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In this month's Parachutist

 

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Ron

Nov 5, 2005, 5:15 PM
Post #51 of 110 (1102 views)
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Re: [kallend] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Right, so having a RSL AND learning proper EPs will double your chance of survival.

I don't know if it will in fact double....It might actually make it much more likely to survive.

However, it seems more focus is on the devices, and not enough on the procedures. If you don't believe that reference the recent CYPRES save thread....Hell reference the entire CYPRES save PDF at Airtecs website.

Getting the devices are easy one time choices. Knowing and practicing the proper procedures require constant practice and review.

So which do you think we should focus on?


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 6, 2005, 9:23 AM
Post #52 of 110 (1071 views)
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Re: [Ron] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Right, so having a RSL AND learning proper EPs will double your chance of survival.

I don't know if it will in fact double....It might actually make it much more likely to survive.

However, it seems more focus is on the devices, and not enough on the procedures. If you don't believe that reference the recent CYPRES save thread....Hell reference the entire CYPRES save PDF at Airtecs website.

Getting the devices are easy one time choices. Knowing and practicing the proper procedures require constant practice and review.

So which do you think we should focus on?

One? I'd focus on training AND appropriate choice of equipment. It seems to me that equipment gets serious underexposure in training. Like the recent fatality where the AAD was turned on at home before driving to the DZ. Clearly there was a complete lack of understanding of the equipment there, along with poor EPs. Fixing either (preferably both) would probably have saved a life.


rushmc  (D License)

Nov 6, 2005, 11:04 AM
Post #53 of 110 (1062 views)
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Re: [airdvr] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

Great post.

I have made no assumptions but I only know the following, shit happens! For that reason I have a cypress and an RSL. And I even have had an experience where the RSL did not deploy my reserve during the cutaway. I had a bag lock. I cut away and I am sure I was towing my trash. (I will never know for sure cause I tossed all my handlesUnsure)

Anyway, everyone needs to make thier own choices based on thier experience and what they have learned and who they have learned from.

It seems to me the most compelling arguments for not having an RSL have been mitigated by the Skyhook. (please everyone, I said most, not all!)

Anyway, I will keep your friends and thier families in my thoughts and be safe.

Blue skies

rushmc


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Nov 6, 2005, 6:24 PM
Post #54 of 110 (1033 views)
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Re: [goose491] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

>Still a bigger fear of mine then say, the loss of altitude awarness during an emergency.

That's fine. History has shown that loss of altitude awareness is a much bigger issue than a wrap, but both are certainly issues.


goose491  (A 7123)

Nov 7, 2005, 8:19 AM
Post #55 of 110 (992 views)
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Re: [billvon] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Still a bigger fear of mine then say, the loss of altitude awareness during an emergency.

That's fine. History has shown that loss of altitude awareness is a much bigger issue than a wrap, but both are certainly issues.

I don't disagree that history has more skydivers going in due to the first then the second. When I read the incidents forums and the fatality database, this is what I learn. This is our "history".

But which is a "bigger" issue is and must continue to be determined by the individual.

Question: What does this history teach us about which one means more to me? Which one I have more personal confidence about?

I would rather remind myself of the three rules (1:pull 2:pull at correct altitude 3: pull at correct altitude, stable) each time I touch my handles, then remind myself that I have an RSL to disconnect before I chop should I ever find myself giftwrapped.

Why? Because not sacrificing altitude for stability is applicable to each skydive whereas disconnecting an RSL is applicable to only a select few occurrences... and you do what you practice.

I doubt very many people who jump RSLs practice disconnecting them right quick. I would rather be "current" with my EPs and not worry about the remote possibility at all. The tradeoff is that I must remind myself of the three rules each time I touch my handles. I am comfortable with my decision. Comfort, in itself, is quite important.

Nick


pilotdave  (D License)

Nov 7, 2005, 8:41 AM
Post #56 of 110 (988 views)
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Re: [goose491] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am comfortable with my decision. Comfort, in itself, is quite important.

I don't really see why. I mean I guess people perform better when they're comfortable, so maybe that's the difference. But I'm sure the jumpers this thread is about were perfectly comfortable without an RSL too. Many jumpers are comfortable without an AAD. Someone might even be comfortable (on a skydive) without a reserve. I hate to sound like one of the old farts, but "the ground doesn't care" how comfortable anybody is. I bet lots of people are comfortable doing low aggressive toggle turns. Doesn't make it any less dangerous than it is for someone that isn't comfortable with it. Maybe quite the opposite.

I've got no problem with someone choosing not to use an RSL, AAD, or anything else. It's your choice, not mine. But I just think that you're ignoring history because you think you're different than those that did lose altitude awareness during malfunctions. If I KNEW that all of those people were sub-par skydivers that didn't practice their emergency procedures and figured they could judge altitude by looking at the ground even during a spinning malfunction and yada yada yada, I'd probably agree with you. I can avoid the situation by better preparing myself.

But unfortunately I've seen no evidence that I am any different from those people, so I've seen no evidence that more practice NECESSARILY improves my chances of avoiding a situation where an RSL will likely save my life.

I'm comfortable jumping without one too. But that has nothing to do with my chances of needing one someday.

Again, not trying to say you're wrong in your choice. I just don't personally agree with it, for me. But I do agree that it is a personal choice.

Dave


goose491  (A 7123)

Nov 7, 2005, 9:34 AM
Post #57 of 110 (978 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay, this is about the best I can put it:

I am more confident in my ability to pull my own silver handle after a chop then I am confident in my ability to locate and disconnect an RSL in a wrap situation. This difference in confidence is great enough for it to matter to me on each skydive, even despite the unlikelyhood of encountering the wrap.

This is what I mean when I speak of personal comfort. You yourself may have better presence of mind while wrapped up in your parachute and plumetting to the ground, then I would.... I'd put money on it actually.


With regards to "ignoring history"... I am not.

With regards to thinking I am different then other skydivers... I am. No two are alike.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Nov 7, 2005, 1:13 PM
Post #58 of 110 (946 views)
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Re: [goose491] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

>I doubt very many people who jump RSLs practice disconnecting them right quick.

Nor should they. An RSL is there to open your reserve rapidly after you cut away; if you ever are "gift wrapped" as you put it, disconnecting your RSL then cutting away could be fatal. The RSL is used because people cut away and never pull the reserve, whether the reason is that they are trying to get stable before opening their reserve, because they wish to escape from a 'gift wrap' or because they can't find their reserve handle.

>Because not sacrificing altitude for stability is applicable to each
> skydive whereas disconnecting an RSL is applicable to only a select
> few occurrences... and you do what you practice.

Right. But history has shown that trading altitude for stability kills a lot of people, whereas not being able to disconnect an RSL doesn't. Again, choose whatever you are comfortable with, but I don't think the evidence points to RSL's being the problem you see them as.


airdvr  (D 10977)

Nov 7, 2005, 2:46 PM
Post #59 of 110 (926 views)
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Re: [billvon] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

Can someone please list the pro's and con's of having an RSL. WHat would it change in my EP's?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 7, 2005, 3:00 PM
Post #60 of 110 (917 views)
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Re: [airdvr] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

>Can someone please list the pro's and con's of having an RSL.
>WHat would it change in my EP's?

Not much. If you cut away on the ground because you are getting dragged, you may want to disconnect the RSL first, because your reserve will open if it's still connected. (Likely won't inflate, but it will be expensive.)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Nov 7, 2005, 3:32 PM
Post #61 of 110 (905 views)
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Re: [billvon] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you cut away on the ground because you are getting dragged, you may want to disconnect the RSL first, because your reserve will open if it's still connected.
Reserve container will open, because the reserve pin will have been pulled by the RSL. But will the reserve (chute) itself actually even leave the free-bag as a result?

The one time I have seen this done, it didn't. Once the main separated, the dragging pretty much immediately stopped. When the person then got up, his reserve pc launched (it was pinned on his back to the ground) and the freebag just dropped straight down to the ground.

In reply to:
(Likely won't inflate, but it will be expensive.)
You can say that again, because of not only the 50 bucks reserve repack (which should really be the ONLY expense otherwise I would think - no?), the one I am referring to occurred in one of the muddiest fields you could imagine. Cost him all new reserve pc and freebag on top of that too. Not to mention cleaning of his entire rig and jumpsuit as well.

Lesson learned for that jumper on RSL's! CrazyWink

-Grant


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Nov 7, 2005, 3:34 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 7, 2005, 3:38 PM
Post #62 of 110 (897 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

>Reserve container will open, because the reserve pin will have been
> pulled by the RSL. But will the reserve (chute) itself actually even
> leave the free-bag as a result?

Usually not. In my experience, if you do this, the reserve PC will launch and the reserve freebag will stay in the container. Which is why it's not much of a safety issue, unless you have a Skyhook. Most riggers will require a complete inspection and repack before they close it, though, so it could be a bit costly.


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Nov 7, 2005, 4:31 PM
Post #63 of 110 (885 views)
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Re: [billvon] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

Not in reply to you Bill just a general reply...

What concerns me the most is the newer jumpers that will read this and see people such as Remi "who is a greenie" and think since he doesn't "Like or Use" an RSL I don't need one either. (Nothing personal Remi Wink)

I mention this because it has already happened. Another Jumper at our DZ took his RSL off the rig he had purchased with all the goodies and extras becuase he read here that RSL's are BAD. Well actually that the BAD out weighed The Good. This guy isn't into CRW or Camera Flying and had less then 100 jumps when he came to this conclusion.
This was his statement to me in not so many words.

Not sure what can or should be done expect remember that impressionable people are watching those with all the big cool looking numbers and "colorful" names.....


Premier Remster  (C License)

Nov 7, 2005, 6:37 PM
Post #64 of 110 (868 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
and think since he doesn't "Like or Use" an RSL I don't need one either.

Sigh... Its not my point!!!!!!!!!

My point is that before slapping other pieces of gear, 1st focus on your EPs!!!!!!



Quote:
Nothing personal Remi

No sweat... everyone knows I`m not a real greenie... Sly


goose491  (A 7123)

Nov 8, 2005, 7:27 AM
Post #65 of 110 (839 views)
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Re: [billvon] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

<<An RSL is there to open your reserve rapidly after you cut away; if you ever are "gift wrapped" as you put it, disconnecting your RSL then cutting away could be fatal.>>

I don't think I fully grasp that one. A wrap itself could be fatal... but I don't want my reserve deploying until I am completely free of it... or until I decide it's "more fabric" time.

??


goose491  (A 7123)

Nov 8, 2005, 8:28 AM
Post #66 of 110 (826 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Another Jumper at our DZ took his RSL off the rig he had purchased with all the goodies and extras becuase he read here that RSL's are BAD. Well actually that the BAD out weighed The Good. This guy isn't into CRW or Camera Flying and had less then 100 jumps when he came to this conclusion.

Loaded Question: Why do you suppose it's good to remove your RSL if you are into CRW ?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 8, 2005, 10:55 AM
Post #67 of 110 (805 views)
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Re: [goose491] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

> but I don't want my reserve deploying until I am completely free of
>it... or until I decide it's "more fabric" time.

If you are wrapped in another canopy, often you cannot see your altimeter or the ground, and unless you are doing CRW, you're going to be very low. You have a few choices:

1. Try to get free, cut away, take out your knife, start cutting etc until you fall free; you will then open your reserve. This has some obvious problems if you are low and can't tell your altitude.

2. Try to get free for X seconds, cut away and then open your reserve immediately, via RSL or handle. One of four things will happen:

-You cannot get free and you impact with the mess. The reserve may open (which will help) but probably won't.

-You cut away, fall free and have your reserve open (most likely.)

-You cut away, fall free, your RSL opens your reserve, and your reserve PC, bridle or freebag snags on something. Result - your reserve opens faster.

-You cut away, open your reserve, but you are held for a few seconds. The reserve PC finds free air and deploys _through_ something else. You remain there until the reserve clears the freebag, _then_ fall free. Your reserve gets entangled with the mess.

The last option is very unlikely. Hence my belief that it's not a good thing to change procedures to attempt to avoid. The others are more likely; hence, an RSL is more likely to help you (IMO.)


brianfry713  (D 28665)

Nov 8, 2005, 12:27 PM
Post #68 of 110 (788 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

A friend of mine got dragged a long ways on a windy day after his first solo jump after graduating AFF. He never cut away, and finally ended up in a bush that stopped him. He was mostly on his back, but cut all cut up on his arms and legs. I don't think he thought to cut away, but if you're worried about the $60 repack and you're already getting dragged, keep in mind the damage you can do to the rig after landing. He ended up paying upwards of $300 to rebuild the rental rig.

On windy days, disconnect the RSL once you're under a good canopy so you don't hesitate cutting away on the ground if needed.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Nov 8, 2005, 3:14 PM
Post #69 of 110 (768 views)
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Re: [brianfry713] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
On windy days, disconnect the RSL once you're under a good canopy so you don't hesitate cutting away on the ground if needed.

Actually NO! ...I (personally) would NOT recommend that either! If you already have and have chosen to jump with an RSL in the 1st place, disconnecting it once you are under good canopy has JUST TAKEN THAT AWAY FROM YOU, from even being available during the time it will most likely even matter/make a difference to you! ...And that is, when you get down low (lower).

Better advice: If you are jumping in high enough winds that you fear possibly being dragged upon landing, then: best to probably not be jumping at all that day! MadUnsurePirate

My (additional now ...it's racking up! AngelicWink) 2 cents.

Blue Skies,
-Grant


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Nov 8, 2005, 3:15 PM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 9, 2005, 8:20 AM
Post #70 of 110 (732 views)
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Re: [Ron] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Right, so having a RSL AND learning proper EPs will double your chance of survival.

I don't know if it will in fact double....It might actually make it much more likely to survive.

However, it seems more focus is on the devices, and not enough on the procedures. If you don't believe that reference the recent CYPRES save thread....Hell reference the entire CYPRES save PDF at Airtecs website.

Getting the devices are easy one time choices. Knowing and practicing the proper procedures require constant practice and review.

So which do you think we should focus on?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Ever notice that instructors bounce far less often than fun jumpers?
That is because instructors review EPs with students EVERY F*&^ING WEEKEND!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 9, 2005, 8:33 AM
Post #71 of 110 (751 views)
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Re: [brianfry713] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

Never ceases to amaze me the affinity students have for asphalt taxiways on windy days.
.... and they always drag the most expensive part of the H/C!
More than one instructor has yelled: "Roll over, skin heals for free!"
When I was Cutomer Service Manager at Rigging Innovations, it amazed me how many DZOs cheerfully paid for $300 or even $400 worth of repairs to Telesis student rigs.
In comparison, most sport jumpers balked at $250 worth of repairs.


Ron

Nov 9, 2005, 12:17 PM
Post #72 of 110 (730 views)
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Re: [brianfry713] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A friend of mine got dragged a long ways on a windy day after his first solo jump after graduating AFF. He never cut away, and finally ended up in a bush that stopped him.

Cutting away would have prevented that. Better yet he should not have been jumping in those winds.

In reply to:
On windy days, disconnect the RSL once you're under a good canopy so you don't hesitate cutting away on the ground if needed.

That is some of the most told and worst advice ever given. To disconnect the RSL after the canopy is open is to remove it when it works best...LOW.

The best advice is to keep the RSL on and if you are being drug, cutaway anyway. The RSL will pull the pin, but it will not open the reserve.


Ron

Nov 9, 2005, 12:18 PM
Post #73 of 110 (729 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ever notice that instructors bounce far less often than fun jumpers?
That is because instructors review EPs with students EVERY F*&^ING WEEKEND!

Also notice that competitors that make 1,000 jumps a year die less than fun jumpers?

Two things lead to safety, Currency and procedures.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Nov 9, 2005, 3:02 PM
Post #74 of 110 (709 views)
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Re: [Ron] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Also notice that competitors that make 1,000 jumps a year die less than fun jumpers?

Two things lead to safety, Currency and procedures.

countered by the fact that many are doing very challenging acts.

of course fewer of them die - how many people are there doing 1000/jumps a year, Ron? Is there one of them for every 100 doing 50-200?


thepollster  (D 12122)

Nov 9, 2005, 3:24 PM
Post #75 of 110 (702 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] In this month's Parachutist [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
of course fewer of them die - how many people are there doing 1000/jumps a year, Ron? Is there one of them for every 100 doing 50-200?

Why don't you compare USPA Nationals vs. WFFC? I don't recall any serious injuries at the last 3 nationals, but someone dies at the WFFC almost every year, and there are always injuries. My thought is that the competitors are current, and the boogie jumpers tend not to be as current.


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