Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Falling out of a Harness

 


migliore  (D 28383)

Nov 2, 2005, 8:02 PM
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Falling out of a Harness Can't Post

There has been a good bit of discussion about how a jumper can fall out of a harness lately. Jan Meyer has an article about it, and PhreeZone used to have a video showing his attempt. I'm honest enough to admit that in my time in the sport I had never heard of this accidentally happening so I never gave it major concern. With the recent tragic loss of a tandem passenger and stories of actual accidents and close-calls that have happened on sport rigs, I thought it might help people in my shoes to actually see how easy it can be. So I made two quick videos that show how one could fall out of either 1) the "head hole" while in a track or while headdown, or 2) the "rear hole" while in a sit.

Background: My rig is second hand and thus doesn't fit me perfect. I am aware that my rig (especially the yoke) is a bit too big for me. I also have lost 30 lbs. since I got it. I have put ~400 jumps on this rig and have never had a problem. In each video, I make the straps very tight, just as I do when I jump. The main canopy has been removed because a fallout of the harness would most likely occur on deployment as the main was inflating (and thus out of the container).

Sitfly Video

Tracking/HeadDown Video


I just thought this might be good for awareness. Please keep all comments constructive.


sdctlc  (D 16437)

Nov 2, 2005, 8:42 PM
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

WOW! You made that look easy! You did a very nice job puttting them together..

I would have to ask that even though you noted losing weight and the rig not fitting correctly, comparing to the demo given with your current build, how easy do you (or anybody) think that a better fitting set up would come off that easy????? Again that is more of a question and in no way a criticizm of the video's as they were very good..... I woud venture to guess a very high % of jmpers have used or non-fitted gear as theior own currently..

Thanks........

Scott C.


tdog  (D 28800)

Nov 2, 2005, 9:36 PM
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

I did your very same "head down" video move last night before I saw your video...

If my chest strap was tight, no flip-flop, I simply could not get my shoulder straps over both arms at the same time... (I have wider shoulders than you, but I think my rig fits about the same).

I did your "sitfly" move with the same easy out results (WITH THE CANOPY IN)... Less than 30 seconds from putting the rig on to having it on the floor with the straps just where I jump with them... Now I am a slightly bigger guy so I had to get my knees in my face to do it... Second attempt took me 12 seconds... But, with a little more practice, I think I can get out in less than 10...

And, my rig was custom made for me and fits snug...

Scary, scary, scary...Crazy

But, I have looked at my body position and wondered, if there was actually weight/tension on the straps and main lift web, I don't think I could do it...


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Nov 2, 2005, 9:59 PM
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Re: [sdctlc] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Valinda, being a former gymnast, can touch her toes and slide her rig off in seconds. Military harnesses have the saddle strap between the two leg straps to keep you in the rig, no matter what (like ejecting at 400 knots). That just might not have been such a bad idea. I also like belly bands for really holding your rig on securely.


MB38  (A 48618)

Nov 2, 2005, 10:06 PM
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

I jumped a demo rig that was about 1.5" too long for my torso... and proportionately wider. I'm a skinny guy, but I'm 6'4", so demo rigs are generally a little funny on me.

After a day of jumping, I sat down with the rig still on [no main in container] and it slid right off of my shoulders. I had loosened my chest strap under canopy, so it wouldn't have been that easy in freefall, but I was able to get out of the harness without any significant effort at all with the straps the way I had jumped them.

Needless to say I'll never jump a rig that size again. I suppose I'm lucky all I do is RW at this point.


(This post was edited by MB38 on Nov 2, 2005, 10:08 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 3, 2005, 6:27 AM
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Very nice work...
Thanks for taking the time and putting forth the effort to make that up!


Another point I'd like to share...

Back in the mid-80's I too 'fell out the hole' and it was years before sit flying. I was jumping an accuracy canopy that was set up with a 'raper' instead of a bag, and a really small split slider.

It was a great combination for accuracy jumping which usually was a hop n pop...

...but when I took it to terminal the thing opened in a millisecond, shit hammering me every time. It was like hanging the pilot chute on a hook as you went past at 120.

On one RW jump, I tracked-flared-reached & pulled....(Pull-out not throw out) and the next thing I know I hanging almost upside down by my knees in the leg straps. One arm was caught up in the container and webbing because of the wrist mounted Barigo altimeter.

I had gone down through the hole as your sit fly video shows...but it was a belly to earth opening, just a real HARD one!

Fortunately another jumper was close by and followed me down shouting encouragement to 'HANG ON' and telling me where I was heading and what I was about to land on/in.

I did eventually pull myself back up in the harness but it was at 100-200 feet, and only had time to pop the brakes and flare downwind.

We walked back to the packing area, a bit shaken but none the worse for wear, and we all had a discussion about what had happened...someone mentioned I may not have had my chest strap connected, but I did...in fact used it to assist in pulling myself back into the harness...

I repacked and tried to simulate just what had happened...I'm 6'4" but extremely flexible, I simply bent over at the waist and slid the whole rig off..with both canopies in it !

My room mate at the time had a loft and was manufacturing an accuracy rig called "The Force",
the rigs had a solid saddle, with a strap connecting the legstraps together at the back, he told me there was no way one could fall out the hole utilizing one of his rigs....until I put one on and showed him!

It WAS harder to do, but even with the solid saddle I could bend over, shrug my shoulders and 'lose' the rig.


I guess the point I'm trying to make is, even if you don't do sit fly or head down...it may still be possible for ANYONE...under certain less than ideal circumstances to "fall out the hole"


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Nov 3, 2005, 6:29 AM)


Tink1717  (D 12524)

Nov 3, 2005, 8:24 AM
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, wet blanket time. I watched the videos and thought that you need to consider that the forces involved would only be transmitted through the connection point on the harness and in an essentially symmetrical manner. In your sit video, you were administering the force through the reserve container. In the head down video, you removed the risers one at a time. Neither of these scenarios are likely in the field. Good food for thought though.


migliore  (D 28383)

Nov 3, 2005, 8:51 AM
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Re: [Tink1717] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OK, wet blanket time. I watched the videos and thought that you need to consider that the forces involved would only be transmitted through the connection point on the harness and in an essentially symmetrical manner. In your sit video, you were administering the force through the reserve container. In the head down video, you removed the risers one at a time. Neither of these scenarios are likely in the field. Good food for thought though.

I removed the container in those methods because my wife was already asleep and probably wouldn't have been an especially happy participant anyway. Also, I couldn't use both arms at the same time when moving the shoulder straps, but with enough force, they would both come off at the same time.

Under normal circumstances, though, you are correct...the forces applied to the harness by the canopy would be symetric and only applied at the attachment points. This would account for my success in not falling out of the harness for the past 400 jumps. However, the scenarios I demonstrated would most likely happen when things didn't go as planned. Suppose a line snagged or the canopy deployed unevenly or the jumper had poor body position or a premature opening happened or....


Andy9o8  (D License)

Nov 3, 2005, 9:41 AM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Military harnesses have the saddle strap between the two leg straps to keep you in the rig, no matter what (like ejecting at 400 knots). That just might not have been such a bad idea. I also like belly bands for really holding your rig on securely.

I've been thinking exactly the same thing these past few days reading these threads. Remember the military surplus rigs we jumped as students in the 70's - all rigged up that way. Then sport rigs started using "split saddles", which were all the fashion rage back then, and are now the universal standard. Maybe the next generation of harnesses needs to look a bit more like the previous one...

Clearly, these "holes" need to be designed out. Maybe..(and I'm no rigger..) full saddles...belly bands and rear horizontals...maybe a vertical running from the middle of the full saddle up to the rear horizontal....something like that...just some off-the-top ideas......
...Riggers please chime in....

Edit: BTW, while Iím on a roll here, Iíve never much liked the design of the current generation of chest straps, either. Used to be, youíd snap the two links closed, and it was done. You could still loosen it if you wanted, but you didn't have to undo it to come out of it. Now, the links are gone, and thereís this omnipresent ďmisrouted chest strapĒ issue. I wish that could be designed-out into something more user-friendly, too.
...OK, rant over.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Nov 3, 2005, 10:01 AM)


shall555  (D 7231)

Nov 3, 2005, 9:57 AM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...Maybe..(and I'm no rigger..) full saddles...belly bands and rear horizontals...maybe a vertical running from the middle of the full saddle up to the rear horizontal....something like that...just some off-the-top ideas......

Man, I miss the belly band on my old Wonderhog Sprint. Sure, it had the pilot chute pouch on it, but, the harness felt *secure*.

When I first put on a modern rig this past spring, it felt really minimal, compared with what I remembered about my early 80s gear. Just a chest-strap and legstraps make me feel much less "contained."

I'd pay for a well thought-out belly-band and backstrap mod to my new rig, that's for sure.

shall
Cool


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 3, 2005, 10:16 AM
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Re: [shall555] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a thought....

How about diagonal chest 'straps' making an X across the front running from the hip ring to just under the handles?

I'm no rig designer but a similar harness is used in high work for construction, and they're comfortable enough to wear all day.


shall555  (D 7231)

Nov 3, 2005, 10:21 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just a thought....

How about diagonal chest 'straps' making an X across the front running from the hip ring to just under the handles?

Just guessin' here (I'm not a rigger, and my TV show was cancelled), but an X-strap configuration might not provide enough tension to counter the spreading forces on the MLW in the event of a head-down opening.

shall
Cool


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 3, 2005, 10:26 AM
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Re: [shall555] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Just a thought....

How about diagonal chest 'straps' making an X across the front running from the hip ring to just under the handles?

Just guessin' here (I'm not a rigger, and my TV show was cancelled), but an X-strap configuration might not provide enough tension to counter the spreading forces on the MLW in the event of a head-down opening.

shall
Cool

Quote:

Good point....


And to make it so, would also make putting the thing on much harder.

Well I know....

We could always put the reserve on the FRONT!Wink

It would be tough to get through something like my old 'Mini-System'....and imagine the thrills THAT could bring to a head down or Hybrid jump!ShockedSly


livendive  (D 21415)

Nov 3, 2005, 10:30 AM
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Re: [Tink1717] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OK, wet blanket time. I watched the videos and thought that you need to consider that the forces involved would only be transmitted through the connection point on the harness and in an essentially symmetrical manner. In your sit video, you were administering the force through the reserve container. In the head down video, you removed the risers one at a time. Neither of these scenarios are likely in the field. Good food for thought though.

In the demonstrations I've done/watched, the sit version works just about as easily with nothing but symmetrical pulling up on the main risers, as would be experienced in a premature opening. Not so sure about the tracking/headdown version.

Blues,
Dave


Reginald  (D 28162)

Nov 3, 2005, 11:02 AM
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My rig is second hand and thus doesn't fit me perfect. I am aware that my rig (especially the yoke) is a bit too big for me. I also have lost 30 lbs. since I got it.

It is very possible to fall out of ill fiting gear. it would be interesting to see the same thing with properly fitting gear.


NickDG  (D 8904)

Nov 3, 2005, 1:19 PM
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Re: [Reginald] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In this photo by Karl Eakins there is a modification on this passenger harness to keep this paralyzed jumper's legs together in drogue fall. While this may not be a crotch strap for the reasons we are discussing it does give the idea of how it could work. The crotch strap could be set loose enough so that under canopy the leg straps are still taking the load and the crotch strap would just prevent backing out of the harness.

BTW, on the RWS site in the tandem passenger harness section at http://www.relativeworkshop.com/tech_ssh.html it does say the following with the last line being the operative one:

"The Horizontal Back Strap must be positioned low and securely tightened. Don't forget to snug up the diagonals. After preliminary adjustment, step back and look at your student from every angle. Make sure there are no "gaps" that anyone could squeeze out of, especially in the back."

NickD Smile
BASE 194
Attachments: Strap.jpg (47.5 KB)


RogerRamjet  (D License)

Nov 3, 2005, 2:32 PM
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Re: [shall555] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
...Maybe..(and I'm no rigger..) full saddles...belly bands and rear horizontals...maybe a vertical running from the middle of the full saddle up to the rear horizontal....something like that...just some off-the-top ideas......

Man, I miss the belly band on my old Wonderhog Sprint. Sure, it had the pilot chute pouch on it, but, the harness felt *secure*.

When I first put on a modern rig this past spring, it felt really minimal, compared with what I remembered about my early 80s gear. Just a chest-strap and legstraps make me feel much less "contained."

I'd pay for a well thought-out belly-band and backstrap mod to my new rig, that's for sure.

shall
Cool

The original Wonderhog (and all other gear I built) had a lateral band running from the legstrap crossing point through the backpad to the other legstrap crossing point. this band was independent of the belly band which just attached to the container to hold the bottom of it close to your ass. You could not fall out backwards. The lateral band ran across your back just above your hips (about where your belt would be).

I don't know when this particular strap was deleted from modern rigs. The Wonderhog had it, Buchman's Eagle rig had one, and my rigs had one. I'm pretty sure the SST rigs of the same time period had one as well. It was "normal" in other words, split saddles or not.

Edited to add: I have uploaded a picture to my gallery that shows this band on the Wonderhog. As soon as the powers that be approve the image, I will post a link to it. I didn't think I could downrez it enough to attach here and still see the strap clearly.


(This post was edited by RogerRamjet on Nov 3, 2005, 2:34 PM)


steve1  (D 23640)

Nov 3, 2005, 5:15 PM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Military harnesses have the saddle strap between the two leg straps to keep you in the rig, no matter what (like ejecting at 400 knots). That just might not have been such a bad idea. I also like belly bands for really holding your rig on securely.

I've been thinking exactly the same thing these past few days reading these threads. Remember the military surplus rigs we jumped as students in the 70's - all rigged up that way. Then sport rigs started using "split saddles", which were all the fashion rage back then, and are now the universal standard. Maybe the next generation of harnesses needs to look a bit more like the previous one...

Clearly, these "holes" need to be designed out. Maybe..(and I'm no rigger..) full saddles...belly bands and rear horizontals...maybe a vertical running from the middle of the full saddle up to the rear horizontal....something like that...just some off-the-top ideas......
...Riggers please chime in....

Edit: BTW, while Iím on a roll here, Iíve never much liked the design of the current generation of chest straps, either. Used to be, youíd snap the two links closed, and it was done. You could still loosen it if you wanted, but you didn't have to undo it to come out of it. Now, the links are gone, and thereís this omnipresent ďmisrouted chest strapĒ issue. I wish that could be designed-out into something more user-friendly, too.
...OK, rant over.


Your post does bring back memories...There was nothing like a big old belly reserve in front, complete with belly band, and a solid saddle on your good ole B-12 harness and container all snugged down tight to let you know there was no falling out of that rig no matter what. (hows that for a run on sentence?)

I remember when split saddles came out and kind of scared some of us. I had a split solid saddle on my Super Pro harness. It was like a split saddle, but had a small strap connecting the two. There was no falling out of that rig either.

If I remember right, even the first pig rigs had a belly band or two across the front to hold you in. I never jumped one, but had lot's of pals who swore by them.

And I know how you feel about the new chest straps. When I first started back I forgot to fasten it up right twice. Luckily I caught it both times in the plane just before jumping. I do miss just snapping my chest strap and then forgetting about it. Now I'm kind of paranoid about it and check it often.

My present rig is a little too big for me. I have to really cinch the chest strap down to keep me in. I worry about my scrawny shoulders slipping out.

I agree, I think it's time for someone to build a safer harness....Steve1


billbooth  (D 3546)

Nov 3, 2005, 6:44 PM
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Re: [steve1] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

People don't want "safer" harnesses. Harnesses with belly bands are safer...but people won't buy them. Harnesses without lower harness rings are safer, (because the rings allow the leg straps to rotate forward with almost no resistance, increasing the "hole" size in the back) but "everyone" wants "articulated" harnesses. Larger canopies are safer, but people keep getting smaller and smaller ones. Dacron line is safer because of lower opening shocks (at least 4 jumpers have died because of hard openings in just the last two years on no-stretch lined canopies), but "everyone" still wants microline or Vectran so that their canopy will pack smaller. Large 3-rings are safer, but almost no one wants them because mini rings look "cooler". Non-collapsible pilot chutes and sliders are safer because you can't forget to cock them, but "everyone" has to have a collapsible, to make their tiny canopy with microline go faster, so that they can hit the ground even faster when they "miss" that swoop. In short, I've never seen people choose "safer" gear (with the possible exception of AAD's and RSL's), and I don't think I ever will. As I've said many times before,"Fashion wins out over safety every time".


hookitt  (D License)

Nov 3, 2005, 8:22 PM
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Re: [billbooth] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
People don't want "safer" harnesses.

That's because too many options have been made available. For example, if the only option was a fixed harness, that's the harness people would buy.


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Nov 3, 2005, 9:15 PM
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Re: [billbooth] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't forget anti-inversion netting, Bill. Cool


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Nov 3, 2005, 9:16 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just a thought....

How about diagonal chest 'straps' making an X across the front running from the hip ring to just under the handles?

I'm no rig designer but a similar harness is used in high work for construction, and they're comfortable enough to wear all day.

How big are your breasts? Do the 1" (or wider) straps have to cross between them?

Edit: Oh, to just _below_ the handles. So this would be "cross-my-gut" straps. Wink


(This post was edited by FrogNog on Nov 3, 2005, 9:16 PM)


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Nov 3, 2005, 9:17 PM
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Re: [NickDG] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
crotch strap

I believe the politically correct term is "anti-submarine strap".


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 3, 2005, 10:34 PM
Post #24 of 116 (8791 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

>For example, if the only option was a fixed harness, that's the harness
>people would buy.

Well, what happens in the market is that if one manufacturer only offered fixed harnesses, everyone would go to another manufacturer. So that behavior is economically discouraged. We're getting exactly what we ask for, in general.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 4, 2005, 5:57 AM
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Re: [FrogNog] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

How big are your breasts?

Quote:

Small...but 'Perky'!Blush


After giving it some thought, a harness with an "X" would be an absolute BEAR to get in & out of...

I was just throwing out ideas, trying to spark some thought.Wink


RogerRamjet  (D License)

Nov 4, 2005, 7:02 AM
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Re: [RogerRamjet] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is the link to the picture from my previous post.

Look at Greg (on the right). Note there are two straps (besides the leg strap) coming from the back pad area, one by his elbow and one between that one and the leg strap. One is the belly band (by the elbow), the other is the strap that runs from leg strap crossing point to leg strap crossing point through the back pad.

http://www.dropzone.com/...jpg&img=&tt=

If this strap exists on modern gear, it must be so high now that you can slide out under it...


steve1  (D 23640)

Nov 4, 2005, 7:09 AM
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Re: [billbooth] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Good post Mr. Booth. It makes perfect sense why sky diving gear has evolved to the point of being dangerous. Looking cool isn't worth getting killed over, but yet most of us still jump what is fashionable at the time.....Steve1


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Nov 4, 2005, 7:20 AM
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Re: [RogerRamjet] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

I know of at least 1 Vector3 container out there with a belly band. The owner loves it and says his rig is more secure on him with it then with out it. No need to worry about handels shifting either.


skydiverek  (C 952)

Nov 4, 2005, 7:54 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Skydiving magazine ran an add a few months ago for a removable belly band add-on. I can't remember the url though...

Patrick De Gayardon skysurfed with a Vector 3 with a built-in belly band.

Here is that belly-band thread, BTW: http://www.dropzone.com/...post=1623684#1623684

Smile


RogerRamjet  (D License)

Nov 4, 2005, 8:27 AM
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In reply to:
I know of at least 1 Vector3 container out there with a belly band. The owner loves it and says his rig is more secure on him with it then with out it. No need to worry about handels shifting either.

I guess the belly band would help, I think we made them from type-8. The lateral band a spoke of was made of the same material as the rest of the harness, type-13 I believe.

BTW: Anyone know Greg's last name in the photo I linked to above. The photo was taken in the Fall of 1978 at the Sod Farm near Tampa. He jumped there and at Z-Hills mid to late '70s. The Sod Farm was run by Cliff and Patty Dobson at the time.


(This post was edited by RogerRamjet on Nov 4, 2005, 8:27 AM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Nov 4, 2005, 8:39 AM
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People, Iím cautioning you, we donít want to see our sport start getting scrutinized and regulated by outsiders (any more than it already is), but the fact that this might (might) have caused a tandem studentís fatality makes it more likely to get the attention of the self-important busybodies in Whuffo World. Gear for the most part has evolved over the past 20 years to be safer, but current harness design might be an exception to that. Do you really think the standard pre-jump ďwaiver videoĒ will cover a design defect allowing a tandem student to squirt out of the harness on canopy deployment? Well, Iíve got news for you: it wonít.

We all have a responsibility to deal proactively with this issue, and that means both manufacturers and consumers. We canít just wash our hands of the issue by saying itís just a matter of economics, so thatís that. The auto companies tried that, and it didnít fly; in fact, it cost them big time. Theyíve been making cars increasingly safer, but sure as hell (for the most part) not on their own initiatives, but because outsiders forced them to do so. Believe me, itís far better that we come to grips with this issue and deal with it before some whuffo with a title and an agenda steps in to do it for us.


billbooth  (D 3546)

Nov 4, 2005, 6:20 PM
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In reply to:
Don't forget anti-inversion netting, Bill. Cool
You're right...that's actually my favorite example, because the proven benefits were so astounding, and still nobody wanted it...just because it packed up bigger.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 4, 2005, 11:47 PM
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Re: [skydiverek] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

The rigs in this picture all have a belly band. I always felt they made the rig feel more secure and snug.

Sparky
Attachments: Air Frieght.jpg (90.5 KB)


MB38  (A 48618)

Nov 5, 2005, 12:18 AM
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Re: [mjosparky] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Wouldn't falling out of a rig through the hole that the belly band closes require a back-breaking bend at the hips? Or am I not thinking of its other effects on the harness as a whole?


Andy9o8  (D License)

Nov 5, 2005, 9:48 AM
Post #35 of 116 (2942 views)
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Re: [MB38] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wouldn't falling out of a rig through the hole that the belly band closes require a back-breaking bend at the hips? Or am I not thinking of its other effects on the harness as a whole?

Among other things, a belly band provides an element of redundancy to your front - you might mis-route your chest strap (see my rant above), which could cause the whole works to snatch off your back at linestretch, but it's less likely you'll misroute both your chest strap and your belly band. Plus, a belly band snugs everything up against you tighter than not having one.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Nov 5, 2005, 10:30 AM
Post #36 of 116 (2934 views)
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Re: [MB38] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wouldn't falling out of a rig through the hole that the belly band closes require a back-breaking bend at the hips? Or am I not thinking of its other effects on the harness as a whole?
The belly band keeps the main lift web from lifting away from the body when you bend forward at the waist. This keeps the hole in the back of the harness smaller. Mike Michigan, one of the pioneers of freestyle, had a belly band on his rig for this reason.


schuey87  (A 105691)

Nov 5, 2005, 1:27 PM
Post #37 of 116 (2918 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

IMHO, a belly band doesn't look uncool. I added one onto a couple of pics using that crappy paint program that comes with windows, albeit it quite badly, but it didn't make me think boy thats uncool. If having a belly band on every rig saved even one life wouldn't it be worth it?


Scrumpot  (D License)

Nov 5, 2005, 5:01 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Would belly bands such as those really be that effective on more "modern" gear with their pack-trays (ie: actual container size and orientation) being so relatively smaller (and up much higher on the jumpers back) than those you have pictured here? How would just a belly-band mod on a CURRENT Jav TJN or Mirage/Micron (or any rig designed to hold today's preponderance of sub-150's canopies) for instance, make the "hole" between the bottom of the main container and lower harness (leg straps juncture) any smaller?

Also, knowing that it has been shown in some incidences that some jumpers have had problems with their EP's by pulling on lift-web, when they had THOUGHT they were pulling on their "stubborn" handles, would you think that going BACK to something like this (adding yet again a belly band or some other form of front strap) might also cause a potential HAZARD trade-off, somehow more complicating or hampering consistent & effective EP executions?

Just some thoughts that come to my mind as I listen to this debate and look at these pictures. Especially as I compare those now too, to most current gear anyway, both in-use and on the market.


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Nov 5, 2005, 5:06 PM)


Ncrowe  (A 46781)

Nov 5, 2005, 6:23 PM
Post #39 of 116 (2884 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

 

After reading all of the recent post I decided to see how easily my custom made Infinity rig would come off of me......there's no way it could come off my shoulders i.e. headdown..but I was shocked on how easily I could get out of the "hole" I had my girlfriend help yank it up so now she's all freaked out and i must admit it's made me feel a bit uneasy ...even though I understand it's not something thats "likely" to happen.........I'm still learning to sit and I've actually had my leg straps slide foward quite a bit ....I'm pretty suprised I've never even given a second of thought of comming out of a rig but I guess until recently..edit ..I've never heard ..edit.. of it never been discussed...


(This post was edited by Ncrowe on Nov 5, 2005, 6:27 PM)


MB38  (A 48618)

Nov 5, 2005, 7:33 PM
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Re: [Ncrowe] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

I went at it with a rental rig today with main in container. I could get out of both holes, but it took some work. The kind of incident that would put me in a position to fall out of that rig would probably result in some other injuries beforehand.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Nov 7, 2005, 9:08 AM
Post #41 of 116 (2786 views)
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In reply to:
I went at it with a rental rig today with main in container. I could get out of both holes, but it took some work. The kind of incident that would put me in a position to fall out of that rig would probably result in some other injuries beforehand.

I wonder whether the fact that the main was still in the container, as well as your body dimensions (height, weight, girth, etc.) may or may not have affected your results. Just food for thought...


MB38  (A 48618)

Nov 7, 2005, 2:05 PM
Post #42 of 116 (2749 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I went at it with a rental rig today with main in container. I could get out of both holes, but it took some work. The kind of incident that would put me in a position to fall out of that rig would probably result in some other injuries beforehand.

I wonder whether the fact that the main was still in the container, as well as your body dimensions (height, weight, girth, etc.) may or may not have affected your results. Just food for thought...

I imagine that's exactly what affected my results as compared to the other [larger] container with no main. I have no doubt that this varies person by person, rig by rig and conditions by conditions.


point_code  (B 30482)

Nov 11, 2005, 7:31 AM
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

I had my first hard opening a couple weeks ago, and I'm still abit sore and bruised from it. Anyhow it got me to thinking, and I wondered if it was posssible to fall out of the harness had I been in a sitting position. I also thought about a time early on when I hadn't properly adjusted my rig and rode the canopy down with a chet strap in my throat. what's my point you might ask?......

well, I concluded that had I been able to fall out of the harness thru the bottom, it probably would have broken my neck in the process meaning that it wouldn't likely be survivable anyhow.

Just a rookies thought. feel free to comment


JonDerungs  (Student)

Aug 13, 2008, 8:27 AM
Post #44 of 116 (2340 views)
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Re: [point_code] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

just found this old thread.

was just wondering if this is still an issue.


redlegphi  (A License)

Aug 13, 2008, 10:41 AM
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Re: [JonDerungs] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
just found this old thread.

was just wondering if this is still an issue.

There are some better threads around that discuss this. I'd suggest searching for them. Short answer is yes, you can call out of your harness if you don't have the proper equipment for the discipline you're flying or if the equipment is not being properly operated.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Aug 14, 2008, 5:22 AM
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Re: [JohnDerungs] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Suggestions that the industry modify its "standard" design of harness to make the potential "hole" in the back, or the potential single, mis-routed chest strap, less of an issue, fall on deaf ears. It's like being Noah.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Aug 14, 2008, 5:23 AM)


Gato  (C License)

Aug 14, 2008, 9:16 AM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn't Bill Booth offer belly bands on the Vector III? I know he's been an advocate of them for a while, now. They used to be standard on the old B4s, weren't they?

IIRC, he's under the impression that, to most of us, belly bands are not cool, and we wouldn't use them. I'm not opposed to the idea, although I don't think my fat ass will ever fall out of a standard harness.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Aug 14, 2008, 9:32 AM
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Re: [Gato] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Most people tend to buy whatever is offered as standard equipment. Some people say the gear mfgrs just respond to the desires of the marketplace. I think that's a weak excuse, and hold gear designers and mfgrs, collectively, morally responsible for not putting out a standard, industry-wide design of sport harness that is safer.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 14, 2008, 10:39 AM
Post #49 of 116 (2033 views)
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Re: [Gato] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Belly bands are most helpful on larger rigs, to prevent the container from "washing" sideways in freefall. Which is why belly bands are standard on military freefall rigs and a few of the bigger student rigs (e.g. Telesis 3 from Rigging Innovations).

Belly bands reduce the risk of falling butt-first out of a harness by holding the hip joints/rings where they should be: covering your iliac crests.
When designing the Sigma student harness, Bill Booth learned that the best belly bands ride quite low, too low to press on the abdomen and too low to induce vomiting.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 14, 2008, 10:52 AM
Post #50 of 116 (2027 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

>and hold gear designers and mfgrs, collectively, morally responsible
>for not putting out a standard, industry-wide design of sport harness that
>is safer.

Eh, I don't know of any manufacturers that have steel cables to back up the nylon in their harnesses - even though harnesses have been damaged by battery acid in the past.

Is that a failing on their part? I don't think so, because people don't die by falling out of disintegrating harnesses. Likewise with the "hole" in the bottom of the harness. People generally don't fall out of sport rigs that way, and thus the current solution (the bungee mod) is sufficient. Most rigs _do_ come with that nowadays.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Aug 14, 2008, 12:42 PM
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Re: [billvon] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

That might address the hole in the bottom, which I realize hasn't caused many fatalities (it has caused a couple). I still wish the chest strap issue was dealt with in a more fail-safe fashion as part of standardized design.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Aug 14, 2008, 12:47 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 14, 2008, 2:17 PM
Post #52 of 116 (2066 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

> That might address the hole in the bottom, which I realize hasn't
>caused many fatalities (it has caused a couple.)

Which ones did it cause? (we're talking sport rigs here.)

>I still wish the chest strap issue was dealt with in a more fail-safe fashion
>as part of standardized design.

I think you can still get B-12's/quick ejectors on many rigs on the chest strap, so you still have options. Or go Winsor's route and just never disconnect it. (You can't misroute it if you never have to unroute it!)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Aug 14, 2008, 8:04 PM
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Re: [billvon] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

I was referring to the tandem accident. Not identical to a 1-person sport rig, but still emblematic of the issue.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 14, 2008, 10:24 PM
Post #54 of 116 (2024 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

>Not identical to a 1-person sport rig, but still emblematic of the issue.

I disagree. A tandem harness is nothing like a sport harness; a tandem is nothing like a sport skydive. They're different animals and require different gear with different design considerations.

A quick example. There have been several incidents over the past few years due to premature deployment bag releases on tandems. Should we therefore redesign sport rigs to try to prevent that problem? Perhaps add a secondary release that will keep the container closed even if the pin is extracted? Or would that be solving a nonexistent problem?


upndownshop  (D 23924)

Aug 16, 2008, 11:57 AM
Post #55 of 116 (1960 views)
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Re: [billvon] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
> I think you can still get B-12's/quick ejectors on many rigs on the chest strap, so you still have options. Or go Winsor's route and just never disconnect it. (You can't misroute it if you never have to unroute it!)

I know you can with a Javelin, but they highly discourage it. Had a request a few years ago. It was a jumper from the old days, used to the rounds and all. Once I asked him if he really wanted a B12 on his chest if he ever face planted it,he decided to save the $75.00 and stick with the standard set up.


aresye  (B 31421)

Aug 16, 2008, 8:33 PM
Post #56 of 116 (1901 views)
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Re: [upndownshop] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

The best mod to fix the chest strap misrouting issue is...







Take your time, look at the strap, and route it correctly.


BrianM  (D 661)

Aug 17, 2008, 11:14 AM
Post #57 of 116 (1871 views)
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Re: [aresye] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The best mod to fix the chest strap misrouting issue is...

Take your time, look at the strap, and route it correctly.

That, and look at everybody else's in the plane. I do on every jump.


chrismgtis  (B 32561)

Aug 18, 2008, 10:39 PM
Post #58 of 116 (1745 views)
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Re: [aresye] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The best mod to fix the chest strap misrouting issue is...



Take your time, look at the strap, and route it correctly.

I jerk my chest strap hard about 5 times before each jump. I'm paranoid.


RaXz  (Student)

Aug 19, 2008, 3:33 AM
Post #59 of 116 (1722 views)
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Re: [chrismgtis] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to fight the temptation to jerk on the chest strap of others, I don't wanna be a jerk, so I only watch. Tongue


skydiverek  (C 952)

Aug 19, 2008, 1:13 PM
Post #60 of 116 (1676 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Belly bands

Attached are the pictures of Vector 3 belly band.
Attachments: V3 belly band.jpg (89.2 KB)
  V3 belly band_2.jpg (67.2 KB)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Aug 19, 2008, 3:19 PM
Post #61 of 116 (1643 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Whoa, that looks extremely unstylish! OK, I take back everything I said.


CarloC  (D 252794)

Aug 19, 2008, 3:59 PM
Post #62 of 116 (1632 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

That looks very overkill and very uncomfortable too.Crazy

A little paranoid in my opnion. Tongue

Blue ones and stay safe!


Andy9o8  (D License)

Aug 19, 2008, 4:28 PM
Post #63 of 116 (1623 views)
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Re: [CarloC] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That looks very overkill and very uncomfortable too.Crazy

A little paranoid in my opnion. Tongue

Crazy
Sigh.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Aug 28, 2008, 1:12 PM
Post #64 of 116 (1525 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Belly bands

Attached are the pictures of Vector 3 belly band.

I like it.
Now I just wish I could afford a new rig...Wink

JW


dunderhead1  (B License)

Aug 28, 2008, 4:37 PM
Post #65 of 116 (1487 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Belly bands

Attached are the pictures of Vector 3 belly band.


the reserve handle looked ridiculous small, it should made much bigger


skydiverek  (C 952)

Aug 29, 2008, 10:13 AM
Post #66 of 116 (1435 views)
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Re: [dunderhead1] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the reserve handle looked ridiculous small, it should made much bigger

Looks like a standard size handle to me.


NickDG  (D 8904)

Aug 29, 2008, 10:59 AM
Post #67 of 116 (1422 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Whoa! That ripcord cable looks way way too short.

You'd better check it's not kinked up in the housing somewhere. There should be some slack, and the end of the cable and the swedge should extend below the ripcord handle a bit more.

If that is its true length it looks as if another jumper taking a hanging grip on your harness could open the reserve container . . .

NickD Smile


skydiverek  (C 952)

Aug 29, 2008, 11:03 AM
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Re: [NickDG] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Whoa! That ripcord cable looks way way too short.

You'd better check it's not kinked up in the housing somewhere. There should be some slack, and the end of the cable and the swedge should extend below the ripcord handle a bit more.

If that is its true length it looks as if another jumper taking a hanging grip on your harness could open the reserve container . . .

NickD Smile

The slack starts from the TOP part of the metal handle, not the bottom part (i.e. there is plenty of slack = everything that you see is in this particular photo IS the slack).


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 29, 2008, 11:27 AM
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Re: [billvon] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
> That might address the hole in the bottom, which I realize hasn't
>caused many fatalities (it has caused a couple.)

Which ones did it cause? (we're talking sport rigs here.)
An incident doesn't have to end in a fatality to make it of concern. There has been more than one sport jumper almost fall out of the back of a properly sized and adjusted sport harness. Hasn't there been an AFF fatality overseas due to this, although I heard the harness was a bit big? Valinda can take her rig off without undoing anything. That gives me pause.


chrismgtis  (B 32561)

Aug 29, 2008, 11:36 AM
Post #70 of 116 (1407 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Valinda can take her rig off without undoing anything. That gives me pause.

She's not a fatty like some of us. Laugh


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 29, 2008, 12:04 PM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

>An incident doesn't have to end in a fatality to make it of concern.

Agreed. A serious injury would certainly qualify as well, as would be someone who was saved from injury/death by a coincidence or by chance.

>Valinda can take her rig off without undoing anything.

?? So can I. I can get out of my seatbelt and my climbing harness without disconnecting anything as well. I don't see that as a problem.


humanflite  (D 99999)

Aug 29, 2008, 12:14 PM
Post #72 of 116 (1392 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Whoa, that looks extremely unstylish! OK, I take back everything I said.

So does falling out of your harness....

Regarding fatalities..
It wasnt a fatality for the student but it was for the French AFF instructor who died after he went below his hard deck in order to save her (her chest strap was undone)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 29, 2008, 12:15 PM
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Re: [humanflite] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

>It wasnt a fatality for the student but it was for the French AFF
>instructor who died after he went below his hard deck in order to save her
>(her chest strap was undone)

That would actually argue that the fear over falling out of a harness is more dangerous than the actual risk of falling out of a harness.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 29, 2008, 1:34 PM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Hasn't there been an AFF fatality overseas due to this, although I heard the harness was a bit big?

....................................................................

It happened in Nambia (South West Africa) around the turn of the century. A small female student was given a Naro Student rig with too large a harness. She fell out at opening time.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 29, 2008, 2:40 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

That was the one. Thanks.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 29, 2008, 2:46 PM
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Re: [billvon] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
or by chance.

>Valinda can take her rig off without undoing anything.

?? So can I. I can get out of my seatbelt and my climbing harness without disconnecting anything as well. I don't see that as a problem.
Unless you're doing freestyle or taking a hard opening in the wrong body position. Then it can be a problem.

Car seatbelts are crap, a huge compromise of comfort and convenience over safety. You won't see F-1 or Nascar using that inertial-locking-shoulder-and-lap crap. Try slipping out of a correctly adjusted 5-point harness. Tongue

Clinbing harnesses? I've got no experience there. But if sport harnesses are so great, why do we tie little pieces of string between little loops on the leeg straps?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 29, 2008, 3:34 PM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

>Unless you're doing freestyle or taking a hard opening in the wrong
>body position. Then it can be a problem.

It might indeed be a problem - but thus far has not been.

>Car seatbelts are crap.

You may think them crap, but they work.

>But if sport harnesses are so great, why do we tie little pieces of string
>between little loops on the leeg straps?

So the legstraps don't creep up your legs when you're sitflying.

Now take the opposite approach. Before those little pieces of string, people were still sitflying for decades. And yet no one fell out of their harnesses. Nowadays we have that "piece of string" (bungee actually) that keeps the legstraps where they're more comfy, and thus we have an improvement over the previous system, which still didn't have any problems.

This is not to say that you have to ignore the problem. If it bugs you, find a rig with a solid saddle (that's how they used to make them) and/or do the buttstrap thing. Get a rig with a belly band. Your choice. Personally I will tend to concern myself more with things like hard openings, main parachute malfunctions, cutaway system failures - things that have actually happened.


birdlike  (A License)

Aug 31, 2008, 12:55 AM
Post #78 of 116 (2530 views)
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Re: [billvon] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>But if sport harnesses are so great, why do we tie little pieces of string
>between little loops on the leeg straps?

So the legstraps don't creep up your legs when you're sitflying.

Which is exactly what used to happen to me until I finally got a little piece of elastic to tie on there!

It used to creep me out that the straps would reach my knees when I was in a sloppy, too-tucked sit-fly. Crazy I did not actually fear that forces were about to take the legs straps right up past my feet, but I did not like it, Sam-I-Am!

Now with my handy dandy elastic bandy (from Spishak), that doesn't happen anymore.


clustermagnet  (D License)

Sep 2, 2008, 1:34 PM
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There has been a good bit of discussion about how a jumper can fall out of a harness lately. Jan Meyer has an article about it, and PhreeZone used to have a video showing his attempt. I'm honest enough to admit that in my time in the sport I had never heard of this accidentally happening so I never gave it major concern. With the recent tragic loss of a tandem passenger and stories of actual accidents and close-calls that have happened on sport rigs, I thought it might help people in my shoes to actually see how easy it can be. So I made two quick videos that show how one could fall out of either 1) the "head hole" while in a track or while headdown, or 2) the "rear hole" while in a sit.

Background: My rig is second hand and thus doesn't fit me perfect. I am aware that my rig (especially the yoke) is a bit too big for me. I also have lost 30 lbs. since I got it. I have put ~400 jumps on this rig and have never had a problem. In each video, I make the straps very tight, just as I do when I jump. The main canopy has been removed because a fallout of the harness would most likely occur on deployment as the main was inflating (and thus out of the container).

Sitfly Video

Tracking/HeadDown Video


I just thought this might be good for awareness. Please keep all comments constructive.
the links dont work, does anyone have the latest video links?


NickDG  (D 8904)

Sep 2, 2008, 2:49 PM
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Re: [clustermagnet] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Links don't work . . .

NickD Smile


migliore  (D 28383)

Sep 2, 2008, 9:58 PM
Post #81 of 116 (2392 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Updated links...

http://video.google.com/...=6075652443880467365

http://video.google.com/...=5979072227420503131


(This post was edited by migliore on Sep 2, 2008, 9:59 PM)


NickDG  (D 8904)

Sep 3, 2008, 4:50 AM
Post #82 of 116 (2353 views)
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

What makes those vids is the subtle hand gestures you make after the rig comes off.

I always wondered what I do in freefall if that happened to me, now I know . . . Wink

NickD Smile


migliore  (D 28383)

Sep 3, 2008, 5:39 AM
Post #83 of 116 (2332 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't hate on my mad acting skills!


CarloC  (D 252794)

Sep 3, 2008, 6:28 AM
Post #84 of 116 (2321 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

LaughLaughLaugh


NickDG  (D 8904)

Sep 3, 2008, 6:48 AM
Post #85 of 116 (2318 views)
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, I watched the vids again, and I'm not entirely sure about this angle but here goes . . .

In freefall, and maybe without really thinking about it, we use our limbs and muscles to stay in the rig. In the video you are purposing using your limbs and muscles to try and come out of the rig. Also, and probably more so, the fact you're standing on the ground gives you some added leverage you won't have in freefall.

For an inverse example, and this may not be a great one, but some years ago on a two-way one of the jumpers left the aircraft without their leg straps on. And even with the other jumper trying to help, they couldn't manage to get them on. Running out of time the legstrap-less jumper had to resort to locking both arms together while the other jumper deployed the pilot chute. But the result was being stripped out of the rig on opening.

What I mean is, comparatively, even though some jumpers need to lean against something, it's easier to put your legstraps on, and do it alone, while on the ground. And that's because of the leverage.

On the other hand in actual freefall in a sit or head down position, if you had a premature deployment and an instant opening I could imagine being shot through either rig hole. But not only would you have to be in one of those positions and have a premature deployment, you'd also have to get an opening shock without first being pulled upright. And the chances of all three of those things occurring in succession is rather slim . . .

NickD Smile


dancy  (B License)

Oct 1, 2008, 10:02 AM
Post #86 of 116 (2189 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Laugh


jurgencamps  (D License)

Oct 2, 2008, 3:30 AM
Post #87 of 116 (2082 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...On the other hand in actual freefall in a sit or head down position, if you had a premature deployment and an instant opening I could imagine being shot through either rig hole. But not only would you have to be in one of those positions and have a premature deployment, you'd also have to get an opening shock without first being pulled upright. And the chances of all three of those things occurring in succession is rather slim . . .
NickD Smile

And do a test. Try to climb out of your gear while your are hanging in your harness. I did this test. I geared up, attached my harness with the 3-ring system to the hanging harness we use for student training.
I know that I have to break my arms (or shoulders) first.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Oct 2, 2008, 3:58 AM
Post #88 of 116 (2075 views)
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Re: [jurgencamps] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
...On the other hand in actual freefall in a sit or head down position, if you had a premature deployment and an instant opening I could imagine being shot through either rig hole. But not only would you have to be in one of those positions and have a premature deployment, you'd also have to get an opening shock without first being pulled upright. And the chances of all three of those things occurring in succession is rather slim . . .
NickD Smile

And do a test. Try to climb out of your gear while your are hanging in your harness. I did this test. I geared up, attached my harness with the 3-ring system to the hanging harness we use for student training.
I know that I have to break my arms (or shoulders) first.
Not really. Just set your leg strap loose than you can climb out if you don't have the bungee.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 2, 2008, 10:18 AM
Post #89 of 116 (1991 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

You'd be surprised how much your body can flex during an opening shock in actual FF, as compared to rigidly trying to re-create or "simulate" something on the ground.

As an example - a few weekends ago during a competition event that included doing some actual low-pass hop-n-pop exits, I actually got surprised by a SLAM opening (my canopy usually snivels like a SOB on H&P's!), and I can still see clearly even now, my feet ABOVE MY HEAD in front of me, with my body folded nearly 180' at the hips during the deployment - that I could NEVER, even remotely possibly re-create on the ground.

I'm just not otherwise, that flexible! Tongue


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Oct 2, 2008, 10:19 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 2, 2008, 10:23 AM
Post #90 of 116 (1985 views)
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Re: [jurgencamps] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

A ground test is probably useful, but still may or may not reveal absolutely ALL the potential iterations of your body position possibilities in freefall. I would have earlier thought like you too, as I do not (routinely) sit-fly either.

See my post just above this one.

Blues,
-Grant


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Oct 2, 2008, 10:32 AM
Post #91 of 116 (1976 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As an example - a few weekends ago during a competition event that included doing some actual low-pass hop-n-pop exits, I actually got surprised by a SLAM opening (my canopy usually snivels like a SOB on H&P's!), and I can still see clearly even now, my feet ABOVE MY HEAD in front of me, with my body folded nearly 180' at the hips during the deployment - that I could NEVER, even remotely possibly re-create on the ground.
What do you want to intruduce me? I got opening when I could kiss me knees.

I just climb in my gear when I take it, so I do know that works on the other way around too.


markbdaniels  (B License)

Oct 24, 2011, 11:07 AM
Post #92 of 116 (1542 views)
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post


Sorry to revive this thread again, but does anyone know where these vids are?


Marksman  (B 7)

Oct 25, 2011, 3:11 PM
Post #93 of 116 (1378 views)
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi all,

Pardon if someone already posted the link below... it also develops on the topic.

http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/fallout.html

blue skies!
Wink


migliore  (D 28383)

Oct 25, 2011, 8:14 PM
Post #94 of 116 (1320 views)
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Re: [markbdaniels] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Re-posted...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp0wmNoe6ic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxEcVoEZdVs

--Shane


markbdaniels  (B License)

Oct 26, 2011, 3:11 AM
Post #95 of 116 (1265 views)
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks dudes Smile


Divinfool  (C 40922)

Oct 27, 2011, 9:47 AM
Post #96 of 116 (1064 views)
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Re: [markbdaniels] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm amazed how simple that looked to come out of the harness..... Unsure


captain1976  (D 7183)

Oct 29, 2011, 9:36 PM
Post #97 of 116 (944 views)
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Re: [Divinfool] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm amazed how simple that looked to come out of the harness..... Unsure

A couple of months ago I pulled high to play with my canopy.

While attempting to sit back for the long ride, I noticed I went back a bit farther than I planned.

This bothered me and just last week I installed a similar strap.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 30, 2011, 12:11 AM
Post #98 of 116 (930 views)
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Re: [captain1976] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, Happy Halloween, this thread is back from the dead.

Vskydiver fell out of her harness once, hanging at 2 grand by her knees in the leg straps, just like on the monkey bars. She climbed back up into the rig. I know a lot of people say it can't happen. PM Vskydiver for the details. It'll make you think twice.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Oct 31, 2011, 2:19 PM
Post #99 of 116 (845 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... I can get out of my seatbelt ... without disconnecting anything as well. I don't see that as a problem. ...

Car seatbelts are crap, a huge compromise of comfort and convenience over safety. You won't see F-1 or Nascar using that inertial-locking-shoulder-and-lap crap. Try slipping out of a correctly adjusted 5-point harness. ...
"

.....................................................................

Car seat-belts had to be dumbed-down to match the intelligence of the average car driver.
Given the low intelligence of the average car driver, add fatigue, alcohol, distractions in the form of cell phones, pets, make-up, other traffic, pedestrians, traffic lights, road signs, etc. .... it is a miracle that so few car drivers die!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Oct 31, 2011, 2:25 PM
Post #100 of 116 (844 views)
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Re: [billvon] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... Before those little pieces of string, people were ... sitflying for decades. And yet no one fell out of their harnesses. ...
"

........................................................................

Maybe in France, but sit-flying only gained popularity - in Southern California - during the mid-1990s. Within a year or two, Rigging Innovations made "free-fly bungees" standard on new production.
Since then, I have retrofitted hundreds of "free-fly bungees" to older harnesses.


jhh166  (B License)

Oct 31, 2011, 4:11 PM
Post #101 of 116 (1376 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow, Happy Halloween, this thread is back from the dead.

Vskydiver fell out of her harness once, hanging at 2 grand by her knees in the leg straps, just like on the monkey bars. She climbed back up into the rig. I know a lot of people say it can't happen. PM Vskydiver for the details. It'll make you think twice.

If you do not mind could you elaborate what may have put her in that position ie. sitfly..hard opening? Thanks


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 31, 2011, 9:29 PM
Post #102 of 116 (1332 views)
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Re: [jhh166] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you do not mind could you elaborate what may have put her in that position ie. sitfly..hard opening? Thanks
Hard opening. She's not very big and very flexible. Her legs flew up, her butt slid out with her torso following. Pretty scary.

She's not the only person that has had that happen, but some people still think it's not possible.


jhh166  (B License)

Nov 3, 2011, 3:26 AM
Post #103 of 116 (1254 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If you do not mind could you elaborate what may have put her in that position ie. sitfly..hard opening? Thanks
Hard opening. She's not very big and very flexible. Her legs flew up, her butt slid out with her torso following. Pretty scary.

She's not the only person that has had that happen, but some people still think it's not possible.

Crazy. I am glad she was able to get back in the harness. I can see it possible, on one of my deployments I remember my feet being head level. I think I pitched down when I reached for the BOC and it whipped me to the position (folded at the waist with my feet in my face). I however was no where near coming out of the harness but I can see plausible.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Nov 3, 2011, 8:09 AM
Post #104 of 116 (1221 views)
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Re: [jhh166] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

That's why we emphasize the arch when you pull. It's not to keep you stable. It's to keep the harness from coming off. Tongue

(Disclaimer: I'm joking.)Smile


Marksman  (B 7)

Nov 8, 2011, 11:33 AM
Post #105 of 116 (1114 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

disclaimer!!! LaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 8, 2011, 12:51 PM
Post #106 of 116 (1077 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"
In reply to:
... I can get out of my seatbelt ... without disconnecting anything as well. I don't see that as a problem. ...

Car seatbelts are crap, a huge compromise of comfort and convenience over safety. You won't see F-1 or Nascar using that inertial-locking-shoulder-and-lap crap. Try slipping out of a correctly adjusted 5-point harness. ...
"

.....................................................................

Car seat-belts had to be dumbed-down to match the intelligence of the average car driver.
Given the low intelligence of the average car driver, add fatigue, alcohol, distractions in the form of cell phones, pets, make-up, other traffic, pedestrians, traffic lights, road signs, etc. .... it is a miracle that so few car drivers die!

A lot of cars now have pre-tensioners, so that they get cinched up if the airbags are fired. It is a very effective method of reducing injuries, as the slack in the belt is a very important factor in how far forward you'll get thrown/how hard you'll hit the wheel, etc. It should be standard equipment, but not yet.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Nov 8, 2011, 12:51 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 8, 2011, 12:55 PM
Post #107 of 116 (1074 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow, Happy Halloween, this thread is back from the dead.

Vskydiver fell out of her harness once, hanging at 2 grand by her knees in the leg straps, just like on the monkey bars. She climbed back up into the rig. I know a lot of people say it can't happen. PM Vskydiver for the details. It'll make you think twice.

Did that happen on a student rig or one made for her? If it was her rig, what was your countermeasure - did you add a solid (not just bungee) strap to go across the leg straps?


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Nov 8, 2011, 2:14 PM
Post #108 of 116 (1039 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Custom rig, very small backpack. She now has a non-stretch strap where many install bungees.


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 8, 2011, 4:12 PM
Post #109 of 116 (1025 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Custom rig, very small backpack. She now has a non-stretch strap where many install bungees.

The non-stretch strap is so much more useful than a bungee. Here's a repost of a good article from Jan Meyer on the subject and how to get such a strap made and applied to a rig with no sewing to the rig itself:

http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/fallout.html


jrjny  (A License)

Nov 8, 2011, 5:28 PM
Post #110 of 116 (1007 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe I'm missing something but what the heck is a little bungee going to actually accomplish? I have the thing and it's like a shoelace...how could that save my 'ass' from going through, literally.

Thanks,

Jeff


VTmotoMike08  (D 30399)

Nov 8, 2011, 5:45 PM
Post #111 of 116 (997 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe I'm missing something but what the heck is a little bungee going to actually accomplish? I have the thing and it's like a shoelace...how could that save my 'ass' from going through, literally.

Thanks,

Jeff

My understanding is that it keeps the properly adjusted leg straps from sliding towards your knees where you would be more likely to fall thru. Of course it is not a weight bearing piece, it just keeps everything in the right position.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 9, 2011, 10:06 AM
Post #112 of 116 (880 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe I'm missing something but what the heck is a little bungee going to actually accomplish? I have the thing and it's like a shoelace...how could that save my 'ass' from going through, literally.

Thanks,

Jeff

........................................................................

Flimsy little elastic bungees are designed to hold the leg pads in place (where your buttock cheek meets your leg) BEFORE they are loaded - during opening shock.
The alternative is leg straps sliping down - too low - before opening shock, then you are at risk of falling out and a little piece of stretchy bungee cord will make no difference.


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

Nov 19, 2011, 1:26 PM
Post #113 of 116 (767 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.chutingstar.com/newgear_en/swooper-belly-band.html

So by any chance would these be worth the cost for a newbie?


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 19, 2011, 1:28 PM
Post #114 of 116 (765 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
http://www.chutingstar.com/...oper-belly-band.html

So by any chance would these be worth the cost for a newbie?


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 19, 2011, 1:44 PM
Post #115 of 116 (760 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
http://www.chutingstar.com/newgear_en/swooper-belly-band.html

So by any chance would these be worth the cost for a newbie?

All that is old is new again.


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

Nov 21, 2011, 1:56 PM
Post #116 of 116 (655 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
http://www.chutingstar.com/newgear_en/swooper-belly-band.html

So by any chance would these be worth the cost for a newbie?

All that is old is new again.

uhhh? Crazy



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