I've gotta agree with superfletch a few posts up. How can we say what she needs to do differently next time if we don't know what she did this time? I don't know how much quizzing she did or how much instruction or practice she got before the jump.
Obviously any student needs to be taught the right things before every jump. But they can't be taught EVERYTHING. I don't remember learning what to do if my reserve is spinning before I did AFF 1. Maybe she was taught it and just panicked. Maybe she wasn't taught it at all. Were you? Are most students? Does it even matter?
(This post was edited by pilotdave on Dec 14, 2005, 1:19 PM)
I'm new to the sport too, and I have a question about your suggestion to try pulling on the rear risers to slow the descent (if flaring with toggles doesn't help). I've experimented a LITTLE with steering & flaring with risers while up high, and it's pretty hard to get a good grasp of something that thin and narrow. Here's the question: How would winding your hand and wrist around the riser (picture a snake going up a flagpole), with fingers gripping the tape, work?
To answer your question AGAIN... That was her 10th skydive. Up until then she had, had several tandems and a couple of IAD's. It was being treated as an AFF LVL 1. She was not cleared to be by herself and she was not by herself.
my bad - and entirely my fault for believing the media "It was her first AFF solo jump" Here an "AFF solo" is the last 3 jumps on AFF progression, when you are cleared for solo jumping. [And (um) you weren't answering my question "again"?? I didn't ask it before] Still, I do think that having a few tandems and especially the IADs does take her beyond a normal "first jumper".. but that is purely my opinion.
btw i made no comment about how i thought she should have handled the media.
I just used your post to start a bit of a rant... I know you hadn't asked it again but there are 3-4 posts on DZ.Com talking about this right now and that question has been asked and aswered several times.
As far as how to handle the media, etc... that part of the post I was directing to the general population of DZ.Com, not you in particular.
These people are my friends. I'm upset too that they haven't stepped up and clarified more. Basically, Shayna is doing all the talking and she really doesn't know what she's talking about. Rick is sitting beside her allowing her to say it thinking the whole time that if he stays out of it, no ill will, will come his way. My guess is that will haunt him down the road. Rick is not the brightest bulb on the tree. Rick made mistakes, Shayna made mistakes and now the WHOLE world knows about them. It just comes down to that. She starts every interview explaining to the interviewer she doesn't want to spin the story torwards the negative thinking that is covering her bases. She ends every interview saying she wants to jump again thinking that will not give us a "black eye". She's just naive and is catching all hell through here... I just don't think it's right.
FYI, that's $0.0166 in real money. Hm, not much value there..
I guess most of us couldn't care less what strangers think (unless it leads to more regulation of the sport). For most of us, we react to shitty publicity like this because it's just one more piece of uninformed ammunition our moms, siblings and coworkers use to give us grief with. Remember, "whuffo" means "Whuffo you f**king maniacs do that crazy shit for?" Don't you get tired of having that conversation? I know I do.
Shayna is doing all the talking and she really doesn't know what she's talking about. .... Rick is not the brightest bulb on the tree. Rick made mistakes, Shayna made mistakes and now the WHOLE world knows about them.
...And now these two are replicating themselves. Well, that's just great.
It is my understanding that she went through a Tandem/IAD/AFF progression... for whatever that's worth. She had several tandems for which she received some instruction on at least one. She did several IAD jumps which included Practice Pilot Chute Throws. Her AFF instructor then took her up for a Single Instructor AFF jump where she was only asked to do practice touches and circle of awareness as per a Lvl 1 dive. I'm not an AFF jumpmaster yet, so I'm not aware of all the intricasies of that discipline yet. This is just how I understand her progression to have went. Whether it's an acceptable method or not I'll let an AFF Instructor decide. Hope that information helps.
Tandem to AFF progression, aka IAF (Instructor Assisted Freefall) allows the student to do their first 3 jumps as tandems, with substantially the same learning objectives as the first 3 AFF jumps. The first solo jump is an AFF level 4.
IAF tandems receive as much ground school prior to their tandem jumps as AFF students.
One of the two drop zones on the Mt. Vernon airport, the airport these two jumpers previously jumped at, has been successfully using the IAF program for years, long before USPA's ISP.
Okay, I will be returning to the sport in the spring and due to currency issues I'll start at AFF 2. To tell you the truth I can't wait. I've learned so much by reading the incidents section but there are some questions I have about this particular one.
Since it's been so long since my level 1 training I have forgotten most of what I was taught concerning malfunctions. Is an "unstowed toggle" a toggle that is no longer connected to the velcrow? If so, what would cause this? I was taught to keep my eye on the canopy and note it's inflation and note the slider until the slider decends completely. Now, if I start spinning the first thing I'd do is immediately check the toggles, no? If indeed one is unstowed, I would grab it, bring it to the level of the other toggle and then release the other toggle and take it from there, correct? If this woman had done this, would she have been okay?
Second, it seems the slider was stuck on the reserve. How would this alter the performance of the reserve, or any canopy for that matter? Has it been determined exactly why she went into such a violent spin? I could only imagine this poor girl losing it completely under these circumstances with her inexperience. I admire her courage and determination to skydive again in the future.
Anyway I want to thank all of you for everything I'm learning from your posts - it's truly invaluable to me. I only have 3 jumps due to financial reasons but next year I'll have enough set aside to jump 1 or 2 times a week. I truly love this sport!
Is an "unstowed toggle" a toggle that is no longer connected to the velcrow? If so, what would cause this?
if I start spinning the first thing I'd do is immediately check the toggles, no? If indeed one is unstowed, I would grab it, bring it to the level of the other toggle and then release the other toggle and take it from there, correct? If this woman had done this, would she have been okay?
Second, it seems the slider was stuck on the reserve. How would this alter the performance of the reserve, or any canopy for that matter? Has it been determined exactly why she went into such a violent spin?
Hmmm... lemme tackle these one at a time. There are different types of toggles. Not all of them have velcro. When you pack a parachute you set the brakes in the half brake position. In shayna's case when she was performing her rear riser turns (brakes stowed) she dislodged a toggle and unset the brake on one side. This allowed her steering line to release which put that side of her canopy in full flight so it was flying faster than the other side of her parachute inducing a turn. This can happen on opening as well for many different reasons. Perhaps the slider pops them off or hell in a hard enough opening gravity can do it. Regardless, if you find yourself in a steep turn and spiraling on opening, YES, by all means check both toggles. You can pull the released brake down to the half brake setting to stop the turn or you can release the other side and allow it to go to full flight... I would suggest doing both quickly. Had Shayna simply released her stowed brake or pulled down the unstowed brake line to a half break setting, her spin would have stopped and she would have realized that she was no longer in eminent danger and would have given herself plenty of time to decide on an appropriate course of action.
As for the slider being stuck... no one really knows at this point. The FAA's findings were inconclusive. We're not sure why it didn't come down all the way... Many "theories" have been expressed but as I write this... no one really knows for sure. As you can planely see in the video, the slider being stuck more than halfway up the lines is hampering the parachute from FULLY opening. One side of the parachute seems to be more cupped than the other and this would explain the spin. Not being fully opened and in a spinning configuration increased the speed of decent. About the only course of action she had here was to pump the risers and toggles for all she was worth. In your FJC you should have been told to NEVER give up... We told you that for your health... NEVER give up. That last second could be the one that releases the slider and allows the parachute to open saving your life... You hear me? NEVER GIVE UP!!!
billvon (D 16479)
Dec 14, 2005, 4:00 PM
Post #114 of 216
What's the fear? Skydiving is going to go out of business because of some bad publicity?
I'm not sure how it is like in the USA, but in Norway, the fact is that after serious accidents, the number of students for FJCs actually increases... It is weird, but true. Which makes me quite unsure about how bad this really is, at least when it comes to the business aspect.
When you pack a parachute you set the brakes in the half brake position.
> Is this true of all canopies? The toggles on my student rig were almost full arm length above my shoulder (velcro), and half brake would be shoulder level.
In shayna's case when she was performing her rear riser turns (brakes stowed) she dislodged a toggle and unset the brake on one side. This allowed her steering line to release which put that side of her canopy in full flight so it was flying faster than the other side of her parachute inducing a turn.
> I see, so she just panicked. That may explain the "snap" she heard then.
As you can planely see in the video, the slider being stuck more than halfway up the lines is hampering the parachute from FULLY opening. One side of the parachute seems to be more cupped than the other and this would explain the spin. Not being fully opened and in a spinning configuration increased the speed of decent. About the only course of action she had here was to pump the risers and toggles for all she was worth.
> Understood, I remember this now from the FJC. I remember my instructor telling me to repeatedly flare, but I forgot what would you do with the risers if this fails?
In your FJC you should have been told to NEVER give up... We told you that for your health... NEVER give up. That last second could be the one that releases the slider and allows the parachute to open saving your life... You hear me? NEVER GIVE UP!!!
> Now this I do remember. Between the FJC and the other two half hour trainings I must have heard this, ummm, at least a couple dozen times.
About the only course of action she had here was to pump the risers and toggles for all she was worth.<<
Or once one realizes that pumping the breaks will not fix the slider, with both hands if nessary suspend you entire weight on the opposite side riser, to GET THE CANOPY LEVEL OVERHEAD! Then releasing a little bit of tension to allow it to turn 90 degrees or so and aim for a big grassy field, PLF.
Also if you pump the toggles and the slider is still stuck up the lines, flare fully, and hold momentarly, then only pump the lower end of the stroke will clear the slider. But in any case never give up.
Are you talking about SD:MO? I know when I was going to Rigger's School there, Fiesty claimed to have pretty much invented the IAF method. Rick jumped at FFE, the other dz at Mt. Vernon.
As I understood it, he was working with IAF simultaneously with, but independently of Roger Nelson. It is actually an effective program. I didn't go through it, but I was around it while I was jumping there. His students tended to do very well with canopy control, compared to other student programs I've been around.
(This post was edited by tso-d_chris on Dec 14, 2005, 6:22 PM)
If this girl does continue in the sport, I really hope she is started back at AFF1 with a good instructor and quizzed several times to prove that she actually remembers the things she needs to know this time before she is allowed back in the air.
If YOU do continue in the sport, I really hope you learn to be less judgemental about other peoples performances during 'iregularities / incidents / malfunctions'...
Shanya is NOT the first person to chop a canopy where the only problem is a popped toggle. I have seen several people do this and personaly made that same mistake in 1982 but was fortunate enough to end up under a good reserve.
She wasn't as fortunate as I was.
From the moment the reserve malfunctioned "all bets were off" as the saying goes. Could someone with a lot more experience than she has handle that situation and produce a better result? Maybe, but your average "less than 100 jumps wonder" is also a "zero reserve rides wonder" and things have a tendency to go really really fast in the real world...
And giving the sport or the DZ or the DZO or the rigger a black eye? Come on...
The local DZO is probably hiring extra staff for next season because of this!
The story that gets everybody so worked up is as much selective hearing from the journalists as what she is actually saying.
"I'll jump again!" Way to go girl!
One final note: Since she is suddenly with a child, and flooded with medical bills one of you yuppie skydivers who makes his jump money in the dental profession care to give her a break? *)
You'll earn lots of Karma points which is good when you fall out of airplanes with two closed packages on your back... everybody knows that!
(Besides - she might make it to Oprah... can't be bad for business...)
*) yeah, I know - "don't go skydiving without good medical insurance"... but that shouldn't result in having her go through life without teeth now shouldn't it?
Hmmm. Well, I've read all the messages on this entire thread and I have to say it's been quite interesting to hear everyone's viewpoints.
I only have 19 jumps, and I've been hounded countless times by family members, friends, everyone, asking me why the heck do keep doing this?
I had my first reserve ride on my 19th jump actually. And being that I have only 19 jumps, I'm not exactly sure what happened. I did a few static line jumps, a few hop and pops, and a few 5 second delays before I switched to AFF. I found both methods of instruction to be extremely educational!! I found static line to be great for canopy instruction without overwhelming worry of what happens in freefall. Then, when I felt more confident with my canopy skills, I switched over to AFF to learn more about freefall. It did wonders in comparison to my limited (and still limited) knowledge on my 5 second delays. Yes I was d*mn nieve those first few jumps thinking how I will be just fine with instructors jumping with me. My instructors made it real clear to me that they were only going to do so much, but when it came down to it I was jumping on my own and needed to be able to handle myself. It scared me at the time but it made me realize I needed to step up to the plate and quite depending on them.
By my 19th jump, I was having alot of fun, and also realized every single jump that emergency procedures may be just what I need to do if something bad happened. And it did. I pulled my ripcord (spring loaded pilot chute) at 5500, did a 5 count...then 6, 7, 8 (sh!!) and automatically started my cutaway and reserve procedures. Before I even got to the reserve the RSL activated. I was told later that I probably had a pilot chute hesitation (burble). By the time I looked at my altimeter I was at 3000 and under a good reserve canopy. While I'm sure I was told about that possibility before, all the training can be pretty overwhelming for a new student. I landed on a 250 reserve, but flared a little late, came in running, fell forward, and didn't PLF. I suffered a broken wrist (over 3 months ago) that I'm still waiting for it to heal. I learned three things on that jump...next time look behind to see if the chute is deploying, next time react faster, and when in doubt, PLF!!!!
I think we learned on jump number 3 (first static line jump), that if the canopy starts to spin, check for a lineover and check for a loose toggle.
We are all upset that people are asking us why the heck we are still skydiving (or in my case wanting to skydive). But at the end of the day, I remind myself that skydiving is very dangerous, and, while these people are a little uneducated about skydiving truths, ultimately, it is dangerous, it is your life up there, it is fun, but every jump always be prepared. And also explain to the people asking in more detail about what other facts you have to ask before automatically deciding, that parachute won't open. This is what the majority of people think. I tell them again and again, that the same thing could happen to me, I'm not experienced, but that I educate myself about packing, malfunctions, etc. so that when and if things happen I'll be as prepared as possible. But ultimately, if it aint' your day to make it, no matter how trained your are, it ain't your day. Live on! Be smart! Be educated! And jump!
As far as Shayna. Awesome that she wants to jump again. If I were her, I'd review all over again what all the possible malfunctions are and drill drill drill until she knows what to do in every situation. And also tell myself that no chute ever is guaranteed. All you can do is reduce the odds!
As far as the media coverage goes, I'd like to see alot more answers that delegate what really happened to the skydiving community, and alot more answers saying I don't skydive enough to know completely what really happened but I will learn before I jump again.
Everyone have a great day. Unexperienced jumper but dedicated to learning more, hope I didn't piss anyone off.
All in all, the posts above reminded me that when I jump again, I can also try balancing with the rear risers, for some reason that didn't click with my brain before (that I remember, last jump was 3 months ago) but I should definitely know that at 19 jumps. Lonne
I posted this at the Bonfire and thought I should post it here also after reading Liemberg's comment on her med bills. It should also be realized that jumpers with far more experiance have done far worst than she did and with a far worst outcome - death. We all should be extremely happy that the latter was not the outcome in this incident and focus on that as the sport has survived far worst exposure. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, she did get a break on her dental, but she is still left with aprx $450,000.00 in medical bills. She has no medical insurance, and even if she did, most likely it would not cover this accident. Most insurance companies will not cover accidents that result from participation in a dangerous sport.
And again, please let me reiterate, SHE DID NOT SEEK OUT THIS PRESS COVERAGE; THE PRESS SOUGHT OUT HER.
This is why I changed my feelings towards this. Her $450,000.00 is a far cry from the $60,000.00 I bankrupt. Once I realized exactly how I felt with mounting bills and no possiable way to pay it put me in Shaynas place. This poor girl is pregnant and in need of assistance and all we have done is berate her. I for one am ashamed that I let my passion for the sport over ride my compassion for another human in need. I hope that they can forgive me for not seeing the whole picture. If you have the ability to place yourself in her situation, do it and then look at what she faces in the future. Hopefully you will see it from her standpoint. I hope that she can garner some income from this and be at ease. I also hope that others can understand that they also can find themselves in such a situation and will most likely do what it takes to get on with living a fullfilling life minus the pain and aggravation of mounting debt. After all, skydiving ain't nothing but a thing. Shayna on the other hand is a person in time of need. Let's all have alittle compassion for her and Rick. I cannot imagine how he feels for what has happened. It must be terrible knowing that your descision nearly cost the life of someone you love. Leave them alone and just shut up and jump
(This post was edited by freethefly on Dec 14, 2005, 11:52 PM)
Do we know accurately what rig and what reserve were used ??
That's what I want to know. I seem to be the only person in the world at the moment who's concerned by the reports that she was possibly on a 126 reserve. A student on a 126! Am I the only one who's wondering how low her medicals bills would actually be if that was a 210 rather than a 126???