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student accident

 

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VisionAir  (D 23627)

Dec 20, 2005, 10:02 AM
Post #176 of 216 (1675 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That said, seeing as you are a direct line to the instructor. I have a question for you, one I am sure is fueling alot of angst on this board. All of the news reports that have sensationalized this incident have stated something to the effect that a skydiver survived a "double malfunction". More specifically, that 1st her main malfunctioned and second, her reserve malfunctioned. What I have read on these threads has led me to conclude that her main did not malfunction, rather it reacted exactly as it should have with one break unstowed. The point, her main was a very correctible pilot induced problem. Her main didnt malfunction, she did. It was pilot error, not gear error that caused her main to "malfunction", and it was correctible. That one simple facet of mistruth being sensationalized all over the media, that she survived a "double malfunction", when in truth, she caused the 1st one herself and it was correctible, gives the sport a black eye.

So I would say, I think alot of us would feel better about how this story is being played out in the media, if it contained some degree of truth to the main malfunction. It was pilot (error) induced, in all likelyhood due to less than adequate training from her instructor.

Lastly, I would love for one of the feel good reporters to ask "So, I see you live in Georgia, what made you decide to drive all the way to Alabama to jump that day?" I would love to see that question answered HONESTLY on national television: "We were not allowed to jump together at our local dropzone becuase student/instructor dating is frowned upon becuase it can lead to less than complete training methods, but we didnt like hearing we couldnt do what we wanted to do, so we drove to another DZ, far enough away from our local one so as not to get caught, and did what we were told we couldnt do at our own dz, and this horrible accident was a direct result of that incompetence."

If I heard either of those tidbits, the main didnt actually malfunction, and that they were forbidden to jump together at their local DZ, ie, THE TRUTH, then I think, people wouldnt be so up in arms over this incident.

Ok first about the main "malfunction". It was a pilot error induced malfunction. I also, wish they would mention that it was a correctable malfunction, but instead she chose to cut it away due to her "freaking out". Yes, it is a direct quote from Rick that Shayna says she "freaked out"....plain and simple. She understands in hind-sight what she should have done and kicks herself for it.

As far as it being Rick's lack of instruction, here's a new tidbit of information to derail that gossip. Rick did not teach her the FJC. It was a different instructor that taught her this course at their home dz. She was throughly shown all EPs from a hanging harness by this other instructor (who will remain nameless) that has taught thousands of FJCs. So this is a non-issue.

The reserve also malfunctioned and nobody knows, or will know why. The FAA has cleared the rigger (who will also remain nameless) of any negligence, and rightly so. While this is also a non-issue and not the cause of the incident, it is the effect or the reason for the freak accident. Yes a FREAK ACCIDENT!!! That's all.

Now about them coming to my home dz (in AR) instead staying at their own (in MO)....I don't know their exact reason other then the gossip I've read here, but I do know it wasn't that they "drove to another DZ, far enough away from our local one so as not to get caught". The dz in Siloam is the next closest dz to theirs and we all visit each others dz several times a year. Yes they may have come because they did want to jump together, but it wasn't a matter of "getting caught". This is also a non-issue.

If your looking for someone to blame over all this, Shayna says "blame me". This whole incident boils down to lack of experience, not lack of instruction. In hind sight it's easy for all of us to know what we would have done if it was us, and she now knows what she should do if it happens again. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right?


(This post was edited by VisionAir on Dec 20, 2005, 10:25 AM)


VisionAir  (D 23627)

Dec 20, 2005, 10:19 AM
Post #177 of 216 (1666 views)
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Re: [billvon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
(I have no idea whether this happened in this case of course.)

Seeing as the canopy opened and flew fine before the brake was accidentally released this would not be the case. This rig was also jumped by Rick just before Shayna's jump on it and it opened and flew fine.


LawnDart21  (D License)

Dec 20, 2005, 11:44 AM
Post #178 of 216 (1647 views)
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Re: [VisionAir] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It was a pilot error induced

CNN, GMA and every othr media outlet hasn't broadcast that. They broadcast "main gear malfunction", that's the big issue.

Quote:
Rick did not teach her the FJC

Irregardless of who taught her FJC, when Rick decided to take her an AFF jump, he assumed full responsibility for her and for her knowledge of emergency procedures. All your statement does is pass the buck and dodge the responsibility, which ultimately lies with the instructor who took her on that jump.

Quote:
Yes they may have come because they did want to jump together

If they were not allowed to jump together at their home DZ, for whatever the reason, dating or otherwise, you'd like to think that as an AFF rated instructor that he would have had the sensibility to accept a very reasonable and common restriction between dating instructor/student jumps.

Quote:
If your looking for someone to blame over all this, Shayna says "blame me".

I'm not blaming anyone. But if I were, Shayna is one of the last people I would blame for the incident. As a student she placed her trust in her instructor, and in this case, her instructor mishandled her trust and she almost died as a result of it.

It's not about blame, its about truth in the media and the appropriate person accepting responsibility for jeapardizing the life of a student simply becuase he didnt like hearing what he was told (that he couldnt jump with her at his DZ).

Quote:
This whole incident boils down to lack of experience, not lack of instruction.

There are many on here, myself included that would disagree with that statement. It was a lack of instruction. How to handle a released break on one side is not a "seasoned jumpers" only knowledge. If a first jump student doesnt know that releasing the other toggle will solve that problem, I would question the FJC they were in.

In the end, I'm just happy she is alive and well with a baby on the way. Nobody is perfect, life goes on. It'd just be a bit easier to swallow all this if the proper person (the instructor) bore the responisbility for the incident, not the student (Shayna) who didnt know any better.

Blue skies, Tom


stevebabin  (D 17200)

Dec 20, 2005, 11:56 AM
Post #179 of 216 (1637 views)
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Re: [sitflybaseboy] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It really depends on whose driving and whose skydiving!
OK....How's your ankle?Wink


theloadarranger

Dec 20, 2005, 12:10 PM
Post #180 of 216 (1630 views)
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Re: [VisionAir] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello all,

I am the DZO at Skyranch in Siloam Springs. Rick was attending a JCC/ICC that we were hosting. At the completion of that he and Shayna manifested to make a jump. Her rig was in date, TSO'd and had the proper equipment for a student jump. Rick had the appropriate license to conduct the jump.

Many mistakes were made that day, the first being me being unaware that Rick was not permitted to jump with her at their home dz. I also was not aware that they were dating. Had I known either of these facts, the jump would not have taken place. There were at least 3 other aff instructors available that day. Several people who were aware of the situation didn't take the time or the thought to make me aware of it.

As mentioned before (as I have been flamed by quite a few jumpers) This was not my student, my equipment, my instructor or instructional program, and just for shits&grins, it damn sure isn't my baby.

After in accident, the equipment was sent to FSDO in Little Rock and an incident report filed with FAA and USPA. The FAA reviewed video tape. The investigation was inconclusive and cleared the rigger of any wrongdoing in which I totally agree. Her main parachute had one toggle still stowed even after the cut-away. There was evidence of a tension knot at the cascades on her reserve which would have caused the slider up spin.

Upon review of the video and taking statements from all who witnessed the jump it appears that no effort was made to correct the toggle situation on the main before cutaway. The reserve opened with a slider up spin but IMHO it could have been corrected by the jumper (at least to a point where the canopy was flying in either a slow turn or straight), again that is my opinion. It appears that no action was taken to correct the problem.

Another mistake on my part was allowing the video to be given back to Rick. In the future, I will have on the assumption of risk agreement that any and all photos, video, etc. are the property of the dz should the dz request it.

IMHO there were many mistakes made by myself, Rick and Shayna. Although they have made decisions that perhaps, you or I would not have made concerning the media, they are their decisions and our conjecture about them is exactly that. Shayna is a lovely young girl and dealing with her situation as best as she can. We can all be thankful but by the grace of God go I.

Be thankful, review your procedures and learn from this.

Wolf Grulkey, DZO
Skydive Skyranch
dzo@skyranch.com


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 20, 2005, 12:15 PM
Post #181 of 216 (1626 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

There are many on here, myself included that would disagree with that statement. It was a lack of instruction. How to handle a released break on one side is not a "seasoned jumpers" only knowledge. If a first jump student doesnt know that releasing the other toggle will solve that problem, I would question the FJC they were in<<<<<<<<<<<
---------------------------------------------------------
Example of a FJC test question on our local test:

You look up and see (X) you realize this is not a malfunction if cleared by your hard deck. How do you fix this problem?

(X) could be linetwist, break released, etc..


(This post was edited by NelKel on Dec 20, 2005, 12:17 PM)


jlmiracle  (D License)

Dec 20, 2005, 12:22 PM
Post #182 of 216 (1616 views)
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Re: [NelKel] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are many on here, myself included that would disagree with that statement. It was a lack of instruction. How to handle a released break on one side is not a "seasoned jumpers" only knowledge. If a first jump student doesnt know that releasing the other toggle will solve that problem, I would question the FJC they were in<<<<<<<<<<<
---------------------------------------------------------
Example of a FJC test question on our local test:

You look up and see (X) you realize this is not a malfunction if cleared by your hard deck. How do you fix this problem?

(X) could be linetwist, break released, etc..

Did she answer correctly? I'm trying to figure out this post.

J


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 20, 2005, 12:38 PM
Post #183 of 216 (1592 views)
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Re: [jlmiracle] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Did she answer correctly?<<<<<<<<<

Well.......I can't be 100% sure but if I were to take a guess, I would say judging by the outcome of her accident "no".


BRYANGOESBOOM

Dec 20, 2005, 12:45 PM
Post #184 of 216 (1582 views)
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Re: [theloadarranger] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Why was she allowed to make the jump with her own gear??? Do you have student gear?? I belive my home dz will not you jump anything other than student gear until you have your A


THIS IS NOT A FLAME


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Dec 20, 2005, 1:10 PM
Post #185 of 216 (1566 views)
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Re: [BRYANGOESBOOM] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why was she allowed to make the jump with her own gear??? Do you have student gear?? I belive my home dz will not you jump anything other than student gear until you have your A

That's not a requirement, esp if a visiting AFF-I brings a student. The gear does have to have an RSL and an AAD.
Many have a way for the reserve side AFF-I to release the PC - is that required for the 2 AFF-I jumps?


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 20, 2005, 1:22 PM
Post #186 of 216 (1557 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

   
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In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why was she allowed to make the jump with her own gear??? Do you have student gear?? I belive my home dz will not you jump anything other than student gear until you have your A

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's not a requirement, esp if a visiting AFF-I brings a student. The gear does have to have an RSL and an AAD.
Many have a way for the reserve side AFF-I to release the PC - is that required for the 2 AFF-I jumps? <<<<<<<<<<<<<

These must be the rules for your perticular DZ, or the DZ where the accident happened. Because the BSR's allow an Instructor to waiver the use of a student's RSL. That is the only way your statement could be factual.

Regardless the DZ would have to be an USPA-GM anyway. If the DZ is not a GM then it only has to follow the FAR's. I know severial DZ that have a policy to not allow students to jump unless they use the DZ's gear only, regardless of what rig the AFF-I brings for his student. It a liability issue for the DZ. I am quite surprise to hear that they were allowed to jump an outside rig for student training.


caico.katie

Dec 20, 2005, 1:39 PM
Post #187 of 216 (1542 views)
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Re: [SkiD_PL8] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

They are not going to be on Letterman. I think they are headed back to Missouri today.

There is going to be some coverage of Shayna in the Kansas City Star with pictures of her before and after her accident. I was asked to send copies of her pictures to them anyway. I don't know when the story or pictures will be out.

Shayna gets a lot of guff from several family members, so any support she can get from people here I am sure would be greatly appreciated. She has supporting family too, but I think we all have at least one family member who constantly criticizes Frown.

She comes from a big family, so we all take turns, (with criticisms and support). Wink

----------------------------------------------------------


(This post was edited by caico.katie on Dec 20, 2005, 1:48 PM)


BRYANGOESBOOM

Dec 20, 2005, 1:48 PM
Post #188 of 216 (1530 views)
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Re: [theloadarranger] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

What reason did the instructor give you for bringing in a outside aff student ???

What is your policy on this sort of thing do you call the students home dz to check and make sure she has passed such and such levels or do you just take the student and instructors word for it ???

Seems like you trusted the wrong ppl here
Its sad that your dz may suffer from this terrible accident. I know all of nothing about running a dz so feel free to tell me to STFU


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 20, 2005, 1:55 PM
Post #189 of 216 (1526 views)
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Re: [VisionAir] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>Seeing as the canopy opened and flew fine before the brake was
>accidentally released this would not be the case.

In my case the canopy opened and flew fine as well before I discovered the problem with the brakes. Had I just started yanking on things, I may have ended up with the same problem she had.

Again, I am not claiming this is what happened. What I am saying is:

-putting very oversized canopies into containers can (and has) caused problems, specifically with brake lines/toggles since they are unprotected

-sometimes this problem isn't even apparent until _after_ the canopy was open and flying.

All of which means it's a good idea to have a rig that fits its main, with riser covers that do a good job of protecting the toggles/brake lines.


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 20, 2005, 2:08 PM
Post #190 of 216 (1516 views)
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Re: [NelKel] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[T]he BSR's allow an Instructor to waiver the use of a student's RSL.

The RSL requirement can be waived on a case-by-case basis for a student cleared for self-supervised freefall, i.e. Categories F/G/H (what used to be called Level 8).

Shayna's dive has been described as "Level 1" (Category A?), so an RSL would have been required, not waiverable.

Mark


caico.katie

Dec 20, 2005, 3:14 PM
Post #191 of 216 (1493 views)
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Re: [mark] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm just curious, how common are these kinds of things, I mean with brake lines/toggles?

Also, do you know if more accidents happen to newer jumpers, than more experienced jumpers? (In general)

and

Whenever there has been an accident, do any of you worry more about your own jumps (in the days or weeks following the accident)?

--------------------------------------


BRYANGOESBOOM

Dec 20, 2005, 3:24 PM
Post #192 of 216 (1479 views)
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Re: [caico.katie] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

These break lines/toggles...........thingies are easy to clear .........i worry about malfunctions on every one of my jumps thats why i practice my ep's and try to learn as much as i can from my senior jumpers and friends.



not directed to you caico

r the questions i asked not a concern???
ex. the student jumping personal gear and what the policy was on this sort of thing
i have read thru all threads relating to this accident and these questions have yet to be asked
or did i miss something


forgive my grammer and spelling


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 20, 2005, 3:35 PM
Post #193 of 216 (1474 views)
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Re: [BRYANGOESBOOM] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
r the questions i asked not a concern???
ex. the student jumping personal gear and what the policy was on this sort of thing
i have read thru all threads relating to this accident and these questions have yet to be asked
or did i miss something

forgive my grammer and spelling

Some attention to grammar and spelling would make your post easier to read.

Read the student gear requirements in the USPA BSRs. Scroll down to 2-1.K.2. It doesn't matter who owns the gear, which is why no one has raised the ownership issue before.

Mark


BRYANGOESBOOM

Dec 20, 2005, 3:42 PM
Post #194 of 216 (1470 views)
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Re: [mark] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

What about checking in with the students home dz before you let them make a aff jump???


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 20, 2005, 3:54 PM
Post #195 of 216 (1466 views)
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Re: [mark] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I Agree, and thank you for clearing up that RSL thing, and where it fits in to student training. My eairlier post was intended to mean.

IMO....If I owned a DZ I would not let any student jump anything except the gear I owned for liability reasons. I'm taking the risk by letting her jump, it going to be on gear I know and maintain. And furthermore she would have had to have passed my FJC test before jumping at my fictious DZ and it would have been a student jump conducted by my staff! Smile that is all I ment.


(This post was edited by NelKel on Dec 20, 2005, 3:57 PM)


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 20, 2005, 4:51 PM
Post #196 of 216 (1452 views)
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Re: [BRYANGOESBOOM] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What about checking with the student's home dz before you let them make an AFF jump?

Would that have made a difference?

This was the student's 10th jump. The instructor was appropriately rated. The equipment was TSO'd and BSR-legal for a student. No one is alleging there was a problem with the freefall portion of the skydive. Calling the student's home dz might have resulted in finding out the Rick-Shayna relationship and assigning a different freefall accompanist, but it's hard to see how that would have changed the student's reaction to canopy problems.

Mark


BRYANGOESBOOM

Dec 20, 2005, 5:07 PM
Post #197 of 216 (1446 views)
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Re: [mark] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What about checking with the student's home dz before you let them make an AFF jump?

Would that have made a difference?

This was the student's 10th jump. The instructor was appropriately rated. The equipment was TSO'd and BSR-legal for a student. No one is alleging there was a problem with the freefall portion of the skydive. Calling the student's home dz might have resulted in finding out the Rick-Shayna relationship and assigning a different freefall accompanist, but it's hard to see how that would have changed the student's reaction to canopy problems.

Mark

This jump would have never happend
we could rule out that her instructor was to blame and all fault would land on the student

Seems to me that more ppl are upset with the instuctor than anyone else involved in the accident
Im saying a simple phone call to make sure this student had x amount of jumps


sitflybaseboy  (C 15139)

Dec 20, 2005, 5:20 PM
Post #198 of 216 (1442 views)
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Re: [stevebabin] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

60 %, but getting better everyday. Still a little swelling and stiffness. However, my injury did not occur on a skydive, it was a BASE jump. Tongue
321CYA
Sitf


(This post was edited by sitflybaseboy on Dec 20, 2005, 5:30 PM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Dec 20, 2005, 5:25 PM
Post #199 of 216 (1437 views)
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Re: [billvon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

All I'll say to that is just take a look at the very 1st few frames of the video that's been posted of Shayna being "interviewed" on her jump video itself ("what are you going to do...") standing in the hangar, geared up and getting ready before the jump, and tell me what you see. ...??


stevebabin  (D 17200)

Dec 20, 2005, 6:16 PM
Post #200 of 216 (1423 views)
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Re: [sitflybaseboy] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
my injury did not occur on a skydive, it was a BASE jump.
I know....It was just too easy a shot....
Fock you , BTW!Tongue


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