Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
student accident

 

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mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Dec 15, 2005, 3:35 AM
Post #126 of 216 (2240 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So? And what if she could skipped that jump?

IMHO your question makes no sense.

The difference is should students skip all jumps or should students be put out on something bigger than a 126 reserve canopy?


(This post was edited by mr2mk1g on Dec 15, 2005, 3:47 AM)


heftee  (D 27090)

Dec 15, 2005, 6:36 AM
Post #127 of 216 (2169 views)
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Re: [Superfletch] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Had Shayna simply released her stowed brake or pulled down the unstowed brake line to a half break setting, her spin would have stopped and she would have realized that she was no longer in eminent danger and would have given herself plenty of time to decide on an appropriate course of action.

Again, I can understand her need to help with medical bills and expenses and all of that. I find myself more upset about what is NOT said on the interviews than by what is. I agree, her saying "I'm jumping again" is a good thing. The average person will think "wow, it must be great if even SHE is willing to go again!"
However, why hasn't she (from what I've seen - if she has I haven't seen it) say some of the stuff of what you said above? Why didn't she force the interview to explain possible reasons for what caused her spin and possible fixes. Yes, she's a student with less experience than us who claim we would have fixed it blah blah blah, but even though she didn't do this fix, it sure would be nice to hear an interview with intelligent information (bash in the interviewER not interviewEE) and explaination of the situation. I just get so mad the interviewER doesn't include an "expert" - someone to help shed some light on the incident. Our DZ.com forum's purpose is to learn from these situations - I wish the media would have the same intentions.
What I tell all the dozens and dozens of people who ask me about this is "It's a horrible accident and I'm glad she and her child are okay, but this is something that could have had a different turn out if she had done some things differently. I wish she had, but if she had, you wouldn't have seen the story on the news."
I'd like to express the wish that the USPA consider having a representative try to work with the media on these types of things. Oh yeah, I also wish for a few million bucks....


JeepDiver  (D License)

Dec 15, 2005, 6:58 AM
Post #128 of 216 (2154 views)
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Re: [heftee] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I find myself more upset about what is NOT said on the interviews than by what is

from the other thread.

I haven't seen the national TV interviews, only the online newsfeed which was posted in the other thread.

Consider this people for I have first hand knowledge. Most TV interviews are edited to the point of only telling the story the "News" station wants told. Most interviews will last up to an hour with several dozens questions asked and asked again in a different manner. The interview is then edited down to the sensational aspects of the story.

She's lucky she was even able to say she wants to skydive again once the baby is born and have that statement aired. After all she has been through it just makes her look foolish to the general public.

Most news vultures could care less about the people they interview or the truth to the story. It's themselves and their careers they are most interested in.

.....editied to add one example,

I'm sure some reporter asked her to remove her bridge which replaces her missing teeth. How does she look on air doing that?


OnYourBack  (D 25190)

Dec 15, 2005, 7:17 AM
Post #129 of 216 (2139 views)
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Re: [JeepDiver] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

The rig was a Reflex. Purchased from an experienced jumper. Unfortunately I don't know the size of the reserve at the moment but will get it. I don't believe it was a 126.


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 15, 2005, 7:59 AM
Post #130 of 216 (2108 views)
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Re: [OnYourBack] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The rig was a Reflex. Purchased from an experienced jumper. Unfortunately I don't know the size of the reserve at the moment but will get it. I don't believe it was a 126.

Reflex sizing chart: http://www.tridenthc.com/ReflexSizes.htm

A 190 main and 126 reserve didn't sound even close to right to me. My reflex holds a 120 reserve and MAYBE a ZP 150 main but it'd be a VERY tight squeeze.

Dave


Premier Remster  (C License)

Dec 15, 2005, 8:03 AM
Post #131 of 216 (2103 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave: it was reported that the rig was made for a 135 main.


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 15, 2005, 8:11 AM
Post #132 of 216 (2096 views)
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Re: [Remster] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, that just doesn't sound right to me. Mine was also designed for a 135 main (I think... a 135 fits perfectly). I barely squeezed an F111 150 main into it. A sabre2 190 wouldn't even come close to fitting in mine. Even with a 150, mine clearly looked overstuffed. I'd often have dbag corners hanging out on the sides of the main flap. Can't imagine what it would have looked like with a ZP 190. Mine was especially bad because the dbag was oversized, but still, I can't see a 190 going into a reflex made for a 135.

Dave


tso-d_chris

Dec 15, 2005, 8:18 AM
Post #133 of 216 (2090 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah, that just doesn't sound right to me. Mine was also designed for a 135 main (I think... a 135 fits perfectly). I barely squeezed an F111 150 main into it. A sabre2 190 wouldn't even come close to fitting in mine. Even with a 150, mine clearly looked overstuffed. I'd often have dbag corners hanging out on the sides of the main flap. Can't imagine what it would have looked like with a ZP 190. Mine was especially bad because the dbag was oversized, but still, I can't see a 190 going into a reflex made for a 135.

The container looks identical to one (previously?) owned by an experienced jumper from the instructor's home drop zone. If it is the same container, it was built for a Triathlon 135 main.


OnYourBack  (D 25190)

Dec 15, 2005, 8:24 AM
Post #134 of 216 (2085 views)
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Re: [tso-d_chris] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

The Reflex was sized for a 135, that was one of the issues people had with instructor using the 190 main. He was told by several people that it wasn't a good idea.


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 15, 2005, 9:27 AM
Post #135 of 216 (2033 views)
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Re: [heftee] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

The questions you pose you would have to ask her. I can't speak for her and wouldn't even want to.

I whole heartedly agree with the rest of what your saying. I wish Rick would step up to the plate and do his skydiving duty as an AFFI and rectify some of this but he hasn't and that's that.

As far as what you been telling people about the accident to help explain, it's just about the same thing I've been saying myself. What more can we do?


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Dec 15, 2005, 10:13 AM
Post #136 of 216 (1998 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah, that just doesn't sound right to me. Mine was also designed for a 135 main (I think... a 135 fits perfectly). I barely squeezed an F111 150 main into it. A sabre2 190 wouldn't even come close to fitting in mine.

It was indeed a 190 crammed into a a Reflex sized for a 135. And Chris, if you're thinking of the one that is a Refelx in a gawd-awful shade of pink, it's that one.

This was enough of a concern to Shayna that Rick did a test jump on it a couple hours before the fateful jump to reassure her that it was OK.

Right after the accident, I didn't see what the big deal was about the oversized main. Yes, it was putting undue wear and tear on the rig, but as it was a temporary situation and test jumps showed the system worked, I could understand it as a "make do" deal. Now having had some time to reflect and realize how many of Shayna's bad choices were appearantly made out of fear, I'd consider the rig/main combo t be one of the major factors in this just because it amped up Shayna's fear level.

-Blind


(This post was edited by BlindBrick on Dec 15, 2005, 11:09 AM)


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 15, 2005, 10:24 AM
Post #137 of 216 (1988 views)
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Re: [BlindBrick] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I was personally consulted as to whether or not I would think that rig would be OK for Shayna to jump. My answer was "NO". I didn't like the fact that with the Sabre2 190 crammed in there it was bulging so much and the flaps wouldn't even come close to aligning.

I know of several others that were consulted also and they said "no". I'm not even sure why we were asked because "they" decided to jump it anyhow. Just goes to show some of the poor judgement that was used.

Turns out my concerns were a moot point because the container opened fine both times it was jumped. However, had "they" taken the advice of their peers this incident probably would not have happened.

It just goes to show that if you value someones opinion enough to ask them for it, you might want to actually consider listening to it even if the answer is not what you want to hear.

As for the size of the reserve... I'm not positive. I can tell you that my DZO has had one ride under it himself so it has worked in the past...


hexadecimal

Dec 15, 2005, 11:22 AM
Post #138 of 216 (1950 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If this girl does continue in the sport, I really hope she is started back at AFF1 with a good instructor and quizzed several times to prove that she actually remembers the things she needs to know this time before she is allowed back in the air.

If YOU do continue in the sport, I really hope you learn to be less judgemental about other peoples performances during 'iregularities / incidents / malfunctions'...
Are you trying to say that she DIDN'T receive apparently substandard instruction and lack the proper knowledge to stay safe in the air? My point wasn't to insult her, my point is that she needs better training and she needs to have a better understanding of what is going on. I don't want anyone who has the attitude that their reserve is a "guaranteed open" in the air with me.

I'm really not sure what you mean by this. Is the general attitude when someone is a potential danger to themselves and others in this sport supposed to be "oh well, I'm just glad they want to jump again"?


SkiD_PL8  (A License)

Dec 15, 2005, 12:04 PM
Post #139 of 216 (1924 views)
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Re: [hexadecimal] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I just hope that Rick is not allowed to continue her training. Actually I don't think he should be training anyone, but that is for the USPA to decide. I am glad shayna got off as easy as she did since the odds were definitely stacked against her well before she stepped in the plane.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Dec 15, 2005, 12:14 PM
Post #140 of 216 (1916 views)
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Re: [BlindBrick] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It was indeed a 190 crammed into a a Reflex sized for a 135. And Chris, if you're thinking of the one that is a Refelx in a gawd-awful shade of pink, it's that one.

The 190 crammed into a smaller container doesnt bother me as much as what size reserve was in there. You can fit a much larger main in the main tray (I wouldnt recommend it, and it would be one ugly pack job) but that part doesnt scare me too much. Its the reserve...

Does some one KNOW what was the reserve?


jdthomas  (D License)

Dec 15, 2005, 1:09 PM
Post #141 of 216 (1892 views)
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Re: [Remster] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote from: riggerjoe on October 17, 2005, 04:17:05 PM
Right so it's something they both wanted yet her parents are not being told.. does not sound accidental to me at all.. but thanks for the update..
Joe


"joe... i've spoken to rick about this, and why her parents aren't yet being told. from what i understand, the fact that shayna just got divorced, is involved with rick, who is a skydiver, and she just got in a skydiving accident that nearly killed her, is causing understandable stress to her parents and siblings. from what i understand, shayna thinks adding the fact that she's pregnant is just a little too much stress for them at this time. i believe she's waiting for a more opportune moment to share this with her family, when they are more in a position to be excited about it as opposed to upset. some of her immediate family had not even met rick until the accident. so... it seems that rick thought it was common knowledge on IH that shayna was pregnant, but knew that shayna wanted to share it with her blood family at a more opportune time and rick's comment was merely to ensure shayna would be able to tell them on her own terms. is that all clear now?"

Just food for thought here.. this is a post accident conversation on a private site called Industrial haze. It is a chat site that persons from the DZ where the accident happend and the DZ where the instructor was from use to..well Chat!

The conversation is about Shayna and her new found upcoming motherhood.
With the recent knowledge that I have gained that she did not have health insurance, rick had no insurance and no one seemed to be holding a real full time job it makes me wonder where they thought money was going to come from to have a child.
It's now obvious they planned to have a child as per the words of Rick himself. and still had no means to support a child. that really makes me sad.
Joe


skydivedon  (D 25331)

Dec 15, 2005, 9:02 PM
Post #142 of 216 (1749 views)
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Re: [Superfletch] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

My, my, my... this istuation has certainly gotten a lot of attention....... around the world. I know many of you who have been posting, I know the instructor and have jupmed many, many times with most of you at FFE. Is a matter of fact, my FIRST and ONLY cut-away was for the EXACT same reason (many of you were there when I did it). I would not cut -away for that same reason now because I am EXPERIENCED! SHE WAS NOT! I see absolutely CANNOT and WOULD NOT fault a student for cutting awayy if THEY thought they had a problem that THEY could not figure out. PERIOD! Whether it's a good idea or a bad idea in retrospect is what we talk about with our instructors after we land safely with a good reserve.

She, obviously, thought she should cut-awayto save her damn life and she DID! THAT's what she, or any one of us, are taught to do. Don't hang there and try to figure it out until it's too late! We've all heard of jumpers with 1,000's of jumps who have done that and they don't make it. She at least did what SHE thought she should do ad THAT time. While there are lot's things that cloud the issue (boyfriend, girlfriend, wrong size bag, bad decisions, etc..) IMO the real issues that need to be looked at are:

1. Who packed her main and what happened to cause the problem?

2. Who packed her reserve and why did the slider not come down?

3. What was the quality of her instruction and did anyone else instruct her (or test her) besides her boyfriend? If so, did they feel she was capable of handling THAT Sabre II 190?

Now, we can all find fault with teaching your girlfriend anything becasue you generally are either too critical or not critical enough. THAT's why it's not a good idea. Like I said. I know the instructor pretty well and IMO he should have steered clear of doing that because of bad decisions he's made skydiving in the past. That's not to say that someone else could have instructed their boy/girl friend better, but knowing him, he should not have that.

I just could sit back and read all of the comments that are really not issues in the "accident". Thank GOD MY reserve opened properly when I did the same silly thing.


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 15, 2005, 9:06 PM
Post #143 of 216 (1746 views)
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Re: [skydivedon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Don you silly bastard... where the hell have you been? I miss my freeflying buddies... Haven't seen Hunter in ages either... When you coming back out?


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Dec 15, 2005, 10:06 PM
Post #144 of 216 (1728 views)
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Re: [skydivedon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1. Who packed her main and what happened to cause the problem?

Her main was packed by our DZ's packer. Sometimes we have more student pack jobs than he can get packed on a Sunday, so I've came in on weekdays so he could finish the work(FAA requires a rigger supervise packjobs that are done by anybody other than another rigger or the next person to jump the rig). Watching how thorough he was with them was the primary reason I agreed to let him apprentice under me. The kid's good and something like not stowing a brake is not the kind of error that he'd likely make.

If i had had any doubts about that, they would have been disproven by watching the main deploy. I saw Shayna's opening and the canopy opened flying straight and level. It did not begin to turn until several seconds after it fully opened. If it had been an unstowed brake, the canopy would have begin turning immediately upon opening.

-Blind


Zenister  (A 42)

Dec 15, 2005, 11:02 PM
Post #145 of 216 (1719 views)
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Re: [skydivedon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1. Who packed her main and what happened to cause the problem?

uh... based on several i witness accounts here, the packjob was never the problem.. its her actions and failure to address them properly that caused the problem...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 15, 2005, 11:38 PM
Post #146 of 216 (1709 views)
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Re: [skydivedon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

> I see absolutely CANNOT and WOULD NOT fault a student for cutting
> awayy if THEY thought they had a problem that THEY could not figure out.
> PERIOD! Whether it's a good idea or a bad idea in retrospect is what we
> talk about with our instructors after we land safely with a good reserve.

Which is what we are doing here. A brake fire can (and should) be noticed and fixed by a student. Reserves can and do malfunction; fixing a brake fire can prevent serious injury or death. (That doesn't mean that you should get all Old Testament on their ass - but it is an issue that should be discussed.)

Another question I would add to your list was reserve size. Smaller reserves can spin up faster; larger reserves make surviving mistakes under reserves (or even reserve malfunctions!) more likely.


mark135  (D License)

Dec 16, 2005, 1:31 AM
Post #147 of 216 (1695 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
On the contrary - I think his concern was the fact that it had a 126 RESERVE in there!!!

(possibly... although it would be a rather unusual container if it had a main pack tray sized for a 135 and a tempo 170 in the reserve).

Not really. I have a Stilleto 135 and a 181-m in my quasar.


Liemberg  (Student)

Dec 16, 2005, 1:39 AM
Post #148 of 216 (1693 views)
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Re: [hexadecimal] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know what kind of instruction she got, since I wasn't there when she got it. Were you?
And the fact that I'm glad someone wants to jump again doesn't mean that I actually think it is a good idea if they do, just means that I'm glad they survived and look back at their skydiving adventures in an overall positive way.
Saying blindly that she should get better instruction (and then 'all will be well'?) is saying here initial instruction was sub standard. Though this one has several of the signs of that being the case, it is not for me to judge in a public forum.
And neither for you.


hexadecimal

Dec 16, 2005, 2:04 AM
Post #149 of 216 (1687 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I see what you mean, and I'm not in any way attempting to insult or discredit your point of view... not that I'd have any way of doing so even if I was, considering the fact that I haven't even been around long enough to begin to learn anything of this sport.

It is only my opinion based on what I've heard and what the girl supposedly said, that she received poor instruction and needs to start over again with proper instruction to hopefully replace that.


skydivedon  (D 25331)

Dec 16, 2005, 6:56 AM
Post #150 of 216 (1627 views)
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Re: [Superfletch] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Fletch,
I'll be out in the spring back at it heavy again. Starting a new company is a lot of work and it takes a lot of time, but we're doing well.

As everyone has said in response to my post this was purely an accident that a student handled in the best way that she knew how at the time it happened. The questions I raised are not opinions or in any way accusations as to what did or did not cause the problem. They are devil's advocate questions that should be raised, analyzed and answered. If all of that was done and the findings were that it was an unfortunate accident, then so be it.

I still have a problem with why the reserve was screwed up when it opened. And, before anybody brings it up, I am NOT faulting the reserve packer, but only saying that the real problem with that reserve needs to be identified so that it can be communicated in a learning fashion to ALL reserve packers so they can be aware of it.

As for the actions (media contacts and coverage) after the accident, it is sad that the news stations, talk shows and the like are latching on to and sensationalizing an accident and a sport that's generally safer than driving to the airport. But, we should not be surprised because the media is not interested in the 1,000's of safe landings that occur in this sport everyday. The Andy Warhol "15 min. of fame" seems to have grabbed an ordinary couple and launched them into the international spot light. None of us should be surprised by that, but we can still be sickened by it. The good thing that came of this attention (in the slydiving community anyway) is that we're all talking about it and trying to learn from it.

After the "fame" goes away, this girl will still have to live with the injuries and disfugurement and we can only hope that she has no further complications. I don't think this will really hurt the sport in the long term and at least she is saying that she is not terrified of the sport and spreading THAT message. She still wants to do it, which is some consolation to the negative spin that could have been put on it.


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