The student that was hurt in this accident has been traveling to all the local news stations of south east kansas, south West Missouri and North East Arkansas with her story.
This whole event being taken to the media and then not being accurate in accounting ALL events is rediculous and sad to me. I hear that the UK has been contacted as well.
billvon (D 16479)
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Dec 13, 2005, 9:05 AM
Post #29 of 216
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Shayna's sabre-2 190 was stuffed into a container sized for a 135! and she did not have the skill to fly anything in that performance range. the triathalon 190 may have well been a better canopy for her then the sabre-2. Joe
Shayna had several uneventful jumps on our Triathalon 190. It was a better canopy choice for her. I believe the Sabre-2 was probably too much for her. She should have just stayed at FFE and continued her student trainging. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
Could not F'ing agree MORE. I just had a 40 minute discussion with mom and dad. Explained a bunch of stuff that they simply did NOT need to know, but need to know now because someone felt the need to media-whore themselves out.
REALLY infuriating. It's bad enough our sport gets slammed by the media who doesn't know better. We don't need people IN THE SPORT doing it, as well.
In reply to:
Ok, now I'm pissed.
I don't need my mother sending me tearful emails about this shit.
People, if you are going to be stupid, try to keep it to yourself.
I don't need my mother sending me tearful emails about this shit.
People, if you are going to be stupid, try to keep it to yourself.
Could be worse. I've got a custody hearing in a weekand I'm fairly sure that this got the attention of my kids' mother and that the dangers of skydiivng used as a reason why I shouldn't have custody.
"Rick says that students aren't taught to repair all simple malfunctions like that becuase they will spend too much time trying to fix it, and not ever cutaway. " Where is it standard practice to NOT teach students how to deal with a toggle that becomes unstowed? That is bloody ridiculous. I used to be a static line instructor, and I ALWAYS taught that, and showed students how to deal with it in the hanging harness. If they could not deal with a simulated spin in the harness, or any other situation....NO JUMP. That was the rule from our CI. Every other static line instructor I know teaches that. I instructed my girlfriend on her first jump, and I jumpmastered her, and I did many instructional FS jumps with her. I don't have a problem with that. (Clearly you might say )
This is a stupid and unnecessary 'accident' that happened because people seem to have operated without regard for due safety. I feel sorry for this girl because she has received sub-standard instruction and guidance, and now she has to live with the pain.
This girl simply had no clue what was going on, and no idea on how to even begin to fix the situation. That shows poor instruction. After 9 previous jumps, she could still not check her toggles? She could still not figure out that a spin may very well be induced by a unstowed toggle? She was never instructed properly. It's that simple...and that makes me angry. It is not her fault. Her instructor is totally at fault here because he clearly did not do even a half-decent job.
If this post seems inflammatory...that's exactly how I want it to be. I do not post often, but I get really mad when people get hurt for stupid reasons, and I get really mad when the sport gets a bad rap because of it.
You should argue that that is a good reason to give you custody. You may not be around too long, and your kids should get as much quality time with you as possible.
They can spend all the time with their mother after you lose your life due the dodgy equipment we all jump.
I plan to do the AFF course next year (UK). Every time I hear of an accident I read as much as I can to try to understand exactly what went wrong and what could have been done to prevent it. Please forgive my stupidity when I ask the following question(s).
What is an unstowed toggle? Does it mean she didn't reach up and grab it?
Also, is flaring with both toggles the only way to pull down a slider thats stuck?
Anyone tell me what the "snap" sound was she described when using the risers?
I plan to do the AFF course next year (UK). Every time I hear of an accident I read as much as I can to try to understand exactly what went wrong and what could have been done to prevent it. Please forgive my stupidity when I ask the following question(s).
What is an unstowed toggle? Does it mean she didn't reach up and grab it?
Also, is flaring with both toggles the only way to pull down a slider thats stuck?
Anyone tell me what the "snap" sound was she described when using the risers?
There are no stupid questions....only stupid answers....here's mine Take into consideration that there are many variables and many different factors that could effect the severity and speed with which any malfunction or abnormality happens. These will naturally dictate how one should best react for that specific instance.
These are my opinions only: An unstowed toggle is NOT a malfunction, but rather an abnormality. An abnormality, if not corrected in good time, can lead to a malfunction.
An unstowed toggle is simply a toggle/brake that has come unstowed from the way it was packed. All that is required is a reach up and grab of the toggle, and to take hold of and release the other toggle at the same time. Depending on the wingloading and canopy type, a spin can be induced either very fast, or gently at first, picking up speed the longer the situation is left unchecked.
Flaring with both toggles is about as much as one can do to help bring down a slider. If it still does not come down all the way, I recommend a canopy control check to determine whether the canopy can be controlled and landed safely. If it can NOT be controlled safely and properly, then get rid of it...IF you have enough altitude to safely execute your reserve drills.
I can only hazard a guess as to the 'snap' sound. Highly likely it was a mind snap, but could also be a fast velcro release, or the sound of the toggle coming unstowed and stopping against the ring. Could also be a slider coming down, a canopy opening nearby....or...or...or..... you get the idea? It could have been any one of a dozen things. She stated that she thought it was her lines breaking? Best way to confirm that would be to take a look no? THEN decide. This whole incident is such a pity, because a premature toggle release, in most instances, is such a minor thing, and can usually be remedied quite easily.
The question is: what can be done in such a situation to minimize the descent rate?
Looks like a stuck slider in an asymmetric position that induces a hard turn. if it had been on a main, it'd be a quick "oh shit" and CA-CLING, cutaway. But it was on a reserve. Of course in a chain-of-events like this, it could have been prevented, but let's take the actual situation after the cutaway.
Pumping toggles might help but the jumper stated that she did this and it looked like some fabric from the canopy was stuck in a slider grommet. If this was on one side it'd explain the rather quick turns.
Basically, you're in deep trouble if this sort of thing happens. On a sub 100 sgft reserve, it gets a lot worse.
My immediate reaction when I saw the video was "go for toggles. See if it helps. If it doesn't, yank risers, different combinations til something is found that at least slows the descent.".
What else can be done? Any good ideas?
(This post was edited by Dolph on Dec 13, 2005, 1:42 PM)
This girl simply had no clue what was going on, and no idea on how to even begin to fix the situation. That shows poor instruction. After 9 previous jumps, she could still not check her toggles? She could still not figure out that a spin may very well be induced by a unstowed toggle? She was never instructed properly. It's that simple...and that makes me angry. It is not her fault. Her instructor is totally at fault here because he clearly did not do even a half-decent job.
The first time I had a fired toggle was in the 50s or 60s on jump count. Got smacked in the mouth by a riser (which probably fired it), disorienting me slightly, and next I know I'm in a wild spiral, even with my gigantic tri 220 it was surprising how powerful it was. I instinctively grabbed the opposite rear to counteract it and when that worked, I was able to look up and see only one toggle attached.
But at that point, I understood why others I knew had cutaway from this 'anomoly.' It was so different from past opening experiences.
I saw it on the 10 pm news last night here in Louisiana. My first thought was why didn't she use input on the opposite riser to stop the fucking spin. Who cares about the slider on her reserve being up, If she had only tried to stop the spin she might have made a better landing. I always teach my students to stop the spin before they start to lose blood to the brain. Has this occurred to anyone else who watched the video. The fact that her rig had a main that was to big for the container, or weather she was dating her Instructor is of no importance. The main goal IMO is for students to understand to immedietely grab risers and use opposite input to stop the spin. You have to get a stable canopy over head if you want to trouble shoot the problem and possibly walk away. I also heard on the news she (landed) spun into an asphalt parking lot. If she could have got that reserve flying strait, who cares if she had nothing to flare with, or the fact that her slider was up.She could have hit in the grass, and PLF ed and ended up with less distortion of her face.
anyway sorry about the rant, it is only my 2 cents. Big nelli out.
The fact that her rig had a main that was to big for the container / is of no importance
You right, keep in mind the main was chopped so what she was flying was a highly loaded canopy as a student. My point is, was the reserve 129 or so sq ft reserve? What a way to experience her level 1 AFF student jump.
(This post was edited by JeepDiver on Dec 13, 2005, 4:34 PM)
Pumping toggles might help but the jumper stated that she did this and it looked like some fabric from the canopy was stuck in a slider grommet.
I was part of the team that did the on-site investigation. We found no damage to the slider or canopy that would indicate that the canopy fabric had got sucked into the grommet.
OMG it's on Fox News with Sheppard Smith, and it's on CNN with Wolf Blitzer, and she was on a live interview with CNN. She has a trust fund set up now, where people can donate to her and her baby.
(This post was edited by NelKel on Dec 13, 2005, 4:45 PM)
I am by no way an expert after watching the video on every channel, but it is apparent to me she had a tension knott, trapping the slider up. Turn on your TV and you will probably get a chance to see it again tonight. I didn't see fabric trapped but the position of the slider up the lines, the distortion of the left side of the canopy, and the way it was turning you can obvously tell the slider was hung up and all I can figure out is a tension knot.
I didn't see fabric trapped but the position of the slider up the lines, the distortion of the left side of the canopy, and the way it was turning you can obvously tell the slider was hung up and all I can figure out is a tension knot.
There was not knot on the ground; however, I did find a kink set into one of the upper control lines on that side. Some have suggested that it was simply the results of folding the canopy and not the results of a knot. I tend to disagree with that theory because I would have expected to find simlar kinks in the other lines if it had been the result of folding.
A number of riggers more experienced than me have said that even if a tension knot did occur it couldn't have hung the slider. It was also pointed out that if you watch the video, the right side of her canopy is not inflated either and that would have been totally independent of the tension knot on the left side.
It is worth pointing out that we got lucky in the FAA investigation and drew a master rigger as lead investigator. He ruled it an incident but listed cause as undetermined and assigned no fault. And in case someone ask again, I never saw the final report. I got this directly from the investigator who's based out of the Little Rock, AR FSDO. I don't recall his name but if you call and ask for the guy who handled the parachute accidnet in Oct., the'll connect you.
-Blind
(This post was edited by BlindBrick on Dec 13, 2005, 5:01 PM)
MY bad I meant right, not left. I didn't, but you did get to see the gear, so I believe your first hand account. Apparently there was not a tension knot and I retract my eiarlier statment that there was, and appoligise and hope I wasen't misleading to anyone.
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