Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
student accident

 


jdthomas  (D License)

Nov 28, 2005, 7:45 PM
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student accident Can't Post

 Okay here is a thread from a Springfield Mo news station.
This accident happened just a short time ago and was heavly disscussed with the surrounding DZ's of that area for some time and was never posted here.
The event is now public knowledge and I feel fre to post it so that we all can learn form these mistakes.

The run down.
This jumper is dating her instructor. The AFF-I instructor has been on probation at a small DZ for non safe skydive instruction and is told that he can not teach his new girlfriend AFF at this DZ for this reason and the simple fact that there is a no staff student dating policy in place.
The instructor wants to put his girlfriend student out on a sabre-2 170 that is not sized for the container he wants to put it in.
He is told that this is not a good idea from riggers and experienced jumpers, so he takes his girlfriend to a diffrent DZ and makes the jump happen there.
During deployment the student has a toggle that is unstowed from possibly a bad pack job and not knowing what is going on she does a clean cutaway.
This where the things gets intresting.... her reserve is spinning and she later states she did not know why it was spinning.
The FAA did not find anything wrong with the gear and no real reason was ever come up with as to why her reserve did not fly correctly.

the people that jump at the DZ where the student and instructor are from have a messgae board and the people that jump at the dz where the accident happened also chat and view this board. We all have pondered this accident and have never really come up with a solid answer as to why this occured.
My thoughts came after I saw the actuall video of the jump and it looks like one toggle on her reserve was also undone and the student did nothing to fix the spin.
I hope that others will learn form this and make skydiving safer for all.
Sorry this is a long read.

Joe


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Nov 28, 2005, 9:09 PM
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Re: [jdthomas] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In reply to:
We all have pondered this accident and have never really come up with a solid answer as to why this occured.


And the intent for posting it here is what?
To add speculation? or remind instructors not to date students?

Edit to add: Was she dating him before she even made the skydive? If that was the case, she wasn't dating her instructor, but the guy she was dating happened to be an Instructor.



Be safe
Ed


(This post was edited by bodypilot1 on Nov 28, 2005, 10:06 PM)


skydiverjerry  (D 9092)

Nov 28, 2005, 9:39 PM
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Re: [jdthomas] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

you make a good point for instructors not dating the students. one i strongly agee with even though i am single [;)

did the student release the brakes on the reserve, how did you get the video?

if the facts are as stated ie the instructore was told not to teach his girlfriend yet still went ahead is there some form of disciplinary action pending?

this thread may belong in the instructors forum so that junior instructors can understand the importance of using the right gear, proffesional approach to instruction et.

we as instructors can not allow ourselves to be placed in a position were our relationships can cause us to become distracted from the task of teaching students and providing them with survival skills.

one point here though the instructor must have done something right if the student did her reserve drills correctly


Superman32  (B 28074)

Nov 28, 2005, 10:01 PM
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Re: [jdthomas] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Why was the FAA involved?
Was she hurt?

The instructor apparently has really bad judgement, because he was dating a student, on probation in one DZ but still working in another, and made bad gear choices.
Why is this posted here?

P.S. I hate opening new threads on Incidents Forum because it usually means a fatality. At least this isn't one of them.


noluckned  (C 1195)

Nov 29, 2005, 12:32 AM
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Putting a first jump student out on a 170 sabre?

Might bloody well be attempted murder.

Teaching your significant other to do anything is never a good idea. My wife dives and I am a SCUBA instructor, I learned the hard way not to "Instruct" my wife to do anything, now I use the subtle approach of getting another instructor to relay the message for me. Sad in a way, but diplomatic and effective.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Nov 29, 2005, 12:50 AM
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In reply to:
Putting a first jump student out on a 170 sabre?

Might bloody well be attempted murder.

Why? If a student is very small (and also very lightweight) and therefore in danger of falling out of regular (280/220) student rigs, a sabre 170 or 190 might not be a bad idea, IMO. Its been done here before. However a Sabre2 is more hp and wouldnt be allowed here.

Putting a 100 lbs girl in a one-size-fits-most rig can also be described as `attempted murder` since falling out of such a rig is easily possible.

That said, I have no clue about this particular girl, and I agree with the no-dating rule....


daniel_owen_uk  (Student)

Nov 29, 2005, 12:52 AM
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Who said it was first jump? He

The guy clearly has issues, but he hasn't done anything illegal.

He is an instructor that can jump at any dropzone, if they have a non student instructor dating policy, then he is well within his own rights to jump elsewhere.

His gear choice wasn't the best but only because the canopy wasn't correctly sized for the container. I will make no assumption about wingloading (although sabre2 probably not the most student friendly if I am honest).


jdthomas  (D License)

Nov 29, 2005, 5:29 AM
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Re: [bodypilot1] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

 The intent in posting is to help show that the chain of saftey was broken and red flags should have been obvious.
Thsi student, even though dating her instructor had questions on the saftey of this main in that container, thus the public disscussion prior to the jump.
If you have questions and you are nervous you should get thos questions answered by as many knowledgeable outside sources as possible.
And to answer the next question. No she was not dating him before she made her first skydive.. maybe they started dating on jump 2 of the ten she has made.. the first jump was a tandem and then he took over.

We are all still trying to figure out why her reserve had a hung slider and it was spinning.
FAA and other riggers could not see anything wrong with the gear.


stevebabin  (D 17200)

Nov 29, 2005, 8:07 AM
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Correction- Shaynas Main was a Sabre2 190, not a 170 as stated earlier.


Dougiefresh  (Student)

Nov 29, 2005, 8:22 AM
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Quote:
Putting a first jump student out on a 170 sabre?

Might bloody well be attempted murder.

I did my first afp jump on a sabre2 190. That silly sdc "progressive" canopy progression!

I agree with the rest of your post tho. Instructors dating students is a recipe for trouble.


pilotdave  (D License)

Nov 29, 2005, 8:32 AM
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My first jump was under a PD 170. Little slower than a Sabre would have been. But I was much more comfortable on that jump than 15 jumps later under a manta 288 at another DZ.

Dave


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Nov 29, 2005, 8:52 AM
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In reply to:
The intent in posting is to help show that the chain of saftey was broken and red flags should have been obvious.

Then unless this girl was hurt, this post should not be in the incident forum, but maybe the instructors or S/T forum?

Edit: Just noticed it has been moved. Wink


In reply to:
Thsi student, even though dating her instructor had questions on the saftey of this main in that container, thus the public disscussion prior to the jump.

IMO if the student had unanswered questions on the gear she was jumping, and voiced her concern to other jumpers about it, then maybe the DZM or DZO should have been involved before she was allowed to board the plane?
And if the other jumpers that suspected this girl is being put into unsafe gear, allow the her to jump that gear, without bringing someone with more experience into the situation, they are wrong too for not bringing it up. Mad

In reply to:
No she was not dating him before she made her first skydive.. maybe they started dating on jump 2 of the ten she has made.. the first jump was a tandem and then he took over.

That's a DZ issue and has nothing to do with other jumpers on the DZ.

In reply to:
We are all still trying to figure out why her reserve had a hung slider and it was spinning.
FAA and other riggers could not see anything wrong with the gear.

Reserves can malfuction too. Unsure



Be safe
Ed


(This post was edited by bodypilot1 on Nov 29, 2005, 9:32 AM)


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Nov 29, 2005, 12:11 PM
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In reply to:
The guy clearly has issues, but he hasn't done anything illegal.

unsafe instruction is rarely illegal. Good way to lose a girlfriend, though.

Not sure what can be learned from it, though. He knew what he was doing was wrong, and found a way to do it anyway. No learning going on there.


Spdoat

Nov 29, 2005, 12:43 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The intent in posting is to help show that the chain of saftey was broken and red flags should have been obvious.

Then unless this girl was hurt, this post should not be in the incident forum, but maybe the instructors or S/T forum?

Edit: Just noticed it has been moved. Wink


Be safe
Ed

She was hurt and has had to undergo many major surgeries to get her to the point she is at. Here is the link to the www.ky3.com TV station that aired it in Springfield, MO.

http://www.ky3.com/news/2005622.html Cut and paste it into your browser or just search skydive on www.ky3.com. I can't seem to make the link work on this forum.


(This post was edited by Spdoat on Nov 29, 2005, 12:44 PM)


rs2kmk5  (A 105627)

Nov 29, 2005, 1:35 PM
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Re: [Spdoat] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to send best wishes on healing to the woman involved in this accident - if you watch the video it sounds like the instructor is shouting pump the brakes pump the brakes...

Do we conclude then that one brake line was unstowed?

Or that she couldnt reach the toggles?

I'm sure having to cut away on jump 10 must be emotionally difficult but then you surely must carry out canopy control tests on your reserve???

Just my newbie opinion (someone hand me a flameproof jacket).

Hats off to her if she does get back up.

Get well soon


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 29, 2005, 1:35 PM
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Re: [Dougiefresh] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Putting a first jump student out on a 170 sabre?

Might bloody well be attempted murder.

I did my first afp jump on a sabre2 190. That silly sdc "progressive" canopy progression!

I agree with the rest of your post tho. Instructors dating students is a recipe for trouble.

Me (almost) too. Mine was a Sabre 190. Did 3 on that then went to a 170.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Nov 29, 2005, 1:46 PM
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Re: [rs2kmk5] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Clicky.

Quotes that make me wonder about the quality of her training ...

"Your reserve is supposed to be your guaranteed backup.

"Last thing on my mind right now would be any danger ..." as she's watching the video of her exit.

"Seconds before I hit, I just let go of my toggles..."

Other observations ... wondering whether she did a controllability check on the reserve. She did say she dropped the toggles, so she may have had them in her hands at one point.

A PLF apparently did not occur to her (granted, she appeared to be spinning pretty fast ... who knows if anything would have made a difference).


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Nov 29, 2005, 1:50 PM)


jdthomas  (D License)

Nov 29, 2005, 1:48 PM
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IMO if the student had unanswered questions on the gear she was jumping, and voiced her concern to other jumpers about it, then maybe the DZM or DZO should have been involved before she was allowed to board the plane?
And if the other jumpers that suspected this girl is being put into unsafe gear, allow the her to jump that gear, without bringing someone with more experience into the situation, they are wrong too for not bringing it up

This is a very good point. Other jumpers did bring up the saftey issue of this. stuffing a 190 into a container sized for a 135 was not a great idea and thus expressed by others.
One of the many reasons this instructor was told he could not jump that at his home DZ.
This reason as well as a few others is why they went to a diffrent DZ away from the home dz. The away DZ was a place that this instructor had made many jumps at in the past so he was welcome there.
As far as the DZO having suspect and stopping anyone at the DZ from jumping. I don't know all the in's and out's of the procedures for gear checks there but this one seemed to slip thru the cracks.
Joe


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Nov 29, 2005, 3:19 PM
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In reply to:
She was hurt and has had to undergo many major surgeries to get her to the point she is at. Here is the link to the www.ky3.com TV station that aired it in Springfield, MO.

Sadly it wasn't metioned it the original post. Unsure


Be safe
Ed


fallingfaster  (B 29136)

Nov 29, 2005, 7:54 PM
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Well looked like a slider up on the reserve, and it was spinning because a brake was out? Would it have been possible for her to pump and get it down or was it stuck?


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Nov 29, 2005, 9:01 PM
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In reply to:
As far as the DZO having suspect and stopping anyone at the DZ from jumping. I don't know all the in's and out's of the procedures for gear checks there but this one seemed to slip thru the cracks.

This was an odd situation.

This was a student jump that was conducted totally outside of our student program using a technique(AFF) we don't even offer, taught by a third party instructor. Even the rig was brought into our DZ by the AFF instructor and not one of our student rigs.

Manifest verified that the rig had an in-date reserve as well as an AAD and RSL(our standard check for a sport rig that's going to be used by someone on student status). Normally, if a student is jumping a sport rig, they check with their Instructor to make sure it's approriate. Since her Instructor brought the rig, it did not occur to me(or anyone else AFAIK) to check the canopy size.


-Blind


(This post was edited by BlindBrick on Nov 29, 2005, 9:26 PM)


noluckned  (C 1195)

Nov 30, 2005, 12:56 AM
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Ok Ok....I retract my "Attempted Murder" statement.
it was certainly uncalled for and ill-considered.

I still stand by my view that putting a low jump number student under a canopy like that is asking for trouble. The margin for error is just so much smaller than a big slow student rig.

Respect to the people who have posted here about doing their first jumps under small canopies, I am glad it all worked out ok for you.

However we see that in this case the choice was not the correct one. An unstowed brake on a 288 is nowhere near as traumatic as on a 190 Sabre. The very fact that she didnt get the damn thing unstowed and had to cut is an indication that she was being put in a situation she was not ready for yet. I have not seen the video, but I have doubts about her body position after cutting a spinning main and her unstable deployment of the reserve may also have factored in its malfunction. Yes... pure speculation, I know.

In short, for this jumper, the instructor/boyfriend clearly overestimated her ability to cope with a correctable situation and I take my hat off to her for following the EP's and wish her the best of luck on her road to recovery.


(This post was edited by noluckned on Nov 30, 2005, 1:08 AM)


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 5, 2005, 4:33 PM
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Just to clarify a bit more... The instructor was NOT on probation at his home dropzone, I don't know how this rumor got started. The only reason he took the student to the other dropzone was that they were going to let him jump her for slots. Basically he was trying to save her some money. Good intentions, poor implementation. She cut away a good main. It was spinning due to a dislodged toggle that was created from doing rear riser turns without first releasing the toggles. Part of her yellowcard. A matter of panic, nothing more. She experience a hung slider on her reserve for who knows what reason. She claims to have pumped the breaks several times all the way until the point at which she was going in and thought she was going to die. The canopy was spinning as if she had one toggle fully pulled down. The centrifigul force she was experiencing probably prohibited her from doing any kind of a PLF. Her face impacted the asphault at the same time as the canopy. This is apparently visible on the original video. It is hard to tell on the quicktime clip mentioned earlier. She was a small girl weighing in at about 110 pounds. She was put out on a Sabre2 190. The reserve was a 170. Many of these facts were left out of the original post, I'm not sure why. Like Joe stated earlier, we have been discussing this locally for some time so he was aware of these facts as well, or should have been. Many of us have opinions on the whole affair but the fact of the matter is, she is alive. She's had four surgery's on her face and is expected to make a full recovery. She is even talking about continuing her skydiving training once she is fully healed.


hexadecimal

Dec 8, 2005, 10:17 AM
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In reply to:
I did my first afp jump on a sabre2 190. That silly sdc "progressive" canopy progression!
Yea, damn them for actually teaching students how to use the gear they'll be using after they get off student status Laugh


jdthomas  (D License)

Dec 13, 2005, 6:28 AM
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 So sadly enough this story get's a little ugly.

The student that was hurt in this accident has been traveling to all the local news stations of south east kansas, south West Missouri and North East Arkansas with her story.

She leaves out so many of the facts that it would make you cringe!

Pregnant Skydiver Survives Plunge

.c The Associated Press

SILOAM SPRINGS, Ark. (AP) - Pregnant skydiver Shayna Richardson has survived a face-first plunge into the ground.

Richardson, 21, of Joplin, Mo., was making her first solo jump in Siloam Springs, Ark., on Oct. 9 when her main parachute failed and her reserve chute didn't fully deploy.

Richardson was falling at about 50 mph when she hit face first in a parking lot. Badly injured, but alive, Richardson spent 16 days in a hospital.

``I heard a snap and I started spinning and I didn't know why. I didn't know what to do to fix it. I didn't know how to make it stop,'' Richardson told Fort Smith, Ark., television station KFSM.

She cut away her primary chute so her reserve could deploy.

``It's called your guaranteed open. That's what everyone refers to it as,'' Richardson said.

But the reserve didn't open all the way.

``To have a malfunctioning reserve is one in a million. It just doesn't happen,'' Richardson said.

She spun out of control, heading straight for the asphalt of a parking lot below.

``At the end I said, 'I'm going to die. I'm going to hit the ground. I'm going to die,''' she said. ``I don't remember it. I don't remember hitting the ground. I don't remember the impact or anything that came with it.''

She landed face first.

``In the hit, I egg shelled my entire face. Everything got egg shelled. I broke my pelvis in two places and I broke my leg,'' Richardson said.

Rescuers got her to a hospital in Fayetteville where Richardson underwent surgery.

``I went into the first surgery where they cut me from ear to ear and they cut my face down and they took out all the fractured egg-shelled bones and put in steel plates,'' Richardson said.

During treatment, doctors found that Richardson was pregnant, which was a surprise to her.

She said she would not have jumped had she known she was pregnant.

``To hit the ground belly first - that's dangerous. I mean at any stage of pregnancy that's dangerous. That's not something you want to do let alone at 50 miles per hour,'' Richardson said.

Four surgeries and two months later, Richardson said she and her fetus are doing fine.

``Just this last week we went and saw the doctor and we've got arms, we've got legs. We've got a full face. The baby is moving around just fine. The heart rate looks good. So not only did God save me but he spared this baby,'' Richardson said.

Richardson has 15 steel plates in her face and lost six teeth. Her fall was videotaped and Richardson said she was able to watch it, without qualms.

``I wanted to watch it,'' said Richardson. ``And the whole reason I'm comfortable with watching it because I know how it ends.''

Richardson said her due date is June 25. She said she plans to make her next parachute jump in August.


The motovation behind these actions seem to be the all mighty dollar as has set us a bank account that viewers can donate to her medical expenses..

Here is her side of the story as per a private disscussion board from those listed area DZ's.

"Guys...I am not bothered by any questions...I hope people can and will learn from my accident. Yes...I did jump Sunny's main...and no I do not believe the size had anything to do with the accident. Before my jump Rick took my rig with that main on a hop and pop and the parachute deployed perfectly. After that we went up for my 10th jump and first AFF. The malfunction could probably have been fixed by a more experienced jumper. What happened exactly was this...we jumped from 10,000 ft, and I performed the dive perfectly. I deoplyed at 5500 and had a perfect canopy. With my breaks still stowed I attempted some reriser turns just for practice. During my turns I heard a heart stopping SNAP that sent me into an uncontrolable spin, so I cut it away. My first thought was that I had broken lines...but after landing it was determined that one of my breaks snap free, and was unstowed. Not recognizing the problem, and not really knowing what had caused the snap or spinning I thought it best to cutaway and go to the reserve. The reserve also deployed properly, but the slider did not come down, and it appeared to me that part of the canopy was stuffed throught he graument of the slider. This once again sent me into an uncontrolable spin. I flared the canopy several times, and did everything I was intructed to by my radio, and by Rick in the air. Nothing I attempted worked. I have jumped a 190 every jump before this at Freefall Express, and I weigh 125 lbs. This accident is simply that...an accident. Like I said...my lack of experience was my worst enemy...an experienced skydiver would have recognized the problem, and known how to fix it. I guess my #1 lesson from all of this is...don't be so quick to cutaway! Simply unstowing the other brake would have straightened me out, and allowed me a safe and fun skydive. However, I didn't know, and the only way to learn is to keep jumping. Rick says that students aren't taught to repair all simple malfunctions like that becuase they will spend too much time trying to fix it, and not ever cutaway. Given the fact that the reserve is supposed to be your "guaranteed open" I understand that way of thinking. In most cases it is probably safer to cutaway then to try to fix the main, but I happen to be the fluke that didn't get a good reserve. I will not blame anyone for anything...the only person I could possibly be upset with is myself...and trust me...I have torn myself up about cuting away so quickly, and not even trying to fix that main. After having my baby (which by the way is due June 25, 2006) I fully entend to return to skydiving. Rick received his static line rating the same day as the accident, and plans to return to jumping this comming weekend. I know my accident brought up many questions and concerns, and I hope that this answers most of it. Please rest assured that your questions do not offend me or discomfort me in anyway. I am happy to be alive, and I don't think there is anything wrong with educating people from my near fatal accident.

Back to the baby...
I saw my OB/GYN for the first time today and got our first baby pictures and got to see the heartbeat! It was very exciting, and even made me cry a little. I didn't realize how emotional this baby would make me. The doctor says that the baby is appearing healthy and normal so far, and that the pain medication I have been taking will not hurt the baby (thank God...because I hurt!!!). The doctor did say that I will probably have to have a c-section delivery because of the pelvis fractures. I kind of thought that might be the case, and at this point I know I can handle either way...lol. My mouth is still wired shut, and will be for 5 more weeks!!! I am very tired of eating through a straw!!! I am scared to death that morming sickness might kick in before my mouth gets unwired. If I do start getting sick we have to try to cut the wires loose...and that doesn't sound like something I want to do when I am in the process of vomiting...lol. The joys of combining injury and pregnancy...lol. I am still very happy like I said simply to be alive. The pain sometimes makes me question that happiness, but then I see my baby pictures, and I am happy again. Well...I just reread my post and realized I am rambling...so I am going to go now. I hope all this information means something to somebody...lol...oh...and my address for any letters "

Joe


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 13, 2005, 7:42 AM
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Quote:
The student that was hurt in this accident has been traveling to all the local news stations of south east kansas, south West Missouri and North East Arkansas with her story.

Add Utah to your list: http://kutv.com/...story_346193211.html

Dave


jdthomas  (D License)

Dec 13, 2005, 8:28 AM
Post #27 of 216 (4373 views)
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CNN has contacted the Dz this accident happend at.


Spdoat

Dec 13, 2005, 9:02 AM
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This whole event being taken to the media and then not being accurate in accounting ALL events is rediculous and sad to me. I hear that the UK has been contacted as well. Unsure


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 13, 2005, 9:05 AM
Post #29 of 216 (4318 views)
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Re: [noluckned] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>I still stand by my view that putting a low jump number
>student under a canopy like that is asking for trouble.

We had a Triathalon 190 we used for smaller students. It was ideal because:

1) It fit in a smaller rig that did not almost fall off them in freefall

2) It allowed them to make it back to the DZ even if their canopy control was not perfect

3) It allowed the greater-than-.5 loading that PD recommends as a safe minimum loading.


jdthomas  (D License)

Dec 13, 2005, 9:11 AM
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 Shayna's sabre-2 190 was stuffed into a container sized for a 135! and she did not have the skill to fly anything in that performance range.
the triathalon 190 may have well been a better canopy for her then the sabre-2.
Joe


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Dec 13, 2005, 9:31 AM
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Ok, now I'm pissed.

I don't need my mother sending me tearful emails about this shit.

People, if you are going to be stupid, try to keep it to yourself.


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 13, 2005, 9:32 AM
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Re: [jdthomas] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Shayna had several uneventful jumps on our Triathalon 190. It was a better canopy choice for her. I believe the Sabre-2 was probably too much for her. She should have just stayed at FFE and continued her student trainging. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.


ntrprnr  (B 28397)

Dec 13, 2005, 9:45 AM
Post #33 of 216 (4252 views)
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Re: [jdfreefly] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Could not F'ing agree MORE. I just had a 40 minute discussion with mom and dad. Explained a bunch of stuff that they simply did NOT need to know, but need to know now because someone felt the need to media-whore themselves out.

REALLY infuriating. It's bad enough our sport gets slammed by the media who doesn't know better. We don't need people IN THE SPORT doing it, as well.


In reply to:
Ok, now I'm pissed.

I don't need my mother sending me tearful emails about this shit.

People, if you are going to be stupid, try to keep it to yourself.


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Dec 13, 2005, 10:29 AM
Post #34 of 216 (4191 views)
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In reply to:
Ok, now I'm pissed.

I don't need my mother sending me tearful emails about this shit.

People, if you are going to be stupid, try to keep it to yourself.

Could be worse. I've got a custody hearing in a weekand I'm fairly sure that this got the attention of my kids' mother and that the dangers of skydiivng used as a reason why I shouldn't have custody.

-Blind


antonsteyn

Dec 13, 2005, 12:00 PM
Post #35 of 216 (4117 views)
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Re: [BlindBrick] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

And I quote from her own email posted before:

"Rick says that students aren't taught to repair all simple malfunctions like that becuase they will spend too much time trying to fix it, and not ever cutaway. "
Where is it standard practice to NOT teach students how to deal with a toggle that becomes unstowed? That is bloody ridiculous.
I used to be a static line instructor, and I ALWAYS taught that, and showed students how to deal with it in the hanging harness. If they could not deal with a simulated spin in the harness, or any other situation....NO JUMP. That was the rule from our CI.
Every other static line instructor I know teaches that. I instructed my girlfriend on her first jump, and I jumpmastered her, and I did many instructional FS jumps with her. I don't have a problem with that. (Clearly you might say Wink)

This is a stupid and unnecessary 'accident' that happened because people seem to have operated without regard for due safety. I feel sorry for this girl because she has received sub-standard instruction and guidance, and now she has to live with the pain.

This girl simply had no clue what was going on, and no idea on how to even begin to fix the situation. That shows poor instruction. After 9 previous jumps, she could still not check her toggles? She could still not figure out that a spin may very well be induced by a unstowed toggle?
She was never instructed properly. It's that simple...and that makes me angry. It is not her fault. Her instructor is totally at fault here because he clearly did not do even a half-decent job.

If this post seems inflammatory...that's exactly how I want it to be. I do not post often, but I get really mad when people get hurt for stupid reasons, and I get really mad when the sport gets a bad rap because of it.

Merry Christmas everybody.


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Dec 13, 2005, 12:06 PM
Post #36 of 216 (4097 views)
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You should argue that that is a good reason to give you custody. You may not be around too long, and your kids should get as much quality time with you as possible.

They can spend all the time with their mother after you lose your life due the dodgy equipment we all jump.


Smeger  (Student)

Dec 13, 2005, 12:37 PM
Post #37 of 216 (4077 views)
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student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I plan to do the AFF course next year (UK). Every time I hear of an accident I read as much as I can to try to understand exactly what went wrong and what could have been done to prevent it. Please forgive my stupidity when I ask the following question(s).Unsure

What is an unstowed toggle? Does it mean she didn't reach up and grab it?

Also, is flaring with both toggles the only way to pull down a slider thats stuck?

Anyone tell me what the "snap" sound was she described when using the risers?


antonsteyn

Dec 13, 2005, 1:07 PM
Post #38 of 216 (4039 views)
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In reply to:
I plan to do the AFF course next year (UK). Every time I hear of an accident I read as much as I can to try to understand exactly what went wrong and what could have been done to prevent it. Please forgive my stupidity when I ask the following question(s).Unsure

What is an unstowed toggle? Does it mean she didn't reach up and grab it?

Also, is flaring with both toggles the only way to pull down a slider thats stuck?

Anyone tell me what the "snap" sound was she described when using the risers?

There are no stupid questions....only stupid answers....here's mine Tongue
Take into consideration that there are many variables and many different factors that could effect the severity and speed with which any malfunction or abnormality happens. These will naturally dictate how one should best react for that specific instance.

These are my opinions only:
An unstowed toggle is NOT a malfunction, but rather an abnormality. An abnormality, if not corrected in good time, can lead to a malfunction.

An unstowed toggle is simply a toggle/brake that has come unstowed from the way it was packed. All that is required is a reach up and grab of the toggle, and to take hold of and release the other toggle at the same time. Depending on the wingloading and canopy type, a spin can be induced either very fast, or gently at first, picking up speed the longer the situation is left unchecked.

Flaring with both toggles is about as much as one can do to help bring down a slider. If it still does not come down all the way, I recommend a canopy control check to determine whether the canopy can be controlled and landed safely. If it can NOT be controlled safely and properly, then get rid of it...IF you have enough altitude to safely execute your reserve drills.

I can only hazard a guess as to the 'snap' sound. Highly likely it was a mind snap, but could also be a fast velcro release, or the sound of the toggle coming unstowed and stopping against the ring. Could also be a slider coming down, a canopy opening nearby....or...or...or..... you get the idea? It could have been any one of a dozen things.
She stated that she thought it was her lines breaking? Best way to confirm that would be to take a look no? THEN decide.
This whole incident is such a pity, because a premature toggle release, in most instances, is such a minor thing, and can usually be remedied quite easily.


Smeger  (Student)

Dec 13, 2005, 1:19 PM
Post #39 of 216 (4021 views)
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Thank you for the quick response. Thats helped me understand the situation a lot more.

I'm sure when I do my AFF I will receive all the instructions I need to avoid or correct a similar malfunction.

Watching the video sent a nasty shiver down my spin. Crazy


Dolph  (D License)

Dec 13, 2005, 1:41 PM
Post #40 of 216 (3993 views)
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Re: [jdthomas] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

The question is: what can be done in such a situation to minimize the descent rate?

Looks like a stuck slider in an asymmetric position that induces a hard turn. if it had been on a main, it'd be a quick "oh shit" and CA-CLING, cutaway. But it was on a reserve. Of course in a chain-of-events like this, it could have been prevented, but let's take the actual situation after the cutaway.

Pumping toggles might help but the jumper stated that she did this and it looked like some fabric from the canopy was stuck in a slider grommet. If this was on one side it'd explain the rather quick turns.

Basically, you're in deep trouble if this sort of thing happens. On a sub 100 sgft reserve, it gets a lot worse.

My immediate reaction when I saw the video was "go for toggles. See if it helps. If it doesn't, yank risers, different combinations til something is found that at least slows the descent.".

What else can be done? Any good ideas?


(This post was edited by Dolph on Dec 13, 2005, 1:42 PM)


JeepDiver  (D License)

Dec 13, 2005, 2:36 PM
Post #41 of 216 (3920 views)
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Re: [Dolph] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I read from three different threads (I think so far Unsure)

It was a 190 main (sabre2) in a container sized for a 135 main.

Does anyone know the size of the reserve she attempted to fly considering the main was chopped?


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Dec 13, 2005, 3:09 PM
Post #42 of 216 (3867 views)
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In reply to:
This girl simply had no clue what was going on, and no idea on how to even begin to fix the situation. That shows poor instruction. After 9 previous jumps, she could still not check her toggles? She could still not figure out that a spin may very well be induced by a unstowed toggle?
She was never instructed properly. It's that simple...and that makes me angry. It is not her fault. Her instructor is totally at fault here because he clearly did not do even a half-decent job.

The first time I had a fired toggle was in the 50s or 60s on jump count. Got smacked in the mouth by a riser (which probably fired it), disorienting me slightly, and next I know I'm in a wild spiral, even with my gigantic tri 220 it was surprising how powerful it was. I instinctively grabbed the opposite rear to counteract it and when that worked, I was able to look up and see only one toggle attached.

But at that point, I understood why others I knew had cutaway from this 'anomoly.' It was so different from past opening experiences.


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 13, 2005, 3:36 PM
Post #43 of 216 (3851 views)
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Re: [jdthomas] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I saw it on the 10 pm news last night here in Louisiana. My first thought was why didn't she use input on the opposite riser to stop the fucking spin. Who cares about the slider on her reserve being up, If she had only tried to stop the spin she might have made a better landing. I always teach my students to stop the spin before they start to lose blood to the brain. Has this occurred to anyone else who watched the video. The fact that her rig had a main that was to big for the container, or weather she was dating her Instructor is of no importance. The main goal IMO is for students to understand to immedietely grab risers and use opposite input to stop the spin. You have to get a stable canopy over head if you want to trouble shoot the problem and possibly walk away. I also heard on the news she (landed) spun into an asphalt parking lot. If she could have got that reserve flying strait, who cares if she had nothing to flare with, or the fact that her slider was up.She could have hit in the grass, and PLF ed and ended up with less distortion of her face.

anyway sorry about the rant, it is only my 2 cents.
Big nelli out.


hexadecimal

Dec 13, 2005, 3:47 PM
Post #44 of 216 (3835 views)
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Re: student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Who the hell calls a reserve a "guaranteed open"?

Crazy


More like a "last chance".


JeepDiver  (D License)

Dec 13, 2005, 4:34 PM
Post #45 of 216 (3800 views)
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Re: [NelKel] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The fact that her rig had a main that was to big for the container / is of no importance


You right, keep in mind the main was chopped so what she was flying was a highly loaded canopy as a student. My point is, was the reserve 129 or so sq ft reserve? What a way to experience her level 1 AFF student jump.


(This post was edited by JeepDiver on Dec 13, 2005, 4:34 PM)


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Dec 13, 2005, 4:41 PM
Post #46 of 216 (3790 views)
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In reply to:
Pumping toggles might help but the jumper stated that she did this and it looked like some fabric from the canopy was stuck in a slider grommet.

I was part of the team that did the on-site investigation. We found no damage to the slider or canopy that would indicate that the canopy fabric had got sucked into the grommet.

-Blind


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 13, 2005, 4:43 PM
Post #47 of 216 (3788 views)
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Re: [JeepDiver] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

OMG it's on Fox News with Sheppard Smith, and it's on CNN with Wolf Blitzer, and she was on a live interview with CNN. She has a trust fund set up now, where people can donate to her and her baby.


(This post was edited by NelKel on Dec 13, 2005, 4:45 PM)


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 13, 2005, 4:50 PM
Post #48 of 216 (3780 views)
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Re: [BlindBrick] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I am by no way an expert after watching the video on every channel, but it is apparent to me she had a tension knott, trapping the slider up. Turn on your TV and you will probably get a chance to see it again tonight. I didn't see fabric trapped but the position of the slider up the lines, the distortion of the left side of the canopy, and the way it was turning you can obvously tell the slider was hung up and all I can figure out is a tension knot.


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Dec 13, 2005, 5:00 PM
Post #49 of 216 (3763 views)
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Re: [NelKel] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I didn't see fabric trapped but the position of the slider up the lines, the distortion of the left side of the canopy, and the way it was turning you can obvously tell the slider was hung up and all I can figure out is a tension knot.

There was not knot on the ground; however, I did find a kink set into one of the upper control lines on that side. Some have suggested that it was simply the results of folding the canopy and not the results of a knot. I tend to disagree with that theory because I would have expected to find simlar kinks in the other lines if it had been the result of folding.

A number of riggers more experienced than me have said that even if a tension knot did occur it couldn't have hung the slider. It was also pointed out that if you watch the video, the right side of her canopy is not inflated either and that would have been totally independent of the tension knot on the left side.

It is worth pointing out that we got lucky in the FAA investigation and drew a master rigger as lead investigator. He ruled it an incident but listed cause as undetermined and assigned no fault. And in case someone ask again, I never saw the final report. I got this directly from the investigator who's based out of the Little Rock, AR FSDO. I don't recall his name but if you call and ask for the guy who handled the parachute accidnet in Oct., the'll connect you.

-Blind


(This post was edited by BlindBrick on Dec 13, 2005, 5:01 PM)


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 13, 2005, 5:09 PM
Post #50 of 216 (3745 views)
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Re: [BlindBrick] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

MY bad I meant right, not left. I didn't, but you did get to see the gear, so I believe your first hand account. Apparently there was not a tension knot and I retract my eiarlier statment that there was, and appoligise and hope I wasen't misleading to anyone.

Big Nelli out


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 13, 2005, 5:28 PM
Post #51 of 216 (2595 views)
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Re: [NelKel] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm almost positive that the reserve was something like a Tempo 170, not 100% mind you but if I find out differently I'll post it.

Anyhow, they were just getting on a plane at 6p headed for New York. You'll evidentaly be able to see them in the morning on "Good Morning America" and possibly the "Today" show. There is also an Oprah interview being set up at some point. I've expressed to them the uproar that has been seen in the skydiving community and they were unaware that they were doing harm to the sport. Shayna has insisted that all the interviews try and spin the situation in a positive light and has finished each one by saying that she intends to skydive again after the baby is born. I expressed that no matter how you spin it, it still makes people scared of skydiving and that is a black eye on us and that the interviews were probably not a good idea. They are upset now that they have created a snowball effect blacking the eyes of skydivers everywhere and will try and help rectify what has already been said.

I personally don't agree with all the decisions that have been made thus far, I'm just passing on what I know... anyway thought that the skydiving community would like an update... I'll be tuning in, in the morning to see if the interviews change at all. Peace.


Spdoat

Dec 13, 2005, 6:09 PM
Post #52 of 216 (2569 views)
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Re: [Superfletch] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm almost positive that the reserve was something like a Tempo 170, not 100% mind you but if I find out differently I'll post it.

I jumped that container for my last few student jumps and I recalled it being a smaller reserve. It is just my recollection but I thought it was a PD126 to match the 135 main I jumped in that container. It was back in Feburary so my facts could be off but I really believe it was much smaller.


skycop806  (B 27652)

Dec 13, 2005, 6:30 PM
Post #53 of 216 (2551 views)
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Re: [Spdoat] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, now granted, I'm no expert by any means...but I've watched this thread go on and on at our local internet website...

It was apparent that she had a problem with one of her toggles to begin with...which could have been easily corrected. So, she chopped it...

Looks like to me that it's the exact same scenario...on brake un-released? Or a toggle that was let go of?

It all comes down to the training IMHO. It just wasnt there. I know the instructor..and others involved..I jumped with this instructor..but I NEVER heard, nor understood, my reserve to be a GUARENTEE! There are no GUARENTEES in life...

It just saddens me that instead of asking INSIDE the skydiving community, those involved have taken this OUTSIDE the skydiving community..with potentially damaging results.


MB38  (A 48618)

Dec 13, 2005, 6:54 PM
Post #54 of 216 (2536 views)
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Re: [skycop806] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I wish there was a higher [full] resolution video available, to see if we can't get a better look at the lines during the spin. I'm sure that it's been analyzed over and over again by those with access to it, of course. If anybody has a Tivo...

Forgive me if this has been posted, but I didn't see it: What was the status of the reserve brakes after impact?


Andre1  (Student)

Dec 13, 2005, 8:57 PM
Post #55 of 216 (2471 views)
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Re: [NelKel] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I would like to ask a stupid newbie review question. In this situation if the reserve was spinning wildly release both brakes and flare. If this does not fix the problem counter the turn with the rear riser and attempt to fly the parachute straight using the rear risers only. If you have the rear risers in an uneven position should you flare on landing or should you just fly straight and do a great PLF?

Yes, I will run this by my instructors. I am asking because the wind, weather, a presidential visit to my city (created a flight restriction) and available dropzones are making jumping a challenge this time of the year.


karenmeal  (D 24737)

Dec 13, 2005, 11:36 PM
Post #56 of 216 (2424 views)
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I have been following this thread for a couple days..

And I have to say that it seem that everyone is quick to jump on the student for being an idiot, and the instructor for doing a poor job. I really have no clue which one it is, or if it's both, or neither..

I just have to note that in my time in the sport I have seen students make a number of bad decisions that can't be marked up to poor instruction. Cutting away because the slider wouldn't go back up, mistaking a snivel for a mutiple line-over, cutting away and pulling their reserve because their instructor continued to fall after they deployed, not cutting away when they should have, grabbing the pilot chute when it went in front of their face and holding on to it... the list is really endless.

Some people receive the best training in the world, but when it comes down to making a decision under pressure, they respond poorly. You can't necessarily pick out these people on the ground either.. some of them seem very intelligent and competent.

As far as the student knowing to correct the turn with a riser.. Out of all the things in the first jump class... is this really something that is stressed during training? If this was possibly her first time handling her rear risers, do you think maybe she a bit nervous or scared of what would happen? I know when I was a student, when trying rear riser turns for the first time, if I had popped a brake and not realized it, it may have made me panic. We give someone a first jump course, saturate their head with information, place them in a stressful environment and then expect them to remember every little detail? Hopefully they do, but a number of times they don't.

It's one of the reasons students are equipped with things like RSL's, AAD's, SOS systems, spring loaded pilot chutes, extra large parachutes...

We can try to make things very, very safe. But no matter what, nothing will be fool-proof.

As far as the criticism or her making a bad decision to cut-away and not fix the problem, I'm sure there are plenty of experienced jumpers on this site (maybe reading this thread and not posting) who have done this. Plenty of people also cut away a perfectly good (or easily fixed) main canopy while still a student and grow up to become perfectly good skydivers. In fact, I'm friends with several of these people. I never marked them off as hopeless, just tried to be understanding of their errors and then teased them when appropriate.

There probably are some things to learn from this incident, but I think the focus has turned into bashing this woman, and not learning about what one can do better as a student or as an instructor.

We all probably wish that she would not speak to the media so much.. but not many people at 10 (or was it 1?) jumps are really a part of our community yet and may not understand how/why things like that are frowned upon.

My two-cents..

-Karen


Elisha  (D 31656)

Dec 13, 2005, 11:43 PM
Post #57 of 216 (2422 views)
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In reply to:
It is worth pointing out that we got lucky in the FAA investigation and drew a master rigger as lead investigator. He ruled it an incident but listed cause as undetermined and assigned no fault. And in case someone ask again, I never saw the final report. I got this directly from the investigator who's based out of the Little Rock, AR FSDO. I don't recall his name but if you call and ask for the guy who handled the parachute accidnet in Oct., the'll connect you.

Is his report what will be reported in Parachutist?


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 14, 2005, 12:36 AM
Post #58 of 216 (2408 views)
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Thank You. Thank You. Thank You.

I have been saying this from day one... It was a horrible accident, one that probably could have been avoided. But it was an accident none the less. Poor choices were made by the student and instructor alike. But I don't think any of the poor decisions were enough to totally write off either one. Both of these people are my friends. I have expressed my opinions to both of them, without sugar coating. I have informed them of what I thought they did wrong.

The instructor probably should have not put her on a Sabre2 canopy. However, it has been done with students in the past and things have turned out ok. He is aware of this now. Ultimately the student should not have cut away a good canopy. She is aware of this now. Both of these individuals have learned from their mistakes.

She did not go to the press to place a black eye on the sport of skydiving and was shocked to think that many of us feel that she has done just that. Naive, yes but criminal no. She is faced with some large medical bills at the moment and was given the opportunity to cash in a bit to help with those bills. No one will be getting rich from the end result, you can bet on that. She thought that by telling the press she wanted to put a positive spin on the story would be enough. Again, naive but not malicious.

Anyhow, it just upsets me to see everyone so down on both of them when they don't know all the facts. I know most of the facts and have been watching this whole thing unfold since day one. DAY ONE! As I stated, I believe this situation could have been avoided but it happened and the best we can do is to not duplicate it. All the negative posts don't help any of it.

It boils down to the fact that Shayna found herself in a less than desirable predicament. She made a wrong decision of chopping a good canopy without first trying to fix it. A case of panic nothing more. Then when her reserve didn't open properly... honestly who could have ever expected that, she did the right things and they didn't work. A case of a little too late. It's my opinion that she had the proper training and just brain farted it. When her training finally kicked in, it just simply didn't work. It was an unfortunate accident.


packerkevin  (D 27873)

Dec 14, 2005, 2:57 AM
Post #59 of 216 (2387 views)
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Re: [Spdoat] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

"I jumped that container for my *last few student jumps *and I recalled it being a smaller reserve. It is just my recollection but I thought it was a *PD126 to match the 135* main I jumped in that container. "

Did I read that right???????????? BTW, the video has made it out here to arizona.. nothing like spending my day telling people that 1) it was not me 2) i dont know what happened


jdthomas  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 5:14 AM
Post #60 of 216 (2321 views)
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http://www.skydiveradio.com/pics.htm

Shayna on one of many tandems! this one happens to be with her boyfriend/instructor.

I think it's the fourth pic down!


Spdoat

Dec 14, 2005, 5:14 AM
Post #61 of 216 (2323 views)
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Re: [packerkevin] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me clarify. She was not jumping a 135. It was a Sabre2 190. I jumped a 135 in that container months ago, not Shayna. Also this was not in AZ, it was Siloam Springs as all the news casters have stated. I was just stating that I don't think it was such a large reserve and my past experiences.


(This post was edited by Spdoat on Dec 14, 2005, 5:15 AM)


ngawang01  (A 52302)

Dec 14, 2005, 6:26 AM
Post #62 of 216 (2281 views)
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Re: [antonsteyn] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

You are right. I got my AFF here in Fla. My instructors spent a great deal of time teaching me how to deal with malfunctions. We expend SOOO much time on the hanging hardness practicing how to deal with all kind of malfunctions. I got tossed, spun, shake around and evaluated on my reactions to a possible mal way before I got to my 1st, 2nd, ...jump. EP was a great deal on my AFF training. At the time it though to me that they were over doing it, but now I realize how important it is.


RossDagley  (C 950932)

Dec 14, 2005, 7:01 AM
Post #63 of 216 (2248 views)
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Re: [Spdoat] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Let me clarify. She was not jumping a 135. It was a Sabre2 190. I jumped a 135 in that container months ago, not Shayna. Also this was not in AZ, it was Siloam Springs as all the news casters have stated. I was just stating that I don't think it was such a large reserve and my past experiences.
I think packerkevin's concern was the size of your main/reserve on student status whe YOU jumped that rig (according to how your earlier statement reads).


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Dec 14, 2005, 7:38 AM
Post #64 of 216 (2217 views)
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Re: [RossDagley] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

On the contrary - I think his concern was the fact that it had a 126 RESERVE in there!!!

(possibly... although it would be a rather unusual container if it had a main pack tray sized for a 135 and a tempo 170 in the reserve).

If putting a student out on a SabreII 190 is marginally dumb you really have to wonder about the logic of letting a student jump with a 126 reserve.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 8:18 AM
Post #65 of 216 (2186 views)
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Re: student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

This is just unbelievable. Thanks to CNN & the AP wire service, not only has it hit every single newspaper and local and national news broadcast in the US, it's now gone international. (Here's the BBC's link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4527754.stm).

For the life of me, I cannot understand what makes her "no shit there I was" story any more worthy of worldwide news coverage than any other skydiver's bonfire story.

3 million skydives worldwide annually, maybe 2 or 3 of them resulting in a reserve mal after a cutaway, and one of them has to happen to her. Someone should tell her it's ok to take the Scarlet "A" off her chest now...


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Dec 14, 2005, 8:25 AM
Post #66 of 216 (2175 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess at least the three linked stories from that one are good:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/...ordshire/4297286.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/...ordshire/4182244.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/...uth_west/4671255.stm


goose491  (A 7123)

Dec 14, 2005, 8:27 AM
Post #67 of 216 (2173 views)
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In reply to:
For the life of me, I cannot understand what makes her "no shit there I was" story any more worthy of worldwide news coverage than any other skydiver's bonfire story.


Dude, yes you can. It's simply because she found herself pregnant during her stay at the hospital. That's sensational and it makes for a good 'story'.

Your BBC link Clicky


(This post was edited by goose491 on Dec 14, 2005, 8:30 AM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 8:40 AM
Post #68 of 216 (2158 views)
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In reply to:
It's simply because she found herself pregnant during her stay at the hospital. That's sensational and it makes for a good 'story'.

You're right. I do understand:

"Faustus begins to waver in his conviction to sell his soul. The good and evil angels make another appearance, with the good one again urging Faustus to think of heaven, but the evil angel convinces him that the wealth he can gain through his deal with the devil is worth the cost."

From Commentary on "Dr. Faustus" by Christopher Marlowe


goose491  (A 7123)

Dec 14, 2005, 8:49 AM
Post #69 of 216 (2142 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Go forward Faustus in that famous art,
Wherein all natures treasury is containd:
Be thou on earth as Ioue is in the skie,
Lord and commaunder of these Elements.


-Christopher Marlowe, The Tragicall History of D. Faustus


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 14, 2005, 9:06 AM
Post #70 of 216 (2114 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>I cannot understand what makes her "no shit there I was" story any
> more worthy of worldwide news coverage than any other skydiver's
> bonfire story.

It's the classic "hope springs from tragedy" story. Plucky chick faces death, survives, discovers to her joy that she is pregnant - and still has the courage to skydive again one day. Much more interesting to the average reader than Joe Extreme breaking his back doing something extreme.


JeepDiver  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 9:07 AM
Post #71 of 216 (2129 views)
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Quote:
Dude, yes you can. It's simply because she found herself pregnant during her stay at the hospital. That's sensational and it makes for a good 'story'.

So, ummm, who is the baby's father? Crazy


JohnnyD

Dec 14, 2005, 9:08 AM
Post #72 of 216 (2126 views)
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In reply to:
For the life of me, I cannot understand what makes her "no shit there I was" story any more worthy of worldwide news coverage than any other skydiver's bonfire story
Easy -
She was pretty, blonde, and female. There is video which captures the whole thing, complete with the boyfriend screaming. She was pregnant. She is now obviously messed up (facial deformity and no teeth).
- Take away any of these pieces and there isn't much of a story.
I think if this was an ugly fat guy, it would be relegated to its 20 seconds of fame on Real TV.


goose491  (A 7123)

Dec 14, 2005, 9:17 AM
Post #73 of 216 (2109 views)
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In reply to:
I think if this was an ugly fat guy, it would be relegated to its 20 seconds of fame on Real TV.


Are you kidding!!??! "Ugly Fat guy finds himself pregnant after skydiving accident." Would be a HUGE (pun intended) story.

TongueLaughLaugh

Cool


heftee  (D 27090)

Dec 14, 2005, 9:37 AM
Post #74 of 216 (2086 views)
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Quote:
will try and help rectify what has already been said.
Quote:
I'll be tuning in, in the morning to see if the interviews change at all.

After watching her on Good Morning America - I don't believe she did any better on this interview - she didn't make anything clearer (or more accurate/true) or do anything to un do what damage she's done.
Of course the media doesn't make it any easier by asking "was there anything you could have done to stop the turn" or "what should you have done differently". They're not going to do that, but she could have interjected some of that information if she wanted to. Doesn't seem like she wants to.
I can understand needing $$ for medical bills, but not at the expense of the sport.


gaelee  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 9:44 AM
Post #75 of 216 (2076 views)
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It's on the local Boston news now [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I am working from my home office today and caught the local news over lunch. Guess what I saw for about the 50th time now? Skydiver survives 10,000' plunge after her main and reserve parachutes malfunction. I live just north of Boston--this was the local news.

Having seen this tape a few times now, looks like the slider got hung up. Man, I think I'd be banging on everything to get it down, even as a student. But then, I spent a lot of time in a hanging harness and was never trained to believe in a 'guaranteed open.' What's THAT about?


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Dec 14, 2005, 9:51 AM
Post #76 of 216 (2016 views)
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Cool! It seems to be taken by the media.

I was told It was among the 8'o'clock news of a Hungarian TV channel ( not in the gossip news).


jumpergirl  (D 22691)

Dec 14, 2005, 9:57 AM
Post #77 of 216 (2009 views)
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I just posted this in the Bonfire thread as well.

I had seen the video online before these posts got so big and before I was hearing it all over the place. Just today, I heard the local morning show talk about it. I cringed but listened anyway.

Then, I stopped at the gas station for a drink and heard 2 men telling the cashier about it. "Her main parachute didn't open so she cut it away and went to her reserve. Then that one didn't open either and she landed on her face on the concrete. Now they found out she was pregnant when she jumped." I turned to the guy and asked, "Are you a jumper?" He said, "Well, no." I said, "Well, I am, and some of the facts they are reporting a wrong." He said, "You know, I don't care what they say, I still want to go jump but I don't want to waste all of that money on the training and stuff. It can't be that hard and I'm not scared at all." I looked at him for a second and said, "Yeah, you do that" and walked out. Unsure

THEN, the DJ on the radio station I'm listening to at work just mentioned it - with the wrong information again.

I don't blame these people for simply repeating what they have heard on the news. Afterall, the news is true, right? MadCrazyUnsure

So what can I do locally? Can I point them to these threads, or will that just make it worse? What do I tell the bozos I cross daily when they start talking shit about it? Unsure


JeepDiver  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 10:04 AM
Post #78 of 216 (1994 views)
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Quote:
What do I tell the bozos I cross daily when they start talking shit about it? Unsure

One of the things that I find most annoying is the BS I've had to deal with at work today. I've been told I'm a jackass for about the 10th time today.... being called a prick I'm used to but not a jackass.


jumpergirl  (D 22691)

Dec 14, 2005, 10:07 AM
Post #79 of 216 (1989 views)
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Re: [JeepDiver] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

My boss hasn't said anything about it, but I'm waiting. Crazy


Elisha  (D 31656)

Dec 14, 2005, 10:27 AM
Post #80 of 216 (1963 views)
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In reply to:
My boss hasn't said anything about it, but I'm waiting. Crazy

Me neither...

When I first heard someone at work mention this incident, I gave an example in front of the two people of:

What if they were at a party, had 2 drinks, were still good to drive, but drove a sports car home that was above their skill level on a windy rode and got in an accident. Then, the media just reported an accident and that alchohol may have played a role...failing to mention of course the car and driver experience and possible mechanical issues the car may have had.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 14, 2005, 10:28 AM
Post #81 of 216 (1969 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I think if this was an ugly fat guy, it would be relegated to its 20 seconds of fame on Real TV.


Are you kidding!!??! "Ugly Fat guy finds himself pregnant after skydiving accident." Would be a HUGE (pun intended) story.

TongueLaughLaugh

Cool

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

... front page on the National Enquirer!


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Dec 14, 2005, 10:29 AM
Post #82 of 216 (1966 views)
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In reply to:
THEN, the DJ on the radio station I'm listening to at work just mentioned it - with the wrong information again.

I don't blame these people for simply repeating what they have heard on the news. Afterall, the news is true, right? MadCrazyUnsure

It's going to true after some repetition. Pirate

Like any crapy music can be on the Pop Top 10 if it is played enough on the radio......Unsure


adobelover  (C License)

Dec 14, 2005, 10:30 AM
Post #83 of 216 (1966 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
Dude, yes you can. It's simply because she found herself pregnant during her stay at the hospital. That's sensational and it makes for a good 'story'.

So, ummm, who is the baby's father? Crazy

Her boyfriend instructor and he shot the video!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 14, 2005, 10:32 AM
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Re: [skycop806] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

It all comes down to the training IMHO. It just wasnt there. I know the instructor..and others involved..I jumped with this instructor..but I NEVER heard, nor understood, my reserve to be a GUARENTEE! There are no GUARENTEES in life...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Anyone who spouts "guaranteed open" clearly knows little about reserves.

Rob Warner
FAA Master Rigger
CSPA Rigger Instructor
packed more than 3,000 reserves


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 14, 2005, 10:34 AM
Post #85 of 216 (1959 views)
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In reply to:
This is just unbelievable. Thanks to CNN & the AP wire service, not only has it hit every single newspaper and local and national news broadcast in the US, it's now gone international. (Here's the BBC's link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4527754.stm).

For the life of me, I cannot understand what makes her "no shit there I was" story any more worthy of worldwide news coverage than any other skydiver's bonfire story.

3 million skydives worldwide annually, maybe 2 or 3 of them resulting in a reserve mal after a cutaway, and one of them has to happen to her. Someone should tell her it's ok to take the Scarlet "A" off her chest now...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It was a slow news day.


freethefly  (D 24974)

Dec 14, 2005, 10:34 AM
Post #86 of 216 (1959 views)
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Re: [Superfletch] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I am starting to cool down on how I originally felt when this first hit the media airwave. I know Rick and Shayna and know that they are genuinely nice people. Rick is a pretty cool guy and Shayna is an extremely sweet girl. It is a shame how this has played out. It is obvious that they did not realize that this would cause a backlashing that they may regret. I now believe that they did not intend harm on the sport. I also understand the need to pay med bills as I have had to brankrupt over $60,000.00 in medical bills at one time. Having major medical bills piling up with no way to pay can lead to other complications that a person can do without. I hope that this will soon die down and be forgotten. I am also retracting anything negative that I may have posted and I am hoping that Rick and Shayna will not be shunned in the community. I hope that others, also, will wish them nothing but good from here on out as I believe that this is not of their making but only got caught up the media's wave.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 14, 2005, 10:42 AM
Post #87 of 216 (1947 views)
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Re: [antonsteyn] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Different students can absorb different amounts of information on different days.
If you feed them more information - than they can absorb in one sitting - they will "dump" some or fixate on minor points.

That is why first jump instructors fixate on "must knows" then meter out "should knows" depending upon how receptive students are that day. "COuld knows" are best left for later jumps.

Riser turns to stop a spin are "should knows" but probably more than the average first jump student can absorb.

We disagree about when riser turns should be introduced.
But, I do agree with you that a student with 10 jumps "should" have already practiced rear riser turns.


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Dec 14, 2005, 10:42 AM
Post #88 of 216 (1946 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
Dude, yes you can. It's simply because she found herself pregnant during her stay at the hospital. That's sensational and it makes for a good 'story'.

So, ummm, who is the baby's father? Crazy

Her instructor/boyfriend. He's the TM in the Skydive Radio pic.

-Blind


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 10:55 AM
Post #89 of 216 (1934 views)
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Re: student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Am I the only one that's not particularly upset about this??

The news reports don't seem to be all that wrong. Exaggerated? Sure, like they'd be for any story. But people are talking about this like it's another Scott Lutz.

What's the fear? Skydiving is going to go out of business because of some bad publicity? Hell, you'll probably find all kinds of infertile women suddenly coming out for tandems hoping that'll help them get pregnant.

People think skydiving is dangerous. IT IS! Shit like this happens! Why would we expect the media to report otherwise?

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Dec 14, 2005, 11:00 AM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 11:45 AM
Post #90 of 216 (1878 views)
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In reply to:
Am I the only one that's not particularly upset about this??

Yes. We're on a roll. Feed us or go away.Tongue


Orange1  (B 2638)

Dec 14, 2005, 12:17 PM
Post #91 of 216 (1842 views)
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In reply to:
Am I the only one that's not particularly upset about this??

Seems soTongue I think it's partly because of what's been mentioned - it's all over the news, everywhere, and we're all inundated with worried family members and co-workers thinking we're crazy. ...And maybe it's because we tend to underplay the risks to try assure family members that we'll be OK, and then something like this reminds us all that it is dangerous... and we can all go on about most incidents being due to human error, but in the back of our minds we know we all make mistakes and we're just hoping like hell that our own don't happen in the air.

But all that said it really gets my goat to hear someone say "I didn't know what to do"!!! By jump 10... you've been hanging around a DZ, you've been reading things, talking to people, etc. Especially with an instructor bf! By jump 10 you know there's no-one up there holding your hand and even if some of what was taught in FJC went in one ear and out the other, you are well past 1st jump and should realise that you are responsible for your own safety. (Am I right that this was a solo jump? Solo means being cleared to be able to look after yourself in the air?) By jump 10 you should be able to look up and recognise an unstowed toggle. No?


TheMonkey  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 12:25 PM
Post #92 of 216 (1830 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

i'd be pretty salty if i was the rigger that packed that reserve... her interviews says the reserve is "guaranteed" to open, thus implying to the whuffo world that there was a problem with equipment and/or the packing.

no guarantees in this sport, other than if you jump, you will land one way or another... save for spontaneous combustion in freefall, i've never seen but i know a guy....

edit: spelling tard


(This post was edited by TheMonkey on Dec 14, 2005, 12:26 PM)


Loonix

Dec 14, 2005, 12:53 PM
Post #93 of 216 (1788 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What's the fear? Skydiving is going to go out of business because of some bad publicity?

I'm not sure how it is like in the USA, but in Norway, the fact is that after serious accidents, the number of students for FJCs actually increases... It is weird, but true. Which makes me quite unsure about how bad this really is, at least when it comes to the business aspect.

on a sidenote, the story has also hit norwegian newspapers. Smile


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 1:01 PM
Post #94 of 216 (1779 views)
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Re: [TheMonkey] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
her interviews says the reserve is "guaranteed" to open, thus implying to the whuffo world that there was a problem with equipment and/or the packing

There WAS a problem with the equipment and/or the packing. Maybe an easy problem for a more experienced jumper to fix, but there was a problem.

What's the big deal about the "guaranteed to open" comment? Everybody knows that no parachute is guaranteed to open. I'm not talking about skydivers, I mean everybody. Most people believe most skydiving fatalities occur when parachutes "fail to open." If all parachutes opened, it'd be a really safe sport, right?

In her Good Morning America interview, she even recommended that the interviewer try skydiving. She said something like "you've got to try it to understand."

The message I'd take from that is "DAMN, it MUST be good for this girl to say that!"

All these news reports will be long forgotten by the time the student season starts back up in most of the country. And I seriously doubt they'll have any negative effect anywhere.

Are people upset because they believe this will have a negative effect? Maybe I'm dead wrong about this. What do people think? Regardless of how bad the reporting is, what difference will this make?

Dave


goose491  (A 7123)

Dec 14, 2005, 1:02 PM
Post #95 of 216 (1777 views)
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In reply to:
What's the fear? Skydiving is going to go out of business because of some bad publicity?

I think the fear each time we see skydiving portrayed poorly like this in the media is that of futur regulation from outside sources.

The only thing that needs better regulation in our sport (IMHO) is the people we allow to start in Unsure


In reply to:
Hell, you'll probably find all kinds of infertile women suddenly coming out for tandems hoping that'll help them get pregnant.

This was hillarious btw. LaughLaugh


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 14, 2005, 1:07 PM
Post #96 of 216 (1763 views)
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Re: [Orange1] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

It cracks me up... you all dump on her for getting her facts wrong and think she should be some kind of media consultant in the handling of her story or at the very least expect her to know how to handle every situation thrown at her... She made mistakes, it's a shame... Let sleeping dogs lie.

To answer your question AGAIN... That was her 10th skydive. Up until then she had, had several tandems and a couple of IAD's. It was being treated as an AFF LVL 1. She was not cleared to be by herself and she was not by herself. Had you been paying attention to any of these posts you would know that. Sure is easy to pass on miss information isn't it?

You can kind of see how things snowballed to the point they have can't you? If you can't, I don't know what to say about you. It's real easy to point fingers and place blame when you are sitting back in your easy chair watching the news... Maybe you should just shake your head, hope it dies out and show a little compassion rather than log on, get swept up in the frenzy of hate and further twist the story more than it has been already. Had I not read your post and responded it wouldn't surprise me that in a few hours she hadn't left the plane by herself without a parachute, flew over to her instructor, mr. Billed him and rode his main in after he chopped it. Each one of you people that starts off spouting about shit you have no idea about seems to add your own little account of what happened and that gets passed on to the next guy...

To all of you I say... If you weren't there and didn't see the accident or don't personally know these people and have first hand knowledge of what happened AND can be able to repeat it without adding your own damn twist on the chain of events, keep your damn comments to yourself. No one cares how you would have handled the situation, because simply put, the majority of you out there probably don't know what you'd do unless you were faced with it yourself.

Like I said, I don't condone what they did or how this hit the airways... turns out that her high school science teacher started the deal in the first place thinking he was helping out. However you can't expect an AFF LVL 1 student to keep all her facts straight, know exactly what to do in any situation, know all the terminology involved and especially read the minds of half of you assholes and know what to say that wouldn't upset you. Period! And if you do... You've got bigger problems than Shayna ever did have.


justinb138  (B 28762)

Dec 14, 2005, 1:09 PM
Post #97 of 216 (1762 views)
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In reply to:
There WAS a problem with the equipment and/or the packing. Maybe an easy problem for a more experienced jumper to fix, but there was a problem.

Are you talking about the main or reserve?

There was nothing wrong with the main, the jumper unstowed only one of the brakes, then chopped it as it went into a spin.


goose491  (A 7123)

Dec 14, 2005, 1:11 PM
Post #98 of 216 (1760 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand the Stima attached to a poorly reported skydive incident.

I understand how it gives the sport a "black eye" to read or hear "The chute didn't open."

But in this case, I truly fail to see how she is hindering the sport to say what she is saying and follow it up by the fact that she'll be right back in the saddle as soon as she is able!

I try to see this from Whuffo eyes, and I too can say nothing more then: "It MUST mean something that she is willing to go back."

Also, let's not take the entire whuffo population as complete saps here. She is introduced as a student, it is mentioned that she only had 9 jumps, and her own words about how she delt with her problems on deployment ("I didn't know what to do") don't land responsibility for her injury on the sport at all!

just my $0.02CND


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 1:12 PM
Post #99 of 216 (1759 views)
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Re: [justinb138] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I was talking about the reserve.

Dave


hexadecimal

Dec 14, 2005, 1:14 PM
Post #100 of 216 (1755 views)
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Re: [goose491] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

If this girl does continue in the sport, I really hope she is started back at AFF1 with a good instructor and quizzed several times to prove that she actually remembers the things she needs to know this time before she is allowed back in the air.


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 1:18 PM
Post #101 of 216 (1913 views)
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Re: [hexadecimal] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I've gotta agree with superfletch a few posts up. How can we say what she needs to do differently next time if we don't know what she did this time? I don't know how much quizzing she did or how much instruction or practice she got before the jump.

Obviously any student needs to be taught the right things before every jump. But they can't be taught EVERYTHING. I don't remember learning what to do if my reserve is spinning before I did AFF 1. Maybe she was taught it and just panicked. Maybe she wasn't taught it at all. Were you? Are most students? Does it even matter?

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Dec 14, 2005, 1:19 PM)


Airedale  (Student)

Dec 14, 2005, 1:24 PM
Post #102 of 216 (1904 views)
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Re: [Dolph] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm new to the sport too, and I have a question about your suggestion to try pulling on the rear risers to slow the descent (if flaring with toggles doesn't help). I've experimented a LITTLE with steering & flaring with risers while up high, and it's pretty hard to get a good grasp of something that thin and narrow. Here's the question: How would winding your hand and wrist around the riser (picture a snake going up a flagpole), with fingers gripping the tape, work?


Orange1  (B 2638)

Dec 14, 2005, 1:29 PM
Post #103 of 216 (1887 views)
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Re: [Superfletch] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To answer your question AGAIN... That was her 10th skydive. Up until then she had, had several tandems and a couple of IAD's. It was being treated as an AFF LVL 1. She was not cleared to be by herself and she was not by herself.

my bad - and entirely my fault for believing the media "It was her first AFF solo jump" Here an "AFF solo" is the last 3 jumps on AFF progression, when you are cleared for solo jumping. [And (um) you weren't answering my question "again"?? I didn't ask it before] Still, I do think that having a few tandems and especially the IADs does take her beyond a normal "first jumper".. but that is purely my opinion.

btw i made no comment about how i thought she should have handled the media.


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 14, 2005, 1:44 PM
Post #104 of 216 (1871 views)
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Re: [Orange1] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I just used your post to start a bit of a rant... I know you hadn't asked it again but there are 3-4 posts on DZ.Com talking about this right now and that question has been asked and aswered several times.

As far as how to handle the media, etc... that part of the post I was directing to the general population of DZ.Com, not you in particular.

These people are my friends. I'm upset too that they haven't stepped up and clarified more. Basically, Shayna is doing all the talking and she really doesn't know what she's talking about. Rick is sitting beside her allowing her to say it thinking the whole time that if he stays out of it, no ill will, will come his way. My guess is that will haunt him down the road. Rick is not the brightest bulb on the tree. Rick made mistakes, Shayna made mistakes and now the WHOLE world knows about them. It just comes down to that. She starts every interview explaining to the interviewer she doesn't want to spin the story torwards the negative thinking that is covering her bases. She ends every interview saying she wants to jump again thinking that will not give us a "black eye". She's just naive and is catching all hell through here... I just don't think it's right.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 1:46 PM
Post #105 of 216 (1868 views)
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Re: [goose491] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
just my $0.02CND

FYI, that's $0.0166 in real money. Hm, not much value there..

I guess most of us couldn't care less what strangers think (unless it leads to more regulation of the sport). For most of us, we react to shitty publicity like this because it's just one more piece of uninformed ammunition our moms, siblings and coworkers use to give us grief with. Remember, "whuffo" means "Whuffo you f**king maniacs do that crazy shit for?" Don't you get tired of having that conversation? I know I do.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 1:49 PM
Post #106 of 216 (1878 views)
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In reply to:
Shayna is doing all the talking and she really doesn't know what she's talking about. .... Rick is not the brightest bulb on the tree. Rick made mistakes, Shayna made mistakes and now the WHOLE world knows about them.

...And now these two are replicating themselves. Well, that's just great.Unsure


tso-d_chris

Dec 14, 2005, 2:07 PM
Post #107 of 216 (1861 views)
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In reply to:
That was her 10th skydive. Up until then she had, had several tandems and a couple of IAD's. It was being treated as an AFF LVL 1. She was not cleared to be by herself and she was not by herself.

Was there a second AFF Instructor on her jump? I've never heard of a single jump master AFF level one.


TheMonkey  (D License)

Dec 14, 2005, 2:13 PM
Post #108 of 216 (1849 views)
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Quote:
That was her 10th skydive. Up until then she had, had several tandems and a couple of IAD's. It was being treated as an AFF LVL 1.

not attacking you fletch, but if this is the case then why was there only 1 jumpmaster?

beat to the punch


(This post was edited by TheMonkey on Dec 14, 2005, 2:14 PM)


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 14, 2005, 2:13 PM
Post #109 of 216 (1849 views)
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Re: [tso-d_chris] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

It is my understanding that she went through a Tandem/IAD/AFF progression... for whatever that's worth. She had several tandems for which she received some instruction on at least one. She did several IAD jumps which included Practice Pilot Chute Throws. Her AFF instructor then took her up for a Single Instructor AFF jump where she was only asked to do practice touches and circle of awareness as per a Lvl 1 dive. I'm not an AFF jumpmaster yet, so I'm not aware of all the intricasies of that discipline yet. This is just how I understand her progression to have went. Whether it's an acceptable method or not I'll let an AFF Instructor decide. Hope that information helps.


tso-d_chris

Dec 14, 2005, 2:31 PM
Post #110 of 216 (1829 views)
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Re: [Superfletch] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Tandem to AFF progression, aka IAF (Instructor Assisted Freefall) allows the student to do their first 3 jumps as tandems, with substantially the same learning objectives as the first 3 AFF jumps. The first solo jump is an AFF level 4.

IAF tandems receive as much ground school prior to their tandem jumps as AFF students.

One of the two drop zones on the Mt. Vernon airport, the airport these two jumpers previously jumped at, has been successfully using the IAF program for years, long before USPA's ISP.


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Dec 14, 2005, 3:24 PM
Post #111 of 216 (1791 views)
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In reply to:
One of the two drop zones on the Mt. Vernon airport, the airport these two jumpers previously jumped at, has been successfully using the IAF program for years, long before USPA's ISP.

Are you talking about SD:MO? I know when I was going to Rigger's School there, Fiesty claimed to have pretty much invented the IAF method. Rick jumped at FFE, the other dz at Mt. Vernon.

-Blind


Everon

Dec 14, 2005, 3:40 PM
Post #112 of 216 (1779 views)
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Re: [Superfletch] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay, I will be returning to the sport in the spring and due to currency issues I'll start at AFF 2. To tell you the truth I can't wait. I've learned so much by reading the incidents section but there are some questions I have about this particular one.

Since it's been so long since my level 1 training I have forgotten most of what I was taught concerning malfunctions. Is an "unstowed toggle" a toggle that is no longer connected to the velcrow? If so, what would cause this? I was taught to keep my eye on the canopy and note it's inflation and note the slider until the slider decends completely. Now, if I start spinning the first thing I'd do is immediately check the toggles, no? If indeed one is unstowed, I would grab it, bring it to the level of the other toggle and then release the other toggle and take it from there, correct? If this woman had done this, would she have been okay?

Second, it seems the slider was stuck on the reserve. How would this alter the performance of the reserve, or any canopy for that matter? Has it been determined exactly why she went into such a violent spin? I could only imagine this poor girl losing it completely under these circumstances with her inexperience. I admire her courage and determination to skydive again in the future.

Anyway I want to thank all of you for everything I'm learning from your posts - it's truly invaluable to me. I only have 3 jumps due to financial reasons but next year I'll have enough set aside to jump 1 or 2 times a week. I truly love this sport!

Dale


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 14, 2005, 4:00 PM
Post #113 of 216 (1766 views)
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In reply to:
Is an "unstowed toggle" a toggle that is no longer connected to the velcrow? If so, what would cause this?

if I start spinning the first thing I'd do is immediately check the toggles, no? If indeed one is unstowed, I would grab it, bring it to the level of the other toggle and then release the other toggle and take it from there, correct? If this woman had done this, would she have been okay?

Second, it seems the slider was stuck on the reserve. How would this alter the performance of the reserve, or any canopy for that matter? Has it been determined exactly why she went into such a violent spin?

Hmmm... lemme tackle these one at a time. There are different types of toggles. Not all of them have velcro. When you pack a parachute you set the brakes in the half brake position. In shayna's case when she was performing her rear riser turns (brakes stowed) she dislodged a toggle and unset the brake on one side. This allowed her steering line to release which put that side of her canopy in full flight so it was flying faster than the other side of her parachute inducing a turn. This can happen on opening as well for many different reasons. Perhaps the slider pops them off or hell in a hard enough opening gravity can do it. Regardless, if you find yourself in a steep turn and spiraling on opening, YES, by all means check both toggles. You can pull the released brake down to the half brake setting to stop the turn or you can release the other side and allow it to go to full flight... I would suggest doing both quickly. Had Shayna simply released her stowed brake or pulled down the unstowed brake line to a half break setting, her spin would have stopped and she would have realized that she was no longer in eminent danger and would have given herself plenty of time to decide on an appropriate course of action.

As for the slider being stuck... no one really knows at this point. The FAA's findings were inconclusive. We're not sure why it didn't come down all the way... Many "theories" have been expressed but as I write this... no one really knows for sure. As you can planely see in the video, the slider being stuck more than halfway up the lines is hampering the parachute from FULLY opening. One side of the parachute seems to be more cupped than the other and this would explain the spin. Not being fully opened and in a spinning configuration increased the speed of decent. About the only course of action she had here was to pump the risers and toggles for all she was worth. In your FJC you should have been told to NEVER give up... We told you that for your health... NEVER give up. That last second could be the one that releases the slider and allows the parachute to open saving your life... You hear me? NEVER GIVE UP!!!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 14, 2005, 4:00 PM
Post #114 of 216 (1766 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>Hell, you'll probably find all kinds of infertile women suddenly coming
>out for tandems hoping that'll help them get pregnant.

I know more than one woman who came out for a first jump, and then later found herself with a skydiving-related pregnancy . . .


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Dec 14, 2005, 4:21 PM
Post #115 of 216 (1744 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
What's the fear? Skydiving is going to go out of business because of some bad publicity?

I'm not sure how it is like in the USA, but in Norway, the fact is that after serious accidents, the number of students for FJCs actually increases... It is weird, but true. Which makes me quite unsure about how bad this really is, at least when it comes to the business aspect.

Same in Australia.


Everon

Dec 14, 2005, 4:49 PM
Post #116 of 216 (1729 views)
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Re: [Superfletch] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

When you pack a parachute you set the brakes in the half brake position.

> Is this true of all canopies? The toggles on my student rig were almost full arm length above my shoulder (velcro), and half brake would be shoulder level.

In shayna's case when she was performing her rear riser turns (brakes stowed) she dislodged a toggle and unset the brake on one side. This allowed her steering line to release which put that side of her canopy in full flight so it was flying faster than the other side of her parachute inducing a turn.

> I see, so she just panicked. That may explain the "snap" she heard then.

As you can planely see in the video, the slider being stuck more than halfway up the lines is hampering the parachute from FULLY opening. One side of the parachute seems to be more cupped than the other and this would explain the spin. Not being fully opened and in a spinning configuration increased the speed of decent. About the only course of action she had here was to pump the risers and toggles for all she was worth.

> Understood, I remember this now from the FJC. I remember my instructor telling me to repeatedly flare, but I forgot what would you do with the risers if this fails?

In your FJC you should have been told to NEVER give up... We told you that for your health... NEVER give up. That last second could be the one that releases the slider and allows the parachute to open saving your life... You hear me? NEVER GIVE UP!!!

> Now this I do remember. Between the FJC and the other two half hour trainings I must have heard this, ummm, at least a couple dozen times.

Thank you!

Dale


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 14, 2005, 5:33 PM
Post #117 of 216 (1712 views)
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About the only course of action she had here was to pump the risers and toggles for all she was worth.<<


Or once one realizes that pumping the breaks will not fix the slider, with both hands if nessary suspend you entire weight on the opposite side riser, to GET THE CANOPY LEVEL OVERHEAD! Then releasing a little bit of tension to allow it to turn 90 degrees or so and aim for a big grassy field, PLF.


Also if you pump the toggles and the slider is still stuck up the lines, flare fully, and hold momentarly, then only pump the lower end of the stroke will clear the slider. But in any case never give up.


tso-d_chris

Dec 14, 2005, 6:16 PM
Post #118 of 216 (1692 views)
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Re: [BlindBrick] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Are you talking about SD:MO? I know when I was going to Rigger's School there, Fiesty claimed to have pretty much invented the IAF method. Rick jumped at FFE, the other dz at Mt. Vernon.

As I understood it, he was working with IAF simultaneously with, but independently of Roger Nelson. It is actually an effective program. I didn't go through it, but I was around it while I was jumping there. His students tended to do very well with canopy control, compared to other student programs I've been around.


(This post was edited by tso-d_chris on Dec 14, 2005, 6:22 PM)


itllclear  (D 6366)

Dec 14, 2005, 6:20 PM
Post #119 of 216 (1690 views)
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In reply to:
>I know more than one woman who came out for a first jump, and then later found herself with a skydiving-related pregnancy . . .

I've often wondered if the waiver would help in the paternity suit. The condition is "skydiving related." I can see the incident report. "A condom (or vasectomy) may have avoided the situation."

Blue Skies!


Liemberg  (Student)

Dec 14, 2005, 6:45 PM
Post #120 of 216 (1678 views)
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Quote:
If this girl does continue in the sport, I really hope she is started back at AFF1 with a good instructor and quizzed several times to prove that she actually remembers the things she needs to know this time before she is allowed back in the air.

If YOU do continue in the sport, I really hope you learn to be less judgemental about other peoples performances during 'iregularities / incidents / malfunctions'...

Shanya is NOT the first person to chop a canopy where the only problem is a popped toggle. I have seen several people do this and personaly made that same mistake in 1982 but was fortunate enough to end up under a good reserve.

She wasn't as fortunate as I was.

From the moment the reserve malfunctioned "all bets were off" as the saying goes. Could someone with a lot more experience than she has handle that situation and produce a better result? Maybe, but your average "less than 100 jumps wonder" is also a "zero reserve rides wonder" and things have a tendency to go really really fast in the real world...

And giving the sport or the DZ or the DZO or the rigger a black eye? Come on...

The local DZO is probably hiring extra staff for next season because of this! Cool

The story that gets everybody so worked up is as much selective hearing from the journalists as what she is actually saying.

"I'll jump again!"
Way to go girl! Smile

One final note: Since she is suddenly with a child, and flooded with medical bills one of you yuppie skydivers who makes his jump money in the dental profession care to give her a break? *)

You'll earn lots of Karma points which is good when you fall out of airplanes with two closed packages on your back... everybody knows that! Smile

(Besides - she might make it to Oprah... can't be bad for business...)

*) yeah, I know - "don't go skydiving without good medical insurance"... but that shouldn't result in having her go through life without teeth now shouldn't it?


blacksha  (B 31921)

Dec 14, 2005, 8:20 PM
Post #121 of 216 (1644 views)
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Hmmm. Well, I've read all the messages on this entire thread and I have to say it's been quite interesting to hear everyone's viewpoints.

I only have 19 jumps, and I've been hounded countless times by family members, friends, everyone, asking me why the heck do keep doing this?

I had my first reserve ride on my 19th jump actually. And being that I have only 19 jumps, I'm not exactly sure what happened. I did a few static line jumps, a few hop and pops, and a few 5 second delays before I switched to AFF. I found both methods of instruction to be extremely educational!! I found static line to be great for canopy instruction without overwhelming worry of what happens in freefall. Then, when I felt more confident with my canopy skills, I switched over to AFF to learn more about freefall. It did wonders in comparison to my limited (and still limited) knowledge on my 5 second delays. Yes I was d*mn nieve those first few jumps thinking how I will be just fine with instructors jumping with me. My instructors made it real clear to me that they were only going to do so much, but when it came down to it I was jumping on my own and needed to be able to handle myself. It scared me at the time but it made me realize I needed to step up to the plate and quite depending on them.

By my 19th jump, I was having alot of fun, and also realized every single jump that emergency procedures may be just what I need to do if something bad happened. And it did. I pulled my ripcord (spring loaded pilot chute) at 5500, did a 5 count...then 6, 7, 8 (sh!!) and automatically started my cutaway and reserve procedures. Before I even got to the reserve the RSL activated. I was told later that I probably had a pilot chute hesitation (burble). By the time I looked at my altimeter I was at 3000 and under a good reserve canopy. While I'm sure I was told about that possibility before, all the training can be pretty overwhelming for a new student. I landed on a 250 reserve, but flared a little late, came in running, fell forward, and didn't PLF. I suffered a broken wrist (over 3 months ago) that I'm still waiting for it to heal. I learned three things on that jump...next time look behind to see if the chute is deploying, next time react faster, and when in doubt, PLF!!!!

I think we learned on jump number 3 (first static line jump), that if the canopy starts to spin, check for a lineover and check for a loose toggle.

We are all upset that people are asking us why the heck we are still skydiving (or in my case wanting to skydive). But at the end of the day, I remind myself that skydiving is very dangerous, and, while these people are a little uneducated about skydiving truths, ultimately, it is dangerous, it is your life up there, it is fun, but every jump always be prepared. And also explain to the people asking in more detail about what other facts you have to ask before automatically deciding, that parachute won't open. This is what the majority of people think. I tell them again and again, that the same thing could happen to me, I'm not experienced, but that I educate myself about packing, malfunctions, etc. so that when and if things happen I'll be as prepared as possible. But ultimately, if it aint' your day to make it, no matter how trained your are, it ain't your day. Live on! Be smart! Be educated! And jump!

As far as Shayna. Awesome that she wants to jump again. If I were her, I'd review all over again what all the possible malfunctions are and drill drill drill until she knows what to do in every situation. And also tell myself that no chute ever is guaranteed. All you can do is reduce the odds!

As far as the media coverage goes, I'd like to see alot more answers that delegate what really happened to the skydiving community, and alot more answers saying I don't skydive enough to know completely what really happened but I will learn before I jump again.

Everyone have a great day.
Unexperienced jumper but dedicated to learning more, hope I didn't piss anyone off.

All in all, the posts above reminded me that when I jump again, I can also try balancing with the rear risers, for some reason that didn't click with my brain before (that I remember, last jump was 3 months ago) but I should definitely know that at 19 jumps.
Lonne


freethefly  (D 24974)

Dec 14, 2005, 11:46 PM
Post #122 of 216 (1587 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I posted this at the Bonfire and thought I should post it here also after reading Liemberg's comment on her med bills. It should also be realized that jumpers with far more experiance have done far worst than she did and with a far worst outcome - death. We all should be extremely happy that the latter was not the outcome in this incident and focus on that as the sport has survived far worst exposure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, she did get a break on her dental, but she is still left with aprx $450,000.00 in medical bills. She has no medical insurance, and even if she did, most likely it would not cover this accident. Most insurance companies will not cover accidents that result from participation in a dangerous sport.

And again, please let me reiterate, SHE DID NOT SEEK OUT THIS PRESS COVERAGE; THE PRESS SOUGHT OUT HER.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is why I changed my feelings towards this. Her $450,000.00 is a far cry from the $60,000.00 I bankrupt. Once I realized exactly how I felt with mounting bills and no possiable way to pay it put me in Shaynas place. This poor girl is pregnant and in need of assistance and all we have done is berate her. I for one am ashamed that I let my passion for the sport over ride my compassion for another human in need. I hope that they can forgive me for not seeing the whole picture. If you have the ability to place yourself in her situation, do it and then look at what she faces in the future. Hopefully you will see it from her standpoint. I hope that she can garner some income from this and be at ease. I also hope that others can understand that they also can find themselves in such a situation and will most likely do what it takes to get on with living a fullfilling life minus the pain and aggravation of mounting debt. After all, skydiving ain't nothing but a thing. Shayna on the other hand is a person in time of need. Let's all have alittle compassion for her and Rick. I cannot imagine how he feels for what has happened. It must be terrible knowing that your descision nearly cost the life of someone you love. Leave them alone and just shut up and jumpCool


(This post was edited by freethefly on Dec 14, 2005, 11:52 PM)


piisfish

Dec 15, 2005, 1:05 AM
Post #123 of 216 (1573 views)
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Re: [jdthomas] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

so many things are written on this topic...

Do we know accurately what rig and what reserve were used ??


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Dec 15, 2005, 2:35 AM
Post #124 of 216 (1559 views)
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Quote:
Do we know accurately what rig and what reserve were used ??

That's what I want to know. I seem to be the only person in the world at the moment who's concerned by the reports that she was possibly on a 126 reserve. A student on a 126! Am I the only one who's wondering how low her medicals bills would actually be if that was a 210 rather than a 126???


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Dec 15, 2005, 3:31 AM
Post #125 of 216 (1551 views)
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In reply to:
Am I the only one who's wondering how low her medicals bills would actually be if that was a 210 rather than a 126???

So? And what if she could skipped that jump?

IMHO your question makes no sense.


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Dec 15, 2005, 3:35 AM
Post #126 of 216 (2294 views)
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Quote:
So? And what if she could skipped that jump?

IMHO your question makes no sense.

The difference is should students skip all jumps or should students be put out on something bigger than a 126 reserve canopy?


(This post was edited by mr2mk1g on Dec 15, 2005, 3:47 AM)


heftee  (D 27090)

Dec 15, 2005, 6:36 AM
Post #127 of 216 (2223 views)
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Re: [Superfletch] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Had Shayna simply released her stowed brake or pulled down the unstowed brake line to a half break setting, her spin would have stopped and she would have realized that she was no longer in eminent danger and would have given herself plenty of time to decide on an appropriate course of action.

Again, I can understand her need to help with medical bills and expenses and all of that. I find myself more upset about what is NOT said on the interviews than by what is. I agree, her saying "I'm jumping again" is a good thing. The average person will think "wow, it must be great if even SHE is willing to go again!"
However, why hasn't she (from what I've seen - if she has I haven't seen it) say some of the stuff of what you said above? Why didn't she force the interview to explain possible reasons for what caused her spin and possible fixes. Yes, she's a student with less experience than us who claim we would have fixed it blah blah blah, but even though she didn't do this fix, it sure would be nice to hear an interview with intelligent information (bash in the interviewER not interviewEE) and explaination of the situation. I just get so mad the interviewER doesn't include an "expert" - someone to help shed some light on the incident. Our DZ.com forum's purpose is to learn from these situations - I wish the media would have the same intentions.
What I tell all the dozens and dozens of people who ask me about this is "It's a horrible accident and I'm glad she and her child are okay, but this is something that could have had a different turn out if she had done some things differently. I wish she had, but if she had, you wouldn't have seen the story on the news."
I'd like to express the wish that the USPA consider having a representative try to work with the media on these types of things. Oh yeah, I also wish for a few million bucks....


JeepDiver  (D License)

Dec 15, 2005, 6:58 AM
Post #128 of 216 (2208 views)
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Quote:
I find myself more upset about what is NOT said on the interviews than by what is

from the other thread.

I haven't seen the national TV interviews, only the online newsfeed which was posted in the other thread.

Consider this people for I have first hand knowledge. Most TV interviews are edited to the point of only telling the story the "News" station wants told. Most interviews will last up to an hour with several dozens questions asked and asked again in a different manner. The interview is then edited down to the sensational aspects of the story.

She's lucky she was even able to say she wants to skydive again once the baby is born and have that statement aired. After all she has been through it just makes her look foolish to the general public.

Most news vultures could care less about the people they interview or the truth to the story. It's themselves and their careers they are most interested in.

.....editied to add one example,

I'm sure some reporter asked her to remove her bridge which replaces her missing teeth. How does she look on air doing that?


OnYourBack  (D 25190)

Dec 15, 2005, 7:17 AM
Post #129 of 216 (2193 views)
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Re: [JeepDiver] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

The rig was a Reflex. Purchased from an experienced jumper. Unfortunately I don't know the size of the reserve at the moment but will get it. I don't believe it was a 126.


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 15, 2005, 7:59 AM
Post #130 of 216 (2162 views)
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In reply to:
The rig was a Reflex. Purchased from an experienced jumper. Unfortunately I don't know the size of the reserve at the moment but will get it. I don't believe it was a 126.

Reflex sizing chart: http://www.tridenthc.com/ReflexSizes.htm

A 190 main and 126 reserve didn't sound even close to right to me. My reflex holds a 120 reserve and MAYBE a ZP 150 main but it'd be a VERY tight squeeze.

Dave


Premier Remster  (C License)

Dec 15, 2005, 8:03 AM
Post #131 of 216 (2157 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave: it was reported that the rig was made for a 135 main.


pilotdave  (D License)

Dec 15, 2005, 8:11 AM
Post #132 of 216 (2150 views)
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Re: [Remster] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, that just doesn't sound right to me. Mine was also designed for a 135 main (I think... a 135 fits perfectly). I barely squeezed an F111 150 main into it. A sabre2 190 wouldn't even come close to fitting in mine. Even with a 150, mine clearly looked overstuffed. I'd often have dbag corners hanging out on the sides of the main flap. Can't imagine what it would have looked like with a ZP 190. Mine was especially bad because the dbag was oversized, but still, I can't see a 190 going into a reflex made for a 135.

Dave


tso-d_chris

Dec 15, 2005, 8:18 AM
Post #133 of 216 (2144 views)
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In reply to:
Yeah, that just doesn't sound right to me. Mine was also designed for a 135 main (I think... a 135 fits perfectly). I barely squeezed an F111 150 main into it. A sabre2 190 wouldn't even come close to fitting in mine. Even with a 150, mine clearly looked overstuffed. I'd often have dbag corners hanging out on the sides of the main flap. Can't imagine what it would have looked like with a ZP 190. Mine was especially bad because the dbag was oversized, but still, I can't see a 190 going into a reflex made for a 135.

The container looks identical to one (previously?) owned by an experienced jumper from the instructor's home drop zone. If it is the same container, it was built for a Triathlon 135 main.


OnYourBack  (D 25190)

Dec 15, 2005, 8:24 AM
Post #134 of 216 (2139 views)
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The Reflex was sized for a 135, that was one of the issues people had with instructor using the 190 main. He was told by several people that it wasn't a good idea.


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 15, 2005, 9:27 AM
Post #135 of 216 (2087 views)
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The questions you pose you would have to ask her. I can't speak for her and wouldn't even want to.

I whole heartedly agree with the rest of what your saying. I wish Rick would step up to the plate and do his skydiving duty as an AFFI and rectify some of this but he hasn't and that's that.

As far as what you been telling people about the accident to help explain, it's just about the same thing I've been saying myself. What more can we do?


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Dec 15, 2005, 10:13 AM
Post #136 of 216 (2052 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah, that just doesn't sound right to me. Mine was also designed for a 135 main (I think... a 135 fits perfectly). I barely squeezed an F111 150 main into it. A sabre2 190 wouldn't even come close to fitting in mine.

It was indeed a 190 crammed into a a Reflex sized for a 135. And Chris, if you're thinking of the one that is a Refelx in a gawd-awful shade of pink, it's that one.

This was enough of a concern to Shayna that Rick did a test jump on it a couple hours before the fateful jump to reassure her that it was OK.

Right after the accident, I didn't see what the big deal was about the oversized main. Yes, it was putting undue wear and tear on the rig, but as it was a temporary situation and test jumps showed the system worked, I could understand it as a "make do" deal. Now having had some time to reflect and realize how many of Shayna's bad choices were appearantly made out of fear, I'd consider the rig/main combo t be one of the major factors in this just because it amped up Shayna's fear level.

-Blind


(This post was edited by BlindBrick on Dec 15, 2005, 11:09 AM)


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 15, 2005, 10:24 AM
Post #137 of 216 (2042 views)
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Re: [BlindBrick] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I was personally consulted as to whether or not I would think that rig would be OK for Shayna to jump. My answer was "NO". I didn't like the fact that with the Sabre2 190 crammed in there it was bulging so much and the flaps wouldn't even come close to aligning.

I know of several others that were consulted also and they said "no". I'm not even sure why we were asked because "they" decided to jump it anyhow. Just goes to show some of the poor judgement that was used.

Turns out my concerns were a moot point because the container opened fine both times it was jumped. However, had "they" taken the advice of their peers this incident probably would not have happened.

It just goes to show that if you value someones opinion enough to ask them for it, you might want to actually consider listening to it even if the answer is not what you want to hear.

As for the size of the reserve... I'm not positive. I can tell you that my DZO has had one ride under it himself so it has worked in the past...


hexadecimal

Dec 15, 2005, 11:22 AM
Post #138 of 216 (2004 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
If this girl does continue in the sport, I really hope she is started back at AFF1 with a good instructor and quizzed several times to prove that she actually remembers the things she needs to know this time before she is allowed back in the air.

If YOU do continue in the sport, I really hope you learn to be less judgemental about other peoples performances during 'iregularities / incidents / malfunctions'...
Are you trying to say that she DIDN'T receive apparently substandard instruction and lack the proper knowledge to stay safe in the air? My point wasn't to insult her, my point is that she needs better training and she needs to have a better understanding of what is going on. I don't want anyone who has the attitude that their reserve is a "guaranteed open" in the air with me.

I'm really not sure what you mean by this. Is the general attitude when someone is a potential danger to themselves and others in this sport supposed to be "oh well, I'm just glad they want to jump again"?


SkiD_PL8  (A License)

Dec 15, 2005, 12:04 PM
Post #139 of 216 (1978 views)
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Re: [hexadecimal] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I just hope that Rick is not allowed to continue her training. Actually I don't think he should be training anyone, but that is for the USPA to decide. I am glad shayna got off as easy as she did since the odds were definitely stacked against her well before she stepped in the plane.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Dec 15, 2005, 12:14 PM
Post #140 of 216 (1970 views)
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Re: [BlindBrick] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It was indeed a 190 crammed into a a Reflex sized for a 135. And Chris, if you're thinking of the one that is a Refelx in a gawd-awful shade of pink, it's that one.

The 190 crammed into a smaller container doesnt bother me as much as what size reserve was in there. You can fit a much larger main in the main tray (I wouldnt recommend it, and it would be one ugly pack job) but that part doesnt scare me too much. Its the reserve...

Does some one KNOW what was the reserve?


jdthomas  (D License)

Dec 15, 2005, 1:09 PM
Post #141 of 216 (1946 views)
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Re: [Remster] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote from: riggerjoe on October 17, 2005, 04:17:05 PM
Right so it's something they both wanted yet her parents are not being told.. does not sound accidental to me at all.. but thanks for the update..
Joe


"joe... i've spoken to rick about this, and why her parents aren't yet being told. from what i understand, the fact that shayna just got divorced, is involved with rick, who is a skydiver, and she just got in a skydiving accident that nearly killed her, is causing understandable stress to her parents and siblings. from what i understand, shayna thinks adding the fact that she's pregnant is just a little too much stress for them at this time. i believe she's waiting for a more opportune moment to share this with her family, when they are more in a position to be excited about it as opposed to upset. some of her immediate family had not even met rick until the accident. so... it seems that rick thought it was common knowledge on IH that shayna was pregnant, but knew that shayna wanted to share it with her blood family at a more opportune time and rick's comment was merely to ensure shayna would be able to tell them on her own terms. is that all clear now?"

Just food for thought here.. this is a post accident conversation on a private site called Industrial haze. It is a chat site that persons from the DZ where the accident happend and the DZ where the instructor was from use to..well Chat!

The conversation is about Shayna and her new found upcoming motherhood.
With the recent knowledge that I have gained that she did not have health insurance, rick had no insurance and no one seemed to be holding a real full time job it makes me wonder where they thought money was going to come from to have a child.
It's now obvious they planned to have a child as per the words of Rick himself. and still had no means to support a child. that really makes me sad.
Joe


skydivedon  (D 25331)

Dec 15, 2005, 9:02 PM
Post #142 of 216 (1803 views)
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Re: [Superfletch] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

My, my, my... this istuation has certainly gotten a lot of attention....... around the world. I know many of you who have been posting, I know the instructor and have jupmed many, many times with most of you at FFE. Is a matter of fact, my FIRST and ONLY cut-away was for the EXACT same reason (many of you were there when I did it). I would not cut -away for that same reason now because I am EXPERIENCED! SHE WAS NOT! I see absolutely CANNOT and WOULD NOT fault a student for cutting awayy if THEY thought they had a problem that THEY could not figure out. PERIOD! Whether it's a good idea or a bad idea in retrospect is what we talk about with our instructors after we land safely with a good reserve.

She, obviously, thought she should cut-awayto save her damn life and she DID! THAT's what she, or any one of us, are taught to do. Don't hang there and try to figure it out until it's too late! We've all heard of jumpers with 1,000's of jumps who have done that and they don't make it. She at least did what SHE thought she should do ad THAT time. While there are lot's things that cloud the issue (boyfriend, girlfriend, wrong size bag, bad decisions, etc..) IMO the real issues that need to be looked at are:

1. Who packed her main and what happened to cause the problem?

2. Who packed her reserve and why did the slider not come down?

3. What was the quality of her instruction and did anyone else instruct her (or test her) besides her boyfriend? If so, did they feel she was capable of handling THAT Sabre II 190?

Now, we can all find fault with teaching your girlfriend anything becasue you generally are either too critical or not critical enough. THAT's why it's not a good idea. Like I said. I know the instructor pretty well and IMO he should have steered clear of doing that because of bad decisions he's made skydiving in the past. That's not to say that someone else could have instructed their boy/girl friend better, but knowing him, he should not have that.

I just could sit back and read all of the comments that are really not issues in the "accident". Thank GOD MY reserve opened properly when I did the same silly thing.


Superfletch  (D 26145)

Dec 15, 2005, 9:06 PM
Post #143 of 216 (1800 views)
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Re: [skydivedon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Don you silly bastard... where the hell have you been? I miss my freeflying buddies... Haven't seen Hunter in ages either... When you coming back out?


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Dec 15, 2005, 10:06 PM
Post #144 of 216 (1782 views)
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Re: [skydivedon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1. Who packed her main and what happened to cause the problem?

Her main was packed by our DZ's packer. Sometimes we have more student pack jobs than he can get packed on a Sunday, so I've came in on weekdays so he could finish the work(FAA requires a rigger supervise packjobs that are done by anybody other than another rigger or the next person to jump the rig). Watching how thorough he was with them was the primary reason I agreed to let him apprentice under me. The kid's good and something like not stowing a brake is not the kind of error that he'd likely make.

If i had had any doubts about that, they would have been disproven by watching the main deploy. I saw Shayna's opening and the canopy opened flying straight and level. It did not begin to turn until several seconds after it fully opened. If it had been an unstowed brake, the canopy would have begin turning immediately upon opening.

-Blind


Zenister  (A 42)

Dec 15, 2005, 11:02 PM
Post #145 of 216 (1773 views)
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Re: [skydivedon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1. Who packed her main and what happened to cause the problem?

uh... based on several i witness accounts here, the packjob was never the problem.. its her actions and failure to address them properly that caused the problem...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 15, 2005, 11:38 PM
Post #146 of 216 (1763 views)
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Re: [skydivedon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

> I see absolutely CANNOT and WOULD NOT fault a student for cutting
> awayy if THEY thought they had a problem that THEY could not figure out.
> PERIOD! Whether it's a good idea or a bad idea in retrospect is what we
> talk about with our instructors after we land safely with a good reserve.

Which is what we are doing here. A brake fire can (and should) be noticed and fixed by a student. Reserves can and do malfunction; fixing a brake fire can prevent serious injury or death. (That doesn't mean that you should get all Old Testament on their ass - but it is an issue that should be discussed.)

Another question I would add to your list was reserve size. Smaller reserves can spin up faster; larger reserves make surviving mistakes under reserves (or even reserve malfunctions!) more likely.


mark135  (D License)

Dec 16, 2005, 1:31 AM
Post #147 of 216 (1749 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
On the contrary - I think his concern was the fact that it had a 126 RESERVE in there!!!

(possibly... although it would be a rather unusual container if it had a main pack tray sized for a 135 and a tempo 170 in the reserve).

Not really. I have a Stilleto 135 and a 181-m in my quasar.


Liemberg  (Student)

Dec 16, 2005, 1:39 AM
Post #148 of 216 (1747 views)
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Re: [hexadecimal] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know what kind of instruction she got, since I wasn't there when she got it. Were you?
And the fact that I'm glad someone wants to jump again doesn't mean that I actually think it is a good idea if they do, just means that I'm glad they survived and look back at their skydiving adventures in an overall positive way.
Saying blindly that she should get better instruction (and then 'all will be well'?) is saying here initial instruction was sub standard. Though this one has several of the signs of that being the case, it is not for me to judge in a public forum.
And neither for you.


hexadecimal

Dec 16, 2005, 2:04 AM
Post #149 of 216 (1741 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I see what you mean, and I'm not in any way attempting to insult or discredit your point of view... not that I'd have any way of doing so even if I was, considering the fact that I haven't even been around long enough to begin to learn anything of this sport.

It is only my opinion based on what I've heard and what the girl supposedly said, that she received poor instruction and needs to start over again with proper instruction to hopefully replace that.


skydivedon  (D 25331)

Dec 16, 2005, 6:56 AM
Post #150 of 216 (1681 views)
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Re: [Superfletch] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Fletch,
I'll be out in the spring back at it heavy again. Starting a new company is a lot of work and it takes a lot of time, but we're doing well.

As everyone has said in response to my post this was purely an accident that a student handled in the best way that she knew how at the time it happened. The questions I raised are not opinions or in any way accusations as to what did or did not cause the problem. They are devil's advocate questions that should be raised, analyzed and answered. If all of that was done and the findings were that it was an unfortunate accident, then so be it.

I still have a problem with why the reserve was screwed up when it opened. And, before anybody brings it up, I am NOT faulting the reserve packer, but only saying that the real problem with that reserve needs to be identified so that it can be communicated in a learning fashion to ALL reserve packers so they can be aware of it.

As for the actions (media contacts and coverage) after the accident, it is sad that the news stations, talk shows and the like are latching on to and sensationalizing an accident and a sport that's generally safer than driving to the airport. But, we should not be surprised because the media is not interested in the 1,000's of safe landings that occur in this sport everyday. The Andy Warhol "15 min. of fame" seems to have grabbed an ordinary couple and launched them into the international spot light. None of us should be surprised by that, but we can still be sickened by it. The good thing that came of this attention (in the slydiving community anyway) is that we're all talking about it and trying to learn from it.

After the "fame" goes away, this girl will still have to live with the injuries and disfugurement and we can only hope that she has no further complications. I don't think this will really hurt the sport in the long term and at least she is saying that she is not terrified of the sport and spreading THAT message. She still wants to do it, which is some consolation to the negative spin that could have been put on it.


stevebabin  (D 17200)

Dec 16, 2005, 7:55 AM
Post #151 of 216 (2121 views)
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Re: [skydivedon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Don!
It's good to hear that you're doing so well!
I have to take issue with the following statement:
Quote:
and a sport that's generally safer than driving to the airport.
Skydiving is in no way, shape or form safer than driving. If you conduct a poll within our relatively small community, you would find a myriad of injuries, by many of the participants. I have had more friends than I can recall over my 20 years in the sport break femurs, or wind up with other serious injuries. Hell, 4 of the 5 years I went to Quincy I went to the Blessing Memorial Hospital to care for injured friends.
You're not the first skydiver to use the "safer than driving" analogy, and I cringe every time it is used. This is skydiving, not bowling. People can and do get seriously injured all the time.
End of rant, sorry if it was a bit much. Again, it's good to hear from you.
Blue Skies....(you know the rest.)
Steve


skydivedon  (D 25331)

Dec 16, 2005, 8:08 AM
Post #152 of 216 (2112 views)
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Re: [stevebabin] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Steve,
Hope all is well with you and yours during this holiday season. No problem with the issue you raised. It was merely a way of saying that it's a lot safer sport these days than the media makes it out to be. It most certainly is a dangerous sport that needs good instruction and a person with a good head on their shoulders to participate in safely.

Oh, and drive crazily, there are a lot of careful people out there... take care!


scottmyers

Dec 16, 2005, 9:26 AM
Post #153 of 216 (2082 views)
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Re:student accident in Arkansas [In reply to] Can't Post

Ya know, first up. I have jumped before and got good training for a tandem jump at Skydive Texas. Secondly, ya gotta hand it to the media for doing their part in "sensationalizing" this story. I didn't know "the story behind the story" until reading this thread.

Lastly, I just wished someone else like say an "Inside Edition" or "A Current Affair"-type show would expose this whole story from beginning to end...and that THE WHOLE ENTIRE TRUTH would be told, not what the nation needs to be told! Period.

There.....finished with my thoughts. I'll go back lurking and surfing the Internet. Blue Skies to one and all!

Scott


Premier Remster  (C License)

Dec 16, 2005, 10:32 AM
Post #154 of 216 (2053 views)
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Re: [skydivedon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I still have a problem with why the reserve was screwed up when it opened.

Then you should question if you want to continue skydiving. Having a reserve repacked every 180, 120 or every week par a rigger does not garrantee it will work.

It may open with a small, correctable issue (and this may have been the case, but since the sudent never pumped the brakes as we are though in FJC for a slidder that wont come down) we 'll never know.

It may open with a lineover you may have to ride to the ground. It may just plain not open at all.

If you havent read all the posts about this accident, you may have missed that the equipment was inspected and nothing wrong with the reserve was found.


skydivedon  (D 25331)

Dec 16, 2005, 11:12 AM
Post #155 of 216 (2029 views)
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Re: [Remster] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

No question that there are no guarantees and I fully accept the risk of skydiving and take that risk freely and have great fun doing it. I read all the posts and understand that there was nothing "wrong" with the equipment. When I say I have a "problem" with it I am saying that something caused it and I'd like to know what it was. I don't like unanswered questions with anything in life, that does not mean that I should discontinue doing anything. I want to know what casued the problem so I, and everyone else, can learn from it. That's what this forum is all about - learning from the incidents that are discussed.

Given that, can anyone who posted earlier, has inspected the equipment and has not posted or who has analyzed the video tell any of us what actually caused that reserve slider to hang-up? If we don't know, that's fine, but I'm very curious.


SkiD_PL8  (A License)

Dec 16, 2005, 5:29 PM
Post #156 of 216 (1945 views)
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Re: [skydivedon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

The answers to your questions have allready been posted. Neither the FAA or anyone who inspected the gear could determine the reason for the slider hang up. There was a kink in one line but the master rigger that investigated said that even if it had been a tension knot it would not have been enough to hang up the slider.


likearock  (D 24640)

Dec 16, 2005, 6:17 PM
Post #157 of 216 (1933 views)
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Re: [Remster] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
It was indeed a 190 crammed into a a Reflex sized for a 135. And Chris, if you're thinking of the one that is a Refelx in a gawd-awful shade of pink, it's that one.

The 190 crammed into a smaller container doesnt bother me as much as what size reserve was in there. You can fit a much larger main in the main tray (I wouldnt recommend it, and it would be one ugly pack job) but that part doesnt scare me too much. Its the reserve...

Does some one KNOW what was the reserve?

I agree that that's the single most glaring piece of missing information here. And a very important one. I'm beginning to wonder if we'll have to wait for the Parachutist report to find out.


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 16, 2005, 6:39 PM
Post #158 of 216 (1922 views)
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Re: [likearock] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

IF .......someone would give us the model # we could size what reserve canopies would fit that container and then tell what the wingloading was.

IOW like a J-3 or a W-10 etc.......


(This post was edited by NelKel on Dec 16, 2005, 7:41 PM)


caico.katie

Dec 16, 2005, 7:36 PM
Post #159 of 216 (1911 views)
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Re: [heftee] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Well guys and gals, I told my sister a little of what was being said here thinking maybe it would make a positive difference somehow, somewhere, someday...
this is the letter I got back from her:

Dear Kathy,

There is such a thing as an accident, which by definition means "not intentional: a mishap". In our world of blamming and law suits Shayna has chosen to take responsibilty for her own actions. How refreshing!

As long as there are gossips there will be gossip. It used to be old ladies in beauty shops with nothing better to do. Now it is faceless keyborders on the internet with nothing better to do. And all this is simply the opinions of people who must themselves be infalable, perfect individuals? Their babble does not change what happened and they will soon move on to analyse and discuss someone else's life circumstances. Our society is great at pointing a finger of blame and "Monday morning quaterbacking" after the fact.

Shayna was asked to tell her story. That is what she has done.

If there is anyone out there that has not done anything foolish in their lives then they have probably had a pretty dull existance. Most of the time we have little or no reprecussions and live to tell our children of the silly things we did. Many times it is young people drinking and driving that not only take themselves out but others as well.

Shayna made the dive, she got hurt, she lived and we are thankful. She has granted all these interviews and turned down dozens for every one she has done. People are interested. So many just find the story facinating. She has recieved no monetary compensation and most of the general public is looking at the big picture. The one of her miraculous survival of what could have been a fatal accident.
And like Mom always taught us, "sticks and stones (or in Shayna's case asphalt) may break our bones but words may never hurt me (us)".

Please copy and paste this to any of those sites full of people with nothing better to do than look for anything ugly or negative to say about this accident, Shayna or Rick. What I see is that my only daughter is alive and therefore I must be thankful.

I will continue to my blessings.

Love,
Rebecca (Shayna's mom)
- Show quoted text -

My addition to this: My mom was so wrong --WORDS CAN HURT.

I just felt like that should be added.

By posting this I am not agreeing with what my sister says, I am just posting it because she asked me to. Unimpressed


(This post was edited by caico.katie on Dec 16, 2005, 7:40 PM)


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 16, 2005, 8:05 PM
Post #160 of 216 (1894 views)
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Re: [caico.katie] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

She is right nothing will change the outcome of this incident, but it is really sad that with all the education out there including these fourms that her Instructor will probably continue his carrer, and probably hurt someone else because of some mother was bilnded by her own ignorance to stop him. Skydivers regulate skydivers, the FAA gives us that because we have the USPA who governs us. According to reports published in this fourm her instructor broke a few rules, that chain of events we always talk about...which lead up to this incident.

It realy makes me wonder if she would have been killed would her mother still feel the same way....lucky she is still alive, or would she be looking to place blame for neglagence. To any receint Instructor out there and perticulary to all CCD we all know that we are responsibal for the safty of our students. Beyond waivers, beyond DZO's or S&TA's We all know that we can be held personaly responsably when we endanger our syudents. If we look the othrer way in this incident then we are no better that the culpert. This student didn't know better, she trusted her Instructor as all students do, and if we do not hold ourself to higher standards, then we are no better that this guy who HAD TO KNOW HE WAS BREAKING THE RULES. The same rules we govern ourselves with. I try to behave in a professional manner when dealng with students/clients. I know there is a segment of our population that dosn't care about that, this is an example of what can happen and I hope we all take note,
The attitude that if it dosn't kill you makes you stronger is hype in this situation, if we do not take care of our students then we risk the future of our sport.

end rant....... Mad


Michele  (B 26874)

Dec 16, 2005, 8:25 PM
Post #161 of 216 (1898 views)
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Re: [caico.katie] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Katie, can you please forward this note to Rebecca? And also realize that this will be my only contribution to this thread. Thanks! (And the best wishes at the bottom include you).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Rebecca:

I'm one of those "gossiping", "nothing better to do" people on the site where the accident is being discussed. Realizing, and respecting, that your daughter has survived a horrific accident, I say "thank God."

I also thank God for the lessons being learned - and relearned - here, not just in my personal case, but others that are expanding their knowledge base because of Shayna's accident.

We are learning - and relearning:

- that instructors who date their students tend to place them at higher risk than they otherwise would be;
-that if one dropzone doesn't let a student jump, likely there is a good reason for it;
-that wingloading - or the ratio of fabric to body weight - is still a very important consideration, regardless of what level you're at;
-that brakes fire and can turn into a nasty mess fairly quickly if proper action is not taken;
-that reserves can and will malfunction;
-that learning more and more and more about how to fly a canopy is what will let someone survive to fly another day;
-that not quitting might change the outcome;
-that listening to what is being shouted and/or heard in the ear via the radio might just save our lives;
and
-skydiving is a small, compartmentalized community that can often be harsh, direct, and loud, but will always disect and learn from those mistakes of people who've gone before.

I am so very thankful that Shayna lived through it. I am aghast that her instructor (37 years old) didn't know better than to sneak her off to another DZ when the original one said "no." His lack of common sense is astounding, and his callous disregard for your daughter's life has left me even more thankful that those instructors at my DZ are professional, kind, and caring.

I had a cutaway on my third jump. I can completely understand the confusion and the terror which can encroach upon someone when they're suddenly fighting for their life...and I too had a bit of a deal made from my cutaway story. It's not unexpected, especially since Shayna found she was pregnant while in hospital. It's indeed a blessing that she and her child are fine...

The upset that you're hearing about, Rebecca, is because we are all so angry that this happened in the first place. We are also angry that her boyfriend sits there and allows her to say things which damage our sport. Bad press is bad press. Stupidity is stupidity. I don't believe that Shayna has gone out and tried to get the attention...and indeed, as with any 21 year old, is reveling in it to some extent. That is normal. Her boyfriend's acts, behavior, and response is not.

But when the attention dies down, and it will, Shayna will face some hard truths. Not the least of which is that her boyfriend has allowed her to paint such a horrid picture of skydiving to the general public. I can't fault Shayna; she doesn't know any better, being so young and a student. Another truth is that if she continues to skydive, she will need a lot of instruction from professional, competent people before she will be allowed in the air again. And the last truth is that some people shouldn't be teachers of a sport in which you can do everything right and still die.

My very best to you, Shayna, your grandchild, and your family. I hope this Christmas season is the best, most blessed one you experience; it could've been very very different had Shayna not lived.

Best to you,
Michele


VisionAir  (D 23627)

Dec 18, 2005, 2:34 PM
Post #162 of 216 (1762 views)
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Re: [likearock] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
It was indeed a 190 crammed into a a Reflex sized for a 135. And Chris, if you're thinking of the one that is a Refelx in a gawd-awful shade of pink, it's that one.

The 190 crammed into a smaller container doesnt bother me as much as what size reserve was in there. You can fit a much larger main in the main tray (I wouldnt recommend it, and it would be one ugly pack job) but that part doesnt scare me too much. Its the reserve...

Does some one KNOW what was the reserve?

I agree that that's the single most glaring piece of missing information here. And a very important one. I'm beginning to wonder if we'll have to wait for the Parachutist report to find out.

I just got off the phone with Rick and he has asked me to make a post. Because he and Shayna are on this whirlwind tour they have been unable to keep up with the four threads about her accident. I described to him what appears to me to be the biggest issues on peoples minds here.
1. Why hasn't the instructor spoke up with his statement? As stated above they've been a little busy. Plus he does not desire to get in any kind of pissing match, and end up posting something hot-headed which he later regrets. He acknowledges his temperment and that this has happened before on my local area members only skydiving forum, and he doesn't want a repeat of that. I suggested to him, that to save his reputation, he should make one simple, factual, well thought out statement to put the general skydiving public's minds to rest by hearing the facts straight from the horse's mouth. He plans to do this as soon as he can.
2. What size was the reserve? According to Rick AND Shayna it was a Tempo 170. So that would mean the rig was a Reflex designed for a 135 main with a Tempo 170 reserve, but a SabreII 190 replaced the main. The oversized main is not an issue in the accident since it opened correctly and flew before the self-induced "malfunction".
3. Why are they on this media tour essentially giving the sport a black eye? I explained to him that alot of people are upset over their idea that an accident in skydiving discussed in the media is thought of as bad press. Even though that is not their intentions, and they are trying to bill this as a survival story, it is still thought of as bad press to those that are cold hearted and don't understand the circumstances. As stated earlier by Katie (Shayna's aunt), and now to me by Rick, they are not making profit on this other then free trips to the shows filming locations. Their main prupose for this media tour is to put the word out of Shayna's medical fund that has been set up to cover the many bills.
He has also requested that people keep their opinions to themselves....i.e. If it was me then I would have blah blah blah. Discussion about facts that are pertinate to training are understandable, but to just throw out slander is not necessary.

Personally I did not want to get involved in this gossip machine other then the one post I had already made about their picture, but he asked me to do this so I did.


tso-d_chris

Dec 19, 2005, 9:15 AM
Post #163 of 216 (1664 views)
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In reply to:
According to Rick AND Shayna it was a Tempo 170.

That is too small a reserve for an AFF student of Shayna's size. Tempos are smaller than their advertised size, IIRC. Tempos are smaller than a PD (or other reserve measured with PD's method) of the same advertised size. See riggerrob's post below.

It is disheartening to hear of rated instructors with such disregard for student safety.


(This post was edited by tso-d_chris on Dec 19, 2005, 10:22 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 19, 2005, 10:02 AM
Post #164 of 216 (1641 views)
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That is too small a reserve for an AFF student of Shayna's size. Tempos are smaller than their advertised size, IIRC.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hee!
Hee!
Depends upon which measuring method you use.
Tempos and Swifts are measured by the old PIA method: chord = tail to top leading edge, with span measured slightly aft of the top leading edge.

Performance Designs led the way with another measuring method which still measures chord from the tail to the top leading edge, but measures span across the bottom skin.
ergo: PD canopies tend to be 10% BIGGER than their published numbers.
Hint: canopy "sizes" are written by marketing managers more often than they are written by engineers.

To further confuse the issue, some manufacturers have changed their measuring methods part-way through production.
For example: in 2001 Icarus announced that were changing from PIA to PD canopy measuring methods.
Similarly, when PISA was absorbed by Aerodyne, they changed from PIA to PD measuring methods, so that an old Tempo 150 is actually 10% smaller than a new Smart 150.

But I do agree with your opinon that Tempos 170s are too small for students. The only way one of our students will wear a Tempo 170s is if she is
A: petite
B: has demonstrated a bunch of good landings on larger canopies, and
C: she has almost graduated form our PFF program.


tso-d_chris

Dec 19, 2005, 10:25 AM
Post #165 of 216 (1628 views)
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In reply to:
Depends upon which measuring method you use.
Tempos and Swifts are measured by the old PIA method: chord = tail to top leading edge, with span measured slightly aft of the top leading edge.

Thanks for offering a better explanation.


VisionAir  (D 23627)

Dec 19, 2005, 11:26 AM
Post #166 of 216 (1606 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
According to Rick AND Shayna it was a Tempo 170.

That is too small a reserve for an AFF student of Shayna's size. Tempos are smaller than their advertised size, IIRC. Tempos are smaller than a PD (or other reserve measured with PD's method) of the same advertised size. See riggerrob's post below.

It is disheartening to hear of rated instructors with such disregard for student safety.

Not argueing your point but only offering a little more info for better clarification. It was also stated to me in the phone conversation that Shayna weighed 120#. Which would put her reserve w/l at .79 - .82.


tso-d_chris

Dec 19, 2005, 12:00 PM
Post #167 of 216 (1589 views)
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In reply to:
Not argueing your point but only offering a little more info for better clarification. It was also stated to me in the phone conversation that Shayna weighed 120#. Which would put her reserve w/l at .79 - .82.

120 + 30 lbs for gear = 150lbs ==> ~.9:1 wingloading.

Too high for an AFF student IMO. Things are alreaady going bad when the reserve ripcord is pulled. No need to have a reserve smaller than the main.


VisionAir  (D 23627)

Dec 19, 2005, 1:44 PM
Post #168 of 216 (1558 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Not argueing your point but only offering a little more info for better clarification. It was also stated to me in the phone conversation that Shayna weighed 120#. Which would put her reserve w/l at .79 - .82.

120 + 30 lbs for gear = 150lbs ==> ~.9:1 wingloading.

Too high for an AFF student IMO. Things are alreaady going bad when the reserve ripcord is pulled. No need to have a reserve smaller than the main.

I was figuring 15-20 lbs for gear as it wasn't a typical student rig.


toronto_bill  (C 3085)

Dec 19, 2005, 2:06 PM
Post #169 of 216 (1552 views)
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Hey Rob,

That was great information. This email is to assure you that someone learned something. Rare for Shayna threads anyway.

I 'assumed' that PISA was the standard. What advantage exactly do the marketers gain by their re-sizing? Sell more canopies I guess but why or how?


00Billy
PST-Baldwin
IA,SSI,TI,C2


tso-d_chris

Dec 19, 2005, 2:11 PM
Post #170 of 216 (1550 views)
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In reply to:
I was figuring 15-20 lbs for gear as it wasn't a typical student rig.

~7 lbs per canopy, ~10lbs for the container, 1 lb for the AAD, plus helmet, goggles, altimeter and jumpsuit is about 30 lbs or so. At least that is the logic behind my 30 lbs. of equipment. Certainly not exact.


LawnDart21  (D License)

Dec 20, 2005, 6:11 AM
Post #171 of 216 (1464 views)
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I've stayed out of this whole series of threads because I didnt want to get involved in an arguement that I didnt have all the facts about. (I still may not have all the facts, but I have to make a comment).

That said, seeing as you are a direct line to the instructor. I have a question for you, one I am sure is fueling alot of angst on this board. All of the news reports that have sensationalized this incident have stated something to the effect that a skydiver survived a "double malfunction". More specifically, that 1st her main malfunctioned and second, her reserve malfunctioned. What I have read on these threads has led me to conclude that her main did not malfunction, rather it reacted exactly as it should have with one break unstowed. The point, her main was a very correctible pilot induced problem. Her main didnt malfunction, she did. It was pilot error, not gear error that caused her main to "malfunction", and it was correctible. That one simple facet of mistruth being sensationalized all over the media, that she survived a "double malfunction", when in truth, she caused the 1st one herself and it was correctible, gives the sport a black eye.

So I would say, I think alot of us would feel better about how this story is being played out in the media, if it contained some degree of truth to the main malfunction. It was pilot (error) induced, in all likelyhood due to less than adequate training from her instructor.

Lastly, I would love for one of the feel good reporters to ask "So, I see you live in Georgia, what made you decide to drive all the way to Alabama to jump that day?" I would love to see that question answered HONESTLY on national television: "We were not allowed to jump together at our local dropzone becuase student/instructor dating is frowned upon becuase it can lead to less than complete training methods, but we didnt like hearing we couldnt do what we wanted to do, so we drove to another DZ, far enough away from our local one so as not to get caught, and did what we were told we couldnt do at our own dz, and this horrible accident was a direct result of that incompetence."

If I heard either of those tidbits, the main didnt actually malfunction, and that they were forbidden to jump together at their local DZ, ie, THE TRUTH, then I think, people wouldnt be so up in arms over this incident.


psyco_packer

Dec 20, 2005, 8:05 AM
Post #172 of 216 (1428 views)
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Post by pilotdave:
Yeah, that just doesn't sound right to me. Mine was also designed for a 135 main (I think... a 135 fits perfectly). I barely squeezed an F111 150 main into it. A sabre2 190 wouldn't even come close to fitting in mine. Even with a 150, mine clearly looked overstuffed. I'd often have dbag corners hanging out on the sides of the main flap. Can't imagine what it would have looked like with a ZP 190. Mine was especially bad because the dbag was oversized, but still, I can't see a 190 going into a reflex made for a 135.


I packed the main twice that day and a 190 will fit inside a Reflex sized for a 135.It's a tight fit, but it will.


SkiD_PL8  (A License)

Dec 20, 2005, 9:09 AM
Post #173 of 216 (1398 views)
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I hear that they may be on letterman tonight if anyone is interested.


sitflybaseboy  (C 15139)

Dec 20, 2005, 9:10 AM
Post #174 of 216 (1398 views)
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In reply to:
Hi Don!
It's good to hear that you're doing so well!
I have to take issue with the following statement:
Quote:
and a sport that's generally safer than driving to the airport.
Skydiving is in no way, shape or form safer than driving.

You're not the first skydiver to use the "safer than driving" analogy, and I cringe every time it is used. This is skydiving, not bowling. People can and do get seriously injured all the time.
End of rant, sorry if it was a bit much. Again, it's good to hear from you.
Blue Skies....(you know the rest.)
Steve

It really depends on whose driving and whose skydiving!
321CYA
Sitflybaseboy


(This post was edited by sitflybaseboy on Dec 20, 2005, 9:33 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 20, 2005, 9:49 AM
Post #175 of 216 (1377 views)
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>The oversized main is not an issue in the accident since it opened
>correctly and flew before the self-induced "malfunction".

I once stuffed a huge F111 canopy into my Reflex for a demo. It was ugly as sin, but I figured it only had to stay closed for a few seconds (10 second delay) and then it would be open anyway.

So I jumped, opened, had a more or less normal opening, then looked up to see the lower brakelines tied around each other. I had about 15 seconds of worry (pulling on them, pushing the risers together) before they cleared. In retrospect, since the Reflex's riser covers were so stretched out that they couldn't protect the risers, the brake lines/toggles were exposed to the wind and thus started flopping around; the knot probably happened before I even deployed. (Imagine what would have happened had I had a total . . .)

So large canopies in small containers _can_ lead to brake problems. (I have no idea whether this happened in this case of course.)


VisionAir  (D 23627)

Dec 20, 2005, 10:02 AM
Post #176 of 216 (1704 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That said, seeing as you are a direct line to the instructor. I have a question for you, one I am sure is fueling alot of angst on this board. All of the news reports that have sensationalized this incident have stated something to the effect that a skydiver survived a "double malfunction". More specifically, that 1st her main malfunctioned and second, her reserve malfunctioned. What I have read on these threads has led me to conclude that her main did not malfunction, rather it reacted exactly as it should have with one break unstowed. The point, her main was a very correctible pilot induced problem. Her main didnt malfunction, she did. It was pilot error, not gear error that caused her main to "malfunction", and it was correctible. That one simple facet of mistruth being sensationalized all over the media, that she survived a "double malfunction", when in truth, she caused the 1st one herself and it was correctible, gives the sport a black eye.

So I would say, I think alot of us would feel better about how this story is being played out in the media, if it contained some degree of truth to the main malfunction. It was pilot (error) induced, in all likelyhood due to less than adequate training from her instructor.

Lastly, I would love for one of the feel good reporters to ask "So, I see you live in Georgia, what made you decide to drive all the way to Alabama to jump that day?" I would love to see that question answered HONESTLY on national television: "We were not allowed to jump together at our local dropzone becuase student/instructor dating is frowned upon becuase it can lead to less than complete training methods, but we didnt like hearing we couldnt do what we wanted to do, so we drove to another DZ, far enough away from our local one so as not to get caught, and did what we were told we couldnt do at our own dz, and this horrible accident was a direct result of that incompetence."

If I heard either of those tidbits, the main didnt actually malfunction, and that they were forbidden to jump together at their local DZ, ie, THE TRUTH, then I think, people wouldnt be so up in arms over this incident.

Ok first about the main "malfunction". It was a pilot error induced malfunction. I also, wish they would mention that it was a correctable malfunction, but instead she chose to cut it away due to her "freaking out". Yes, it is a direct quote from Rick that Shayna says she "freaked out"....plain and simple. She understands in hind-sight what she should have done and kicks herself for it.

As far as it being Rick's lack of instruction, here's a new tidbit of information to derail that gossip. Rick did not teach her the FJC. It was a different instructor that taught her this course at their home dz. She was throughly shown all EPs from a hanging harness by this other instructor (who will remain nameless) that has taught thousands of FJCs. So this is a non-issue.

The reserve also malfunctioned and nobody knows, or will know why. The FAA has cleared the rigger (who will also remain nameless) of any negligence, and rightly so. While this is also a non-issue and not the cause of the incident, it is the effect or the reason for the freak accident. Yes a FREAK ACCIDENT!!! That's all.

Now about them coming to my home dz (in AR) instead staying at their own (in MO)....I don't know their exact reason other then the gossip I've read here, but I do know it wasn't that they "drove to another DZ, far enough away from our local one so as not to get caught". The dz in Siloam is the next closest dz to theirs and we all visit each others dz several times a year. Yes they may have come because they did want to jump together, but it wasn't a matter of "getting caught". This is also a non-issue.

If your looking for someone to blame over all this, Shayna says "blame me". This whole incident boils down to lack of experience, not lack of instruction. In hind sight it's easy for all of us to know what we would have done if it was us, and she now knows what she should do if it happens again. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right?


(This post was edited by VisionAir on Dec 20, 2005, 10:25 AM)


VisionAir  (D 23627)

Dec 20, 2005, 10:19 AM
Post #177 of 216 (1695 views)
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In reply to:
(I have no idea whether this happened in this case of course.)

Seeing as the canopy opened and flew fine before the brake was accidentally released this would not be the case. This rig was also jumped by Rick just before Shayna's jump on it and it opened and flew fine.


LawnDart21  (D License)

Dec 20, 2005, 11:44 AM
Post #178 of 216 (1676 views)
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Quote:
It was a pilot error induced

CNN, GMA and every othr media outlet hasn't broadcast that. They broadcast "main gear malfunction", that's the big issue.

Quote:
Rick did not teach her the FJC

Irregardless of who taught her FJC, when Rick decided to take her an AFF jump, he assumed full responsibility for her and for her knowledge of emergency procedures. All your statement does is pass the buck and dodge the responsibility, which ultimately lies with the instructor who took her on that jump.

Quote:
Yes they may have come because they did want to jump together

If they were not allowed to jump together at their home DZ, for whatever the reason, dating or otherwise, you'd like to think that as an AFF rated instructor that he would have had the sensibility to accept a very reasonable and common restriction between dating instructor/student jumps.

Quote:
If your looking for someone to blame over all this, Shayna says "blame me".

I'm not blaming anyone. But if I were, Shayna is one of the last people I would blame for the incident. As a student she placed her trust in her instructor, and in this case, her instructor mishandled her trust and she almost died as a result of it.

It's not about blame, its about truth in the media and the appropriate person accepting responsibility for jeapardizing the life of a student simply becuase he didnt like hearing what he was told (that he couldnt jump with her at his DZ).

Quote:
This whole incident boils down to lack of experience, not lack of instruction.

There are many on here, myself included that would disagree with that statement. It was a lack of instruction. How to handle a released break on one side is not a "seasoned jumpers" only knowledge. If a first jump student doesnt know that releasing the other toggle will solve that problem, I would question the FJC they were in.

In the end, I'm just happy she is alive and well with a baby on the way. Nobody is perfect, life goes on. It'd just be a bit easier to swallow all this if the proper person (the instructor) bore the responisbility for the incident, not the student (Shayna) who didnt know any better.

Blue skies, Tom


stevebabin  (D 17200)

Dec 20, 2005, 11:56 AM
Post #179 of 216 (1666 views)
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Quote:
It really depends on whose driving and whose skydiving!
OK....How's your ankle?Wink


theloadarranger

Dec 20, 2005, 12:10 PM
Post #180 of 216 (1659 views)
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Hello all,

I am the DZO at Skyranch in Siloam Springs. Rick was attending a JCC/ICC that we were hosting. At the completion of that he and Shayna manifested to make a jump. Her rig was in date, TSO'd and had the proper equipment for a student jump. Rick had the appropriate license to conduct the jump.

Many mistakes were made that day, the first being me being unaware that Rick was not permitted to jump with her at their home dz. I also was not aware that they were dating. Had I known either of these facts, the jump would not have taken place. There were at least 3 other aff instructors available that day. Several people who were aware of the situation didn't take the time or the thought to make me aware of it.

As mentioned before (as I have been flamed by quite a few jumpers) This was not my student, my equipment, my instructor or instructional program, and just for shits&grins, it damn sure isn't my baby.

After in accident, the equipment was sent to FSDO in Little Rock and an incident report filed with FAA and USPA. The FAA reviewed video tape. The investigation was inconclusive and cleared the rigger of any wrongdoing in which I totally agree. Her main parachute had one toggle still stowed even after the cut-away. There was evidence of a tension knot at the cascades on her reserve which would have caused the slider up spin.

Upon review of the video and taking statements from all who witnessed the jump it appears that no effort was made to correct the toggle situation on the main before cutaway. The reserve opened with a slider up spin but IMHO it could have been corrected by the jumper (at least to a point where the canopy was flying in either a slow turn or straight), again that is my opinion. It appears that no action was taken to correct the problem.

Another mistake on my part was allowing the video to be given back to Rick. In the future, I will have on the assumption of risk agreement that any and all photos, video, etc. are the property of the dz should the dz request it.

IMHO there were many mistakes made by myself, Rick and Shayna. Although they have made decisions that perhaps, you or I would not have made concerning the media, they are their decisions and our conjecture about them is exactly that. Shayna is a lovely young girl and dealing with her situation as best as she can. We can all be thankful but by the grace of God go I.

Be thankful, review your procedures and learn from this.

Wolf Grulkey, DZO
Skydive Skyranch
dzo@skyranch.com


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 20, 2005, 12:15 PM
Post #181 of 216 (1655 views)
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Re: [LawnDart21] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

There are many on here, myself included that would disagree with that statement. It was a lack of instruction. How to handle a released break on one side is not a "seasoned jumpers" only knowledge. If a first jump student doesnt know that releasing the other toggle will solve that problem, I would question the FJC they were in<<<<<<<<<<<
---------------------------------------------------------
Example of a FJC test question on our local test:

You look up and see (X) you realize this is not a malfunction if cleared by your hard deck. How do you fix this problem?

(X) could be linetwist, break released, etc..


(This post was edited by NelKel on Dec 20, 2005, 12:17 PM)


jlmiracle  (D License)

Dec 20, 2005, 12:22 PM
Post #182 of 216 (1645 views)
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Re: [NelKel] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are many on here, myself included that would disagree with that statement. It was a lack of instruction. How to handle a released break on one side is not a "seasoned jumpers" only knowledge. If a first jump student doesnt know that releasing the other toggle will solve that problem, I would question the FJC they were in<<<<<<<<<<<
---------------------------------------------------------
Example of a FJC test question on our local test:

You look up and see (X) you realize this is not a malfunction if cleared by your hard deck. How do you fix this problem?

(X) could be linetwist, break released, etc..

Did she answer correctly? I'm trying to figure out this post.

J


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 20, 2005, 12:38 PM
Post #183 of 216 (1621 views)
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Re: [jlmiracle] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Did she answer correctly?<<<<<<<<<

Well.......I can't be 100% sure but if I were to take a guess, I would say judging by the outcome of her accident "no".


BRYANGOESBOOM

Dec 20, 2005, 12:45 PM
Post #184 of 216 (1611 views)
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Re: [theloadarranger] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Why was she allowed to make the jump with her own gear??? Do you have student gear?? I belive my home dz will not you jump anything other than student gear until you have your A


THIS IS NOT A FLAME


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Dec 20, 2005, 1:10 PM
Post #185 of 216 (1595 views)
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In reply to:
Why was she allowed to make the jump with her own gear??? Do you have student gear?? I belive my home dz will not you jump anything other than student gear until you have your A

That's not a requirement, esp if a visiting AFF-I brings a student. The gear does have to have an RSL and an AAD.
Many have a way for the reserve side AFF-I to release the PC - is that required for the 2 AFF-I jumps?


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 20, 2005, 1:22 PM
Post #186 of 216 (1586 views)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why was she allowed to make the jump with her own gear??? Do you have student gear?? I belive my home dz will not you jump anything other than student gear until you have your A

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's not a requirement, esp if a visiting AFF-I brings a student. The gear does have to have an RSL and an AAD.
Many have a way for the reserve side AFF-I to release the PC - is that required for the 2 AFF-I jumps? <<<<<<<<<<<<<

These must be the rules for your perticular DZ, or the DZ where the accident happened. Because the BSR's allow an Instructor to waiver the use of a student's RSL. That is the only way your statement could be factual.

Regardless the DZ would have to be an USPA-GM anyway. If the DZ is not a GM then it only has to follow the FAR's. I know severial DZ that have a policy to not allow students to jump unless they use the DZ's gear only, regardless of what rig the AFF-I brings for his student. It a liability issue for the DZ. I am quite surprise to hear that they were allowed to jump an outside rig for student training.


caico.katie

Dec 20, 2005, 1:39 PM
Post #187 of 216 (1571 views)
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They are not going to be on Letterman. I think they are headed back to Missouri today.

There is going to be some coverage of Shayna in the Kansas City Star with pictures of her before and after her accident. I was asked to send copies of her pictures to them anyway. I don't know when the story or pictures will be out.

Shayna gets a lot of guff from several family members, so any support she can get from people here I am sure would be greatly appreciated. She has supporting family too, but I think we all have at least one family member who constantly criticizes Frown.

She comes from a big family, so we all take turns, (with criticisms and support). Wink

----------------------------------------------------------


(This post was edited by caico.katie on Dec 20, 2005, 1:48 PM)


BRYANGOESBOOM

Dec 20, 2005, 1:48 PM
Post #188 of 216 (1559 views)
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What reason did the instructor give you for bringing in a outside aff student ???

What is your policy on this sort of thing do you call the students home dz to check and make sure she has passed such and such levels or do you just take the student and instructors word for it ???

Seems like you trusted the wrong ppl here
Its sad that your dz may suffer from this terrible accident. I know all of nothing about running a dz so feel free to tell me to STFU


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 20, 2005, 1:55 PM
Post #189 of 216 (1555 views)
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Re: [VisionAir] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>Seeing as the canopy opened and flew fine before the brake was
>accidentally released this would not be the case.

In my case the canopy opened and flew fine as well before I discovered the problem with the brakes. Had I just started yanking on things, I may have ended up with the same problem she had.

Again, I am not claiming this is what happened. What I am saying is:

-putting very oversized canopies into containers can (and has) caused problems, specifically with brake lines/toggles since they are unprotected

-sometimes this problem isn't even apparent until _after_ the canopy was open and flying.

All of which means it's a good idea to have a rig that fits its main, with riser covers that do a good job of protecting the toggles/brake lines.


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 20, 2005, 2:08 PM
Post #190 of 216 (1545 views)
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Re: [NelKel] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[T]he BSR's allow an Instructor to waiver the use of a student's RSL.

The RSL requirement can be waived on a case-by-case basis for a student cleared for self-supervised freefall, i.e. Categories F/G/H (what used to be called Level 8).

Shayna's dive has been described as "Level 1" (Category A?), so an RSL would have been required, not waiverable.

Mark


caico.katie

Dec 20, 2005, 3:14 PM
Post #191 of 216 (1522 views)
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Re: [mark] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm just curious, how common are these kinds of things, I mean with brake lines/toggles?

Also, do you know if more accidents happen to newer jumpers, than more experienced jumpers? (In general)

and

Whenever there has been an accident, do any of you worry more about your own jumps (in the days or weeks following the accident)?

--------------------------------------


BRYANGOESBOOM

Dec 20, 2005, 3:24 PM
Post #192 of 216 (1508 views)
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Re: [caico.katie] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

These break lines/toggles...........thingies are easy to clear .........i worry about malfunctions on every one of my jumps thats why i practice my ep's and try to learn as much as i can from my senior jumpers and friends.



not directed to you caico

r the questions i asked not a concern???
ex. the student jumping personal gear and what the policy was on this sort of thing
i have read thru all threads relating to this accident and these questions have yet to be asked
or did i miss something


forgive my grammer and spelling


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 20, 2005, 3:35 PM
Post #193 of 216 (1503 views)
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Re: [BRYANGOESBOOM] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
r the questions i asked not a concern???
ex. the student jumping personal gear and what the policy was on this sort of thing
i have read thru all threads relating to this accident and these questions have yet to be asked
or did i miss something

forgive my grammer and spelling

Some attention to grammar and spelling would make your post easier to read.

Read the student gear requirements in the USPA BSRs. Scroll down to 2-1.K.2. It doesn't matter who owns the gear, which is why no one has raised the ownership issue before.

Mark


BRYANGOESBOOM

Dec 20, 2005, 3:42 PM
Post #194 of 216 (1499 views)
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Re: [mark] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

What about checking in with the students home dz before you let them make a aff jump???


NelKel  (D 25024)

Dec 20, 2005, 3:54 PM
Post #195 of 216 (1495 views)
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Re: [mark] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I Agree, and thank you for clearing up that RSL thing, and where it fits in to student training. My eairlier post was intended to mean.

IMO....If I owned a DZ I would not let any student jump anything except the gear I owned for liability reasons. I'm taking the risk by letting her jump, it going to be on gear I know and maintain. And furthermore she would have had to have passed my FJC test before jumping at my fictious DZ and it would have been a student jump conducted by my staff! Smile that is all I ment.


(This post was edited by NelKel on Dec 20, 2005, 3:57 PM)


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 20, 2005, 4:51 PM
Post #196 of 216 (1481 views)
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Re: [BRYANGOESBOOM] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What about checking with the student's home dz before you let them make an AFF jump?

Would that have made a difference?

This was the student's 10th jump. The instructor was appropriately rated. The equipment was TSO'd and BSR-legal for a student. No one is alleging there was a problem with the freefall portion of the skydive. Calling the student's home dz might have resulted in finding out the Rick-Shayna relationship and assigning a different freefall accompanist, but it's hard to see how that would have changed the student's reaction to canopy problems.

Mark


BRYANGOESBOOM

Dec 20, 2005, 5:07 PM
Post #197 of 216 (1475 views)
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Re: [mark] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What about checking with the student's home dz before you let them make an AFF jump?

Would that have made a difference?

This was the student's 10th jump. The instructor was appropriately rated. The equipment was TSO'd and BSR-legal for a student. No one is alleging there was a problem with the freefall portion of the skydive. Calling the student's home dz might have resulted in finding out the Rick-Shayna relationship and assigning a different freefall accompanist, but it's hard to see how that would have changed the student's reaction to canopy problems.

Mark

This jump would have never happend
we could rule out that her instructor was to blame and all fault would land on the student

Seems to me that more ppl are upset with the instuctor than anyone else involved in the accident
Im saying a simple phone call to make sure this student had x amount of jumps


sitflybaseboy  (C 15139)

Dec 20, 2005, 5:20 PM
Post #198 of 216 (1471 views)
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Re: [stevebabin] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

60 %, but getting better everyday. Still a little swelling and stiffness. However, my injury did not occur on a skydive, it was a BASE jump. Tongue
321CYA
Sitf


(This post was edited by sitflybaseboy on Dec 20, 2005, 5:30 PM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Dec 20, 2005, 5:25 PM
Post #199 of 216 (1466 views)
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Re: [billvon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

All I'll say to that is just take a look at the very 1st few frames of the video that's been posted of Shayna being "interviewed" on her jump video itself ("what are you going to do...") standing in the hangar, geared up and getting ready before the jump, and tell me what you see. ...??


stevebabin  (D 17200)

Dec 20, 2005, 6:16 PM
Post #200 of 216 (1452 views)
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Re: [sitflybaseboy] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
my injury did not occur on a skydive, it was a BASE jump.
I know....It was just too easy a shot....
Fock you , BTW!Tongue


skydivermom  (C 36927)

Dec 20, 2005, 7:18 PM
Post #201 of 216 (1671 views)
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Re: [caico.katie] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all, I want to say I am glad Shayna is alive and recovering...and that her bundle is okay.

I am barely off student status, so I can't offer much except my very limited personal experience. I have had a premature brake release, a stuck slider and a couple of line twists (all on different jumps of course). I had heard repeatedly that they were quite common and simple to fix and I think that may be why I was able to stay calm and take care of them.

Blessings to Shayna, you and the rest of the family. Merry Christmas!


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Dec 20, 2005, 7:21 PM
Post #202 of 216 (1671 views)
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Re: [BRYANGOESBOOM] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why was she allowed to make the jump with her own gear??? Do you have student gear?? I belive my home dz will not you jump anything other than student gear until you have your A

THIS IS NOT A FLAME

We are not setup for AFF. Our gear is ripcord rather than BOC.

-Blind


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 20, 2005, 7:38 PM
Post #203 of 216 (1661 views)
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Re: [BlindBrick] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We are not set up for AFF. Our gear is ripcord rather than BOC.

It might be more correct to say you weren't set up for AFF for this particular student, given her previous training. It's okay to use ripcord-equipped rigs for AFF. I'd discourage switching back and forth between ripcord and BOC.

Shayna started with IAD/throwout (I think I read that somewhere in the first 8 pages of this thread, but someone else can go back to look), so sticking with BOC was a good move.

Mark


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Dec 20, 2005, 8:44 PM
Post #204 of 216 (1646 views)
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Re: [BRYANGOESBOOM] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Spend more time at the DZ and you'll see traveling students show up all the time. If you look at their logbook and its all in order with proper comments, signatures and no issues, its usually an indication that you just got a new student for a jump. It happens a few times a month at most DZ's and 99% of the time its normal. DZ's like Perris get it probally a few times a week, are they really going to call for each student that comes through the door?

If an experienced jumper brings out a student, expecially an instructor, in my experience and observations most DZ's look through the logbook, do some ground questions, make sure they are waivered and off they go. SSM did the same thing when I was there in 2002 at least a few times I observed.


caico.katie

Dec 20, 2005, 10:22 PM
Post #205 of 216 (1634 views)
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Re: [BRYANGOESBOOM] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I was just curious. I am not a jumper (or skydiver, I don't even know the proper term) but I have always thought it would be a fun thing to try.

Shayna is my neice, and when she said she was going to jump I thought that was great. I am just too much of a coward to try it.

So, I was just wondering how much risk there really is. When I said something to my sister-in-law about wanting to try it, she repleid, "Oh no Kathy, don't do it. I watched my best friend jump to his death." So you add Shayna to that, and I get a little more cowardly.

So my question wasn't specifically about Shayna's accidents, but accidents overall. It seems like you would have to be pretty sharp and really on the ball to do this sport safely -- while I do consider myself to be pretty sharp I do panic quickly, so I would probably have reacted very poorly in Shayna's situation.

I'm sorry to waste you guys and gals time. I know you are in here to learn about YOUR sport, and I shouldn't even be here. I just wanted to know more about it. I get way to involved in my kids lives, and the lives of my neices and nephews -- I'm just a real mother...

Kathy
aka Carico Katie


(This post was edited by caico.katie on Dec 20, 2005, 10:37 PM)


BRYANGOESBOOM

Dec 21, 2005, 4:17 AM
Post #206 of 216 (1604 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for reply Phree
I have seen students show up from other dz's and a phone call be made to their home dz

I went to a boogie just off of student status a phone call was made to my home dz to cross check jump #'s. I went to this boogie with a few senior jumpers one aff instructor and the girl that worked manifest at the time. A phone call was still made
Picking up the phone to get a lil student history doesnt seem like that much work.

I dont pretend to know how to run a dz this is just what i have experienced


mailin  (A 46883)

Dec 21, 2005, 6:47 AM
Post #207 of 216 (1581 views)
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Re: [caico.katie] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It seems like you would have to be pretty sharp and really on the ball to do this sport safely -- while I do consider myself to be pretty sharp I do panic quickly, so I would probably have reacted very poorly in Shayna's situation.

That's what it comes down to - being clear headed enough to understand. The only way to do that is to have adequate/proper training the whole way through. This is best done at dropzones that teach alot of students (some of the big ones in CA, AZ and FL are best for this), as they have lots of very experienced instructors who can handle lots of different types of students. Now I'm not saying that smaller dropzones are bad (my home DZ is small but has many instructors with more than 20 yrs. experience, I really wanted to do my training there but ended up in FL instead), its just that the bigger dropzones that have more students are typically more well equipped.

Had this been the case for your neice she would have jumped appropriate gear, had additional training and been better equipped to handle her canopy problems.

I hope if she decides to jump again that she does a few things: 1. get health insurance, this should be a NO BRAINER! 2. gets life insurance that covers her death in the event of a skydiving accident (many do not), as she has a child to think of now 3. Get more than adequate training at a dropzone that does many AFF courses and does not allow her 'boy friend' to teach her again, and 4. uses appropriate gear for her size (not just the minimum, as she was using, but something HUGE and forgiving that will give her the approrpriate reaction time a student needs).

If you do decide to try the sport kathy, start with a tandem and realize that mistakes do happen. You can do everything right on a skydive (jump the right gear, react to problems the right way, do EVERYTHING correctly) and still have an accident like Shayna's or worse. For the number of jumps made by skydivers in the US in a given year we have few reported fatalities, but many smaller injuries such as broken bones are rarely reported. Despite what someone may tell you it is not safer to skydive than to drive. The amount of time spent doing skydives in a year are such a small percentage of the time compared to that of a typical person spends in the car.

Jen


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Dec 21, 2005, 10:16 AM
Post #208 of 216 (1528 views)
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Re: [mailin] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Despite what someone may tell you it is not safer to skydive than to drive. The amount of time spent doing skydives in a year are such a small percentage of the time compared to that of a typical person spends in the car.

But doing a single tandem jump is safer than driving that year.

Kathy, each year a couple hundred thousand do a tandem jump. In a very good stretch at the beginning of the decade, there was one fatality in 3 years. But this year there were two passengers that died when the canopy collapsed near the ground due to turbulence.

If you want to just try it once to see how it feels, the odds should be better than 1 in 100,000 for death, somewhat higher for leg injuries on rougher landings.
Driving is 1:6500 for the year for all America. For active skydivers, 1:1000 for the year.

You have to decide for yourself if this optional risk is worth it.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 21, 2005, 10:35 AM
Post #209 of 216 (1524 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>But doing a single tandem jump is safer than driving that year.

But it is NOT safer than driving to the drop zone. You can play with stats all you want, but the oft-repeated saying that the skydive is safer than the drive to the DZ just isn't true (unless, of course, you drink a lot before driving home!)


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Dec 21, 2005, 4:07 PM
Post #210 of 216 (1472 views)
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Re: [billvon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>But doing a single tandem jump is safer than driving that year.

But it is NOT safer than driving to the drop zone. You can play with stats all you want, but the oft-repeated saying that the skydive is safer than the drive to the DZ just isn't true (unless, of course, you drink a lot before driving home!)

Yes, that is correct. As is the second part about the dangers of driving drunk.

But when talking with someone that is thinking about doing a tandem jump but fearful of death, it's not misleading to say that their car still is much more likely to kill them. It really is all about exposure time, and one jump with a TI is not that much exposure.


skydivedon  (D 25331)

Dec 21, 2005, 9:39 PM
Post #211 of 216 (1440 views)
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Re: [stevebabin] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

speaking of driving.... safety....skydiving... relationship and comparison. I was recently involved in a roll-over vehicle accident (rolled several times). I have NEVER been that scared skydiving, so I think I;m right that skydiving is safer!...... LOL... just could not resist following up with THAT story (told tongue in cheek)


MB38  (A 48618)

Dec 21, 2005, 10:02 PM
Post #212 of 216 (1432 views)
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Re: [skydivedon] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
speaking of driving.... safety....skydiving... relationship and comparison. I was recently involved in a roll-over vehicle accident (rolled several times). I have NEVER been that scared skydiving, so I think I;m right that skydiving is safer!...... LOL... just could not resist following up with THAT story (told tongue in cheek)

Your headlight blew out, so you reacted by swerving off the road into a tree and you're pissed that the airbags didn't fully inflate... and you don't have car insurance? Oh well, at least you're gonna drive again.Tongue

[don't worry, it's a complete joke... I'm not trying to draw a serious parallel. Driving analogies will never work properly]


(This post was edited by MB38 on Dec 21, 2005, 10:05 PM)


skydivedon  (D 25331)

Dec 21, 2005, 10:24 PM
Post #213 of 216 (1423 views)
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Re: [MB38] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Very true.... I appreciate the humor. The fact is that only YOU can increase or decrease your risk in ANY activity by how you perform that activity. Good instruction, common sense, cool headedness, good equipment and well practiced emergency measures are the key. It's fairly easy to do anything that you set your mind to do if you study it and practice it properly. The real test is when problems are encountered while doing a particular activity.

Often times it's how you handle unexpected problems that can make the difference between life and death (or serious injuries and walking away). Training and repitition in a controlled environment prepare you for the unexpected. Remember: Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement! There are freak things that happen in any activity, but much of the time there are things that can be done to drastically reduce your risk.

We should ALL walk away from this experience with a renewed effort to practice (and teach) our emergency procedures, recognize correctable problems and know when to get rid of something that you cannot fix in time to possibly have to fix something else.


BDashe  (A 60255)

Dec 23, 2005, 1:25 PM
Post #214 of 216 (1317 views)
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Re: [antonsteyn] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I've had my slider stick on my main before, pumping wasn't working so well. What actually freed it was a few pumps on the rears and some moderate shaking of both risers. Took close to 2000' to clear, was just below 2500 when i was in the saddle. That was my plan B after pumping the brakes didnt work, just remember, ALWAYS keep altitude aware. while playing with the risers i made sure to check altitude so i didnt do the genius 400ft cutaway. Just keep it all in mind when you further your career. Skydiving can be easy and fun, its hard and scary when things go wrong ;-) ...till your goggles fill up with blood!

clear skies

Brett


SkiD_PL8  (A License)

Jan 12, 2006, 2:01 PM
Post #215 of 216 (1175 views)
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Re: [BDashe] student accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I hear they are on a skydiving vacation at elsinore. Thought the locals might like to know so they could get autographs and such.Angelic Glad I didn't donate to that medical fund, would feel pretty cheated right about now.


freeflyflunky  (B License)

Jan 13, 2006, 12:24 PM
Post #216 of 216 (1101 views)
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Re: [SkiD_PL8] student accident REPOST FROM BONFIRE [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Okay - so I've been reading all the posts on Shayna and her incident, and I've had some thoughts on the subject, but I had no desire to waste my time posting....so why am I posting now?
Because she was just on a local (I'm in Omaha) radio show talking about her experience. Throughout most of the interview (the part that I heard anyway) I was actually very impressed with her. At the very end, however, she totally disappointed me. The two wahoos asked her "did you think about suing the skydiving place?" Instead of saying "no," or "I knew the risks," or "it was no one's fault but my own," or any number of other things, she just laughed for a second and talked about how panicked she was!

There are two dropzones that pull students from the Omaha metro area and the tone of interview after that point was incredibly negative towards skydiving. Shayna didn't do anything to correct the host's misconceptions about the incident - and she had plenty of opportunities to do so.

Maybe I'm just fuming in the moment - this probably isn't worth my time to post either...it's just that I wanted to reach through the radio and slap her! If you (Shayna) really plan on returning to the sport -- then please do as little as you can to damage it while you're out of it. I don't blame you for your accident - I applaud you for surviving. I don't blame you for the initial rush of media interest that followed your story - it was natural. But I do blame you for further courting that media attention and for not using your time in the limelight to do damage-control. Don't come on a radio station near MY dropzone and giggle about suing another dropzone for an incident that was not their fault.

Whew, okay... got that out of my system! Sorry for venting. CrazyCrazy



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