asked one of my instructers about it, what it looks like and such, he told me that it would be nearly impossible to stall the canapy i was under using breaks, but possibly would stall with rear risers. *good thing at this point i didnt have any experience with rear riser controls, or i probly would have tried it. .. now, when i learned about rear riser control, i had been having fun witht them. butg one time, i pulled both to a flare, felt a sudden change in my velocity, looked up at my canopy and saw what the begining of a stall looks like. seeing the tail going under the rest of the canopy scared me, so i quickly let up the risers and was relieved when i finally felt the canapy acting 'normal'. .. thats my story.

I agree with both sides on this, i think it is crazy for us newbies to be trying to intentionally stall, but at the same time, i think it is an important thing to experience/know how to handle early on so it does not surprise you later.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 17, 2006, 5:00 AM
Post #28 of 65 (1322 views)
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Re: [shermanator] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...I agree with both sides on this, i think it is crazy for us newbies to be trying to intentionally stall, but at the same time, i think it is an important thing to experience/know how to handle early on so it does not surprise you later.

Good stuff.
With a top-knotch evaluator and instructor/teacher who knows (or can realistically evaluate) your flying skills you can go for it...just listen to him/her, be careful and don't let ego be your driving force.

Congrats.


RossDagley  (C 950932)

Feb 17, 2006, 6:23 AM
Post #29 of 65 (1315 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting. I came off AFF (completed in 5 jumps) did 4 solos then went straight onto a 5-jump canopy control course which included toggle and rear-riser stalls, all still with student gear (in fact, the canopy control course was my first jump without a radio iirc Angelic - man, those 5k "low" jumps made me nervous Laugh)

The rear riser stalls were fine enough if a little weird feeling (falling backwards), but the toggle stalls required wrapping the brakelines and scared the bejesus out of me to see that canopy folded in half and to feel myself falling (I too whipped my hands back up and created a nice set of line twists).

Other than requiring new underwear, I learnt more on those few jumps than on any others I can remember. I dont remember anyone saying it was a bad idea at the time, in fact, there was quite some encouragement for me to experience the 'feeling' etc from an education point of view.

One of the very first things I did when I got my own gear was to perform stalls (amongst other canopy drills) at a good height to get the feel for the new canopy. I would do the same on any new canopy now, as and when that time comes.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 17, 2006, 6:29 AM
Post #30 of 65 (1314 views)
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Re: [RossDagley] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Good stuff, Ross. You obviously have what it takes and the instructors at your DZ recognized that.
I don't know if I would apply that to ALL students, though...not even the majority of them.

Be safe and Blue Skies.


RossDagley  (C 950932)

Feb 17, 2006, 6:47 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Should this actually *be* part of the A licence requirement? (I'm thinking of the requirement in Auz or NZ or whereever it was a few posts up). Maybe make a canopy control course a requirement. Sow the seed to safe canopy control?

Forgot to say, my DZ (at the time) was DeLand, and the canopy course was of course Scott Millers. Going straight from AFF to the canopy course I think was a great idea. I'd do the course again tomorrow if I could.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 17, 2006, 7:07 AM
Post #32 of 65 (1302 views)
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Re: [RossDagley] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

If you were taking instruction from Scott...what can anyone else say? IMO, Scott's the best. You done good! I wish EVERY student could do that.

As far as a Conopy Control Course being a requirement, you're going to get a lot of verbage from both sides of the fence. IMO, I like the idea.

Pulling, EPs and landing are the three most important parts of a skydive. You get pretty much covered with practice in pulling and EPs in an AFF course but the landing part is not covered very well and you can't practice it on the ground.

One other thing...as was mentioned above, stalling a student canopy is not something that is easily done "on accident" and doing it purposely close to the ground is stupid. So, why push that part of the canopy piloting skills when there are much more important things to learn and master first? Why must it be learned at 15 jumps (when flying and landing safely is much more important) instead of later when those skills have become second-nature?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 17, 2006, 7:20 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 17, 2006, 7:18 AM
Post #33 of 65 (1298 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't know if I would apply that to ALL students, though...not even the majority of them

You are way off base with your attitude toward stalls. A stall is just another flight mode, that needs to be practiced and understood.

First off the OP is not jumping a student canopy. Furthermore, the only thing keeping a student canopy from stalling is longer brake setting, and an extremely low stall speed (thanks to the low WL).

Either one of those can be overcome by factors outside of the jumpers control. As line sets go out of trim, brake settings can get closer and closer to allowing a stall, and one tall lanky jumper is all it takes for a student canopy to fold up.

How about when that same canopy is on final approach anf the flare co-incides with a diminshing protion of a wind gust? That sounds like a drastic reduction in arispeed, and the onset of a stall. What is the jumper, with no stall experience to do then?

My guess is that they would pull the toggles down further, in an attempt to slow down, which is what they always did in the past. In that instance, it would be wrong. With no experience as to the feeling of approaching, and the devolpment of a stall, the jumper has no idea what happening. Thats bad.

Stalls are an important part of the education needed to safely fly a canopy. To suggest that they are unsafe, and should be avoided unitl a later date is just plain wrong. What needs to happen is for jumpers to seek out some additional education on the proper technique for stalls and stall recovery, and then they need to practice it on a solo pass at 5k, with no traffic present.

Maybe fill out your profile with some realistic information, so other jumper can guauge where the advice is coming from. What you are suggesting is coming from a limited base of knowledge and experiene, yet others have no way of knowing that, and may follow your lead, which is doing than a great dis-service.

If you really want to be safe, learn to close your mouth and open your ears. I carefully listen and consider every viewpoint I come across. Sometimes even a whuffo will just blurt something out that really makes sense (not very often, but it happens).


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 17, 2006, 8:19 AM
Post #34 of 65 (1288 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... You are way off base with your attitude toward stalls.

Well, let's see...

In reply to:
A stall is just another flight mode, that needs to be practiced and understood.

I've already expressed that.

In reply to:
First off the OP is not jumping a student canopy.

Somewhere I missed that part but that doesn't have much to do with the general population of student jumpers. It's a specific situation.

In reply to:
Furthermore, the only thing keeping a student canopy from stalling is longer brake setting, and an extremely low stall speed (thanks to the low WL).

This has already been addressed. This is just one of the reasons why we put students on those canopies. Please note that there are several other things that could cause a student canopy to stall, correct?

In reply to:
Either one of those can be overcome by factors outside of the jumpers control. As line sets go out of trim, brake settings can get closer and closer to allowing a stall, and one tall lanky jumper is all it takes for a student canopy to fold up.

All true. Hopefully the local riggers and instructors are keeping an eye on these things to prevent it from happening.

In reply to:
How about when that same canopy is on final approach anf the flare co-incides with a diminshing protion of a wind gust? That sounds like a drastic reduction in arispeed, and the onset of a stall. What is the jumper, with no stall experience to do then?

What could anyone do with a stall at flare altitude?
PLF like a banshee, eh?

In reply to:
My guess is that they would pull the toggles down further, in an attempt to slow down, which is what they always did in the past. In that instance, it would be wrong.

Assuming you mean on final prior to flare altitude:
You're indicating an inflated canopy. They probably would. And yes, it would be wrong.
Do your instructors not teach how to handle a squirelly canopy on final?

In reply to:
Stalls are an important part of the education needed to safely fly a canopy.

This has already been stated.

In reply to:
To suggest that they are unsafe, and should be avoided until a later date is just plain wrong.

Stalls ARE unsafe. Anything you do do to screw up a good canopy over your head is not safe. It should be avoided until the student is capable and comfortable with flying a good canopy. Anyway, you can't teach and practice it ALL from Jump #1 now can you? It's a progressive learning curve.

As a point of demonstration:
AFF has two instructors with the student until they prove that they can fly stable. To pass AFF, the student must prove they can recover from instability. Using your logic, this progression would be unneccesary because he should know how to do all that from Jump #1.

In reply to:
What needs to happen is for jumpers to seek out some additional education on the proper technique for stalls and stall recovery, and then they need to practice it on a solo pass at 5k, with no traffic present.

This has already been stated by me and others. How much of the thread have you read?

In reply to:
What you are suggesting is coming from a limited base of knowledge and experiene, yet others have no way of knowing that, and may follow your lead, which is doing than a great dis-service.

Talking to your instructors is NEVER a dis-service.

In reply to:
If you really want to be safe, learn to close your mouth and open your ears.

Fine attitude, guy. You are telling students that stalling a perfectly good canopy is safe and that all newbies should try it at 15 jumps or less....not good.

In reply to:
Maybe fill out your profile with some realistic information, so other jumper can guauge where the advice is coming from.

My advice was to talk to your instructors. Also see below. Everything else, as indicated, is IMHO.I carefully listen and consider every viewpoint I come across.
But evidently you don't read so well.
To re-iterate what has been said in this thread:
1. Talk to your instructors.
2. Stalls of any sort are not safe. Bad things could result regardless of altitude.
3. Get canopy piloting training.
4. Don't try to out-fly your ass.
5. My opinion is, and remains, that the student should be capable and comportable with flying a good canopy before going off exploring things that will endanger his safety. Doing so without supervision and training is stupid. You are perfectly free to have a differing opinion.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 17, 2006, 8:21 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 17, 2006, 8:47 AM
Post #35 of 65 (1274 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What could anyone do with a stall at flare altitude?
PLF like a banshee, eh?

Heres where your lack of information is showing. A stall is not instantaneous at lower Wl, they develop. If you have experienced a satll, you will recognize the feeling, and know what is happening. The correct action os to not apply any more brakes, your canopy is already flying as slow as it can.

Without experience in stalls, the immediate reaction to things not goign well during landing is to finish the flare, which in this case will accelaerate the stall and worsen the sitaution.

Quote:
Stalls ARE unsafe. Anything you do do to screw up a good canopy over your head is not safe.

Wrong again. Stalls are not unsafe, at an apporpriate altitude, and with appropriate technique. Youare mistaking inflation with being the determining factor between a bad and good canopy. This is also incorrect. Provided you are in control of it, the inflation or deflation of your canopy above 2000ft is your business.

Quote:
you can't teach and practice it ALL from Jump #1 now can you? It's a progressive learning curve.

I never suggested this on jump one. The OP is in jump 15. Beleive it or not, the current system of training is shorting jumpers in the area of canopy control.

Jump one is a very supervised enviorment, with a huge weath of info to absorb. Seeing as the number of jumpers who return for jump #2 is small, and jumper #3 is even smaller and so on, by the time a guy is at 8 or 10 jumps, it's time to consider that he is a skydiver, and will continue on to self jumpmaster. At this point it's time to get serious and persue the trainig you need to keep jumping.

Quote:
How much of the thread have you read?

Fine attitude, guy. You are telling students that stalling a perfectly good canopy is safe and that all newbies should try it at 15 jumps or less....not good.

How much have YOU read? My first post on this matter suggested gettign a canopy coach for an hour, and learning what he needed to know the right way.

Quote:
exploring things that will endanger his safety.

Continuing to repeat this does not make it true.


The overall point is, and yor position is a great illustration, that jumpers do not have a good understaning of canopy flight. Beyond basic freefall stability, the majority of training should be focused in canopy control, and aerodynamic theory. Every jump is the equivilant of an engine-out scenario for a pilot, and jumpers are far under preparred for the situations that could present themselves.

Your problem is that you are dealing with your reality, which is based on the old way of doing things. My reality is based on forward thinking, and working with what could, and should be the norm, which is complete and thourough training in the area of canopy control.

There's a reason that Scott Miller and Brian Germian teach stalls to ALL of their students regardless of their experience.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 17, 2006, 8:56 AM
Post #36 of 65 (1268 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

The topic simply involves "when" a student should get training, not if. And we can't agree. So be it. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone could be trained for this kind of thing right out of the door?

Ok...we seem to agree on most parts regardless of relevant skill levels...Get the training.

I'll ask around and get some other views on the safety factor of intentional stalls at 15 jumps.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 17, 2006, 9:04 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 17, 2006, 9:03 AM
Post #37 of 65 (1265 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'll ask around and get some other views on the safety factor of intentional stalls.

Understand with proper technique, and the right approach, a stall and recovery is not the spinning demon seed some people think it is. The entry and exit from a stall can be a very controlled and methodical event, especially at lower WL.

CREW guys will use a mild stall in four way rotation. The top guy will pop up and over the stack, stall his canopy, and ride downthe burble to dock on the bottom. If satlls weren't safe, I don't think anyone would be doing them ten feet behind a three stack.

Bad experiences with stalls are the result of poor or non-existant training. Just like you can screw up alot of things by doing it wrong, so to is the case with stalls.

People seem to forget that once you open your canopy, you've avoided a terminal impact, but now you're alone with your canopy, and it's the tool you are going to use to save your life. Not knowing the full scope of it's capabilities is really like flying partially blind. It's stupid.

Just becasue it's the norm, doesn't mean it's right.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 17, 2006, 9:19 AM
Post #38 of 65 (1259 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Understand with proper technique, and the right approach, a stall and recovery is not the spinning demon seed some people think it is. The entry and exit from a stall can be a very controlled and methodical event, especially at lower WL.


So correct. And that's one of the things proper training in technique will help you accomplish.

In reply to:
Bad experiences with stalls are the result of poor or non-existant training. Just like you can screw up alot of things by doing it wrong, so to is the case with stalls.


And, I would venture to say, that unplanned-for events could make it go wrong even if you did the right things is what makes it an unsafe manuever (even assuming good training and good learning).

In reply to:
Not knowing the full scope of it's capabilities is really like flying partially blind. It's stupid.


Agreed. The only points of contention, Dave, is when does one have the capability and presence of mind to be able to handle the full scope and the things that could go wrong and the relative safety of doing intentional stalls. I'm from the old-school - anything you do to screw up a good canopy is not safe.

In reply to:
Just becasue it's the norm, doesn't mean it's right.

Boy, you are right there...progression and advancements in teaching techniques and skills is rarely a bad thing.


velvetjo  (D License)

Feb 17, 2006, 9:41 AM
Post #39 of 65 (1248 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
when does one have the capability and presence of mind to be able to handle the full scope and the things that could go wrong and the relative safety of doing intentional stalls. I'm from the old-school - anything you do to screw up a good canopy is not safe.

It says a lot that the FAA won't allow a student airplane pilot to solo without having first practiced stalls & stall recoveries. It's simply a mode of flight, and one that needs to be experienced early in a student's progression.

Lance


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 17, 2006, 9:46 AM
Post #40 of 65 (1244 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll ask around and get some other views on the safety factor of intentional stalls at 15 jumps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I usually introduce my PFF students to stalls when they have 6 or 8 jumps. This is usually after they have progressed from 290 to 230 square foot canopies and have demonstrated a bunch of decent landings, rear riser turns, etc.
The question of WHEN to teach stalls is highly dependent upon student weight, skill, weather, etc. and is best made by local instructors.
Far better to learn the basics of stalls and stall recovery under a big, docile 290 than a Spinetto.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 17, 2006, 10:46 AM
Post #41 of 65 (1236 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Rob. I really didn't think I was that far of base there. Lots of factors to consider.

You have a pleasant way of putting things.
I hope Jason Shumway gets to see your post.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 17, 2006, 10:48 AM)


marks  (D 22296)

Feb 17, 2006, 12:00 PM
Post #42 of 65 (1222 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy, you expressed interest with me in taking a weekend and getting canopy control coaching.

I will have you know, the first jump I have you do is about spotting, after a spotting class. then the second jump is a full on all out stall of your canopy. then the third jump is all about flying and turning the canopy at its stall point without letting it stall.Wink


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 17, 2006, 12:06 PM
Post #43 of 65 (1220 views)
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Re: [marks] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep...good stuff...

Would you recommend that full stall to any 15 jump student not knowing their abilities?

Am I just being overly cautious here, Mark?
Learning about your canopy in a controlled , progressive manner is one thing, but to expose a 15-jump student to a full stall without the basic, pre-requisite riser and toggle explorations and skills?.....


Edited to add: OK, if that's the case, then I concede that teaching these things to 15-jumpers is OK. I do NOT concede that it would be safe for him/her. For those of us with more experience and having learned and done stalls, granted the safety factor is much higher.

Just for your info...I have to take 2 wraps to fully stall my 190 Triathlon. I think this is not a safe practice also.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 17, 2006, 12:12 PM)


marks  (D 22296)

Feb 17, 2006, 12:27 PM
Post #44 of 65 (1211 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would you recommend that full stall to any 15 jump student not knowing their abilities?

yes, under the full supervision of a professional canopy coach and or an aff instructor.

reason for it, because you want it to scare the hell out of them so they DON'T do it. and so they understand what happens when they do. then you teach them to fly it right at that point. it gives them a great feel for the canopy and a better understanding on how it works and doesn't work.

don't get me wrong, you wont ever see me stall my canopy, I HATE it with a passion. it scares the hell out of me, but I also have the experience to be able to push it to that edge and even fly it there if I have to.

I also, like to have students do very hard toggle whips up high, WHY? this might sound weird, but it is a great training tool and it will keep the kids from dying. I like them to do extremely hard toggle whips for 2 reasons.

1. so they have an understanding of the dive. and

2. "this is the scary one" so they might even possibly get into line twist, and scare the shit out of themselves. because if they do it low, they could die. I really only use that one for "that guy" just to slow them down a bit.Wink


(This post was edited by marks on Feb 17, 2006, 12:29 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 17, 2006, 12:32 PM
Post #45 of 65 (1203 views)
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Re: [marks] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, Mark...OK guys.

I've been verbally bitch-slapped and know it.

Mark, I like 'em even though the first one scared the crap out of me and I let up the toggles all at once and in the middle of the dive I saw the horizon WAY over the tail of my Tri-190.


marks  (D 22296)

Feb 17, 2006, 12:34 PM
Post #46 of 65 (1200 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

I didnt bitch slap you! just said my point of veiw.

Im sure there are other points of veiw.Tongue


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 17, 2006, 2:42 PM
Post #47 of 65 (1177 views)
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Re: [marks] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

No Mark, I wasn't referring to you at all...others.

You be 'da man.
LaughLaughLaugh


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 17, 2006, 2:45 PM)


AFFI  (D 25538)

Feb 17, 2006, 8:39 PM
Post #48 of 65 (1153 views)
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Braked Approach/Landing, Stalls & Accuracy, for novice Jumpers by Don Yahrling [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometime back I emailed the late great Don Y. concerning some of the canopy control requirements on the A License Proficiency card, in particular the Braked Approach and Landing and Accuracy Landing requirements. Don, in is own elegant manner went into details that did include the importance of learning stall points of the canopy being piloted and how it is imperative that the student learn control aspects of their canopy prior to performing braked maneuvers close to the ground. His reply email is pasted below. Thought some of you might appreciate good ole don’s perspective.

Hey, Mykel,
My purported areas of “expertise” certainly do not include the detailed whys and wherefores of all of the facets of the “I.S.P.” I’ll still be absorbing the minutia for several years to come, as will the rest of the instructional community. Keep in mind that I was mostly “out of the S&T Committee” loop for two years, and that there were numerous modifications and revisions to the “I.S.P.” by them after my departure from the committee. After that disclaimer, I can, however, speculate………….
My interpretation, for that’s all that it is, would lead me to conclude that the degree of control input by the student would absolutely be equipment/wing loading dependent, as well factoring in the wind conditions existing (down to the deck) when the canopy flight in question is planned. The definition of what is “braked” will vary a bit from DZ to DZ and Instructor to Instructor. After all, isn’t every landing aside from full flight a ‘braked landing” at some point prior to, or perhaps after, ground impact??? Good, bad or indifferent.
I’m sure that the spirit and intent of this requirement is to ensure that the student understands and can discern between the various modes of flight of their canopy, which on their final student canopy flights, IMHO, should include approaches to and execution of a stall and demonstrating the ability to recover to full flight at an extravagant altitude, ergo, way up there, probably immediately following the determination of a good canopy, subsequent to the controllability check. This is directly paralleled in aviation flight instruction.
How many folks have been killed over the years due partly or wholly to an imperfect understanding and feel for the safe envelope of flight for the canopy that they were using when they frapped? So a clear understanding of how to avoid a stall when the chips are down (new DZ, last load, running late, bad spot, tiny field, perhaps unfamiliar equipment, etc., or even a reserve ride) is essential. How many skydivers (including Instructors) out there these days have never truly stalled their canopy?????? “Oh, that’s too scary.” And their point is? The alternative is even more scary for most normal folks.
In all cases common sense should be exercised by each Instructor, therefore in essence tailoring the requirement to each student, not simply blindly adhering to a requirement in the program, applying what I would term ‘collision avoidance of a cookie-cutter approach to canopy flight instruction’.
The spirit and intent of the accuracy requirement is to have the student demonstrate proper expertise in landing their parachute where they plan to, without guidance. This is not a contest for Instructors in directing radio-controlled student skydivers to a spot landing. One consideration is that the “A” License requirement is going up to 25 jumps in September- that’s five more opportunities to work with “problem children” on their canopy skills.
That’s all that you get today. Besides, my coffee cup is empty.
Clear Skies,
Don


glyrenden  (B 48926)

Feb 17, 2006, 8:59 PM
Post #49 of 65 (1149 views)
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Re: Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Damn! I never thought that I would start such a heated discussion. Shocked

Well if it counts for anything. I did talk to an instructor and after seeing me jump thought that it would be a good idea for me to try. he said that it is very important for me to know the stall point of any chute that I'm flying and how to recognize a stall.

the saber 2 210 that I was flying at full breaks wouldn't stall. so I wrapped the break lines up a little bit and tried again. (I was at 4500 feet trying this) it stalled. I paniced and raised me hands, saw the horizon above my tail. S**t my self Shocked and recovered. luckly no line twists or anything. but I could see how they could form..

As for where this thread has gone. I think that popsjumper makes a lot of good points. having seen many student jumps I think that it sometimes takes some longer to learn the basics. but it is something that I think students should experience because if it happens as a bad time and you have never felt that falling backwards feeling you will panic hardcore.

Pops I think that your advice on talking to an instructor that can assess your canopy control abilities is spot on.

I don' t think that there is one answer for all students.

but for me.... I'll be practicing stalls very carefully till I don't panic at the feeling.

Thanks everyone
Jason


MB38  (A 48618)

Feb 18, 2006, 12:32 AM
Post #50 of 65 (1129 views)
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Re: [AFFI] Braked Approach/Landing, Stalls & Accuracy, for novice Jumpers by Don Yahrling [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...the “A” License requirement is going up to 25 jumps in September...
What country?


bert_man

Feb 18, 2006, 12:49 AM
Post #51 of 65 (1295 views)
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Re: [MB38] Braked Approach/Landing, Stalls & Accuracy, for novice Jumpers by Don Yahrling [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that was an old email and he's talking about in the US. In 2003 the USPA upped the requirements for all licenses:

A: 20 to 25
B: 50 (I think it stayed there?)
C: 100 to 200
D: 200 to 500

That's probably what he was referring to.

As for stalls, I love 'em and do it on probably a good 30-40% of my jumps, sometimes riding them for 5-10 seconds. I even go as far as to try to make it do things on recovery, like "hmm lets see if i can make it recover 180 degrees off my heading, to the right" or "lets see how fast i can make it recover without surging wildly".

I jump a sabre 170 loaded at 1.4-ish. Doing these stalls so often has really helped me learn to 'feel' my canopy. It's hard to gain that instinctual feel of your canopy without ever having much variation in line tension or having certain parts of your canopy collapse and actually know it's coming so you can look at your canopy and see what is really occuring as you feel it, knowing that you're at a safe altitude to do so.

I've had instances (one very interesting one recently, low to the ground) where my canopy has done some crazy stuff in turbulent winds and I was able to instantly identify my situation just by feeling the pressure changes in the risers and the harness. I don't think I'd have been as calm when the left-front portion of my canopy folded completely under at 50 feet this past weekend if I hadn't done all the stalls that I do.

In fact, a stall is one of the first things that I do when I try a new canopy... if only to determine the control stroke, at the very least.

I might not keep up with this same practice when I fly a velocity 98 someday, though I think that doing it now definitely better prepares me for any future mishaps on any canopy.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 18, 2006, 4:10 AM
Post #52 of 65 (1286 views)
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Congrats, Jason!
Weird feeling eh?Crazy
Now, with practice you can ingrain that feeling of what a stall feels like and can go on to develop the finesse to be able detect it early on and (with your instructor's advice) hopefully be able to prevent the unintentional from going full out.

Good stuff.

I feel much better now knowing that you got your instructor's input from someone that knows and has oboserved your canopy skills. Too often youngsters get cocky and wind up getting hurt....It's refreshing to see someone keeping the ego in check and doing things with safety in mind.

As for the "heated" discussion going on here...LaughLaugh...don't worry. Excited, heated banter happens all the time on DZ.com between people having and expressing differing opinions. You can be sure though that 99% of the old-timers out here will always lean towards the side of "safety first". The younger ones tend to be much braver (and I'm not saying that they are unsafe in all cases) and that can be a good thing in that the "envelope" gets pushed and stretched and more skydiving doors open up. Sadly, sometimes at a heavy price.

Anyway, keep up the good work and always be safety conscious.


AFFI  (D 25538)

Feb 18, 2006, 9:07 AM
Post #53 of 65 (1277 views)
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Re: [MB38] Braked Approach/Landing, Stalls & Accuracy, for novice Jumpers by Don Yahrling [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
...the “A” License requirement is going up to 25 jumps in September...
What country?

USA - Don wrote this a while back, the year USPA changed the A Liscense requirements...


MB38  (A 48618)

Feb 18, 2006, 11:08 AM
Post #54 of 65 (1264 views)
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Re: [AFFI] Braked Approach/Landing, Stalls & Accuracy, for novice Jumpers by Don Yahrling [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for clarifying, didn't realize the quote was old


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Feb 18, 2006, 2:22 PM
Post #55 of 65 (1249 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You can be sure though that 99% of the old-timers out here will always lean towards the side of "safety first". The younger ones tend to be much braver

unless we're talking about breakoff and pull altitudes. Or the use of backups like AADs and RSLs.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 18, 2006, 8:45 PM
Post #56 of 65 (1232 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Eh?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 18, 2006, 9:06 PM)


tbrown  (D 6533)

Feb 18, 2006, 10:36 PM
Post #57 of 65 (1227 views)
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

1. is it safe to stall the chute? when I learned to fly airplanes we stalled the plane alot to learn what an approaching stall felt like. is it ok to stall the chute up high to learn?

2. I'm currently flying a saber 2 210 and I'm 175lbs + gear. How will this canopy stall? I've read that some bow in the middle others end cells colaspe.

3. how high would you recommend that I be to try stalling? I normally pull at around 5000. mostly because I like to play under canopy. should I plan to pull even higher?
1.) Yes, you can safely stall it up high. But get instruction and coaching, just like you did with an airplane.

2.) I stalled my 210 Pilot canopy today in a canopy course taught by Jonathan Tagle at elsinore (this is the same "Scott Miller" course, which Jonathan now also teaches as a partner). Difference aside, a Sabre2 210 should be safely stallable - again, under an instructor's supervison. BELIEVE ME, the recovery is every bit as exciting as the stall, don't try this on your own.

3.) We were making hop & pops from 5 grand. That's plenty. If you're above 2 grand you've got all the room in the world for a cutaway if things go completely to shit. (You're still pulling at 5 grand ? Lord, what ARE they teaching you AFF kids these days ? )


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Feb 18, 2006, 10:57 PM
Post #58 of 65 (1222 views)
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Re: [tbrown] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
3.) We were making hop & pops from 5 grand. That's plenty. If you're above 2 grand you've got all the room in the world for a cutaway if things go completely to shit. (You're still pulling at 5 grand ? Lord, what ARE they teaching you AFF kids these days ? )

He's got 20 jumps. You want him to learn canopy skills or not?

(yes, I'm tired of whining about how low timers like to pull high)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 19, 2006, 6:25 PM
Post #59 of 65 (1193 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

>I've played with stall during my SL jumps from 1200-1500.
>Why not? I was told to do so.

Depends largely on the canopy. On a square 290 sqft canopy it's not a big deal provided you have the sky to yourself and you do it high enough. On a Pilot 150 it can be a much bigger deal.

The problem with stalls is generally the recovery rather than the initiation. The key to a safe recovery is a smooth release back up to about 1/2 brakes (the 'stow' position) until the canopy gets a little forward speed.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 20, 2006, 7:32 AM
Post #60 of 65 (1166 views)
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Re: [billvon] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The problem with stalls is generally the recovery rather than the initiation

This can be solved with proper training. If you teach studetns from day one (of stall training) that goingot full flight from a stall is a bad thing, they won;t be tempted to do so. Show them how throwing your hands up to recover is abad thing, that will be the last thing they'll want to do when the canopy stalls.

Teach them that the stall is contained within a few inches of toggle stroke. You enter in a slow and controlled fashion, and you exit the same way.

Have them lock their arms down, thumbs pointed up, and work the stall with wrist action. Thumbs down to stall, thumbs back up to recover.

This is exactly how I was taught, and in fact it was with about the same number of words it was explained to me. Maybe I was a better than average student, but I got it right away, and with a little more explanation, and maybe some ground training in a hanging harness (with bungee toggles), I don't see how anyone could not get the concept.

Even if their in-air performance is less than stellar, even if they come close they'll be in good shape. Even if the blow it 100%, and unevenly rocket the toggle back to the guide rings, provided they have sufficient altitude, and an appropriate canopy, they can handle whatever situation they create.


jheadley  (D 28710)

Feb 21, 2006, 6:35 PM
Post #61 of 65 (1127 views)
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Re: [glyrenden] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's a good example of what can happen when you stall and do not recover properly. So if you do it, do it above your decision altitude and let the toggles back up slowly and evenly.

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/...ion=file&id=3454


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 6, 2013, 3:38 PM
Post #62 of 65 (593 views)
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Re: [Genn] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

link not working.


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 7, 2013, 6:14 AM
Post #63 of 65 (534 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
link not working.

That's because it's a 7 year old link to a site that no longer exists.


kd5xb  (Student)

Jan 7, 2013, 8:04 AM
Post #64 of 65 (498 views)
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Re: [labrys] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't explored this much, but you might try http://web.archive.org/...ion=file&id=3454


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 7, 2013, 2:24 PM
Post #65 of 65 (449 views)
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Re: [kd5xb] Stalling my canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I haven't explored this much, but you might try http://web.archive.org/...ion=file&id=3454

THANKS!



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