Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK

 

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speedy

Dec 14, 2005, 12:23 AM
Post #51 of 364 (3412 views)
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The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not surprising that the 45 degree rule is still being used by people when it is taught to students at one of the biggest dropzones in the world. Unimpressed


tso-d_chris

Dec 14, 2005, 10:32 AM
Post #52 of 364 (3377 views)
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Re: [speedy] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's not surprising that the 45 degree rule is still being used by people when it is taught to students at one of the biggest dropzones in the world. Unimpressed

Another reason why a bigger drop zone does not necessarily equate to a a safer drop zone for students, with superior student training.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Dec 14, 2005, 3:20 PM
Post #53 of 364 (3344 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

You'd be suprised - from my jazz and classical background, most people CAN'T count to ten and be within 15 percent of the actual 10th second. Counting is tough to do, especially when the least bit of adrenaline is involved. Simply put, COUNT SLOW (-:


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Dec 14, 2005, 4:32 PM
Post #54 of 364 (3324 views)
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Re: [freakydiver] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right, some people count fast and some people count slow. (I always counted fast as a student; once I figured this out, I just picked numbers 30% higher and it all worked out for me.)

If I see someone right on top of me out the door, though, I'll remember to tell them a bigger number next time we jump, or I'll let them go first. Smile

And the people that count slow waiting to jump after you? OPP/SEP. Cool


firstime  (B 28972)

Dec 14, 2005, 7:37 PM
Post #55 of 364 (3302 views)
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Re: [kallend] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

I have read the responses and yet to hear your
solution as to WHAT the general rule of thumb should be. I have used both time and visuals dependent on winds on jump run. This type of thread gets so out of hand and way off the subject that no one knows what the hell to think. I have never taken a protractor with me to use @ jump run.
There are two many varibles to say "get out @ 45d"
I think it's just a good point in a perfect world. Alot
of the ppl out there (dropzone.com) have alot of talent but I am starting to think that maybe I have
drifted into a defense attorneys forum.

PS: do you think an RSL is a good choice?


sundevil777  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 7:44 PM
Post #56 of 364 (3298 views)
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Re: [firstime] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have read the responses and yet to hear your
solution as to WHAT the general rule of thumb should be.

Go to post 9 of this thread.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Dec 15, 2005, 8:23 AM
Post #57 of 364 (3240 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

off topic but i have this exit on video - a three way sit of us. i tell the solo sit behind me give us 10 seconds on that particular day given the winds etc. in the video, i count THREEEEEEE and see him exiting. 3. three. We discussed it needless to say once on firma.


kallend  (D 23151)

Dec 15, 2005, 12:26 PM
Post #58 of 364 (3209 views)
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Re: [FrogNog] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're right, some people count fast and some people count slow. (I always counted fast as a student; once I figured this out, I just picked numbers 30% higher and it all worked out for me.)

If I see someone right on top of me out the door, though, I'll remember to tell them a bigger number next time we jump, or I'll let them go first. Smile

And the people that count slow waiting to jump after you? OPP/SEP. Cool

Stick on digital timer by the door, less than $10


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Dec 15, 2005, 2:10 PM
Post #59 of 364 (3187 views)
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Re: [thepollster] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Surprising enough there are way less fatalities due to separation between groups. Are you looking for a clear/bulletproof answer on how to judge separation? One way that I know has worked well is having an jumprun coordinator in the aircraft(call'm what you want,you get the idea)hav'nt seen this method done in years. Mr.Mullins has done well with taking full responsibilty as the pilot in command. Todays young skydivers not only scare me when they go out after me, also have very little experience in spotting. Billvon's /2 may work well. I'll give that thought as i judge separation between my group and the next. Seems each day has it's very own perfect scenario for separation. Usually the amount of time between groups is said among jumpers and sometimes by manifest,usually after a jumper complains about the separation given on their previous jump. Please help me to understand, just what is the latest strategy for separation? Was time, 45 degrees, what is the proper use of terms regarding separation to tell jumpers?


canedraw4  (A 104964)

Dec 16, 2005, 2:18 PM
Post #60 of 364 (3128 views)
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Re: [nathaniel] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The only thing that proves a theory is observation.

That's quite an epistemological theory you've got there. How would you prove it?

Tongue
word of the day............epistemological


crwpj  (D 12852)

Dec 20, 2005, 10:44 AM
Post #61 of 364 (3021 views)
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Re: [kallend] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If I see someone right on top of me out the door, though, I'll remember to tell them a bigger number next time we jump, or I'll let them go first.

And the people that count slow waiting to jump after you? OPP/SEP.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Stick on digital timer by the door, less than $10
...
i just don't see alot of seperation issues resulting from using flawed systems, but i do see those issues more often with flawed execution, specifically the lack of attention given to insuring seperation no matter what system is used. a digital timer just gives some people a different thing to ignore. i swear that some people get so amped right before exit that if you handcuffed them to the airplane and told them you would give them the key in eight seconds, they would gnaw their arm off and exit in two.


freakydiver  (D 26421)

Dec 20, 2005, 10:46 AM
Post #62 of 364 (3019 views)
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Re: [crwpj] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

"i swear that some people get so amped right before exit that if you handcuffed them to the airplane and told them you would give them the key in eight seconds, they would gnaw their arm off and exit in two."

i love it. my new sig.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Dec 20, 2005, 10:50 AM
Post #63 of 364 (3014 views)
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Re: [crwpj] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
...i just don't see alot of seperation issues resulting from using flawed systems, but i do see those issues more often with flawed execution...

Ah, well stated.


Anyway, Kallend & Et All,

Failing the 45 degree rule, what do y'all propose be used? ... probably means a new thread...
Unimpressed


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 20, 2005, 10:57 AM
Post #64 of 364 (3010 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

>Failing the 45 degree rule, what do y'all propose be used?

Time.

If you don't want to think, use 10 seconds. Works 90% of the time.

If you want to do a tiny bit of thinking, always use at least 6-7 seconds. If uppers are strong, and you're flying into them, then wait (uppers/2) seconds. (Uppers/3) works better for faster planes (CASA, King Air.)

If you want to do more math, then the exact separation you will get it (winds at opening altitude + aircraft groundspeed) * seconds. If winds at opening altitude are 20kts (33 feet per second) and the aircraft is flying with a groundspeed of 70 knots (117 feet per second) then waiting 7 seconds will give you 1050 feet of separation. (Assuming all speeds into the wind, winds same direction.)

If you really just want to look at something, look at the ground, wait until you have covered 1000 feet, then go.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Dec 20, 2005, 11:24 AM
Post #65 of 364 (3004 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Failing the 45 degree rule, what do y'all propose be used?

Refer back to post #9 in this thread,specifically the attached Excel spreadsheet.


kallend  (D 23151)

Dec 20, 2005, 5:55 PM
Post #66 of 364 (2958 views)
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Re: [billvon] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Failing the 45 degree rule, what do y'all propose be used?

Time.

If you don't want to think, use 10 seconds. Works 90% of the time.

If you want to do a tiny bit of thinking, always use at least 6-7 seconds. If uppers are strong, and you're flying into them, then wait (uppers/2) seconds. (Uppers/3) works better for faster planes (CASA, King Air.)

If you want to do more math, then the exact separation you will get it (winds at opening altitude + aircraft groundspeed) * seconds. If winds at opening altitude are 20kts (33 feet per second) and the aircraft is flying with a groundspeed of 70 knots (117 feet per second) then waiting 7 seconds will give you 1050 feet of separation. (Assuming all speeds into the wind, winds same direction.)

If you really just want to look at something, look at the ground, wait until you have covered 1000 feet, then go.

What he said.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Dec 20, 2005, 6:15 PM
Post #67 of 364 (2952 views)
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Re: [billvon] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it worth the added complication of leaving more time after an 8-10 way than after a 4-way?


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Dec 20, 2005, 7:25 PM
Post #68 of 364 (2939 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is it worth the added complication of leaving more time after an 8-10 way than after a 4-way?

AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

"Pull Low for Safety"

*runs away*

Crazy


azureriders  (D 28830)

Dec 24, 2005, 5:50 PM
Post #69 of 364 (2864 views)
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Re: [kallend] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

I first read this post a while back and was easily able to agree that the 45 degree rule is mathmatically impossible. Last weekend I got ready to do my first solo after AFF and I asked one of my Instructors what seperation I should give on that load and low and behold one of the up jumpers over heard me and all the way to alltitude I had to hear how the 45 degree rule worked and how I should not count or listen to my instructor, just watch for the 45 degree angle. In an effort to not come off as the stucent telling the up jumper how things work, I just set quitly until it was my turn to COUNT. The guy went in the group ahead of me so I did not have to listen to him tell me I did it wrong.


darkwing  (D 4164)

Dec 25, 2005, 11:36 AM
Post #70 of 364 (2833 views)
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Re: [azureriders] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

You should print out the important posts and the excel spreadsheet that is cited in this thread and anonymously give it to that person. ALso, maybe post it at your DZ.


skydivejunky  (D 22209)

Jan 2, 2006, 6:08 AM
Post #71 of 364 (2738 views)
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Re: [kallend] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

Trying to argue with someone that believes in the 45 degree rule is worse than argueing about politics or religion!


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 2, 2006, 8:41 AM
Post #72 of 364 (2717 views)
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Re: [skydivejunky] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Trying to argue with someone that believes in the 45 degree rule is worse than argueing about politics or religion!

Just ask them to tell you which of Newton's laws they used to justify it.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 2, 2006, 9:43 AM
Post #73 of 364 (2704 views)
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Re: [kallend] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

>Just ask them to tell you which of Newton's laws they used to justify it.

They will reply "I trust my EYES and not some dead guy's formula!" (I've had this argument about a dozen times.)


sundevil777  (D License)

Jan 2, 2006, 11:53 AM
Post #74 of 364 (2683 views)
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Re: [kallend] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Trying to argue with someone that believes in the 45 degree rule is worse than argueing about politics or religion!

Just ask them to tell you which of Newton's laws they used to justify it.

A condescending reply such as that will do nothing to get them to see the light. They will be less likely to want to listen to you when you do explain the principles in a way they can understand.

So you're smarter than most jumpers when it comes to physics, but the DZ is not your classroom, other jumpers are not your students.


tr027  (D License)

Jan 2, 2006, 7:10 PM
Post #75 of 364 (2640 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] The "45 degree rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I was making some jumps at Perris last week. When the winds picked up they advised everyone, using the loudspeaker of course, to use the 45 degree rule.


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