Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK

 

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brettski74  (C 3197)

Oct 30, 2006, 10:59 PM
Post #101 of 364 (2382 views)
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Re: [sky-pimp] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
i was in that cloud somewhere with an open canopy at 3.5k . .

I know this post is about 9 months old, now, but this thread got resurrected recently and when I read this, something about it just bugged me...

I know I have much less jumps than you, but you deployed your main at 4000' inside a cloud and you're calling into question the safety of the other guy's actions? Exactly how did you clear the air above, below and beside you on deployment? Aside from when you're at the hard-deck, is it not everyone's responsibility to ensure clear air before hitting the anchors and wiping off about 100mph of vertical speed?

In the interests of not dragging this thread too far off-topic, here is a more appropriate thread to further discuss cloud deployment issues.


AFFI  (D 25538)

Aug 29, 2007, 1:09 PM
Post #102 of 364 (2270 views)
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Re: [kallend] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

GoodnessÖ

I sat and read most of the posts in this thread and it is a noodle scratcher, no doubt about thatÖ

I still do not think I could sit down and explain to someone who has been using this ďruleĒ (myth, whatever you wanna call it) why it does not work.

Can anyone dumb it down into simple to understand 6th grade level terms? Without equations or quantum smartness?
Just in plain and simple easy to understand, easy to explain and easy to remember terms?

Iíll admit it, I ainít too bright, but I suppose yaíll didnít need me to tell you that eh?

Post #9 seems to explain what to use right? Do we all agree on that?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 29, 2007, 1:22 PM
Post #103 of 364 (2259 views)
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Re: [AFFI] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

>Can anyone dumb it down into simple to understand 6th grade level terms?

Simplest explanation - because groups never reach that 45 degree angle, ever. So if you use that method accurately you will never be able to jump.

Slightly simpler explanation - because when you look out the door at a given group falling away from the plane, they always look the same, no matter what the ground winds (or upper winds) are doing. It gives you no information.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 29, 2007, 1:32 PM
Post #104 of 364 (2246 views)
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Re: [billvon] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

What angle the jumpers appear when viewed from the doorway is a function of the jumpers' terminal velocities and the airspeed of the aircraft. The fasster the a/c and slower the jumpers, the higher they'll appear, and vice versa. It obviously has nothing to do with separation. But fallacies have a life of their own. I wonder if these folks think frogs cause warts and Sun revolves around the Earth?

So . . for those of you who go by the 45 degree rule, is higher up safer or down lower safer? In other words, which side of 45 degrees are we looking for?Tongue


hongkongluna  (A 48878)

Aug 29, 2007, 1:42 PM
Post #105 of 364 (2241 views)
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Re: [AFFI] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

If you check out the skydive radio interview with Billvon, it may help clear things up. Hearing someone tell it is much better than reading it, i find.

http://www.skydiveradio.com/shows.htm

Download Show # 46.

If you havent listened to SDR yet, i think you'll like it.


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Aug 29, 2007, 2:05 PM
Post #106 of 364 (2246 views)
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Re: [billvon] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Can anyone dumb it down into simple to understand 6th grade level terms?

Simplest explanation - because groups never reach that 45 degree angle, ever. So if you use that method accurately you will never be able to jump.

Slightly simpler explanation - because when you look out the door at a given group falling away from the plane, they always look the same, no matter what the ground winds (or upper winds) are doing. It gives you no information.
True. Buying time between groups, especially solos: Solo newbies scare me the most. I tend to observe who's going out after me and assess their skill and attitude for exit. A solo jumper does not have to have set up time in the door like say a team or school or bigway. In SD I tried a different approach instead of 'telling' the newbie solo to use '45d' or count fleas on kallends dog or 10seconds please, I just simply 'ask' them if they were going to scare the shit out of me when we open our parachutes.they replied with confidence a simple no. They seemed to understand my point and had proper separation. As silly and improper as a training method as it was, it worked. I'm just attempting to 'buy time' so homie does'nt kill me or my teamate without hosing the jumprun.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Aug 29, 2007, 6:19 PM
Post #107 of 364 (2192 views)
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Re: [AFFI] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

There was an explanation early that made it pretty clear. You can only get 45 degrees if the sideways speed is just equal to the downward speed (think about it, and that makes sense). That only happens immediately after exit (which we all agree is unrealistic) and after opening (which is also unrealistic). Any other time, it just isn't happening.

Wendy W.


RogerRamjet  (D License)

Aug 30, 2007, 7:38 AM
Post #108 of 364 (2108 views)
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Re: [azureriders] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But IMO, anyone trusting a visual rule of any kind, could also consider leaving the altimeter at home. After all you already have your internal clock and your ability to stare at the groundCrazy

That is not to say that I dont believe skills such as visual recognition are not valuable and good back ups.

Interesting, I consider my eyes my primary altimeter and the mechanical devices the backups... So far my eyes have never failed me while the mechanical devices have failed a couple of times...


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 30, 2007, 7:57 AM
Post #109 of 364 (2097 views)
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Re: [AFFI] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Like Dracula, it never seems to die.


kallend  (D 23151)

Sep 2, 2007, 8:58 PM
Post #110 of 364 (1939 views)
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The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Like Dracula, it never seems to die.

A guy at the DZ today told me that he's heard the S&TA at another (turbine) DZ telling beginners to use this "rule" just last week!


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Sep 2, 2007, 10:24 PM
Post #111 of 364 (1927 views)
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Re: [kallend] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

A guy at the DZ today told me that he's heard the S&TA at another (turbine) DZ telling beginners to use this "rule" just last week!
Ignorance will never become extinct.UnsureTongue


AFFI  (D 25538)

Sep 3, 2007, 9:52 AM
Post #112 of 364 (1867 views)
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Re: [kallend] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A guy at the DZ today told me that he's heard the S&TA at another (turbine) DZ telling beginners to use this "rule" just last week!

At least they have something to do. So what?
Some schools dont teach their students about the RSL, some teach the PCIT as a partial malfunction - there is a lot of misinformation out there.

Really, it's ok...


jee  (C License)

Sep 4, 2007, 12:27 PM
Post #113 of 364 (1740 views)
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Re: [kallend] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Like Dracula, it never seems to die.

A guy at the DZ today told me that he's heard the S&TA at another (turbine) DZ telling beginners to use this "rule" just last week!

Last March during safety day our S&TA explained in detail the 45 degree rule and how it works! When questioned about it he said "it just works, it always has before so why not now. Plus, any other way is too hard to figure out." I also hear very "high jump" skydivers instructing less experienced jumpers to use the 45 degree rule on a regular basis. How does a guy like me (low jump numbers) tell these people they don't have a clue?


chuck411  (D 26024)

Sep 4, 2007, 1:35 PM
Post #114 of 364 (1720 views)
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Re: [jee] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

"You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink"

You have several choices from my point of view.
I was recently at a DZ where they preached the 45 rule and as I was doing recurrancy training I just did as I was told however......When it was suggested that the peeps b4 were at 45 I continued my counting in my head so as to make sure the space between us was safer for me. Since I was the one initiating the climbout and count I had control over when I jumped. :) I gave a FF trio about 18 seconds from the time they left to the time I started my arch:)
They can scream at ya, but they cant make ya do what they want unless you allow it. If they are giving you grief about it then you always have the option to find a new place to jump. you may have to drive farther but hey atleast you will feel safer and more comfortable. However I would try and explain to the DZ why it is you are leaving. not in a Fuck you tone but in a clear even manner. maybe if they hear the same type of feedback from jumpers who are leaving they will think maybe they have a point...Maybe they will still not like it but change.. Maybe they will tell you Fuck Off. But atleast you tried to make things better.
Do what you have to do and when faced with the stone wall mentality of the 45 rule sometimes it is just best to move on to safer, more comfortable pastures.

"A Good leader knows how and when to lead but also knows how and when to follow"


AFFI  (D 25538)

Sep 4, 2007, 2:48 PM
Post #115 of 364 (1696 views)
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Re: [chuck411] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I gave a FF trio about 18 seconds from the time they left to the time I started my arch

After reading about your recurrencey jump, I am not certain when you decided to begin to arch Tongue

Okay, so how much time elapsed from the time their feet left the airplane and your feet left the airplane?


chuck411  (D 26024)

Sep 4, 2007, 2:58 PM
Post #116 of 364 (1690 views)
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Re: [AFFI] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL ok On the jump I was refering to it was about 18 seconds time from thier feet leaving to mine leaving and the Arch was right out the door on that oneBlush

The other jump I was first out with the JM since the rest of the plane was all Tandems:)


mark  (D 6108)

Sep 4, 2007, 3:03 PM
Post #117 of 364 (1685 views)
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Re: [chuck411] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When it was suggested that the peeps b4 were at 45 I continued my counting in my head so as to make sure the space between us was safer for me.

Just to be clear: are you saying the previous group was at 45, but it wasn't enough? Or that other folks on the airplane thought the group was at 45 but you were using a different method to estimate how long to wait?

Mark


chuck411  (D 26024)

Sep 4, 2007, 3:14 PM
Post #118 of 364 (1679 views)
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Re: [mark] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Im saying that when I as told that I should wait for a 45 from the group ahead of me, knowing that they will never get to a 45 I continued my count as normal even when it was pointed out that they had reached a 45 in thier eyes,(the JM). I was not comfortable with the seperation we would have had or the lack there of.

yes I had been out of the sport for a long time but my eyes and my brian still work just fine:) If I am not comfortable then I am not jumping. Been there done that against my gut and better judgement and am lucky to be alive. (Refering to not following my gut and better judgement) If it was brought up to me why I took so long to get out and jump then I would have explained to the best of my abilty why I made the decisions I made. If it was then problem with the DZ or JM then I simply would move on to safer more comfortable pastures. :)


AFFI  (D 25538)

Sep 4, 2007, 3:17 PM
Post #119 of 364 (1675 views)
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Re: [chuck411] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps 18 seconds was a bit of a long time to wait.

It is a good idea to follow along with the guidelines set forth at the DZ you are jumping at. Ok, you learned online that 45degrees does not work, but you also must have learned what does and 18 seconds is a bit outside that envelope no?

Were you the last jumpers to leave the plane? If there were others hollering at you sounds like there were others waiting to exit behind you, what does over extending your time in the door do their spot?

OTOH you are responsible for your safety first right?

So, where do we balance the equation?


chuck411  (D 26024)

Sep 4, 2007, 3:57 PM
Post #120 of 364 (1665 views)
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Re: [AFFI] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Perhaps 18 seconds was a bit of a long time to wait.
actually I donít believe 18 seconds was too long of a wait since that the proven physics says that FF's going out first followed by RW's causes dangerous close opening windows due to RW drift vs FF drift. If the time I extended to allow a safer separation caused the jumpers behind me to be a bit long on the spot then there should be a go around. no?
Quote:
Were you the last jumpers to leave the plane?
Nope we were second out and jump run that entire day was ify. In fact 2 passes became the norm that day.
Quote:
OTOH you are responsible for your safety first right?
I have an issue with this statement on a personal level.
I believe its difficult to maintains others safety if your safety is compromised in doing so. However...In my life I have often been in situations where I have abandoned My safety to ensure others Safety. From doing Executive Protection, to Army service. to being in situations in real life b4 I was even trained to be a bullet Catcher where there has been gun fire and I without worrying about me have made sure that others were safe b4 taking action to secure my own safety.

now the dilemma arises of do as I say not as I do.... LOL I have instructed others under my command that they should do the exact opposite of what it is I do, Have done , or will do in those types of situations. I accept the risks involved in those situations and if my life is the cost of others saving their lives then I'm comfortable with that.


As far as finding Balance I do not have the answer to that but will always work towards learning and finding that balance.

As far as the bit about
Quote:
It is a good idea to follow along with the guidelines set forth at the DZ you are jumping at.

If those guidelines are not sound and safe in my eyes then I guess it would be time for me to move on donít you think?


*Edited for Spelling and content*Smile


(This post was edited by chuck411 on Sep 4, 2007, 4:03 PM)


chuck411  (D 26024)

Sep 4, 2007, 4:06 PM
Post #121 of 364 (1668 views)
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Re: [chuck411] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

And on a side note to this conversation...
when I first started skydiving in 01 I questioned the 45 Rule and was then told ok then count to 8 seconds minimum and extend based on other variables such as size of groups and winds.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Sep 4, 2007, 6:21 PM
Post #122 of 364 (1638 views)
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Re: [chuck411] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Perhaps 18 seconds was a bit of a long time to wait.
actually I donít believe 18 seconds was too long of a wait since that the proven physics says that FF's going out first followed by RW's causes dangerous close opening windows due to RW drift vs FF drift. If the time I extended to allow a safer separation caused the jumpers behind me to be a bit long on the spot then there should be a go around. no?
Quote:
Were you the last jumpers to leave the plane?
Nope we were second out and jump run that entire day was ify. In fact 2 passes became the norm that day.
Quote:
OTOH you are responsible for your safety first right?
I have an issue with this statement on a personal level.
I believe its difficult to maintains others safety if your safety is compromised in doing so. However...In my life I have often been in situations where I have abandoned My safety to ensure others Safety. From doing Executive Protection, to Army service. to being in situations in real life b4 I was even trained to be a bullet Catcher where there has been gun fire and I without worrying about me have made sure that others were safe b4 taking action to secure my own safety.

now the dilemma arises of do as I say not as I do.... LOL I have instructed others under my command that they should do the exact opposite of what it is I do, Have done , or will do in those types of situations. I accept the risks involved in those situations and if my life is the cost of others saving their lives then I'm comfortable with that.


As far as finding Balance I do not have the answer to that but will always work towards learning and finding that balance.

As far as the bit about
Quote:
It is a good idea to follow along with the guidelines set forth at the DZ you are jumping at.

If those guidelines are not sound and safe in my eyes then I guess it would be time for me to move on donít you think?


*Edited for Spelling and content*Smile
Was the jumprun into the wind or with the wind? What did ground speed look like while you were looking out the door for the 18 seconds? Were you creeping along or really moving?


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Sep 4, 2007, 7:21 PM
Post #123 of 364 (1627 views)
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Re: [jee] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

Like Dracula, it never seems to die.

A guy at the DZ today told me that he's heard the S&TA at another (turbine) DZ telling beginners to use this "rule" just last week!

Last March during safety day our S&TA explained in detail the 45 degree rule and how it works! When questioned about it he said "it just works, it always has before so why not now. Plus, any other way is too hard to figure out." I also hear very "high jump" skydivers instructing less experienced jumpers to use the 45 degree rule on a regular basis. How does a guy like me (low jump numbers) tell these people they don't have a clue?
How do you tell a jumper how to give you seperation on exit in terms that they will actually understand and do as you intend for them to do? Not saying the 45 degree 'rule' is right. How do you do it Maestro?


AFFI  (D 25538)

Sep 4, 2007, 7:29 PM
Post #124 of 364 (1624 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How do you tell a jumper how to give you seperation on exit in terms that they will actually understand and do as you intend for them to do? Not saying the 45 degree 'rule' is right. How do you do it Maestro?

So giving the 45 degree thing to a jumper who doesnít quite get separation yet makes sense?
Why not tell them to count, and train them to do that while on student status?

Or count fleas on the cat Ė whatever creates separation eh?

How many incidents have occurred over the years that were directly attributable to exit separation?
Perhaps this may be a key inquiry to this whole debate.
How many deaths has it caused?
I don't know...


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Sep 4, 2007, 7:43 PM
Post #125 of 364 (1619 views)
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Re: [AFFI] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
How do you tell a jumper how to give you seperation on exit in terms that they will actually understand and do as you intend for them to do? Not saying the 45 degree 'rule' is right. How do you do it Maestro?

So giving the 45 degree thing to a jumper who doesnít quite get separation yet makes sense?
Why not tell them to count, and train them to do that while on student status?

Or count fleas on the cat Ė whatever creates separation eh?

How many incidents have occurred over the years that were directly attributable to exit separation?
Perhaps this may be a key inquiry to this whole debate.
How many deaths has it caused?
I don't know...
Answer my questions. Hurry I gotta go. How do you achieve separation with a jumper on the A/C. Better yet , what do you tell the jumpers exiting behind you? anything? Verbatum please, as if I was newbie jumping out after you.


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